Full episodes and transcripts available at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Come hang with Nick on TikTok http://www.tiktok.com/users/@clasonnick
Or subscribe on YouTube for his new e-book coming out soon! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g

SHOWNOTES
Follow Rob on TikTok at https://www.tiktok.com/@robshep

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be along here with you and I'm excited today to bring you a guest. And so, um, this, this is Rob Shepherd. Um, he is pastor at Next Level Church out in Virginia. And, uh, Rob and I connected, you'll hear a little bit about how we connected, uh, but we connected cause uh, we have a mutual, um, friend, coworker. I mean, it's his sister, um, who, uh, I worked with his sister at a church I worked at in Ohio. And, um, we came together through just like some circumstances of, uh, doing a thing for his nephew. Um, a kid that was in my, uh, student ministry for a while. So, um, we met and just kind of became friends on Facebook or whatever. And then recently connected, um, more on TikTok.

Nick Clason (00:56):
I saw just a bunch of what he was doing on TikTok and, uh, kind of got onto his account. And, uh, I told him last week, Hey, I am stealing all of your ideas, uh, for our student ministry account because we needed a little bit of a refresh, um, in our posting, uh, rhythm, I would say. Uh, we had, we had done this thing where we were all kind of in charge of a segment of our, our TikTok posting calendar. Uh, but my, my coworkers were just having a hard time staying up with it. They weren't and aren't as, uh, TikTok and, you know, creating of TikTok savvy. Um, they just didn't do it as often as I did. And so, uh, posting would take them longer and they would avoid doing it cuz they didn't want to do it. Um, and it would take 'em longer than they wanted to, all these things.

Nick Clason (01:46):
So, uh, I started seeing Rob's videos and he had tons of fun stuff with just his kids and little games and competitions, a minute to win at stuff. And, um, so I went to his profile. I stole a bunch of his ideas. We started doing a lot of his things and then I just reached out to him. I was like, bro, you should come on my podcast. And he's like, I would love to. So I'm excited to bring you this interview with Rob. Excited for you guys to get to meet, uh, him. He personally has a TikTok account that's really active. He has a lot of followers, a lot of viewers, a lot of action, a lot of traction. So if there's a new for you, um, he has a kind of a wealth of knowledge on what it takes to, uh, run, manage, and grow a TikTok account. So, without any further ado, here is my interview with Rob Shepherd. Hey Rob. How's it going?

Rob Shepherd (02:37):
Awesome, man. Thanks so much for having me. I'm honored.

Nick Clason (02:39):
Absolutely. Hey, give uh, all tens and tens of my listeners. Just a quick, uh, overview who you are, where you are, uh, to what you're up

Rob Shepherd (02:48):
So. Yeah, I'm, I'm Rob Shepherd. I'm the lead pastor at Next Level Church. It's a church plant that I started 10 years ago. Um, I'm an author. I've written three books. My fourth book will be coming out in 2023. I have a wife, Monica, we've been married for 22 years and we have twins. They're 11 and they're in the sixth grade.

Nick Clason (03:06):
Awesome. So, uh, you and I connected cause uh, uh, your nephew was in my youth ministry in Ohio. Yeah. Um, and we did this super fun thing that I preached about and then your sister actually took me up on where, uh, a bunch of different people kind of invested in, in his life. And so we had this kind of culminating moment, uh, and that's where, that's where you and I met and I think we became friends on Facebook or something like that. And so I, I get on TikTok, um, when I moved here to Texas because I, before that I was just using my ministry TikTok account. Sure, sure. And I figured like, oh, I should probably make my own since I can't keep using my old ministry's algorithm anymore. Um, and you know, of course TikTok does that thing where it's like, you might know this person. Yeah. And so that's, that's how I, uh, you know, found you on there through that, through some linked contact thing, which I keep telling them not to do that yet

Rob Shepherd (04:01):
Somehow. Yeah, me too.

Nick Clason (04:02):
Here we are.

Rob Shepherd (04:03):
Yeah, it's so weird.

Nick Clason (04:05):
It's sketchy or something. I don't know. That's how they're, they're learning all of our information. They're gonna take over our world

Rob Shepherd (04:10):
A hundred

Nick Clason (04:11):
Percent, but that's fine. It's okay. It's okay. Um, and so, actually, you know, Rob, I just started watching your videos cuz so much fun. Oh,

Rob Shepherd (04:21):
Thank

Nick Clason (04:21):
You. Um, yeah. And, and then of course as a youth pastor, I was like, I'm gonna steal all of these ideas, . Um, and we did, but, uh, tell me just a little bit, how did you end up on like, TikTok? Was it like just for fun or are you doing it for like, ministry reasons, purposes to get your author like information out there? Like what's your, what was kind of your reasoning behind all that?

Rob Shepherd (04:45):
Yeah, so a hundred percent it was 2020. The whole world shuts down . Um, and like I have more time on my hands than than normal. Um, cuz we're not having public services. We can't be in the office. Um, like literally everything is shut down. Yep. And I kept seeing people post TikTok on Facebook and Instagram and I was like, what is this? Like, I don't get it. Like, how do they know these dances? And like, , how, like, what I don't, I don't understand. Like, it, this app doesn't make any sense to me. So I downloaded it out of boredom. Okay. And the first, I mean, the first few times looking at it, I was like, this is a, this is an app for 12 year olds. Like, I'm not, you know, there's no way. Like, yeah, I'm just not interested. But then, you know, there was like a couple nights where I couldn't sleep or whatever, and I would just like, let me see this TikTok thing and, and I would get sucked in.

Rob Shepherd (05:39):
And then you start watching videos and you're like, why is it two in the morning? Like, yeah. What is happening here? Um, and so after about a week of just kind of stalking and watching videos, I was like, you know what? This looks like some fun. And so 2020 was stressful for a lot, lot of people. Mm-hmm. , um, as a lead pastor, navigating, shutting down church when to reopen, um, it was very stressful for me mm-hmm. . And so starting to make these videos was a creative outlet. So I just started making, um, literally just to have fun. Just something to get my mind off of the stress. And then one thing led to another and we got a couple followers and that's what happened.

Nick Clason (06:19):
And there we are. Yeah. So that's your, like, that's like your personal, like that was something that you just kind of did for fun. Yeah. Have you dove into it, uh, at like a ministry or church-wide level yet? Or is it mostly just something you're doing on your own?

Rob Shepherd (06:33):
Yeah, so, um, TikTok is interesting to me because if, if you start it like, like your youth group's, TikTok, you can gain a following because people that are gonna follow you are probably other youth pastors or churches or they're interested in it. Mm-hmm. , because I started, um, doing just silly like games and, and that kind of stuff. My out of, you know, my 157,000 followers, they don't give a rip about what I do. Right. Um, anytime I post personal things, videos, tank mm-hmm. and no one's like, oh, you know, um, there's a few times in lives, like any, anytime I go live, I I'll tell people, Hey, I am a pastor and um, you know, and you don't have to be a Christian to follow me, but, um, and you know, there'll be some people who will say, oh wow, that's interesting that you're a pastor. But like, I've posted about my books before. Nobody cares. Yeah. Um, posted about our church, nobody cares cuz I didn't start it as that ministry, the ones that have success on it. Start it with like, the intent of I'm gonna start it for ministry or, you know, books, selling books or, or whatever.

Nick Clason (07:38):
Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I, I, yeah, I've even noticed that too, you know, with my own, like, it's, the thing that the algorithm has done is like TikTok has absolutely changed the game on social media, right? Mm-hmm. , so like before a church would have a page or an Instagram account or whatever, and then they'd tell their, their church people come follow us. And then we would all just post announcements about like our church potluck and Yeah. Doing things like that. And now TikTok and subsequently reels on Instagram and Facebook, YouTube shorts, like they're all about just like discovering people that you've never discovered before. Yeah. Like, you know that on your homepage there's the following and the four uab and like I'm never in the following.

Rob Shepherd (08:25):
Yep. It

Nick Clason (08:26):
Only puts me there after I post a video and then I'm like, these are a lot of people I know. And then I'm like, oh, that's cuz I'm in the following section. And they just did that to me. Yeah. So it's, it's such a different, and so from a like a ministry standpoint, it's such a different mindset of like, what are we doing on here? Sure. And like, who are we trying to serve in a lot of ways. Sure. It'ss almost like a, it's less of like nurturing your own people and more of like trying to reach people, you know? Yeah. And is there merit to it? I don't know. It's so, so new. Yeah. And that's the thing. Sure. So

Rob Shepherd (08:57):
Yeah. I I think, oh, go ahead. Do you have a question? Nope. I don't wanna interrupt you. Go ahead. Yeah, I, I think to that point, um, so, you know, in Jesus' day and age, the gathering point would've been like a well mm-hmm. and it's where the people went mm-hmm. . And so we see at times Jesus would go to where the people are. He would go to the well, like, you wanna go and gather an audience. Well, for a lot of a long time the church has acted like our building is a well, but no one in the community is coming to our, well no one has. That's

Nick Clason (09:27):
Good. Yeah.

Rob Shepherd (09:27):
But where is everybody? They're at the well called TikTok. Mm-hmm. There's over a billion people on TikTok. Mm-hmm. Over a billion. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, I've had some success on social media, on, you know, Facebook or Instagram, but nothing like TikTok. Um, you have the greatest chance to reach people now. It's a lot of hard work. It's not a guarantee that you'll reach people, but you have a greater chance to reach people and influence people and be around them. And so my TikTok is not explicitly like, I'm not a Christian TikTok, um, but I will subtly try to, you know, I'll wear a a a t-shirt that says, you know, a Christian message on it or, um, you know, I'll try to highlight in kind of a subtle way to say like, I've got all these thousands of people watching, um, let me try to gain influence. It's a long game. It's, it's slow. It's, you know, it's not a, a quick, you know, thing, but that's where people are. So I wanna gather around them and try to gain influence with them.

Nick Clason (10:20):
Yeah, absolutely. Like I, and like I said, it's, you know, how, so someone's scrolling through, they stop on your video and then the next one they're onto some like, stupid trend or stupid dance. So yeah, I think there's the pushback, you know, from other people is gonna be like, well, are you really making a difference? Or, you know, whatever. Like, is that 32nd clip enough to like influence and change someone's life? And like I said earlier, I don't know, um, sure. But what I do know is that the, a the landscape of social media is changing. B the landscape of our culture post covid, gen Z and the digital mindset is completely shifting. So this is the, the direction everyone's headed. And I'm sure there'll be some adjustments and pivots along the way. But for the first time in like social media history, every major platform is all in on this style of video. And I think the unique position that churches find themselves in is that, uh, this actually lends itself very well to what pastors, speakers, church people do on a regular basis. We create and produce content on a weekly basis. So for the first time we can take snippets of what we're doing and re-broadcast it. And also for the first time we can do that basically across the four major platforms without any consequence. Cuz they're all sure they're all going all in on this, you know? Sure,

Rob Shepherd (11:40):
Sure.

Nick Clason (11:41):
So the thing, like, the thing that stood out to me about you, uh, was like just the amount of fun that you have on it. Right. And I think a lot of times in this conversation, it depends where you land, right. But especially if you're like a church trying to like do digital ministry, you feel this need and this pressure to like share this deep theological truth, um, on TikTok. And if you don't get millions and millions of views, like you're, you, you didn't do it. It wasn't sure. Beneficial, advantageous. Um, so what, like, what predicated for you? Just like going all in on like, just the jokes, the fun stuff, the games, the competitions. Like I just love watching your family, like just having a blast together. Yeah. You know, doing things.

Rob Shepherd (12:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, for us it was just really natural. It was, um, we like filming these type of things. Um, we, we like doing, uh, coming from a youth ministry background there, a lot of the stuff that I do is recycle games that I used to play with, you know, my students and Yeah. Now my, my kids are, you know, 11 years old, sixth grade. And so, uh, we recycle, uh, uh, a lot of that. But I will say bigger picture for me is that there are a lot of church circles where it, it, it is almost like, uh, it's almost like God doesn't have a sense of humor. Like Yeah. Everything has to be serious. And, and I think there is a seriousness and there is a, a reverence that we should have towards God. But if you read through the scriptures, there's, there's whole festivals that God told people to have.

Rob Shepherd (13:15):
Mm-hmm. And in our culture, we have lost, uh, no one looks to the church to have fun. No one looks to the church to have fun, like parties. Like, if you wanna have fun, go get drunk, go out to a club. Yeah. But like, why, why shouldn't we set the standard towards no. Like, we've got the greatest news in the world. If anyone should be joyful, it should be Christians. And so let's have, let's have some fun, um, and, and do and show people like, Hey, you can have a great time and you don't have to cuss. Um, you can have a great time. You don't have to be half naked. Uh, you can have a great time and, and you, you don't have to be drunk. Like you can have good, clean, wholesome, fun and do it in the name of Jesus.

Nick Clason (13:50):
Yeah. No, that's really good. So, uh, couple, I now just want to get like specific and ask some like, just kind of fun questions. So what is, what video, uh, have you posted on your TikTok that has gotten like the most traction, the most likes? The mo went the most viral.

Rob Shepherd (14:07):
Yeah. So, uh, so, um, uh, you know, I was on TikTok for, uh, I wanna say, so I got on in 2020. It's 2022. So going on two years, it'll be three years I guess next, next March or, um, so for my first year, um, I had decent success, but it was nothing crazy. Um, I gained, uh, in, in year one I got up to 10,000 followers. Um, but I never had a video that had a million views. I had a few that like, were close 800,000, 900,000, but I never hit a million. Um, year two, uh, it was the summer, uh, Olympics and my wife said, Hey, we should do an at-home Olympics competition with our family. And so we invited a couple friends over and just did like, almost minute to win it type games. Yeah. But we called it at Home Olympics.

Rob Shepherd (14:58):
And I did like eight of these videos. And, uh, most of them didn't do great, but like, one of 'em was like the fourth one, uh, it, it took about two or three weeks, but it, it hit over a million views. Yeah. Um, and that's when I was like, okay, people like watching us play these, these games. And so we started doing some more of those. And then, uh, by November of of that year, um, I, I posted a, um, there was this trend that kind of went around, uh, like imposter where you have like, uh, you know, three waters and one vinegar mm-hmm. , and, you know, people gotta, you gotta guess who, who drank the, the vinegar. Um, so we were like, Hey, that would be fun to do with our family. And when I was a youth pastor, um, years ago, I, I used to do this thing called Dr.

Rob Shepherd (15:45):
Dare, where I would trick the students. And so, uh, if you take, uh, like a, a tub of vanilla ice cream and you scoop out all the ice cream and you fill it with mayonnaise and then you freeze it, it scoops just like ice cream. Okay. So back when I was a youth pastor, I would say, Hey, we're gonna have a ice cream eating competition. And, you know, I'd get my two volunteers and I'd scoop it out and they would think they're eating two scoops of vanilla ice cream. But then I would say, ah, you know, Dr. Dare gotcha. This is mayonnaise. Let's see who can eat the most mayonnaise. And then, you know, set a 32nd timer and they have to eat the most. And so, um, I was thinking about this imposter thing. I was like, you know what, we could freeze, uh, mayonnaise and do three ice creams, one mayonnaise, um, and let's just, let's just do an imposter.

Rob Shepherd (16:26):
Yeah. Um, and so we did this imposter video and I closed my phone and we went out shopping and, uh, we were at Target and I was like, I told my wife, I said, Hey, can I, can I look at your phone real quick just to see, uh, I wanna see how our TikTok is doing. And, um, it was like an hour later and it had like 17,000 views. And I was like, wow, okay. That's, that's pretty crazy. Uh, by, by like, you know, that night, um, it was like 800,000 by the next day it was, uh, like up to 2 million. Yeah. Um, that video currently, I don't look at it, I, I've kind of lost track of it, but last I checked it was at like 59 million views. Wow. Um, and so it has gone, it like there's people that are speaking Chinese and German, like there's all sorts of languages that have hit on this video in the comments Yeah. In the comments . Yeah. But that, so that imposter one, um, we've, we've had multiple now that have gone over a million. We've had a few that have hit, uh, you know, 10 million, uh, 6 million. Uh, but the biggest was that imposter one with the mayonnaise and it, it's at like, I think 59 million.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Yeah. And like I was telling you this week, like we, we tried a couple year of those. Right. And so we've, uh, we've done a few of those like on our team. Yeah. Um, and so our first one hit this week and we had an event last night and it was just fun cuz there's a lot of people like kind of talking to us about it. Yeah. Like, I totally thought she had it, I didn't Yeah. Like, you know, all that type of stuff. And so I think, you know, sort of like my heartbeat, uh, behind this podcast right, is like, I don't think that, um, digital ministry only is necessarily the best way to approach reaching people. I think it can happen. Um, but I think it's difficult. I think Covid showed to us like some of the limitations of it a hundred percent.

Nick Clason (18:19):
However, like the completely reliant on, on, uh, in-person, um, without any sort of digital expression at all, um, is very much like, Hey, come, like you said, come to our gathering place once a week and then we'll see you next week. Right? Yeah. Like, people still live lives 367 other hours of their, their week. And so how do we show up in, in those spaces, in those dead sort of spaces? And like you said, where people are, they're online, they're, they're jumping on their phones. Um, oftentimes, let's be honest, they're jumping on their phones to be entertained or maybe inspired. Um, but they're not jumping on their phones to be reminded about the church potluck in two weeks. A hundred percent jump. They're jumping on their phones to watch something silly. Like, I don't know about you. Like me and my wife will just get on our phones after the kids go to bed and she'll be on hers, I'll be on mine and we'll share stuff to each other like across the couch.

Nick Clason (19:12):
Yeah. Like, Hey, did you watch that thing I just sent you? Um, or we'll, you know, I'll turn it and show it to her. And so I think that sort of archetype of just like fun, entertaining, um, your church can, can be that, you know, you can set that example, um, and do it, uh, just for fun. Like I said, if nothing else, not even necessarily to try and go viral. Um, sure. But for your people, it's a way to, to engage. And like I said, so one of the way, one of the things I'm doing is I'm taking all that TikTok stuff. I'm also putting it on reels. Yeah. But then I can use that, uh, on our, our Instagram feed or our Instagram stories, which is often we're more of our actual followers are coming across our content. Yeah. So like I shared that imposter video that we did, uh, but I shared it to our story and then I just put like a, uh, the poll question sticker, like, who do you think it was? Yeah. And let people vote, right? Yeah. And so it's just another kinda layer way to like engage with your people. So even if you're listening to this, you're like, I don't know, I don't know if my goal is to reach 12 million people, like you don't have to like, that doesn't mm-hmm. that doesn't have to be the end game or the end No. The end goal in all this, you know, so

Rob Shepherd (20:19):
Well, and I, I would say to that fact, if you go chasing views, TikTok will drive you crazy mm-hmm. . Um, because the videos that I've put a ton of time in and I'm like, this is great. We've edited this. Like I've spent so much, I scripted this out, they flop mm-hmm. , um, you know, and a video that you don't even think about. Like I, I had a video, we did a video, we, we do this thing for my kids' birthdays, for all our birthdays where we flip a birthday cake. Yeah. And, um, my daughter flipped hers and her, her facial reaction was so great cuz she didn't, she, she caught it upside down. And I posted that video on their birthday, which is March 30th. Um, it did nothing mm-hmm. Like literally did nothing. Two months later it went viral. Hmm. Um, and it's that 6 million views right now, but if you chase views, if you do something for the views, you'll be so disappointed.

Rob Shepherd (21:08):
Yeah. Or I, I would say for anyone listening this, um, you don't have to duplicate someone else's TikTok, be authentic to who you are. Do what, what interests you. My family likes doing these games. Yeah. So it's very authentic and real to us. But if you don't like doing those games, don't go chasing that. If you don't like dancing, don't do dances on TikTok. Like Yeah. Don't do that. There is a niche for almost or niche, however you say it. There is a, a, a niche for almost everyone. Yeah. Um, you've gotta find it and be consistent. And when it's authentic to you, you can find an audience. But it, it takes, it takes time and a lot of work.

Nick Clason (21:39):
Yeah. All right. So that, so then another question I have, so those are your most viral videos. Yeah. What's your favorite video? And maybe like you said it, you put a lot of time into it, effort into it, and it didn't, it didn't do anything like, but what's a, a favorite video or two that you've done that maybe didn't go viral, but you're like, yeah, this is really cool. I still really liked it.

Rob Shepherd (22:00):
Yeah. Um, so I might have like recency bias, but there's one that I filmed a few weeks ago, uh, with my kids and my son does not love being on camera. Um, my daughter will, will she, she's more of a little bit of a ham, so she'll, she'll jump on with me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but we did a video to, uh, uh, a sound, we, so we didn't create the sound. Um, but she is playing, um, she has wrapping paper rolls and she's hitting my head and it's making like the drum noise. And my son took a cardboard cutout that we have of elf and he puts it into the background so he's controlling that she can't see him, but it gave him something to do. And, uh, it was just the three of us that, that made it. And it was so fun to make. Yeah. Um, it has not taken off at all. Uh, and so first I posted it once and it, it, it did not take off. And so like a week later I posted it a second time just hoping it would like, kind of take off. It hasn't taken off either, but that was the, probably the most fun I've had. And, and one of the ones that I'm like, I love that cause I did it with my kids.

Nick Clason (22:59):
Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit like just nerdy kind of like strategy stuff with that. So yeah. Uh, talk about what you've seen in the algorithm and um, and views and whatnot about, you know, you said like re reposting it. So are you like deleting the original video or are you just never taking it back onto your feed to try and like catch catch that lottery ticket again? Yeah. Um, and like, how, how many times would you do that with a certain video? Would you do it more than two times? Um, or what have you done, you know, that you've seen work?

Rob Shepherd (23:35):
Yeah. So here's the thing about TikTok, what you said earlier is what almost everyone does. No one hangs out on the following. They hang out on the for you page. Yeah. So if, if your videos don't get on the for you page, people aren't seeing them over and over again mm-hmm. . And so it doesn't hurt you to repost something and just see like, Hey, did this, you know, did it flop because no one, you know, is the wrong time of day or whatever, or Hmm. You know, whatever. So it doesn't, it doesn't hurt you to repost. And if you'll notice the people that consistently go viral, they repost the same type of video over and over again. Yeah. It may have a new tweak to it, but once they find out what do people like, they just do that over and over again. And then eventually they'll come up with a new, you know, twist or whatever.

Rob Shepherd (24:19):
Um, but there's a family that I, I follow that they've got, you know, like 2 million followers and when I scroll through their page, like I go to their direct page, it's the same video once every four videos. There's like, they just repeat it over and over again. Yeah. Um, and so yeah. I, I think, I think go for it. If you, if you, it's not like Instagram where people will, will criticize you or say, I've already seen this or Facebook, uh, it's all reliant on the for you page. And so if it didn't go viral, probably no one saw it on the for you page. You just repost it again.

Nick Clason (24:52):
Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Man, that's so, that's so interesting to think about cuz we've been so conditioned by the curated feeds, you know? Yeah. And everything that Instagram and Facebook were like, it's just, it's an, it's a brand new day out there on social media. And, and the reason I can say that like confidently Yeah. Is cause every other platform is ripping TikTok off right now. Like mm-hmm. , every other platform is going all in Instagram about three months ago, converted every video to a reel. Yep. Um, YouTube tried shorts didn't work and they, they took it down and they're tweaking it and bringing it back. Not because they don't want to work. They, they did some stuff I think on their backend to promote it even more. So everyone is saying this is, this is the new wave. So it's it, but it's a new wave of thinking too. Right? Yeah. Um, yeah. So it's, I that's so, that's so crazy to think about. Um,

Rob Shepherd (25:49):
Yeah. And I, as far real quick, as far as taking, taking down a video, um, so I know Instagram ingrained in a lot of, especially teenagers, that if it doesn't have a certain amount of likes take it down. Um, cuz they're like mm-hmm. a ashamed of it or, or you know, whatever. Um, do not do that on TikTok. I think it is a massive mistake. Mm-hmm. Very few people are just scrolling your profile and give a rip about how your videos are doing. That's good. Um, but what happens is, especially now, cuz this year TikTok has converted itself to be more of a search engine. Mm-hmm. , it wants to be more like YouTube. So like I have videos from last Christmas games that we played that are going viral right now Mm. Because people are searching for Christmas games. Mm. And so, like, I had a video that had a few thousand views last year. Right Now it's, it's, I mean, it's got thousands upon thousands of views from this year, year a year later because people are now searching for Christmas games or, or, or whatever. Mm-hmm. So I, I don't delete, I don't delete anything. There's been a couple that I have privated or I've turned to like friends only mm-hmm. , um, you know, but, uh, I, for the most part, once it's out there, just like see what happens and it could be six months to a year and then it'll take off.

Nick Clason (27:02):
Yeah. That's so good too. Think about it, the, it's come in like a search engine, so churches, church leaders, like you can answer questions that people might search like Yep. Questions about God, about faith, about theology, about like, some deep existential things that, like

Rob Shepherd (27:21):
Marriage relationships

Nick Clason (27:21):
You're all going to be looking at. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you can show up in Yeah. In those searches. So that's good. Yeah. All right. So the last, just the last little thing I wanna touch on here before we we sign off is how do you personally, uh, not get sucked into the addict addictive side of social media? Like the fact that, you know, you can be chasing likes, views, like it's, I mean, it's scientifically proven that they're built, our smartphones are built to be like dopamine hits, which are the same things that like drugs, uh, or pornography give us, right? Yeah. So like, what are some just sort of personal guardrails or things that you do to protect yourself or your family or your screen time or those types of things as you're, um, also producing different and lots of content?

Rob Shepherd (28:10):
Yeah, yeah. You know, so I a hundred percent got sucked in, in, into that, um mm-hmm. . And, uh, I would say the, the first thing that really, uh, impacted me is when we first kind of started going viral. Um, I thought, you know, this is it. Like, and it was so nice. Every time I opened my phone I had 99 notifications and it was so cool. It was like, man, you know, people are loving it. But then after a couple months I hit a dead zone and my videos, everything I posted, it didn't matter. It just flopped and it messes with your head. It's like, well, what's wrong with me? Does my content stink now? And like, it's not the case. Like, I don't know what happens with the algorithm, but the algorithm giveth and it take it away. Like there are, there are just seasons where it's like, no matter what you post, no one's gonna see it.

Rob Shepherd (28:57):
No one's gonna care. Mm-hmm. . And then there's other seasons where like you could sneeze on, on camera and it's gonna go viral. And so, um, that kind of seasoned learning helped me say, okay, I, I don't need to, I need to get off my phone. I don't need to be obsessed with it cuz I can't control it. Mm-hmm. , once the video is posted, I can't control if it goes viral or not. And so typically when I post a video, I shut my phone off and I don't get on TikTok for a while. Um, and just kind of let it sit and then, you know, I'll, I'll open it later. Um, also try really hard, uh, for family time. Um, which the nice thing about making tos with my family is that we get to do something together. Yeah. Um, before they started making 'em, it was me by myself.

Rob Shepherd (29:39):
Yeah. And that, my wife and I, we had to have some hard conversations cuz it's like, you know, we're watching TV and I would go make a TikTok and it would only take 15, 20 minutes, but it's 15, 20 minutes away from them. Mm-hmm. now we make a lot together. And so that, that's also been, but yeah, trying to shut off the phone. Um, trying not to, to let it consume your, your mindset and it'll make you go crazy if you're, if you're looking for likes or looking for, how's this video doing mm-hmm. now I just post and, uh, just let the album do its thing. Yeah.

Nick Clason (30:09):
No, that's good. I think, I think it's just acknowledging like they are trying to suck you in. So Yeah. A know that and then b like as a social media creator, pastor, producer, whatever, ministry leader, just have this self-discipline to put it down, walk away. Yeah. Maintain that walkaway power. So yeah. All right, man, let us know, uh, where can people follow you on TikTok? Tell us about Yeah. Your book coming out, like where they can grab all that type of stuff.

Rob Shepherd (30:39):
Yeah, so, um, I am, uh, at Rob Shep on TikTok, uh, Instagram. It's at Rob underscore Shep. Um, Facebook, I'm Rob Shepherd. Um, so, and I'm on all those. Uh, I don't ever check Twitter, but you can find me on there too, . Um, but, uh, yeah, so TikTok is at Rob Shep. Um, new book will be out, uh, hopefully by February, um, February, March. And you'll be able to find it on Amazon. But it, uh, all my books are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere you go to buy books, especially online. Yeah. Um, you, they, you can get a copy of, of my book. And so I've had, uh, three books out. The first one's called, even if You Were Perfect, someone would Crucify You. The second one's called You Misspelled Christian, and the third one is called Kill the Jerk. And so, um, those are my three books. And then, uh, fourth one is about, uh, when offense knocks and about not getting so offended. So,

Nick Clason (31:31):
Mm. That's good. Love it. All right man. Well thanks so much for your time

Rob Shepherd (31:35):
During Yeah, thank you. Crazy

Nick Clason (31:36):
Busy Christmas week. Um, for sure. Appreciate you making some time for it. Talk about TikTok a little bit. Um, yeah, some fun stuff. So, and uh, yeah man, we'll talk to you next time.

Rob Shepherd (31:45):
All right, sounds good. Thanks for having me on.

Nick Clason (31:47):
Yeah. Later, bro.

Rob Shepherd (31:48):
All right.

Nick Clason (31:50):
Well man, I hope that you guys enjoyed that conversation. Uh, I know even as I was having the interview with him, I learned a couple of things and he made me think differently about a couple of things in managing, uh, my TikTok reels, YouTube shorts, all the different accounts that, um, are promoting short form videos. So I hope that was beneficial and advantageous for you. Hey, if this was helpful, go uh, share it with a friend. We're gonna be posting some clips of this over on my personal TikTok at Clason, Nick, uh, check that out. And here soon. Um, I will be dropping a video, um, I believe next week, um, at the start of the new year on the framework, um, for posting a TikTok. It's called, have I Ruined My TikTok account yet? A guide for posting a TikTok from Start to finish.

Nick Clason (32:38):
Uh, it's gonna be complete with an ebook, um, as well as a tutorial video. And so excited to have you guys check that out. You can head, uh, to the show notes hybrid ministry.xyz/ 0 2 4, uh, to subscribe to my YouTube channel and, uh, to join my TikTok follower list, if that's something that interests you, or if you just want transcript notes from the show. We provide transcripts for every single episode completely for free at zero cost to you. We hope that you find it beneficial and advantageous. And also, would you just do us a favor, share this podcast with a friend, subscribe, rate. All those things will be an incredible gift to us here in the weeks after the Christmas season. Um, our gift to you is to continue to deliver meaningful and useful content every Thursday. Um, and a gift back if you so desire would just be, uh, a rating.

Nick Clason (33:35):
You would love that so much. Just open your purple podcast app on your phone, give us a five star and, uh, that would be incredibly generous and we would thank you so much for that. So, um, like I said, anytime you need anything hybridministry.xyz, there's also a, um, articles tab there. We're gonna start posting some more articles and writings and things like that. So, um, that's where the ebook is gonna be found. So just check that out. That's so interest to you. But until next time, we'll talk to a happy New Year and see you in.

Follow along at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or on TikTok at https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick

TIMECODES
00:00-01:59 - Intro
01:59-10:46 - How do we approach this new wave of algorithim based on discoverability?
10:46-17:31 - How do we navigate boundaries with social media?
17:31-23:30 - The Best Church YouTube strategy for 2023 and beyond
23:30-24:48 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:02):
What is going on? Hybrid Ministry podcast. My name is Nick Clason. I am your host. Excited to be back with you again. In today's episode, I wanted to just touch on three different topics. Number one, how do we as content creators, as social media managers, as uh, church marketing, uh, aficionados, though none of us really probably went to school for church marketing. How do we handle the new phenomenon that we are in with a discoverability algorithm as opposed to a curated four year followers type algorithm that we used to experience or we were so accustomed to experiencing with Facebook and Instagram? The other thing I wanna look at is I wanna talk about how do we handle and navigate the fact that these, uh, phones and social media apps are so, uh, addicted, they literally mess with our brains. How do we navigate that? How do we handle that?

Nick Clason (01:02):
And is the means with which we are using to push out our content, is that the actual message? And what does that communicate to our church people? And then lastly, uh, I want to, I wanna lay up for you what I think to be the best small church and potentially even bigger than just small church YouTube strategy for churches in 2023. So let's get this thing started, but before we do, don't forget, like, subscribe. Um, you know what I switched over from, uh, focusing on my attention over on Twitter? We are now, um, at my personal Instagram, um, @ClasonNick, uh, on TikTok for, um, all the things that we have. Social media, also swing by hybridministry.xyz, which is the home of this podcast where you can find everything that you ever need, including show notes and transcripts. Those are there every single episode for you for free.

Nick Clason (01:56):
Let's get this thing started. So, how do we handle, how do we approach a discoverability algorithm? So the first thing you need to know is what is a discoverability algorithm? TikTok is the, um, is the platform that made this discoverability algorithm famous. You'll know if you're on TikTok, that there's a friends panel and there is a fyp or a four you panel. The reality is most of the content that you see on TikTok, it's probably done by people that you have discovered as opposed to people that you are actually friends with. What that means is the algorithm is smart and it understands that it knows who you interact with, what videos you watch the longest, which ones you share the most, which ones you like the most, which ones you save the most. And it highlights those. It indexes those and then it comes back and it feeds you more of that content.

Nick Clason (02:44):
It's honestly astonishing and bewildering and a little bit frightening how smart it is at knowing you and knowing me. So how do we as churches in 2022 and beyond handle, uh, approaching platforms with discoverability algorithms? Cuz here's the thing. You at the church might be thinking, well, that's fine, but I'm not on TikTok. The problem is every social platform, YouTube, Facebook, and now Instagram are going all in on short form video discoverability platforms in an attempt and in an effort to keep up with the phenomenon that is TikTok. So what do we do about that? Because, uh, you can choose to ignore it. And I would imagine that some churches are going to do that because, um, they might see TikTok is dangerous or it's perilous, or it's just another platform that they have to manage and they don't have the ability, effort, bandwidth to go in and make it happen.

Nick Clason (03:41):
But what do you do? Because honestly, it's a very different approach. Let's think about Facebook circa 2008. You would get people to like your page from your church, Hey, go like us on Facebook, click on notifications. And then what churches auto almost automatically did was they used and viewed social media as an extension of their communication strategy. So then churches, um, and organizations like churches got very, very, uh, complacent to just simply post announcements, Hey, come to the church potluck, Hey, come to the, the live nativity that we're having. Hey, come to the, uh, churchwide, you know, Frisbee golf championship. Yeah, I don't know, whatever. Right? And it's just announcement, announcement, announcement. Why? I think a couple of reasons. I think number one, um, the, the whirlwind is fierce in churches, you got an event once a week that you are hosting and pulling off.

Nick Clason (04:36):
That's not to mention any of the special events that you have all throughout the year. And so it can feel like you're in the event planning and facility rental or facility usage environment or, or space. And so those things are, um, just fierce. They're just coming at you hot every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. And so then therefore, as opposed to crafting and curating a tailor made for you social media, um, first strategy, it's just like, oh, the Johnson said they didn't know about the Frisbee golf tournament that might they follow us on Facebook. I know that you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna post an announcement, make sure I never miss an announcement. Here's the thing. The reality is those aren't the type of fees that we have anymore. If you as a page want to get seen, in most cases, you're gonna have to pay, and that's gonna be a sponsored thing.

Nick Clason (05:28):
It's advertisement at that point. So, uh, and you can't do that as a church if you have the budget dollars to do it. And it's advantageous to you to get more people to the Fri be golf tournament. But here's what I would argue. If you are going to start paying, um, then, then what you're looking to do is you are looking to reach a unique audience. And that's the thing that this discoverability, this fy p this four you type thing that TikTok has made famous but has since been adopted by all these other platforms. Um, that is what you have the opportunity to do. You have an opportunity to reach a different audience than those who already follow you. So what you need to know is, number one, uh, it may not be the most advantageous for you to go into your TikTok and just continue to post a video announcements from your church to the things that are aimed at your inside people.

Nick Clason (06:19):
You're gonna wanna post things. If you do, do any sort of announcement type things, um, that are hopefully able for other people that do not go to your church to discover it, to find it, and to hopefully then take a, a next step, an action step towards you or towards your church. One of the other things that makes it fun is that TikTok is all about trends. And so one of the best ways to get discovered is show up in people's FY P is do the things that are already popular on TikTok. And so grab a trend and, and, and put your church event kind of stamp on that thing. If you do want more people at the Frisbee golf tournament, then go on, find what songs are viral, find what trends are happening a lot, how do you do that? Spend time on there.

Nick Clason (07:04):
And if you spend a little bit of time on there as a consumer, um, all you gotta do is just click save, save, save, save, save. Then they'll save onto your profile, whether that be your church profile or your individual profile. Either way, you can kind of go back and create an archived kinda library of things that you don't want to forget. Then use those throughout the week as you're posting. But here's the other thing, beyond just like announcements or beyond just like events, is you now have the opportunity to sit and speak into a camera and broadcast the message of Jesus to those around you. Now, you might be thinking like, that's not a very advantageous strategy because I'm a church located in the local demographic, and I don't want to just reach people that are miles and miles away from my church and will never have the opportunity to attend.

Nick Clason (07:48):
I get that. One thing that's actually really cool that we've discovered about the TikTok algorithm is it actually does prioritize and highlight a local geographical spreading. It's a little bit like a bullseye, and so it'll pump it out to people that follow you first, and if it performs well, it'll pump it out to people in your local geographical region. And then a little bit further and a little bit further, and finally a little bit further can tell you're like all the way viral. If you're obviously all the way viral, it's not, it's gonna be reaching people yes, that are far away from your church, but know that those first couple of layers are a little bit more like localized to where your environment is. And so as we are pro uh, producing and putting more content out on these platforms, I just wanna encourage you to think a little bit differently, think less about the Johnsons who missed the announcement for the Frisbee golf tournament, and be thinking about people who may be far from God, who may not have a faith background just yet.

Nick Clason (08:42):
And how can your church help spread and share the message and hope that's found in Jesus through a simple means and a simple unpolished not, uh, super well produced or super organized selfie style cell phone based video that honestly doesn't take that long for you to do. The opportunity is amazing. I'll just say anecdotally speaking, I started doing this stupid thing on my TikTok where I try and get, um, 2000 total touchdowns from, uh, players who played in the nfl. So I saw a guy do it, and it's got this filter where it puts a team and they cycle through the teams. They go on my forehead and it stops. And then I pick a player, any player that ever played for that franchise, and then I go and I like look up how many total touchdowns they've ever had in their career. My goal is with two quarterback slots, two running back slots, three receiver slots, and two tight end slots to be able, uh, to, to come up with 2000 touchdowns.

Nick Clason (09:39):
It's honestly quite hard. And really, like you have to, you have to get the heaviest hitters, like the top of the quarterback position, top of the running back, top of the receiver to even ever get there. I've done the math, like, is this ever gonna be possible? But those videos have gone freaking bananas, like, I don't understand it. And more and more and more and more and more people are following me and, and like coming into contact with my content. And so now I'm like, Hey, wait a minute. Like now there's a little bit of an audience here. So what if I use this to start helping show, push, promote, and talk about this hybrid ministry digital ministry type of ID idea? And so it's just so fascinating to see how that algorithm works. Like once something catches, it catches and you have absolutely no rhyme or reason or understanding of why that might be the case, but if it does, it does. And so, uh, don't get discouraged. Keep producing, keep saying faithful. Um, and eventually something's gonna pop. And um, it, it's never gonna be the thing that you expect it to be, but once something does, then the things that you do want pushed the things that you do wanna put on your channel, uh, those will become more and more and more accessible, findable, adaptable to your audience.

Nick Clason (10:48):
All right, so what do we do? Uh, with the fact that we, uh, know that our cell phones, we know that our devices are smart technologies are literally flooding our brains with dopamine every single time that we open unlock, um, and light our brains up with just this hit of like, Hey, this is, this is a good thing. And how do we handle that? I wanna approach this on two fronts. Number one, how do we personally handle that? And then number two, um, what does it communicate to the people that go to our church that follow us, that we're trying to promote good, solid, um, healthy practices, not just spiritually healthy, but but physically healthy and emotionally healthy and, um, you know, healthy, uh, like purity wise, like all those types of things. Like how do we handle that is the means. TikTok, for example, probably first and foremost, which has a very addictive, uh, sort of, um, framework built into it.

Nick Clason (11:46):
Does that communicate something that we don't really want to be getting behind or that we want to get, um, that we wanna be, be promoting, uh, to the people that follow us? Well, first and foremost, you need to know, right? That like, that decision lies squarely on a couple people's shoulders, your own that your own personal convictions, um, need to be kinda weighed out and, and challenged, I would say. And also if you go to a church where it's very much frowned upon or you've even been told not to, um, you know, en engage in that sort of platform, um, then those things are gonna kind of be done. Like for you, those decisions have been made for you, especially if it's done at the church level. Um, but how do we personally handle it? I would, I would say that, um, it's probably pretty, uh, tempting to spend just a lot of time on your cell phone, uh, because you are the social media content person.

Nick Clason (12:42):
And so what are the personal boundaries that you need to put in place for that? So, um, just this week, uh, I got a, I got a new phone recently. A couple of things I've tried. I have a Google Pixel, uh, pro seven and every night, 10 o'clock, I turn my phone to a nighttime mode and it turns everything gray, which is an absolutely maddening thing to have happen when you're on your phone and all of a sudden it just flips to gray. But it does, it turns off all that, all that blue light stuff, right, that we know keeps us awake, that keeps our brains kind of like firing and stuff like that. And it hopefully calms it down. It also to me sort of signals like, yo, I start to wind, it's time to start to wind down, you know? Um, and, and it is not an enjoyable thing to look at my phone when it's gray.

Nick Clason (13:26):
The other thing I did was I put timers on certain apps, apps that I was spending, um, more time than I wanted to. You know, you get the screen time report or whatever, so you can put timers now on apps. And so as my, as, uh, in my ministry, I'm the primary content person, so I need to have those social media apps on my phone. Um, at least right now, unless, you know, I get a phone that's purchased only for the church or whatever, but like for right now, I need those on my phone, but I'm only limiting myself. It's like a half an hour a day because, uh, I can get everything I need. I can find content in the future and I can even spend a little bit of time like personally perusing social media. But if I'm on longer than an hour, cuz honestly, um, Instagram a half an hour and TikTok a half an hour, that adds up to an hour.

Nick Clason (14:10):
That's, that's a good chunk of my day, honestly, probably more than I need it to be, you know? Um, and so I may even evaluate that even after talking into this podcast here and, and back that down a little bit. But here's the thing, the reality is this, is that there are tools built into the phones and the devices that, um, that will help you maintain those boundaries. What, what then it really comes down to where the rubber really does meet the road is are you going to honor the, your own boundaries that you at one point in time set for yourself? Or are you gonna break them? Because you can of course go in and change the time or turn it off, snooze it, whatever. Um, but I would challenge you, I would challenge you to do that because we know that, um, it is not better for us to be people that are reliant upon technology.

Nick Clason (14:57):
Technology is a tool. And I would argue that, um, I'm very passionate about this hybrid, um, approach, this digital ministry sort of, um, phenomenon. But the reality is this is, it is simply a tool to share the message and hope of Jesus. And that's it. And if it is abused, then that is, that's not obviously the goal. And so, uh, it's simply a tool. It's simply a vehicle. And you know what? One day there's gonna be something that's more effective. Back when the Apostle Paul was writing the method and the means were letter writing, nowadays we don't really write letters. It would not be that effective for me to write a letter to a 15 year old to try and tell them about the gospel of Jesus. But it might be effective for me to post a 5, 10, 15 second, uh, video that talks about Jesus that they can, um, check out and that we then give them another kind of opportunity to then take a next step and to learn and dive deeper into the message and hope that's found in Jesus.

Nick Clason (15:49):
And so, uh, then that leads me to the next question is the means the message. And I think, yeah, that is a dangerous and potentially very slippery slope. And that's again, something that you have to sort of navigate and wrestle to the ground at your own personal context in which you serve. But if we are wanting to reach people and if we are using this platform to reach people, is it a tool that can be harnessed for good? Absolutely. It absolutely can be used and harnessed for good. Is there evil in it? Sure. Is there bad stuff that you can find on the internet? Absolutely. Is there, uh, evil, evil and and danger when you do, uh, an overnight lock in with a bunch of teenagers and the potential risk for promiscuity and misbehavior and drugs, alcohol and stuff rises also? Yeah. Is it dangerous to get in the car every day and drive to work?

Nick Clason (16:44):
Yeah, it is, right? Like, so there are dangers and so you personally need to be smart. You need to model good digital hygiene. And I would also argue that we should be teaching our teenagers how to do that as well. We should be using that and viewing that as a discipleship moment to help craft and shape them. Like, Hey, how would Jesus handle technology? And um, I think he, I think he would, I think he would use it to exalt and glorify God the father. And honestly, that's what I want to do as well. But as I'm doing that, I don't wanna lose myself. I don't want to become addicted. Um, and I know, like I said, I just got a new phone. I know how addicting it has become. And so that's why I wanna put in more safeguards, more practices for me, uh, to navigate and handle those things well.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Or I wanna talk about the best church YouTube strategy that I can think of. If you don't wanna go all out on a bunch of crazy gear, um, I would recommend this. I would recommend, and I talked about this a couple episodes ago, but I would recommend pre-filing your YouTube, um, your message content. So everything that you deliver every single week, sit down, get in front of the camera that is on the back of your cell phone that is sitting in your pocket right now that you're probably using to listen to or watch this video, okay? And then I would buy one, one primary piece of equipment that you need to get this thing started. A road video mic, m e c usbc, directional microphone for smartphones. Now, if you don't have a USBC connection, then just google the connection that you do have on your Apple iPhone pot, probably because you don't have an Android.

Nick Clason (18:24):
Um, and use that shotgun mic in a controlled environment to have someone sit down in front of a set that looks nice, that has some decent lighting. I guess another, uh, potential piece of equipment that you may need is, um, a tripod to hold your phone up to aim at you or whatever, but prepare your content that you're gonna preach and prepare and teach in front of your congregants, whether it be adult students, whatever your context and deliver it before you get up on the stage to deliver it to the live room. Why? Well, two things. Number one, unless you already have the infrastructure for live streaming, then if you do, I would ignore this part, but if you do not, which, um, I talk to a lot of youth pastors who their churches may be live streaming, but they themselves are not live streaming.

Nick Clason (19:10):
And I would argue that if there is a demographic that's worth, uh, putting content out to it is teenagers, it's Gen Z and soon to be, by the way, cuz they're right on the cusp. Generation alpha, okay? And so we should be trying to reach the natives, our, our teenagers, gen Z Alfa in their native tongue. And that's video that's digital. Now the thing is, you, if you're a youth pastor specifically, you're probably not meeting in the main room where you have access to all the live broadcast equipment. And if you are a church that you are the main pastor and you don't have that equipment yet, then I don't think that that's an issue. Cuz here's a couple of things that we know. The best performing YouTube videos fall somewhere between 12 and 18 minutes. So if you get up and you preach a 35 minute sermon and you post that entire thing to YouTube, that's not exactly, um, optimal for YouTube.

Nick Clason (20:03):
And so what you can do when you pre-fill is you can adapt it so that what you're preaching, you're still preaching the same content, but you're pairing it down so that it fits into that 12 to 18 minute video. It's gonna perform best on YouTube that way. The other thing that it does is it lets you, um, focus on the camera. If you're watching this right now, you're watching me focus directly into the camera. I'm not preaching to a room of people behind me. You have no idea that behind me is, um, a giant bean bag and a chair and a dresser and a baby's crib. Um, that's not what you see, right? You're seeing what I want you to see, which is myself and the chair that I'm sitting in. The reality is that you can do all that. You can create a set, you can create something that looks kind of nice, something that's gonna catch a watcher's eye on, on a platform like YouTube.

Nick Clason (20:47):
And you can speak directly into the camera when you just rip off your live stream, you're catering to the room. I remember when this happened to me one time, I was preaching a large, uh, multi megachurch from the broadcast location. And um, after I got done, the feedback I got was, Hey, pay more attention to the camera, right? Like, when I got up there, my natural propensity was to preach to the people in the room, which is what most of our natural propensities are, but they had a camera in the back and they were live streaming it. And so they're like, don't forget, you need to look down the barrel of that camera. That wasn't a natural experience for me. And if you're gonna start live streaming, that's probably also not a very natural experience for you, I would argue. Um, or at least I, I would make the bet that that's the case, right?

Nick Clason (21:32):
And so what I want to propose and what I want to promote is I want you to just consider and think about what would it look like if you pre-filed your stuff. It would help you, uh, get it to the time and length that it needs to be to perform best on YouTube. And then it would also, uh, help you focus on the audience that's right there on the other side of the camera. The third thing that it does, and this is just um, something that I've, I've personally been experiencing learning and using is, um, it helps me get familiar with my content. So by the time I do step foot on the stage, I'm actually much more comfortable with the content cuz I've already dealt with it. I've already been in it, I've already delivered it one time. Um, and so then that way all I need to do is get up in and deliver it again, live to the room.

Nick Clason (22:18):
But I'm not as, um, I'm not as tied to my notes like I maybe would be otherwise because I've gone through 'em. I'm aware I, you know, I mean like, I get the flow, I get the rhythm. And so if you're a primary communicator, you, you probably understand that being more familiar with your notes than, as opposed to being less familiar. And I mean, a lot of pastors, a lot of good preachers, they do sit down, they do spend some time pouring over their notes before they get up live on the the stage. Why not have just one of those times? It's you doing it to a camera. So then what that does with the, the nice microphone, it gives you good audio, decent video. Even if you don't have the most up to date smartphone. There's a lot of really, really good, um, there's a lot of really, really good, uh, camera phones out there that take really good videos.

Nick Clason (23:02):
And here's the thing, the reality is this video's probably gonna be consumed on a phone, you know what I mean? So, uh, you're shooting it on a phone to another phone, I don't think that's gonna be a gigantic deal. Um, don't let your creative department tell you otherwise. Uh, and then, uh, what that does is that then also helps you as a communicator get another shot at it. So that's my personal right now. Favorite YouTube strategy for 2022, 2023 and beyond. Hey, once again, thank you guys so much for hanging out on this episode. I cannot believe we are into the twenties already. Uh, had had fun having Kerry on the last couple. Um, been fun having a couple guests. Probably gonna try to get a few more guests here and there, but love having this, love having these conversations. Appreciate you all man. It would be amazing if you could give us a, like a rating, um, subscribe so that you get this delivered for free every time to your inbox. Check us out at hybrid ministry, um, on, uh, our hybridministry.xyz on website. Like I said at the top of the show, we have free transcripts that we provide to you for every single episode. Hopefully you find those, um, helpful. Go check them out. And until next time, talk to you later. See you.

Follow us on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or get FREE transcripts at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or find more written content like this from Nick at http://www.myyouthmin.com

TIMECODES
00:00-00:36 - Intro
00:36-07:22 - The lessons I've learned from starting a YouTube channel during COVID
07:22-10:31 - Why start with YouTube?
10:31-13:13 - How to get indexed in searches on YouTube
13:13-16:26 - Ministry Implications
16:26-20:36 - YouTube Best Practices
20:36-22:09 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? And welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Excited to be with you today. I am Nick Clason, your host, and today I wanted to talk about YouTube, and I actually wanted to talk about why I think it is useful for churches to quit live streaming their sermons. Now, hear me out. Hear me out. Before I dive into all that, let me just get a couple of things off the bat here said. So first and foremost, I wanna talk about YouTube. I don't like to talk about things on this show that I don't have a lot of experience with. And so today is an exception because I have almost zero experience with YouTube. And so for you to understand why and why and the history and everything like that, I just want to give a quick overview. So the church that I most recently served at, not where I am now, but where I most recently before here served at, had a almost 600 YouTube subscriber channel and over 300 or something like that, videos published on it.

Nick Clason (01:22):
The reason for that being that we started our YouTube channel and our YouTube show, the first day of Covid. And so our YouTube channel and strategy was primarily a digital version of what we would do if we were in the room. So we would think, let's do a game. And in our defense, I think what we did game wise and announcement wise and host wise was a little more YouTube centric than just simply throwing a camera in the back of the room and us pretending there were students there. But instead we were doing it a live stream. So what I mean by that is we built a studio and instead of a game, a screen game or something, we would do a segment. And it was almost like competition or challenge based. So I mean, if you think Mr. Beast or any of those big YouTubers, it was things like that.

Nick Clason (02:27):
So we were trying to think outside the box and trying to morph and do student ministry in a YouTube sort of way. One of the things that I think shot us in the foot was, first of all, we did it in a pinch. So we did it immediately and we pivoted very fast. And what we did and what we created, I personally was very proud of. But all that being said, once Covid began to run its course and things were over and opening a little bit more, people were looking for an in-person experience. And so what we were producing online was really no longer fulfilling the need that it needed to. So it probably needed an adjustment, and we started to make those adjustments. And what I mean by that is once Covid was over and kids were not stuck in their room, they're probably not that interested in our little segment or our little trivia game that we're playing or whatever on the screen.

Nick Clason (03:29):
But I do think that we had tons of formidable and useful spiritual content sermons, messages, whatever and whatnot that were totally useful. The problem was we did it in a full, long form show, so to speak. And so just youth group games and announcements and worship and all those things led into the message. And so you didn't get to the message until about 16 minutes on the actual YouTube thing. Typically the shows around 30 minutes or so. And so it was about half stuff and half a message. You get it If you're programming in the room, it's exactly what you would think as far as format wise, okay? And all of that. I was at a multi-site megachurch. All of that was handled by a creative team, a video editor, an audio producer, our tech department handled that, handled, uploading, posting, making it live, all those things.

Nick Clason (04:29):
And so I helped produce the content. I helped think through some of the philosophy and the strategy of it, but I was not boots on the ground in the weeds, hands on with doing, posting all the YouTube content and growing the channel. And in a lot of ways, the 600 something subs subscribers were a response to what happened during Covid, right? Everyone was subscribing to YouTube channels. Everyone that called our church home, parents, students alike, they subscribing to our channel. All right? So now fast forward to where I am now, and I'm at a little bit smaller church. We got a team of three, but we have around the same student count, or slightly more than the campus that I was at. And so we have a pretty frequent schedule Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. So every three days, there's something that we need to be thinking for, planning for, and prepping for.

Nick Clason (05:26):
Not to mention, the entire team of where I'm at is completely brand new. And so we are basically building something from the ground up. There was some stuff in place before and whatever and whatnot. But the reality is we're starting from the ground up. One of the things that we're starting from the ground up, we're continuing on with the Wednesday meeting times, Sunday meeting times, but we're launching and fleshing out a completely digital strategy. And so with all that being said, I wanna just give that caveat to this is my experience with YouTube. I have been very involved in the production of YouTube content. I've learned a lot of things, some dos and don'ts and whatevers and whatnots. But also we are at the church of, we are gonna be changing our name here in January. And so I actually secured the YouTube channel for our future name of our student ministry, which is still a secret to a lot of people.

Nick Clason (06:28):
So because of that, I have not started posting things to YouTube. What I have started doing is I have started beta testing our YouTube strategy more on a video filming and editing side of things. Is this a sustainable and scalable process that I can continue to implement beyond on a week to week type basis? And so I've been practicing some things, and so I think I feel pretty good about the workflow and rhythm to be able to pull some of these things off. And so I'm excited about launching a YouTube channel and account in January knowing that I'll be able to replicate what I've been doing. So that's sort the background and the history of at least my personal experience with YouTube. So why start with YouTube? Alright, I think YouTube is, is actually a really unique social media platform. It's the only one of its kind in the category of Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube is owned by Google, and it's the only social media platform in that category of those kind of core FI four or five that is owned by Google.

Nick Clason (07:52):
So you got Google, you got Meta, and then you got TikTok, who's sort of like the third player, the owner there in that, right? You've probably heard this before, but YouTube is actually widely considered by many to be the second largest search engine in the world behind only Google. Some if you get real nitty gritty with it, some actually say it's not the second largest, it's the third largest because Google Images is technically larger. Bottom line, all three, Google search, Google images and YouTube are owned by the same parent company, Google. And regardless of that, right? YouTube is a search engine. And so who among us has not installed a light fixture from the help of a friendly person who posted a YouTube tutorial on YouTube for us to watch and consume and use, Okay? And because it's a search engine, I think it's actually a pretty strategic advantage that can be used by us as pastors and ministry leaders.

Nick Clason (08:55):
Because if you think about it, when you search for a video, right? Search more how to or think how to fix, how to answer, how to do this, how to navigate this. So, or challenge us to think YouTubers rather than pastors or speakers. And I think that was one of our number one Achilles heels in where I was before. We were thinking YouTubers in a lot of ways, but in our, for example, and I'll get to this in a minute, but in our titling and in our thumbnails, we were treating this as series, the series Jesus series, Part three, March 1st. That's not a compelling, in captivating title for our audience who is with us every week and just wants to get on there and watch something on demand that may be helpful. But to someone who's gonna organically come across our YouTube content, that doesn't explain anything about what's in the video.

Nick Clason (09:59):
So why is live streaming problematic particularly? And full disclosure, I'm a student pastor. And so if you're watching this in a senior pastor and your church has good cameras, good audio equipment, good lighting to fully embrace a live streaming strategy, then by all means continue to do that. But if you're a youth pastor, I would not necessarily recommend building the gear, the switcher, the infrastructure of live streaming. All right, So let's talk about watch times. Cause this plays into it. According to a backlink.dot com, they surveyed and looked at 1.3 million YouTube videos to try and better understand the YouTube search feature and algorithm. What they determined was that longer videos significantly outperform shorter videos. And the average length of a first page YouTube video that's beneficial and helpful is 14 minutes and 50 seconds. All right? So you need to understand that the way that YouTube indexes and categorizes their videos is a combination of two things.

Nick Clason (11:15):
Overall, watch time paired with average percentage viewed. And so it turns out that videos in the 14 to 16 minute range actually index really well. In fact, those are the highest ones on search. There are other factors of things that help increase watch times, such as the hook or the intro. All right, So let's just think in the land of sermon delivering a sermon, Okay? I want you to just rank these two scenarios. Scenario number one. Hey everybody, welcome back. Real quick before I dive into tonight's message, I wanna remind you about the Churchwide Bake sales. It's coming up on Sunday, and if you want to earn money toward the mission trip, it is required that you be in attendance. If for some reason you can't make it, just be sure to talk to me afterwards. All right? Now, last week when we were in part three of our series, Jesus, we were reminded that Jesus was bonded together with his disciples because of their love.

Nick Clason (12:14):
And so tonight, what I wanna focus on in part four is what happens after the death burial and then ultimately resurrection of Jesus, right? That's scenario number one. That's you preaching to your congregation, your students, the people that call your church home. Let's talk about scenario number two. Hey, what if you could win a million dollars? What if I told you that the message of Jesus is actually one that supersedes and rises far above the benefits of winning millions and millions of dollars? Do you see how one at least has the intention of a hook? I don't know if it's good or not, right? That's why I say in fairness, I'm not a YouTube sivan or expert, but I want you, I wanna challenge you to think like a YouTuber. And so where one is taking care of housekeeping in your student ministry, what's going on the bake sale? The second one is actually thinking about YouTube first. It's creating a hook. So what are some implications for ministry? Well, first of all, a 30 to 45 minute sermon where the speaker is presenting primarily to a room full of people versus not really looking or paying attention to the camera. It's just there. Capturing them, doesn't act, Doesn't exactly right. Speak YouTube's preferred language. Think about it, in a live room environment anyway, messages between the length of 10 to 25 minutes seem to have become a pretty optimal length for student ministries who gather in person.

Nick Clason (13:51):
And I also think that if you take your YouTube or if you take your message content that you're going to already naturally deliver into a room, what I'm gonna actually propose here is that instead of capturing you delivering live to your room, I'm gonna propose that you prefill your content. And what happens is when you prefill your content, number one, you can create and craft a hook that is specific in particular for YouTube. Secondly, you can shave the time down to fit into that 14 to 16 minute window. Even if you go longer in the room, aim for that 14 to 16 minute window. And third, it gives you the opportunity to practice your message before you get up there and deliver it to a live room full of teenagers or parishioners or congregation members. And so that's one of the things that we've been doing.

Nick Clason (14:58):
We teach live every single Wednesday night, but during that week, after I'm done with my prep, I sit down, I put up a camera and iFilm my message. Then I do a little bit of post production, I add a sound bed behind it. I do some flying in graphics, lower thirds slides, and I put those on the screen as well. And that's gonna be our strategy for YouTube. Why? Number one, it's gonna let us do a YouTube first messaging. We're not gonna bury it behind a bunch of other elements. We're gonna go with the message first. If YouTube is in fact a search engine and kids are out there searching for answers to their faith, then let's give them the answers to their faith. And they might not care about our church announcements. They might not care about the worship, but what they do want is they want answers.

Nick Clason (15:45):
So answer the question, tell them what you're gonna talk about with the hook right up front at the very beginning of the video. And that for me is one of the hardest shifts, is moving from holding my ace content up my sleeve until the very end, waiting for the message to climax, but instead giving a teaser and a preview at the very beginning of the message. That's a shift. YouTubers do that really well. Pastors build to their ultimate conclusion, and so they try to create this mystery around what's gonna come. But the reality is on YouTube, if you don't hook them right off the bat immediately, then they are gone and on to the next thing. And so think like a YouTuber. Let's talk through some other YouTube best practices. Like I said, make sure your titling is something that a YouTuber would search for as opposed to Jesus Week three, Mark 14, one through 10.

Nick Clason (16:39):
That's not as captivating a title as Is hell a real place dealing with crippling anxiety or is rest even possible? You see the difference between those two. Think YouTube, think search engine, think click bait, think controversial type titles that help your video perform better because it's a search engine. The meta description or the title, the description of the video, those things all play a huge role in the YouTube ranking. So make sure you spend a little bit of time thinking through and crafting some good compelling descriptions. And then you can also link to things on your church's website or social media, or maybe even some products in the description of your video. Also include tags. YouTube gives you a spot to do that. So include keywords from your videos or tags that relate back to the topic. All three of those factors, title, description, tags, all play a role in the searchability of your YouTube content.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Also, your thumbnail plays plays a role. Go look at Mr. Beast. He's like number one, YouTuber in the world. Go look at his thumbnails on his YouTube channel and just get some photos with a decent iPhone, maybe a Google Pixel phone to take some halfway decent portrait shots. Throw some catchy text over it using maybe something like PowerPoint Canva, or if you have more skill Photoshop and use different catchy thumbnails to try on your videos. You can also then use a free tool like trends.google.com to look up your searchable words and compare things. AB testing. If you wanted to use the word fear versus the word anxiety, put those into trends.google.com. And you'll notice that anxiety has a higher search level. So use that.

Nick Clason (18:25):
And then also comments and shares and people embedding your videos are all things that are gonna help index it better in the YouTube algorithm. So ask for things like comments, ask for things like shares, and then on the embedding feature, try to embed your YouTube videos onto your church website onto your, And so then your website is hosting your YouTube video and embedding it already helps index it better. So you already have a platform that people are going to. So use that. That's a feature that's already built in and that can help you get going. All right, what if you're just starting? What starting gear do you need, right? Listen, if you're gonna go budget friendly, get a nice smartphone, right? I just gotta Google Pixel, the latest iPhone have some great things. One of the main things for filming is you need a separate microphone, Okay?

Nick Clason (19:24):
So you can get, just go on Amazon, do a quick search for a shotgun microphone with your style of phone connection that's needed. You can get something for under a hundred bucks. You can also get a lapel, a wireless lapel lighting. Natural lighting is great. Some ring lights can help. Do the trick. Get a tripod that you can stick your phone on. If you want a more professional rig, then listen. Just go to YouTube, search best YouTube starter set for gear, and you'll find something. I love everything that Brady Sheer from Pro Church Tools has to say just about anything in the church digital space. And in fact, I think the day I'm recording this, he yesterday just trapped a video on his favorite camera gear. So go copy that if you got the budget to do it and make it happen. And then you're just gonna have to do things like edit, and you're gonna figure out you wanna use iMovie, Da Vinci, Resolve Adobe Final Cut Pro.

Nick Clason (20:20):
Again, budget for some of those are cheaper, like iMovie and Da Vinci Resolve are free. More expensive options are the Adobe Suite or Final Cut Pro. You're just gonna have to see what you have and what's available out there. But listen, my recommendation, again, like I said, get on YouTube. Treat it like a search engine. Get out there. Put your message, the message of hope that you have about Jesus. Create a YouTube channel. Prefill your content or film it after you deliver it. If you want it to be a little bit more polished and you've a little bit more familiar with it, and just start posting some stuff out there, right? Try some things. Follow some of these best practices. You may not go viral overnight. I can't promise that, but these are some of the best practices out there on YouTube. And so simply following them is just gonna give you the best chance to be discovered.

Nick Clason (21:12):
And that's the goal. We want students, teenagers, or people wrestling with faith to come across the content that we have to offer, and hopefully give them something that's helpful. And this is just a way to expand your impact and your reach as a youth pastor, as a regular pastor in 2022 and beyond. Hey, I hope you guys found this episode helpful. If you did get, Man, leave us a rating or a review. We are on iTunes, Spotify, all the major podcast platforms, hybrid ministry. We're also on Twitter at hybrid ministry. We have full transcripts of everything. We provide this to y'all at hybridministry.xyz Come check us out there and we will talk to you guys.

SHOWNOTES
https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/gen-z-myths?utm_campaign=Marketing%20Blog%20-%20Daily%20Emails&utm_medium=email&utm_content=223400490&utm_source=hs_email

TIMECODES
00:00-00:35 Myths about Generation Z
00:35-3:34 Why do we keep focusing on Gen Z?
3:34-6:04 Myth 1: Gen Z is obsessed with fast fashion
6:04-8:22 Myth 2: Data and Privacy are irrelevant to Gen Z
8:22-10:43 Myth 3: TikTok is the best place to reach Gen Z
10:43-14:51 Myth 4: Put a product in front of Gen Z and they will buy it
14:51-17:15 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What's up everybody and welcome to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast, solo pod this morning. Uh, I mentioned several weeks back, uh, that I had just given notice to my church. Um, and so I'm kind of in a little bit of a transition. And so I'm from church and Chicago to a church in, uh, Dallas, Texas. And so got weird travel schedule going on. So me and Matt's, uh, schedule is having a hard time lining up. So, uh, today I just wanted to chat through just a quick couple of generation Z. Um, miss, uh, and the first thing I wanted to do with that is, uh, I pulled this article from a HubSpot article. I'll link it in the show notes, super interesting. And obviously HubSpot is not a Christian company. And so they're focused more on marketing than they are, you know, like on the church or whatever.

Nick Clason (00:53):
Uh, but what I wanted to say was I wanted to say, why, why do we keep honing in on gen Z? Um, I think, uh, I've just had like a, I don't know, a realization over the last little bit that like churches are, um, built, I think for, for older generations, you know, they're, they're, they're doing it the way, um, it's always been done. Um, and I think that there is probably a rethink that needs to take place. And I think that when you say that to, to maybe some older generations, gen X, um, boomer, there's just an immediate knee jerk of like, you know, you can't get rid of this, you can't get rid of that. Maybe the Sunday morning se sermon, um, the way we dress, the way we do things like, and I get that, right. There's a, there's a safety and a comfort in, um, just the traditions and the habits that have been built.

Nick Clason (01:47):
But I think gen Z is actually a really interesting case study because, and the reason I think it's important is because I don't know that the church is being super, um, relevant to reach them. I think that the church is doing things the way it's always been done. I think you look across the landscape of, uh, church leadership. The majority of church leaders are older in their forties, fifties, some even in their sixties. Um, and you know, like you, you hate to like categorize anybody, but they may just be kinda like hanging on until retirement. And so are they really looking to innovate? Are they really looking to reach and like, sure they're looking to reach, um, but maybe they're trying to do so in such a way that is done, um, reaching people the way that, that, that they're used to reaching it and the type of model that they're built. And so the reason we keep honing in, at least I keep honing in on gen Z. First of all, like I've said before, I am a youth pastor. So that is, you know, immediately in my kinda like purview. But the second thing is I think the church needs to adapt, not because to try and reach a specific generation, but because them millennials as well and all the generations that are gonna

Nick Clason (02:58):
Come after gen Z are gonna be different. So how can the church, which is in my personal and theological opinion, the most relevant institution in the world, it is the one that has stood the test of time. And so this isn't me coming in and just like slinging mud at the church. It's me, um, caring deeply about the church and how do we help take it to what could be the next level. And so, um, just one this article, like I said, okay, so we're gonna kind of dive into this article, um, is five, five gen Z myths debunked. Um, and so the first one, it says gen Z is obsessed with fast fashion. All right. So obviously as a church, we don't give a ton of care to fashion or apparel or they're pur purchasing things. However, um, you know, I think that the, the, the thing that is interesting to pull kind of out of this point here is that they're saying that they're interested in fast fashion.

Nick Clason (03:56):
That is a myth. Um, and it's not just about what's cheapest because as I'm looking at a graph that they share question here says, does gen Z think companies should take a stance on social issues? Uh, 50% of gen Z say yes, where 26% say no, and then 24% say not sure. And I think that that piece right there is incredibly relevant for the church, because I think oftentimes as a church, we, uh, hold back our opinions because we're afraid, uh, to ostracize anybody. And I understand it and I get the notion of it. I get the importance of staying in the middle. Uh, but the people, especially the younger people that we're serving, they wanna know where we stand on things. They want us to take a stance. And that's difficult, I think, as a church because, you know, uh, gen Z tends to skew maybe a little bit more left and our church tends to skew maybe a little bit more, right.

Nick Clason (04:51):
If we're just speaking politically. And so how do you take a stance on what I think is most important is to take a stance the way that Jesus would take a stance. Uh, but that can be challenging, cuz that might go against either a, a gen Z type person or B, it might go against, uh, the rest of your church or their, their older framework. So how is the church? Do you have the courage to stand up and to take the stances that you need to take the, and the stances that matter to gen Z? Um, and I think perhaps the reason that we pull back on that as a church is because our church's stance coming from maybe a little more conservative position is gonna go against a little more liberal of a position of, uh, what gen Z you know, uh, typically cares about the final paragraph, right? Just to kind of highlight that the final paragraph of this, um, this first point says we, when we ask gen Zers who want companies to take a stance on which issues and which are most important to them, racial justice was by far the top at 69% followed by LGBTQ plus rights, 50% gender inequality, 46 and climate change,

Nick Clason (05:57):

1. So again, just to highlight the things that gen Z is saying is the most important thing for them. Uh, the second thing here, the second myth that is debunked is that data, privacy and security are irrelevant for gen Z. And so again, they're saying that that's a myth, right? Because you know, it says here this first paragraph, I get why many people believe this one gen Z's known for being glued to their phones, which obviously comes with the risk of unsecured and unrestricted data. Right? However, it actually is the kind of the opposite. So gen Z's looking for data security, they want that to matter. So as a church, as you're creating more, maybe hybrid opportunities online giving, um, collecting their data, how are you, um, how are you, uh, keeping track of their data and how are you ensuring that it's it's safe, right?

Nick Clason (06:47):
Uh, furthermore, it goes on to share graph and it says, uh, gen Z's more likely to purchase from brands that number one treat their employees. Well, that's at 84% that they can trust with their data as high as 83%, um, donate to a, a portion of their profits to charity 68% actively try to reduce the environmental impact. 60% are committed to diversity and inclusion. 53% and advocate for racial justice. 51% are small businesses. 46% advocate for gender equality. 42% are owned by a person of color. 39% are owned by a member of LGBTQ. Plus 38% are woman owned, 37% and advocate for LGBTQ rights, 37%. So as you can see, the purchase decisions are strongly influenced by whether or not they can trust a company with their data, second ranked highest, but also the care about the, the issues like the, the social issues. And they're looking for those things, they care about those things.

Nick Clason (07:42):
And so they're gonna trust and subsequently not trust institutions that, um, that care about the things that they care about and the church we're an institution, just, we are, we're a large institution. I know we're not really a family and it should be different. And once you get into a church, I think you typically find that in most churches, especially the ones that are healthy, um, but from an outsider, especially a gen Z outsider, looking in, they're gonna look at that institution and they're gonna have some pause. They're gonna be concerned, you know, about a couple of things. Um, and as a church, how do we, how do we best make a bridge towards them? Okay. The third myth to debunk and this, listen, this is something we've talked about in this podcast. A billion times, TikTok is the best way to reach gen Z. All right. So check out what this first paragraph here says. This is a TikTok is obviously a great space for gen Z. It offers a genuine feel to the content that no other app provides. The style is quite attractive for some of our shorter attention spans and busy schedules. And in fact, 10 TikTok is the app that gen Z uses most often, despite this surprisingly, or maybe not. It is not our favorite social media platform when

Nick Clason (08:54):
Asked gen Z of their favorite social media app, Instagram and YouTube easily took the cake with TikTok being placed as third. So Instagram was 27%. YouTube was 23%. TikTok was 14% Facebook, 11% Snapchat, 10%. So again, we've been talking about short form video content, and I, we still think that that is king and we also have never advocated against YouTube, um, and Instagram. And so, um, especially Instagram with the, with the big push that they have right now towards reals. And so TikTok, uh, obviously is short form video content. And I think TikTok has pushed other platforms to kind of invest in that and make that more of a priority. And so how can you do that? What can you be pushing towards in that way? Um, but also, uh, Matt said this a couple weeks ago, too. Um, he said, once you reach someone with, with a TikTok video, like, yeah, that's great.

Nick Clason (09:48):
And all, uh, but then like, what do you, um, how do you sell them? Like, what's the next step? What's the conversion that takes place? Cause talk's a lot more just about discovery. So you discover something, but like even when you follow people on TikTok, it doesn't necessarily show them. Cuz I think majority of people spend their time on their four up page. And so you may gain a bunch of followers on TikTok, but are you showing up regularly in other people's algorithms and then thus right as a marketer, how then do you, uh, convert that into something that's actually meaningful into getting their information as a church? Um, if you're a marketer into getting their information so that you can sell them something that's a much, a much tougher sell, especially on something like TikTok. And so it's actually beneficial and advantageous to us that that Instagram and YouTube are still higher, that we can still invest in those platforms just as, as equally.

Nick Clason (10:43):
All right. The fourth myth here put a product in front of gen Z and they will buy it. So it says even though they gravitate towards TikTok style content doesn't mean they're receptive to just any form of short form video. Um, subsequently it says how, you know, how does gen Z prefer to discover new products on social media? Uh, 41% says through short form video. So again, that underscores what we've been saying, 36 through ads or sponsored content 32 through a feed post 29 through social media shops where purchase app happens through a story post, uh, 25% and then through an influencer 25%. All right. And so basically they there's, they just, just prefer to discover things maybe through TikTok reels or other short form videos. Um, but they don't want to imposed on them. Right. And so, uh, it actually, it goes on to say here in a world where we often feel are made to feel powerless, we strongly value a sense of autonomy and agency help us feel empowered through your actions.

Nick Clason (11:45):
So think about that as a church, um, we're pushing something, um, we're not selling anything, right. Um, but, but there is a level of decision that needs to be made specifically with regards to Jesus and with regards to the gospel. So how do we put the agency back in the hands of the people that we're trying to reach? Um, and a message, right. John 14, six, I am the way the truth and the life, the the is a very exclusive article there. Um, meaning that Jesus is putting and positioning himself as the person of the foremost authority. He is the way to the father. So how do we communicate that message in a culture? Um, and to a generation that they don't wanna be told what to believe. They don't wanna be told what to do. They wanna make the decision for themselves. They wanna be given the options.

Nick Clason (12:37):
And then they want to look around, see what their friends are thinking, um, or come to those decisions. So how do we as a church position and posture ourselves to not make it all about us, but instead to make it about the students that we are reaching. Okay. Um, and then the fifth myth here, um, word of mouth is a great way to reach gen Z, right? And I know that this one might seem contradictory. Um, but gen Z is feeling stressed outta control, doomed, like the weight of the world lies on their shoulders. And so with all this marketing that comes at them, um, we've turned, uh, what we wanna do is we wanna, um, everybody wants to put and push. Um, everybody wants to put and push an agenda, right? But like what's, what's most important, I think is still the human to human connection.

Nick Clason (13:25):
And obviously here we are, right. We're a, a podcast talking about the way to do ministry in a hybrid way, but there's still something about that human to human connection. And they still care about what other people say. Right. I use a lawn care company based on a recommendation. I use a plumber based on a recommendation. I feel better about things based on a recommendation than, um, a bunch of things on Google. And if I don't have that right, I then will go to Google or go to Yelp and look at reviews. Okay. So, uh, this graph here under this, this myth here, what channels have gen Z discovered new products on in the past three months? So 57% through social media, 46% through YouTube ad 42% by searching the internet 36 in retail stores, 30 by word of mouth, 23 through ads on film, TV, uh, streaming 19 through television, and then 19 through ads on music streaming like Pandora, SoundCloud, Spotify.

Nick Clason (14:19):
So, uh, the marketing, what this is saying, right? The marketing into gen Z spaces is that they feel comfortable on social media. Um, and that's the places that they're looking. And so, you know, even like I was saying, word of mouth, it's still, it's still value. It's still important. Um, what if your word of mouth can also underscore and come alongside of some of your online things? What if it can come alongside of some of the ads that, that they're seeing, cuz that's where they're, they're discovering the, the majority of what they, um, are, are buying and what they're purchasing.

Nick Clason (14:51):
So, Hey, listen guys, again, appreciate you for being here. Uh, sorry for the, the format. Sorry. Matt's not on. Um, but uh, just, I read the article. I found it super interesting and thought, man, there's a lot of like implications for the church. Um, we are, we're moving into a different age and you know, I think that the church is, I mean, I don't think I know that the church, uh, will prevail. It always has. It always will. Um, but the generations behind it are less and less, um, interested in just, uh, buying into it, hook, line and sinker. And so how do we as churches, position, posture, ourselves to make, to make the most effective impact in the lives of generations, these students, because before we know it, they're gonna be the ones that are in their twenties and then thirties and forties, and they're gonna be the ones in our churches.

Nick Clason (15:41):
And so we can't just keep doing things the way that we've always been doing it. Digital is incredibly important to them and the lifestyle that they're living. So how do we, as a church also find ourselves into their lives through digital means through marketing, through advertising now because we're trying to market Jesus, but because we're trying to, to reach people who are far from him and who are spending their time on these types of platforms and in these types of spaces and are becoming more and more comfortable with it. And just because they're comfortable with it and we may be less and less comfortable or even frankly uncomfortable with it, uh, doesn't mean we shouldn't, uh, force ourselves to, to figure it out and learn it and work through it. So thank you guys again for hanging out. Give us a like a subscribe. I mean, we would love to hear from you, um, from a, a review, just pull, open your purple podcast app on your iPhone and leave us a five star review, um, and a rating that would be incredible.

Nick Clason (16:43):
We are online at [hybridministry.xyz](hybridministry.xyz) and on Twitter at hybrid ministry. Look forward to connecting with you there. Hey, listen, like I said, I am in the middle of a little bit of a transition once things get settled a little bit, um, look for quite a bit more resources information, um, uh, you know, downloadables freebie stuff that we're gonna be given away, uh, really looking forward to growing and expanding the community and our reach here on this podcast. So again, thanks for hanging with us and we will talk to you next time.

Follow along on twitter - twitter.com/hybridministry

Or find full transcripts and show notes at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TIMECODES
00:00-0:58 – Intro
0:58-3:35 - Does Digital Ministry matter post-covid?
3:36-7:09 - What could a Hybrid Model even look like?
7:09-9:09 - The faltering faith of younger generations
9:09-13:43 - Inspecting Digital openness amongst Church attenders
13:43-16:29 - How to get started in the Digital Space
16:29-18:24 - How to expand teaching and preaching into the digital space
18:24-20:00 - The future of short-form video content
20:00-21:24 - The difference between a sermon and teaching online
21:24-22:23 - Short-form content is very digestible
22:23-23:44 - The advantage we have as church leaders in the digital space
23:44-32:50 - How to get started
32:51-35:28 - Fulfilling the Great Commission through Digital means

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
Years ago, right? Uh, so 22. Yeah. Wow

Matthew Johnson (00:05):
Man.

Nick Clason (00:05):
And I didn't do the beard, right?

Matthew Johnson (00:07):
Yeah. You were doing the chin strap back then.

Nick Clason (00:09):
Yeah, I had that for oh gosh. And it was like, not very much.

Matthew Johnson (00:13):
no, , it's like just subtle it up.

Nick Clason (00:19):
Yeah. And now I've got this gigantic thing.

Matthew Johnson (00:23):
I love it.

Nick Clason (00:25):
Well, Hey everyone. Welcome to hybrid ministry podcast. On today's episode, we are gonna talk about how your church can reach gen Z and millennials here in 2022. Um, I'm your host, Nick Clason, along here with my friend, Matt Johnson, Matt, how you doing?

Matthew Johnson (00:43):
Doing right? It's uh, a little early. I see the sun rising right now of the sky, but it's actually very peaceful and I'm loving it.

Nick Clason (00:51):
Yeah. You have coffee going yet or did you just, yeah. Okay. Smart. Smart.

Matthew Johnson (00:55):
Got some cold brew right here.

Nick Clason (00:57):
Nice. Okay. So, uh, I wanna talk about this idea of hybrid, you know, and, uh, like, like we said, in the pilot, there's a lot of, there's a lot of thought. I think amongst church leaders about, um, digital being kind of pitted against physical, um, and Barna actually came out with the study recently. I'm sure you've seen this because you're the one who told me to look at it. uh, that said, um, a solely digital church expression is wanted by only about 9% of Christians. So, um, when you read that, do you feel like that's a, do you feel like that is a push towards the, the physical expression? Like what would be your response to that?

Matthew Johnson (01:40):
Yeah, when I read that, it there's, I think there's a lot there in this study that Barnett did, but specifically this stat, what stood out the most about it is that when COVID happened, the answer was immediately, well, everything has to go a hundred percent digital or we're staying a hundred percent physical. There was no conversation about an in between at all. And you rooted uprooted people from their, you know, their daily lives, their weekly habits of every Sunday morning, I wake up and I, you know, go to my local church down the street or whatever to, okay. I gotta sit in my living room and watch church. And there's a huge disconnect that you started feeling with that. So, um, I think that's why digital church is drastically dropped and you can kind of see those numbers at, in the church in general. Um, and I mean, the stats says it all only 9% of, you know, Christians want only digital, which is not very high when you look at, you know, Christian numbers. So, um, but what it does say is there's still people that want that. So that's something we have to also keep in mind as we go forward.

Nick Clason (02:54):
Yeah. And if you, if you read on it actually says, um, so only 9% say they, they only that, and I think that that word only is what's key there. Right. Because it says one third express that some sort of hybrid option would suit them. Well. Yeah. So that's, that's 33%. Right. And then as you, as you inspect deeper into the generational gaps, millennials and gen Z are just as likely to choose a hybrid option as they are to choose a physical option. So 40 versus 42%. So like that, and that's the wave of the future, right? Yep. So, so what in your mind, like, what does, what, what does a hybrid option even look like? Or do we know, or do we know yet?

Matthew Johnson (03:40):
I don't think we have so a solid answer, but I think we have a lot of, um, balls rolling at different churches around the nation and you can kind of start seeing what a hybrid option looks like. So, uh, a good example, some of good examples that you could think of that. I mean, everyone talks about life. Church, life church is a great digital presence. Mm-hmm, , you know, they're live online. I mean, pretty much every time I go to their website, this says we're live right now. So , um, which is honestly why, uh, life church has probably been able to hit the millennial demographic better than most big mega churches have been able to.

Matthew Johnson (04:23):
Interesting because they have had that option where, Hey, I can go to church. Um, life church has locations everywhere now, but also I can just watch online. And that's the key to this. What we're talking about is like reaching these younger people. So even millennials who we are starting to see have kind of been a forgotten generation when it comes to the Christian world, the gen Z, who, um, we're starting to realize are going to be forgotten. And we have no idea how to talk to gen Z. Uh, how do we get these younger people involved with church as much as they are involved with other aspects of their life. Um, and if we can have that hybrid option, which really in my mind, we need to have an offering that they can do as much as possible as they can in the digital realm of your church, but have the reliability of coming to the church for all the major stuff. So crisises, um, community questions, mm-hmm, , uh, like, uh, conversations. Cause we know, especially you being a pastor, you know, you can have a way better conversation with somebody if they come have a coffee with you, then if they just tweet at you.

Nick Clason (05:49):
Yeah, for sure. So, well, and, and a step that you always remind me of is 51% of gen Z have said that they prefer online only as a discipleship option. Yep. And that's literally half can't get more. Yeah. I mean it's a little more than half, but so it's like, that is important and that that's half of our demographic. And so if we, as a church for sake, uh, any form or any sort of digital, uh, we're missing half of a generation based on what they say that they want. Yep.

Nick Clason (06:22):
And so we gotta, we can, we don't have to do that. We don't have to pursue after that, but we just have to know what the cost of that is gonna be. And the, I, I just think that the church is in a spot where they're the church being the capital C church, like in person, church, attendance trends are different and I get it cuz digital costs money. And so with attendance, a lot of times follows money. And so you gotta make sure that you have what it takes to, to staff towards these things and to pay for these things and have the budget for these things. Right. But yep. But uh, if we don't, we're just gonna continue to reach people as they are aging, older and older as gen Z, millennials are finding their worth meaning and value over on TikTok or on YouTube.

Matthew Johnson (07:10):
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, you can already see this trend of the younger generation's faith faltering drastically, like the Gallup study that you and I just talked about where, you know, uh, we went from 78% of 18 to 35 year olds had faith in God to now we're down to 68% and that's in what, six years. So that is, um, crazy, crazy aspect that we're not thinking about. And I'm telling you, um, we can keep doing church the way we've always done it, but the church is just gonna consistently be behind. And there's the running joke in the church world. And the church world is always five years late. You know, we always, you know, oh yeah, we're finally gonna add a guitar on stage. And everyone's like, well, rock music been around for 15 years. So, um, that's just the running church joke. We're a little slower to adapt, but we can't be slow to adapt in this climate because every day that we take our time on adapting is faith is all deteriorating. Hmm. So that's something we gotta keep in mind.

Nick Clason (08:20):
Well, and I, and you know, I wanna be clear like you and I like, we're not people that are like over here trying to like crap on the church. Like, oh, we love the church and

Matthew Johnson (08:29):
Yeah. We work at a church, so

Nick Clason (08:31):
Yeah. And we think that the church is like, I believe that Jesus made the church, his primary number one, uh, right. Yeah. Way to way to reach the world, you know? So like I think there's good things out there. I think there's good para church type ministries. Good, good people like on TikTok and YouTube trying to do things, but like the church should enter into this space, you know, and not just leave it up for some 15 year old influencer, you

Matthew Johnson (08:56):
Know? Exactly. Yep. Yeah. The church is not going anywhere. I wanna be clear about that. Like the church is solid, we're strong, it's the church just needs a little bit of a, a shift in, you know, it's something that everyone is talking about currently.

Nick Clason (09:09):
So, so Barnett had an interesting thing in their study, um, and they called it digital openness. So that's church adults who were defined as having digital openness. And so these are sort of the five kind markers of that. So I just wanna run through them. And then when you, and I can kind of think about, 'em talk about 'em the first one is, um, uh, a church adult with digital openness sees the value of attending an online church service. Um, they also think that churches should use digital resources for spiritual formation or discipleship purposes, post pandemic. They think that churches should use digital resources for gathering their people together after the pandemic as well. Number four, they say either hybrid. So both a digital and a physical or a primarily digital church will best fit their lifestyle after the pandemic. And they're open to attending new kinds of online gatherings that are unfamiliar.

Nick Clason (10:07):
So like we said, this is the type of, I feel like, I mean, you're millennial, I'm a millennial. Like these are things that like both you and I would hold as values, like having, having an option to attend something. Like, I guess the starkest picture I have of it. Matt is a couple weeks ago in our youth ministry. I was in the room. Um, and we were meeting in the room with our teenagers and leaders. And um, one of my leaders had a question about an event coming up and rather than her tracking me down, uh, she pulled up our website to try and find an answer to it. Um, and she, but she couldn't. And so we're in the room and she's on her online device trying to figure it out. And she's trying to, she's trying to get answers to it until finally she's like, Hey, like she's flagged me down as I was walking by.

Nick Clason (10:57):
And she's like, I can't find the answer to it. And I was like, oh, well that's cuz we didn't put it on there. Um, so that's our fault, but I just, again, right. Like that's an example right there of where digital meets physical. Like that's the type of world that we're living in. And I don't think that in the church in general, I don't think we're thinking about it often in that type of way. I think we're like trying to replicate a physical expression onto digital mm-hmm and I don't know, I, I do think that people are tired of that post COVID, but I do think that there are other avenues or other, um, other ways that people can try, uh, that churches can try to enter into that kind of hybrid space. So mm-hmm um, and another thing I thought was interesting, I'll read through these and then wanna kind of chat and just pick your brain as, yeah.

Nick Clason (11:43):
These, these are some of the options, um, of things that people thought could be like a, a digital expression or like a hybrid version. Right? So teaching slash preaching, one-on-one prayer, small groups, all of this in like the hybrid space, worship, prayer visitation, confession children's ministry, youth ministry, adult ministry, the number one option on there was teaching and preaching. And I find that so interesting that that was the thing that, that people thought was the number one option, um, of them to be able to, uh, experience something digitally mm-hmm . So for some reason I said this to you the other day. So for some reason in the church, the, the, we determined the most effective way to communicate theological truth was through a pastor preaching in a pulpit mm-hmm , that's no longer the most effective way. And I think for a lot of us in church, like that's a little bit of a terrifying proposition, cuz that, that means we're getting rid of something that is age old and, and someone we've been doing for years. And I'm, I'm not, I'm not even sure I necessarily want to do that either. But the fact is like, we, we now have the internet, we now have podcasts. We now have all kinds of other ways that we can communicate theological truths. So what are some of those ways that you could see the church stepping in to sort of that hybrid space and some of those, you know, arenas. Cause I think if, if you're the average person listening to this, you're like, okay, all these thoughts sound great, but like what should I do?

Matthew Johnson (13:21):
Yeah. Where do I, where do I start at? Yeah. So a big thing I even wanna highlight is this is just church adults that are saying this, so this

Nick Clason (13:29):
That's

Matthew Johnson (13:29):
Good point. Yeah. This isn't even like our agnostic, the atheist, the spiritually questioning people at all. This is just your people that are in your congregation right now are saying they need this mm-hmm um, so when I, uh, some good examples of some easy things that you can start doing today, um, that do that, don't take a lot of time and if you wanna, they can grow and they, they can be a good foundation building block for you. So, uh, first of all, teaching and preaching with record, just throw a camera up, record, whatever you're teaching your preaching is honestly. Um, we do know if you're trying to reach your church. People like honestly, all you could do is just throw that as an audio and make that a podcast and put that on your website and say, Hey, here's pastor bills or, uh, you know, pastor Toms, you know, sermon from this last week or whatever, something super easy that you guys can start creating the digital presence.

Matthew Johnson (14:34):
But some other easy stuff is like, just create a Facebook group for your church. Um, just, uh, or if you have like multiple different ministries in your church, create Facebook groups for all of them, invite your volunteers into there, invite the people that, you know, wanna be involved with those groups and start cultivating those relationships in a setting that is designed for that. And, uh, you're gonna realize most people, especially, uh, higher millennial up are gonna be very open to going into those Facebook groups. Now, when you're trying to hit gen Z and stuff, you're gonna have to get a little more creative with what your digital presence looks like. Um, cuz we know, first of all, they're slowly going off of Instagram. We know they're not really involved on Facebook anymore. And really the world that's they're they're in is like TikTok and Snapchat mm-hmm um, and those avenues are just vastly different, but I mean download TikTok and start making some fun videos. If you fill up to it, uh, there's some easy wins that you could start doing right now. And then if you really wanna start like strategizing, okay, what can we do? Um, as a church here is like digitally, uh, do you have a church bulletin that you give out every week that you're still printing, make that digital, just put that online. You can still have it physical, but give a digital option for it. Um, yeah,

Nick Clason (15:58):
At least let the people be able to find it on Tuesday night. Exactly. If they have a question about the, the Wednesday event coming up tomorrow,
Matthew Johnson (16:05):
Exactly like have, have all that in mind for any resources you're making and I guarantee you're making this stuff on your computer, so just upload it digitally instead of printing it and make a easy avenue for people to access that stuff. So, um, those are some quick easy wins. And then if we wanna get more complex, you know, there's thousands and thousands of things we can

Nick Clason (16:29):
Start to do. Yeah. Well, I mean I'm thinking, right. So if in this list here that I read already teaching preaching 1 0 1 small groups, uh, 1 0 1 prayer, small groups, worship visitation, confession children's youth adult ministry, the number one option out of that was teaching. Yeah. So we can deliver, um, our teaching yes. On a Sunday morning in a large group gathering of some sort, but both through, like you're saying ripping down audio, maybe throwing up a camera and creating it, uh, a video to put on YouTube. We can take that content though and repurpose it. And so, especially as we're talking gen Z, um, and millennials, uh, you know, I remember you telling me the other day, like everything on Instagram and Facebook is trending towards Instagram, uh, and Facebook reals. Yeah. Because they're trying to keep up with TikTok. Yep. And so this short form video is kind of king right now, at least at the time of this recording.

Nick Clason (17:27):
And yeah, we in the church are in the business of content creation. We create content every single week. So what if we just took and parsed out elements of our sermon from Sunday morning and just shot that in some sort of short form video content, like either leading up to the sermon or, uh, coming after the sermon, operating as some sort of like recap or something and just shooting it in with a little bit of a different mindset, same content, take all your study, everything you did, all the passages that you studied and did exegesis on. And then just bring that into like a one minute short form video and start flooding some of those places. I think that's a way that you can, you can take your digital or I'm sorry, your physical expression and bring it out into a digital world and kind of lean into that. That hybridness would you, what do you think about that?

Matthew Johnson (18:22):
Oh, I can't agree more and even speed of short term content, Instagram believes in it so much that they literally, this week as we're recording this updated Instagram, that every video is now real. So they have said,

Nick Clason (18:36):
I saw that yesterday. Yeah. I, I saw, I was like what? That's a real, yeah.

Matthew Johnson (18:39):
Yeah. So they're, they're saying this is where we're headed and it's to compete with TikTok. Um, so yeah, take your teaching and your preaching and just splice that up into some one minute service, uh, one minute clips and stuff. And let me talk, it's super easy to be able to do that. Um, I mean you can do that an I movie that's already on your iPhone or you can download a free video software, like black magic that is very easy to do on, I know it's a crazy name, black magic, but don't get scared by it. It's just a company and, uh, you can, uh, you know, start cutting up video today and honestly start, uh, growing your digital presence there, um, very easily.

Nick Clason (19:23):
So you, yeah, so you can either record your sermon and take clips off of that. Um, but I, I personally think if you don't, you know, if you don't have the technology for that, you don't have a camera set in the back of the room yet, and you're just starting in this, like all start recording audio, like the best camera that you have access to is the one in your pocket. Yep. You know, the, the, the, the phone now they say has more computing power than the computer that landed us on the moon. Oh yeah. Uh, back with NASA and, and Armstrong and everything like that. So just get your phone out and record short five short form videos as like, just snippets of your sermon, you know? Yep. And the difference, you know, Matt, like I was telling, I was talking about this last week with some of our team, like the difference between a sermon and a sermon.

Nick Clason (20:08):
You keep, you kind of build to like a climax and then you like have like a grand reveal at the end. Um, uh, social media is different. Like you gotta hit, you gotta hit your, your topics straight away. Um, and not, not hold it back. And so for preachers, sometimes it's a little bit of a different, uh, philosophy, right. But if you get on TikTok and you start exploring, you'll learn kind of that archetype pretty fast, you know? Yeah. That's anyone who's good and performing well on there. They're probably using that, that strategy. Yep. So have a compelling hook, um, and have some compelling text there. That's gonna stop the scroll because what, like, what's the average watch time on TikTok,

Matthew Johnson (20:50):
Like right now.

Nick Clason (20:52):
Yeah. I don't know. Like it's, it feels like if it's not good, you're just gonna swipe right. Past it to the next

Matthew Johnson (20:56):
Thing about, yeah. I mean, usually the average watch time is about seven seconds, which is why TikTok seven, second videos typically get pushed higher in their algorithm.

Nick Clason (21:05):
Yeah. And even as a church, you can even take some sermon content and put that in a seven second video. Right. Like you can, you can do one of those videos that has like way too much text to read in seven seconds. And so it's gonna force people to rewatch it, which is also gonna tell the algorithm like, Hey, this is a good video show this to more people.

Matthew Johnson (21:25):
Yes. Yep. And something else that's super important about that short form content right now is the fact of how digestible it is. Yeah. So when you're reaching millennial and gen Z and we're, let's think of like youth leaders, you're mostly gonna be reaching you to gen Z right now. Um, you're going, they're gonna want that short, digestible content that they can share with other people, or they don't have to think wrong about at all. So that content doesn't have to be the super polished piece. Mm-hmm I, I want to like, make sure that we're pretty clear about that. Like if you look at YouTube, um, and what people are watching, like most of these guys are just, you know, taking their iPhone and they're recording themselves and then they post it and it's get millions of views now. So, uh, that as long as the content is solid and it's short and digestible, you're gonna be totally fine.

Nick Clason (22:23):
Yeah. And I, I think that's the piece that, that also, so, you know, number one, we are content creators by nature in the church. And then number two, uh, the level of Polish, uh, has really diminished. In fact, I think some, some things that are so polished are sometimes a little bit of a turnoff mm-hmm to gen Z and millennials. And so both of those things bode well for you and I, because I don't need a several thousand dollars camera aside from the one that's already, probably on my phone. Right. Yeah. And I don't, I don't need to re like, gosh, man, I can't imagine if I was like a washer and dryer company trying to do social media. Like, what would I do? But I'm a church. Like I have, I have hundreds and thousands of pieces of content on my hard drive right now of old sermons. I've preached, like I can dust those off and I can turn those into short form video content and use it as a way to, you know, to reach people. So, yeah. Um, and it's not even, it's not even bad, like, it's, there's a lot of like serious or like thought provoking things on TikTok. It's not just dancing and, and trend videos. Like those things are on there for sure. But you know, like you can, you can, uh, find an audience there on, on TikTok, super easy by doing some type of stuff.

Matthew Johnson (23:42):
So, absolutely. Yeah.

Nick Clason (23:44):
So, um, if, if Matt, if, um, you were someone's, um, marketing consultant and they were saying, Hey, we have nothing. You know, we don't even record our sermons. We don't have a camera in the back of the room. Um, what are the, what was be three to five things that within the next like month, you could see a church maybe start to start to take steps towards, to enter more into this hybrid world to reach millennials and gen Z.

Matthew Johnson (24:10):
Oh yeah. So let's see, you have no digital presence at all. You're a church of, you know, 300, let's say a hundred. Yeah. Small plant. Um, just getting going. Uh, I was actually just talking to a church that has 50 in Denver. Um, and, uh, some of the stuff I would tell you is, okay, so create a Facebook page, start there, get a Facebook page going and a Facebook group going for your church. And just,

Nick Clason (24:38):
And by the page, you mean the, like the business, the thing so that you could be able to run ads off that if you wanted to

Matthew Johnson (24:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Creative Facebook business page, um, for your church, that is just a place that people can come like and make comments and you can start posting content on. So Sunday morning, pull out your phone, take a photo of the outside of your building and just say, come join us and give me the service times or whatever, like start, just start, um, pushing stuff on to digital platforms. And I also say create a Facebook group. Um, whatever that group looks like for you, I would really strategize and think about what you're trying to do with it. Um, don't just create a Facebook group just cuz oh, you know, these guys are telling me to create a Facebook group, like think about what that group should be, but really that group should be a place that your community can come together and start talking to each other. And there's not a lot of work you have to do for that. You create the Facebook group, you come in and put a post and let people facilitate those conversations. And if it gets, uh, little rowdy or crazy, you can start, you know, facilitating it. But I highly doubt that's gonna happen as you're getting going. Um,

Nick Clason (25:46):
Well, and you can even do like, and like you're saying like strategize, right? So you can be like, okay, every Monday we're gonna post like the, the song set from Sunday or something like that. Exactly. And then every, every Wednesday we're gonna do a Facebook live at noon and the pastor's gonna jump on and do a devotional. Then every Friday we're gonna do like a funny Friday and we're gonna post like a meme or something like that. Exactly. It can be that skeleton of a, a strategy because in a group you're hoping that everyone else kind of drives the conversation. And so you don't even really unlike Instagram or unlike TikTok, where you have to continually kind of feed the content yep. A group you can let the other people be like, be creating that

Matthew Johnson (26:24):
Absolutely like post post questions. Like what can we be praying for you for this week? Uh, what's going on in the community this week? Is there any volunteer opportunities like really get that conversation, just going, just spark the conversation and sit back and let everyone go. Um,

Nick Clason (26:39):
Okay. So get on Facebook,

Matthew Johnson (26:40):
Get on Facebook. Yep. And then, uh, another great thing is to start, like we said, making short term video, short term video content, and I'm, if you don't have a smartphone, which there's probably not a lot of us out here, that'd be listening to this podcast right now that don't have a smartphone. Um, so pull out your smartphone, take your sermon notes that just look at your sermon notes and find the minute chunks in there that you like and record that real quick vertical. Just shoot it vertical, throw it on your Facebook. Um, you can from Facebook post it strike to Instagram. Mm-hmm and there's not a lot of work there for you and that's gonna start getting your digital presence up too. And I, what I say is like, find those minute chunks, or even if you are like, you, you could speak into this more too, Nick, cuz you're obviously a pastor, but like, you know, you write your sermon and you go, okay, I know I'm gonna summarize this in a minute. I have my synopsis of what this is like record that though that on camera.

Nick Clason (27:45):
Um, yeah, honestly, I'm like it's, it's, , it's a little bit of a bummer how I can like preach a message for 30 minutes and then I can take my outline and basically summarize it in five minutes and do a five part series on TikTok. And I'm like, oh, what was I doing up there for 30 minutes?

Matthew Johnson (28:03):
You just have more stories of illustrations and

Nick Clason (28:06):
You. Exactly. And then the other thing you'd say is try and start recording your, your audio so that you can have a audio podcast. Would that be one of your things or is that not even as high on the list for

Matthew Johnson (28:18):
You? Um,

Matthew Johnson (28:21):
So the thing is, is if you have a audio set up at all at your church, so usually you, you know, it could be the most basic soundboard in the world, which you probably have right now you can throw an SD card and their press record while you're on stage. So I would say, yeah, go ahead and make your audio content a podcast right now, as long as you have that soundboard. Um, but I'm, if you have a mic set, as long as you're not, you know, using a mic, like a karaoke mic, you should be able to do that, but don't go buy new equipment yet until you're ready for that next step. Cuz here's what happened during the pandemic and all these guys I talked to as I was consulting with churches and figuring out how to help them go digital or okay, I'm gonna go buy these three Sony cameras.

Matthew Johnson (29:07):
We're gonna have this three camera set up. Uh, we're gonna have some students in the back, you know, try to figure out what we're doing. Hey, uh, Matt, what is all the equipment I need? And my answer always was like, first of all, okay, if you had the budget for equipment, let's talk, but don't go get the top tier of anything. You don't know where this is headed for you guys. So yeah. Tweak your time. Um, and really have a figure out that strategy, not just the, oh, everyone's doing this, so I need to do this before you go do it. So, um, yeah, get that podcast going, uh, the audio for that podcast or whatever that looks like for your congregation or your group going, that's gonna help you digitally. Um, and then, you know, another easy thing to do is, like I said, you know, post that short term content on like, uh, Instagram and Facebook. Like if you are already starting to post social and stuff, like start posting doesn't necessarily like not graphics per se, but like just take a photo outside and go, how can I be praying through this week?

Nick Clason (30:14):
Yeah.

Matthew Johnson (30:15):
Or, uh, take a photo of worship this week and go, Hey, what worship songs would you wanna see this? You know, this semester or whatever, like you can start asking those questions that are related to those options that you were talking about earlier. So, um, you can really start figuring out what it is that people are looking for with your group.

Nick Clason (30:35):
Yeah, well like we recently doubled down in our student ministry on, on TikTok and on reels. Um, and we actually pulled back on some of the more formal, uh, or traditional styles of posting like on Instagram or whatever. Yeah. And we just used, uh, we're just using our short form video content sort of supplement in those areas. So for example, like I was trying to post a story a day and I was trying to post something on the Instagram feed a day and I scaled those back cuz I saw those starting to underperform a little bit mm-hmm um, but I saw our reels and our TikTok content starting to skyrocket. And so I was like, all right, instead of five things a day or five things a week on the feed, let's just move it down to three, make it really quality content, like get a nice photo.

Nick Clason (31:23):
Um, and then the rest, um, of everything and just throw, throw that short form video content. So again, like we were saying, depending on when you're listening to this at the time of the recording like that right now is everything. Yeah. And the beautiful thing is that doesn't require a lot of, you know, like software knowhow, like you can edit right in the app, like TikTok has a decent editor. So does reels, like you don't have to have Adobe premiere pro or any video skills. And like you said, you have, you have the ability to just shoot that kind of raw on the cell phone. That's sitting already in your pocket. So yeah. And what was that back to podcasting? What's that HubSpot stat? You said about uh, uh, the average adult and podcast.

Matthew Johnson (32:10):
Yeah. Listenership. Yeah. I think it's 84% of people listen to eight hours of podcast a week. And I know I'm one of those guys, like, you know, I've, I've always listened to podcast. You don't even realize how much is I listen to when I run, I listen to, when I drive, I listen to it. When I'm cooking, I listen to it when I'm doing housework, like I'm always listening to, you know, my podcast. So, um, you wanna be where people are. So as you start seeing where your people are, know that to go for them and you're gonna hear people go, well, I don't listen to podcasts. Remember we are, we're here talking about millennial and gen Z. They listen to podcasts. yeah, I promise so

Nick Clason (32:51):
Well, I think that's a great way to put the, I think great way to end it. You said go where people are, cuz that's what this is about. And if we look, if we pull this all the way back from, from the great commission of Jesus, which is to go out and make disciples of all nations like it, when, when we dovetail that off of the acts one eight, uh, commission, where he says, you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea Samaria, and then ultimately to the ends of the earth, it's this ripple effect. But it starts where you are. So find where the people are. Yeah. There's, there's a quote that said theology is all the more important today because there are so many messages being delivered into your home that you need to be able to determine then what is actually true? that quote came from CS Lewis in the 1950s.

Nick Clason (33:37):
Yeah. When the advent of television was coming into the, to the American and, and world's home, right? Imagine the, the importance of that same idea, that same quote now with not only television, but internet, YouTube, TikTok, cell phones, advertising, all the things like that. Like the, the time is now like the amount of untruth that's out there. And so the world needs you, the world needs your church and your people and millennials and gen Z. Like they, they do, I, what I've seen as a youth pastor, they do care about spiritual stuff. Oh yeah. They just don't think the church wants to talk about the spiritual stuff that matters to them. Yeah. So don't be afraid to Wade into that space because oh yeah. Because relationship equals influence and so you can help to start build that through, uh, some of your digital channels.

Matthew Johnson (34:30):
Mm-hmm yep. Totally agree.

Nick Clason (34:33):
All right. Well I think that'll do it for us, uh, today. Any, any final thoughts, Matt?

Matthew Johnson (34:39):
No, just go get it and just start, you know? Yeah. Go, just start. Um, your digital presence. That's all I can say. Like that's the thing that we, we can sit here and talk to strategize, but just go shoot your first video. Go create your Facebook or whatever that looks like. Just take that first step. You guys got this.

Nick Clason (34:56):
Yeah. Well, Hey forever. You update on this. Follow us on Twitter at hybrid ministry, uh, website is hybrid ministry.xyz because of course.com was taken and uh, and uh, yeah. Be sure to subscribe, share it with friends. And uh, we'll talk to you guys next time.

Matthew Johnson (35:14):
Hey, thanks guys.