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Show Notes & Transcripts: http://www.hybridministry.xyz/046
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SHOWNOTES
THE ARTICLE BEING READ & REFERENCED:
https://youthministry360.com/blogs/all/how-to-be-present-with-your-social-media-presence

MY STUDENT SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.tiktok.com/@crosscreekchurch?lang=en

10 FREE SPIRITUAL PRACTICE TIKTOKS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4n40o5080lblih/Spiritual%20Practice%20TikToks%20-%20Nick%20Clason%20and%20Bailey%20Fore.zip?dl=0

TIMECODES
00:00-02:18 Intro
02:18-07:24 How to be Present with your Social Media Presence
07:24-12:19 How do we Show Up Where our People are Spending their Time?
12:19-12:58 Don't post Announcements on Social Media
12:58-14:01 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hey there everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always, am your host, Nick Clason. Thrilled to be here again with you. And just let me let you know little bit of a shorter podcast today I'm actually gonna do something a little different, a little unique. I recently wrote an article for YM Short for Youth Ministry 360, um, titled How to Be Present With Your Social Media Presence. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop the link to that here in the show notes, but I'm actually just gonna read it for you, um, and also give you some author commentary as I, uh, am reading it through. So expect like a 10, 12 something minute pod. You probably already saw that. If you already downloaded this, if you're on YouTube, welcome in. Glad to have you. Excited to be with you.

Nick Clason (00:48):
And here's why. Honestly, um, this may release the week before, week after, not sure yet in the order. I'm doing a little bit of some batch pre-recording because my family and I are getting ready to go to Disney and I'm looking to just completely unplug from work, from this, from podcast side hustles, all the things I'm doing. Uh, so excited about unplugging, excited about getting ready to send and go and be with my family in Disney. Um, that being said, I, the, the craziest thing about this article is I wrote it, I can't even remember how long in advance, and then it dropped months later. Like I, I wrote it, I know when I lived in Chicago and it dropped just a couple weeks ago now when I'm living here in Dallas. And so my life has changed immensely. And when I heard it, there were elements of it that I was like, oh, that's interesting.

Nick Clason (01:34):
Oh, I don't know if I would've said it that way. And then there are other things I was like, yeah, I definitely still agree with that, you know, so I thought it'd be fun to bring to you all because I wrote it before, I think I wrote it before we even had a podcast going. So these thoughts, like, just think about that. If you've been on this journey with me listening to, to me in your ear ball holes for a while, think about this. These, these thoughts that have been ruminating inside of me and brewing inside of me. Uh, anyway, all that to be said, show notes, hybridministry.xyz. Subscribe to us on YouTube, follow me on TikTok Act place. And Nick also five star review if you would be so inclined. And without any further ado, let's dive into how to be present with your social media presence.

Nick Clason (02:19):
All right, here we go. How to be present with your social media presence. Read by the author himself, Nick Clayson. Here we go. Incarnational ministry. Did I lose anybody yet? Now before you go dust off your lexicon, you probably already know and embrace this as a characteristic in your life and in your ministry, right? Here's the thing. And I said this cuz I knew that, that pastors, youth pastors, who's ever gonna be reading it, primarily, this is a youth pastor. This isn't aside by the way, in case you didn't know primarily youth pastors reading this. They embrace and embody this, this characteristic, this idea of incarnation ministry just may not use it. You know, super frequently in our vocabulary anyway, in the gospels, we see Jesus going to be with his people that he encounters. So if our ministries are going to be a mirror of Christ's incarnation life and incarnation ministry, we are required to go and be with the people that we're ministering to.

Nick Clason (03:16):
And if you and I were youth pastors in the nineties, well we'd probably be found at the mall sitting next to a Chinese restaurant that's handing out free samples of their bourbon chicken and browsing hot topic on our way out the store. You know, you remember, however, if your towns anything like mine, well, the mall I just described as a of it, former of its former self. So where are all the teenagers hanging out? According to some statistics, 45% of Generation Z report that they're online, as they describe it as almost constantly, 45%, 24% of teams report feelings of discomfort if they go more than just one hour without access to the internet. And finally, on average, generation Z allocates two hours and 55 minutes per day on average to social media. So let's just be honest for a minute. The mall has gone to there, and let's be honest and frank, our pockets, it lives on our phones and the students that we're trying to reach and spend their time, they're online.

Nick Clason (04:26):
Regardless of your opinion of whether or not you believe that this amount of screen time is healthy, advantageous, it's probably not. It is where our students are spending the majority of their time. Let's pause for a minute. Um, a quick aside from this, I was in a recent Barna CoLab group on how to disciple Gen Z and their, they're sharing some recent findings, super interesting, super fascinating stuff. One of the things that they shared, um, actually it was a guy that they interviewed from a church and he said, uh, if Generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then generation alpha right behind them. By the way, if you're youth pastor, that is fifth and sixth, seventh, eighth grade, maybe not as high as seventh and eighth grade, but definitely like sixth, fifth, and on down. So they are the youth ministry of the future.

Nick Clason (05:13):
So if generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then that means that generation Alpha is the first digitally dependent generation. Crazy to think about. And so a lot of times, let's be honest with our generational age gap and difference, even as I'm a millennial, even as some fellow millennials, Xers, boomers on up, what is our constant, like, what are we constantly asking generation Z and younger to do? We're asking them to get rid of their phones. We're asking them to disconnect and unplug from technology. And while I think that there's advantages to that and it's advantageous for people to learn the disciplines of being able to break away, find some silence, find some solace and solitude, um, away from social media culture, away from online culture, I think all of that is well and good. I just think that you have a generation that is dependent on it.

Nick Clason (06:06):
It is literally their alarm clock. It's their calendar, it's their actual phone. It's where they communicate with all their friends, whether it be text message, Snapchat, be real, but it's, it's their their map, it's their navigation system. It's the way that they check their grades. It's how they pay for their school lunches. Like it's everything. It's not like, I'll give you this example. I am recording this podcast when I'm recording it in preparation for my trip to Disney World. Everything at Disney World is now online. It's in the my Disney Experience app Genie Plus, which is the replacement of Fast Passes, lightning Lanes, um, checking into my resort, making mobile food orders, like everything is on my phone. And you are at an amusement park with your family trying to unplug, trying to disconnect Bif, do you have to be on your phone? And there are people who are like, I'm done.

Nick Clason (06:56):
I'm not gonna do that. And that's fine. But the reality is we are moving more and more towards that than we are away from that. And so if this generation is dependent upon it, what we have to do is stop villainizing the phone and we have to start looking at it as an opportunity to teach them and disciple them through how to have faith with a phone through that lens. And I think that's my heart in this article, and that's what's coming through. Let's read the next section. So here's a question for you. If in the nineties you would've gone hung out at the mall to connect with students and teenagers, how in 2023, which is one of the articles written, how in 2023 are you showing up where your students are? See, I'm not necessarily proposing that the digital church replaces the in-person experience hybrid far from it.

Nick Clason (07:47):
But if your students go home after school and spend almost three hours on their phones, which is what the statistics told us, then couldn't you make an impact with your students or your people online? All right, so here's some ideas how to do that. If you've been listening to this podcast any length of time you've heard it, I'm gonna say it in idea and then I'm gonna riff on it. So I'm gonna say idea number one, idea number two, so that you're clear, okay, idea number one, share a devotional thought. Guys, you can hold your phone out in front of you and you can give either a recap of, or you can give a completely new and different from, not different cuz come, gonna come from the Bible, hopefully, but different from your sermon or from the lesson that week or whatever the case might be.

Nick Clason (08:29):
You can give just a devotional thought, boom. Hey guys wanna give you quick encouragement, 60 seconds or less. People don't want longer than that. Anyway, you can do a deep dive into an encouraging, um, or challenging passage of scripture. Again, 60 seconds or less. I, I think maybe it was Mark Twain, I'm not sure, but it was him who said, Hey, I wanted to write a short letter but I didn't have time. So I wrote a long letter. See, it takes more time to make something quick, concise, and short. Idea number three, have fun, create fun and funny posts. Hey, if you're not following us on TikTok on our student ministry, I would encourage you to, you can go check it out. We are Cross Creek students. Um, hopefully now we are at Cross Creek students. If not, I may still have it set as at Cross Creek Church cuz TikTok won't let me switch my name over to Cross Creek students, but that's ultimately the goal.

Nick Clason (09:18):
I've had a hard time switching it over. But we do fun and funny posts. I literally, right as I was walking into this spare bedroom of my house to record this podcast, I was literally posting a video of a girl drinking ranch dressing flavored soda and trying to guess the flavor of it. Like it's just fun. And honestly, what I do is I toss out the invite on a youth ministry night. Hey, you wanna be on TikTok tonight? Sure. They all come into the room. I have six bottles of soda with weird flavors. I have a game cud up on my laptop. And another thing with the filter on on TikTok, it gets me like 20 pieces of video content that I just store, bank and pull back out later when I need it in my calendar. Idea number four, film answers to theological questions, right?

Nick Clason (10:02):
People are inspired by answers to deep things that maybe you don't wanna put online, but things that students are dealing with. Like, why do bad things happen? How do I develop a habit? Why, how do I spend time with God even if I don't want to? Why would I go on obeying him and living a life of sinlessness or the goal of that if he's always just gonna forgive my sins? Anyway? You talk about that every week. What's the point of it? What does God think about gay people? Does God require me to be a democrat? Does God require me to be a Republican? What would Jesus think of our current political landscape? You get the idea. Idea number five, encourage spiritual practices and disciplines. I don't know if it's gonna get accepted or if it's out yet, but I recently submitted, if it is, I'll drop a link to it in the show notes.

Nick Clason (10:48):
I recently submitted 10 TikTok videos. Actually, you know what I'm gonna do? It's on ym, um, or I submitted it to d y m I don't know if they took it or not. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop a link, uh, to that resource, the Dropbox resource in the show notes here, completely free charge. Just go grab it and use it. It's, uh, memorize scripture with me. Practice meditation, sit in silence, have a praise break, all kinds of different things. 10 different spiritual practices that that students or people or adults can use. It's not branded. So you can use it. Just download it and post it wherever you, uh, manage social media free for you. Uh, let's see. Are we on six idea number six, you can do recap posts or videos. Just take, literally you only need 3, 4, 5 seconds worth of of videos and you get like 10 of those real fast at the beginning of the night, um, or during your program.

Nick Clason (11:40):
And then you just put 'em into TikTok. Auto cut. Boom. You got a less than 22nd recap video. Phenomenal way to do that. Idea number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, less idea Number seven, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Figure out how to do that on social, whether it's static graphics, whether it's motion graphics, whether it's you talking graphics, whether it's voiceovers, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Finally, you can quiz students on their Bible knowledge. Uh, one of my favorite ways to do this is on the Instagram story editor with the story sticker, uh, uh, multiple choice story sticker. You can put it in there and you can ask them bible questions and test their Bible knowledge. Super fun way to go about doing that. Those are just some ideas to name a few. I don't know your context, but here's one thing that I do know, we're back to the article, is that I want you to notice that not one single idea that I mentioned above was an advertisement for an event.

Nick Clason (12:32):
We've gone into this, if you've listened to me for a while, you've heard this before. But what if we could use social media to encourage students to actually take the next step in their faith to engage with you or with your ministry, to challenge them to deeper more meaningful ways and a more meaningful walk with Jesus. It's not just another communication platform, which is what we often default social media into being. It's a means to help accomplish a more incarnation form of ministry. So that's it, that's the article. Love to know how you are using social media in your ministry context for more than just announcements to encourage people in their faith to show up where they are. But the bottom line is we are rooting for you. We are cheering you on. So glad you're in here. Hey, listen, if you didn't know this, 2023 is the year of short form video content, vertical video, short form content, less than 60 seconds. If you're like, man, I don't even know how to get this word out there, we got you right here. Link the description. If you're watching on YouTube or go grab our 100% completely free e-book titled, have I already ruined my Church's TikTok account? No. But this book will help teach you how to post one from start to finish all the way through doing it all on the phone in your pocket. So we're here for you, rooting you on. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being a loyal listener. And as always, we never forget.

Entire Show: http://www.hybridministry.xyz/038
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
TikTok: http://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
FREE e-book: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook

TIMECODES
00:00-01:55 Intro
01:55-06:25 The Instagram Usage Statistics of 2023
06:25-08:23 The Instagram Feed Grid for Churches in 2023
08:23-10:03 Instagram Stories in Churches in 2023
10:03-12:10 Instagram Reels for Churches in 2023
12:10-14:59 3 Things to do on Instagram in 2023
14:59-16:40 3 Things to avoid on Instagram in 2023
16:40-17:48 How to Utilize stories on Instagram in 2023
17:48-19:21 How to Utilize Instgram Reels in 2023
19:21-20:41 Instagram Content Strategy Idea for 2023
20:41-22:45 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always am your host, Nick Clason. Thrilled and excited to be with you. We are going to be continuing on through our six part church social media framework and this is actually the very final piece, um, of actual social networks. The next episode we're gonna talk website, text groups, email list, um, which is a little cheating cuz it's more than six, I get it. But that's what we're gonna look and chat, look at, and chat through next week. We are gonna round it out with Instagram today. Excited to be with you Before we dive in, a, uh, would love to encourage you to hop into your podcast app hitter rating hitter review. That would be an incredible resource and an incredible gift to us. We will be thrilled if that's something that you will be willing to do.

Nick Clason (00:56):
So please take time to do that. Also, we are on YouTube, so hit the show notes for a link to YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, we're a podcast. So hit the link in the show notes to check out our podcast episode, um, website hybridministry.xyz. And for each and every single episode, we provide for you 100% free of charge transcripts. So if you're on a run and you're hearing something and you're thinking, man, that was really good, I want to go back and look at that a little bit more. I want to extrapolate that out. You can head to the link in the show notes. We will link this exact episode to the link in the show notes hybridministry.xyz/038. Once again, thrilled to be with you. Glad that you guys are here. And without any further ado, let's dive in and start talking about Instagram as a part of your church's six step social media framework.

Nick Clason (01:56):
All right, let's talk Instagram. So, um, again, if you, uh, did not watch last episode, uh, or listened to it, I would definitely recommend going back and doing it because in our order we want YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram. And the primary reason for putting Facebook ahead of Instagram was, I personally have found it easier to start with Facebook link my two accounts, Instagram and Facebook. Um, on the Facebook side you can try and start linking 'em through Instagram side, but you're eventually gonna end up over needing to do your meta business suite. And that that's just the easiest place to start is Facebook. And so if you're starting from scratch, start with Facebook, but don't abandon or neglect Instagram because Instagram is actually an incredibly used and um, popular resource among Americans. So, uh, just a couple quick Instagram hit quick hitter stats before we dive into actual strategy around it.

Nick Clason (02:52):
In the US there are 127.2 million Instagram users, uh, in the United States in the year 2023 alone. Uh, Snapchat, conversely is at 89.5 and TikTok is at 89.7 according to stati statistica.com. I'll link some of the stuff in the show notes. Some other interesting, um, stats and statistics is the age breakdown is that male users are at 51.8%. Female users are at 48.2%. Um, the age breakdown on Instagram, 13 to 17 year olds are 8% of the usage. Um, where 18 to 24 year olds are at 30.8% of the usage. 25 to 34 year olds are at 30.3% of the usage. 35 to 44 year olds are at 15.7% of the usage. 45 to 55 year olds, 8.4% of the usage, 55 to 64 year olds, 4.3% of the usage and then 65 plus are at 2.6% of the usage of people on Instagram. Now that being said, you can see that the data skews young, but there's a giant, a giant spike between the ages of 18 and 35.

Nick Clason (04:16):
Again, my guess is as a church, uh, we did this, this thing with the unstuck organization a couple years ago with the church I worked at and uh, they said it well. They're like, you obviously wanna reach all people and be all things to all people. However, you probably also want to kind of hone in on a demographic and you don't wanna pick one over the other. But once you hone in on one, what you do notice a lot of times is that the other demographics are attracted to just you having some sort of vision. And so my guess is that the demographic, the target demographic that you're attempting to reach if you're a younger church or if you're going to at least try and reach the next generation with kids and students, is that you're gonna wanna squarely reach between 18 and 34. Like that is probably your prime shot and you're probably weak on that 18 to 25, 18 to 30 pre-k um, spot.

Nick Clason (05:12):
And the reason I know that is cuz just about every church in America is actually kinda weak at that. However, uh, I think that that is still squarely a good demographic to be, um, targeting and and trying to to go after. All right, some other quick Instagram stats, Instagram story, daily active users are at 50, uh, 500 million plus. Uh, the number of businesses on Instagram are 200 million plus. And um, there are 0.59% of Instagram accounts with over 1 million followers. So Instagram, as you can tell, are is still incredibly, um, active. It's still incredibly popular while is very much on the rise, um, and has been challenging Some of these legacy platforms like Instagram, like Facebook, Instagram still has a place, in fact, just like anecdotally, like I prefer TikTok, but my wife, she watches short form videos, but she chooses to do so in the Instagram reels section of Instagram.

Nick Clason (06:16):
Which leads us to our next section. Let's talk about some of the different features, um, that you can find and can use on Instagram. All right, the first feature is the Instagram feed. Now this is probably the thing that if you are just logging into Instagram for the first time, the first thing you're gonna see is the spot where people post pictures and you scroll. Instagram made the scroll endlessly. Like that was them. They made that, uh, popular and then they made all their social media sort of adapt to that. In fact, I remember the update when Facebook went from side swiping photos to you could click on a photo and you could swipe this way. They did that in response to Instagram. I don't know if that was before or after they acquired it, but nonetheless, like Instagram has been very popular and has made a lot of important headway in the world, um, of social media.

Nick Clason (07:07):
And so the feed is probably your legacy platform. It's also your social graph spot where you are following the people that you want to follow. Um, and so you get on there, you'd scroll and you'd see, oh, so and so just, you know, they just went on a trip to Brazil. I'm gonna check that out. I'm gonna like it, I'm gonna comment, I'm gonna share. That's what happens on the Instagram feed. I do also think that the Instagram feed was one of the first places where the highly curated look became popularized. And I do think that some of the platforms like TikTok, like Snapchat and even like be real, have um, swung the pendulum back is because they are pushing back against some of the highly curated social media, uh, places. And so they're looking to find a place where you can actually come in, be yourself, be real, show the unfiltered version of yourself.

Nick Clason (08:00):
And so the whole perfectly edited, perfectly airbrushed photos and curated. I think that that is starting to wane, especially with the newer and younger generation. And so while Instagram and its feed definitely has a position in this six step social media framework, I do think that it is probably one that has grown the most tired and people have grown the most weary of over the years. Let's talk about Instagram's stories. If you log into your Instagram app on your phone across the top, they're little circle icons of different accounts. Uh, and if you like navigate onto an account and there's like a little yellow, not yellow purple or like pink the Instagram gradient, uh, ring around it that indicates that they have a story. Well, when you log into your app immediately right across the top, if there are icons up there, almost inevitably that means that those people have used their stories.

Nick Clason (08:53):
So that was made popular by the social media Snapchat. It was an idea that you could post something that would last for 24 hours. And so a lot of video, a lot more unfiltered, a lot less curated, a lot more behind the scenes, a lot more just real life. And Instagram stories was an amazing platform and one that um, I think a lot of churches took advantage of and honestly can still take advantage of, like I think for example, really great strategies to just hand that over to someone on your staff once a week and have them do a day in the life. A takeover, a takeover Tuesday. Um, we do it at like on Wednesdays cuz that's our ministry night at our church. And so, um, someone is in charge of taking over the Instagram account either, you know, on a Wednesday all day during the day, uh, to lead into, you know, Wednesday night coming up for, for students or whatever.

Nick Clason (09:44):
So I think Instagram stories have grown in popularity. Uh, statistic I have here says that 86%, approximately 86% of Instagram users access their stories on a daily basis. So it's still a very popular feature and still one that's very much widely being used by Instagram users today. Let's talk about Instagram reels. The reason most of us are here, especially in 2022 with short form video content, Instagram also stole another feature. Just like they stole stories from Snapchat. They stole reels in that idea from the popular app. TikTok Instagram introduced reels into their platform in August of 2020. Um, it's the same basic premise of what you get on TikTok. Scroll endlessly use trending sounds, do silly dances. One thing that's interesting to note is about a year ago or six months ago or so, Instagram recently converted every single video on their platform from whatever it was over to a reel.

Nick Clason (10:43):
So for example, I don't know if you remember, there was this platform called I G T V Instagram tv. They're trying to kind of go after YouTube and the long form video pieces, however they went for vertical where YouTube was still focusing on horizontal. Every one of my and i I went in on I G T V when it was new. I used it a lot personally. I used it a lot in my ministry. They've converted all of those I gtv videos over to Rio so they don't sit under an I G T V tab anymore or over an I G T V app, which was its own thing. Which not sure why Instagram felt the need to add a whole nother app that you could still access through their normal app. Nonetheless, I digress. But now you can still find old legacy I G T V videos sitting under your Instagram reels tab.

Nick Clason (11:28):
That's where all of those have been converted and now that's where they sit. So, uh, Instagram reels, uh, has become very popularized and um, Instagram has gone in to say that we are, we are about reels now. This is our thing. They have recently come out with a little algorithm shift in saying that they do want to push, um, photos, again, not just reels. And so, uh, we'll dive into the Instagram algorithm change in a future episode, but for now, still know that in 2023 I think your strategy should be short form video content. And that does definitely and very much include Instagram real. Let's talk best and worst content strategies for Instagram. Here are three dues on Instagram. Do number one, do post pictures of people in your church congregation. A couple years ago, Brady Sheer went out and did this study. Uh, it was just an anecdotal study, but he took a, uh, cell phone and then you hired a, a photographer and they took pictures in the same day.

Nick Clason (12:34):
And, uh, the people could not really tell the difference between the cell phone photos and the actual like professionally graded photos. The point in the premise of that is that in your pocket you have the power of an incredibly strong camera that you can use to take photos of people in your church congregation. So take on a Sunday morning, on a Wednesday night, whenever your primary meeting time is, take those photos, post them and use them on the feed. That can almost be your entire content strategy for on the feed. Now there is a probably decent chance that you already have some sort of rhythm with a photographer, whether it be volunteers or whatever, who are regularly taking photos for you. Keep that going. I still think that pictures of people with smiling faces posted on your social media is still a relevant, meaningful, and purposeful content strategy in 2023.

Nick Clason (13:28):
Content strategy number two is repost your reels. So what I mean by that is, like we said, Instagram is all in on short form video content here in 2023. When you go to post a reel, you have an option to either add it to the feed or take or hide it from your profile grid most often, cuz I, you've heard me say in past episodes perhaps that I post three uh, TikTok slash reels a day. So I don't post all three of those to the feed, but I do choose one that I want to post to the feed. So for example, we will often have fun, silly, goofy content, um, but one of them is gonna be serious. And I often choose to post that one to the feed so that more of our church people are seeing it. So use the Instagram post to feed option as a way to supplement your Instagram strategy, especially on your Instagram feed.

Nick Clason (14:20):
Also use some funny content. We talked about this in the YouTube trends report, but essentially 63% of Gen Z followed a meme account in the last year. And, um, gen Z and and people on social media are looking for brands and people to repurpose and use funny meme based silly kind of content like that. So use that stuff. Use memes on in short form video, use static memes. Um, we do a meme Monday and I think that there's a market for that even if you're not youth ministry. So don't be afraid to be funny. Don't be afraid to lean in and try and create a laugh moment. Here's some things to avoid on Instagram. Avoid announcements and graphics. Okay? Those just simply don't perform very well and people do not get on social media to be announced at or have been told what's coming up next.

Nick Clason (15:14):
If all you're doing on your social media is announcing things and reminding people about events, change your strategy. There is a way to incorporate announcements but still use the medium of the day. So, for example, you can do trending meme sounds, dances, things like that, that are reals, that are tos. However you can do those that are funny about like the upcoming event. So for example, last summer or spring as we were leading into summer camp, there was a, a trending sound that I found that is something like, it smells like a public restroom in here. And I just created a thing with like a green screen background, like a cabin type vibe, right? And I said, P o v, which stands for point of view pov middle school boys cabin at camp. And then I posted it, right? That's a, that's a camp adjacent announcement.

Nick Clason (16:03):
It's different than just a graphic for hey Santa for summer camp, right? But, uh, it still gets to point across. So don't just post graphics and announcements. Also with whatever you do, avoid stock footage. You may now have photos of people send someone this week to take photos of people in your church and boom, you'll have photos of people. Please while you are getting things up and running on your website or your Instagram, avoid photos of people because it's disingenuine. It's not who your church is. It's not true representation of the people in your church. It is a paid version of the people in your church. So do not use stock footage, especially on the Instagram feed. What do we do about stories? I would still use stories. Um, and I used to be all in on a story strategy and try and posting something every single day.

Nick Clason (16:50):
Uh, you still can be, but with as many reels as I post now I can supplement kind of some of that content. We'll get that to that in a minute. Um, bond stories I would recommend using the just the Instagram stories editor. You can use things like the question sticker. You can use things like the poll sticker. The link sticker, which is an amazing resource to have. The emoji slider tool. Like how much do you like this? All the way up, all the way down countdowns. You can do takeovers, like I said. Uh, you can spam your stories during big events. Spam is just a turmoil, like you just overwhelm it and you have so many little dots across the top. Um, you can give it over to a friend, a volunteer, a student to, to post to, to make it feel like you are in the moment of the event.

Nick Clason (17:34):
You can also kind of create a little bit of FOMO with that. So I definitely recommend still using and utilizing your Instagram stories feature. It's a place where you can post content that doesn't have to go on your feet and kind of like live there forever. Finally, Instagram reels. You know that my preferred strategy personally is to post three Instagram reels a day. And when I say Instagram reels often I post it in TikTok first, then I copy the link, then I go to a browser that says download, um, download TikTok video without watermark, paste the link in there, download it, and then I go post it over to Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube shorts. Yes, there's a lot of manual work and very recently, and we're gonna do a review on this here soon, I've come across a, um, posting tool for you. And so right now I'm trying a third party service and I don't like it very much.

Nick Clason (18:29):
And I'll tell you why in a minute. In a future episode, I'm gonna also try posting some stuff through the native apps, um, of TikTok of the Meta Business suite, uh, to see if that does anything for me. However, I'm just gonna be honest with you, I like posting in live time. Yeah, sometimes it's annoying cuz it, you know, I'm reminded I have to do it and it pops up at a very inconvenient time, but I still like that idea and I can edit things right on my phone that way. Otherwise I have to do all of my editing, a hundred percent of my editing in like, uh, computer software and, and save it to a hard drive somewhere to access it later. And, and that's sometimes a little bit inconvenient, but you should be leaning into Instagram real content. You can use it to supplement what goes on your feet.

Nick Clason (19:13):
You can use it to supplement what goes in your stories and I would definitely recommend, um, going all in on it. So just a quick reminder and recap. What I do and what I use on my personal Instagram at our church is we do a me Monday, which are photos on the feed. We do a Tuesday message recap from the previous Wednesday. Remember, we're a student ministry. That's a reel. I also post that to my feed Wednesday night. I do a either a carousel post of 10 photos of students or a highlight video, um, of that night and post that to the feed. If I don't post a video to the feed, it's cuz I posted photos, but I'm still posting the reel. Uh, Thursday we do a recap video of the message from the night before. And then on Friday I like to do, um, a photo dump of the Wednesday.

Nick Clason (20:00):
So that's, if I, if I don't do it on Wednesday, I'll save it for Friday and do a photo dump there on Friday. Then I'll inter intermix, uh, different, uh, story stuff, like mostly just real, uh, stuff, things, honestly, I go to reels, things that don't perform super well, and I repost 'em to my story so that people still see them. Uh, and then I'll do a takeover once a week. And that's primarily our Instagram strategy for now. So most of it's kind of built out and happening over in Instagram reels, a few things on feed to make sure that we're still showing up and stories, but the most, most of it's all kind of happening reels. And you, you look here, like we do, uh, a photo dump and a meme post. And that's basically it for like static photo posts. Hey, well once again, thanks for sticking around to the end of the episode.

Nick Clason (20:46):
Hey, to all of you on YouTube, hello to all of you listening and your earbuds on a run. So glad that you joined us. We are done with social media. We have one final, uh, area. We're gonna focus on website and, uh, text messaging and email and how do those all work together with social media. And then we're gonna put it all together. So join us in the next episode. So we have done, uh, YouTube, we have done TikTok, we've done Facebook, we've done Instagram. We will do those other platforms, website, social media, uh, website, texting and email. And then finally, part six, we're gonna put it all together and say, Hey, here is your church content, social media strategy for 2023. So glad you joined us. Hey, if you have not grabbed your e-book, how to create a TikTok from start to finish. As you heard in this episode, it, Instagram is still very much in on reels.

Nick Clason (21:37):
So if you need to create some reels, uh, you can do that and learn how to do that through the TikTok editor and by posting a TikTok and do it all on TikTok, download it. Boom, go over post it on a reel. So there you go. There's your ebook. Go check that out at our website, link in the description below. Subscribe wherever you're listening, subscribe maybe wherever you're watching. So good that you joined us, we would love it if you could drop a five star rating or review just to help us get the word out. We want more people to become aware of the incredible message of Jesus, how important it is to be leaning into the hybrid hybridization of your church. I'll just add some friends over last night from our, from the church I work at, they're all a little bit younger and every single one of 'em was like, yeah, we want more hybrid. We're all trying to think and lean into that direction. So, uh, it is the wave of the future, so don't shy away from it. Try to lean into it. Try something new this week and don't forget, and as always, stay.

Everything you need at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Follow Along on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
Or on TikTok at: http://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Hybrid Ministry Discussion on the Barna E-Book Episode: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/006

TIMECODES
00:00-01:31 Intro
01:31-08:03 Assumption: Social Media isn't relational
08:03-15:13 Let's define Hybrid Ministry
15:13-17:24 How are real relationships hybrid?
17:24-20:00 The Best Hybrid versions in our culture
20:00-31:48 The Best Hybrid Ideas for Churches in 2023
31:48-33:00 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:03):
Well, what is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast, and now on YouTube. Excited to be with you all. We're gonna test out a couple of video options here. See how these go. I know it'll go fine. Mostly I'm testing to see how much extra work it's gonna be. But, um, would love to have you join us over there if you want to check out for video stream as well. Something that is just another option. So we have audio, we have video but everything, the home base for it is http://hybridministry.xyz of course, cuz hybrid ministry.com was taken. So I'm your host, Nick Clason, excited to be with you. And in today's episode, what I actually wanted to discuss was this idea of why should churches even care about digital and hybrid ministry? Like what is the purpose?

Nick Clason (01:03):
We all saw the pitfalls downfalls and the reasons why digital ministry was not a good example. It was not a good thing during Covid. And so we are now past Covid. We're able to live in a more semi-normal world. Why in the world should churches even care about digital? So let's go ahead and let's get this episode underway. So let's talk about some assumptions, right? Like, I think that there are some general social media specific assumptions that say that social media is void of relationship, right? Like, the point of it is, I, I I don't know, right? Like the point of it is maybe to post some announcements and try and drum up some external, some marketing, so to speak, uh, examples of people who might not go to our church and we want to get them connected to our church.

Nick Clason (02:08):
But there's an assumption that like the real, the main thing that's gonna work is gonna be relationships of people to people inviting one another. Let me just say that, um, I've been doing student ministry social media now for 12 years, and never once has anyone of the accounts that I've ever run really gone viral, so to speak. Like we've never had more than like an inordinate amount of followers, never had more like a thousand followers. I have had a couple Instagram accounts with more than a thousand followers, but honestly like, that was not from anything that I, or we were doing. That was more an inherited thing where the Instagram account already had a high level of followers and we were just sort of like the beneficiaries of that account already having a lot of followers. So my point is nothing we did really drummed up a lot of outside interest.

Nick Clason (03:03):
Okay. And so this assumption that social media is not relationship based and you know, the purpose of it is to, you know, get people from the outside looking in. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that is, I think that's, I think that's a benefit. I think that, um, like we said in the last episode, the church is in a unique intersection where what you post can be both discovered by the people that go to your church, but also because of the new discovery algorithms, which this is probably why in my 12 years we haven't seen this, because these new algorithms that are being made famous by TikTok and then adopted by Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube on reels and shorts are, um, new. Like this is a new territory for churches because previously your people followed your pages and your accounts, and if you wanted more people to follow it, you had to pay for it.

Nick Clason (03:52):
And I've, I have never done that. And so my accounts never really did that, where there were like a lot of people coming to discover our accounts. And so now we are in a unique intersection where people might actually discover your church. And what's more interesting is that all of these algorithms, there's a uniqueness where they start out geographically local. So first the algorithm from what we've learned is they're pumped out to your followers, which are then pumped out to their followers, which are then pumped out to the, uh, like your geographical region, which is why a lot of times you can geotag your posts on Instagram, on TikTok, and so you can put your city, and so the people in your city might be exposed to your information first, and then beyond that it'll, you know, go to the state and viral and whatever the case might be.

Nick Clason (04:44):
But, but the reality is, the, the closer that you are, the more likely that the people around you are gonna find it. And so therefore, if people in your geographical region are discovering your videos, there is an actual chance that they might hear the message of Jesus from you and then take a step to become a visitor or a first timer at your church. I mean, wouldn't that be amazing? Wouldn't that, wouldn't that be one of the goals that we're looking for here? Um, and again, like I said, I haven't experienced that in a lot of cases, and I think that's because that really wasn't an option up here until very recently. Um, however, there's still the argument that like, no one's gonna come to our church based off of that. And that might be true. And I think that it depends on your style of church, if you're, um, a more of an outreach centric church that you want that.

Nick Clason (05:34):
And so you're gonna be more gung-ho about this idea. And if you're more of a discipleship centric church, which tends to be a little more inward facing, um, not because you believe that that's more valuable and more important, but that just tends to be the vibe, um, that comes with it, then you are gonna prioritize some of those relationships more over, um, like, like cold leads or, or, you know, top of a funnel marketing type of terminology to borrow from the secular world. So, um, all that to be said, there's this assumption, there's this notion that social media, um, and social ministry is void of real relationships. And I would just, I would debunk that and say that I think that that's not entirely true. Um, I agree to a point that it can be done that way and, um, that, that this ministry, that this focus in your church needs some very particular and very, um, deliberate attention.

Nick Clason (06:34):
Like it cannot just, in my personal opinion, it cannot be put on autopilot anymore. It cannot be put on the back burner. There needs to be a person more than a volunteer and more than someone's like, uh, section of their full-time hours devoted to social media. Like you probably need a full-on person, um, not someone to do double duty. Like, like even right now, um, I am a youth pastor, but I'm like on a team of three and of the three, I'm the one tasked with digital and video and social media, website, whatever, right? Like that in and of itself is a full-time job. And sometimes my youth ministry duties have actually, like, you know, this week I had to make calls to interview students about baptism, um, and we're onboarding a bunch of new students to volunteer. Like sometimes those things feel like they're in the way of my digital stuff and that, that's out of balance for me personally.

Nick Clason (07:34):
Um, but that's my point in saying that this digital of it's all consuming, it just takes up such a gigantic portion and it it is vast and it is huge. And, um, and there's a lot of opportunity and there's a lot of potential. And so to just dump it on someone as like a, hey, 10 hours of your week, like it's, that is so hard. It's gonna be very difficult for that person to be able to, you know, to make, to make, uh, that 10 hours work for them the way that you're probably hoping that it would work. So in Covid, right, we learned that we're not built to be completely isolated. And so just social, um, and that's, that's the whole, that's the whole origin of this podcast is I felt like we were debating, um, when I started this podcast in late 2022, I guess mid 2022, um, we were debating between in-person ministry and digital ministry, especially where I was, we had, we were still working and operating out of a lot of the rules that we had built for C O V with the show that we had made for C O V D.

Nick Clason (08:38):
Like, we hadn't let that go. We were still producing it weekly. Um, and we had found a way to pivot from strictly online to a more in-person model where groups watched it in host homes. Um, and then they discussed the, the message afterwards. And I thought it was incredibly ingenious and innovative. Um, but there were a lot of people in our church that that didn't, and they were ready to just quote unquote go back. And, you know, we had a, a marketing guy, and if you listen to some of our first, I think like seven episodes, um, Matt was actually the co-host of this podcast. Uh, we both made cross-country moves. And, um, I, I don't know what happened to him. I never got him back, really. I mean, we still talk, but he would keep saying like, yeah, yeah, I just gotta get my computer set up, gotta get my computer set up.

Nick Clason (09:22):
And eventually I was like, all right, Matt's not getting his computer set up. I'm just, I I got a produce weekly episode, so I can't wait on him anymore, right? So, uh, here we are and I'm just kinda doing this thing. Anyway, besides point Matt marketing, honestly, genius guru in my opinion. He said, the world we live in is now hybrid. In fact, Barna did a study, we did a couple episodes on it, I'll link to them in the show notes, um, did a couple episodes on the findings that we found from Barna study, and they, they titled it the, the state of hybrid church or something like that. And what it said, what it found was that especially the younger generations, the generations that are going to be filling our pews and churches here in the next couple years, gen Z and millennials said a hybrid, um, version of church is going to suit them very well.

Nick Clason (10:11):
What that often scares us with on two fronts is, number one, it feels like we're shifting away from in person. And I think a lot of times in person, and I've talked about this multiple times, I think a lot of times in person, room or moment or feeling is for the, the vanity of the pastor, and not even in like a sinful or bad way, but just like, man, getting up in front of a room full of people feels really good and you feel like you feel like you've done something and you've been somewhere and there's, there's a shot of like adrenaline into your like arm every time you get up there to preach. Even I, I find myself like finding more value from preaching to a live room of, of humans with interaction, um, like just, you know, face-to-face interaction. Um, then I, then I do from a, a TikTok video that goes viral wave over like 3000 something views.

Nick Clason (11:02):
Like, it just, it doesn't feel the same. And I get it. And you know what? I don't know that it is the same. I think you have a much more captive audience, even in a room of a few hundred than you do, um, with a, a short form under 62nd video that that has over a thousand something views, right? All that to be said, I'm not proposing that, that you throw one quote unquote baby out with a bathwater. We live in a hybrid world, right? So I found this stat incredibly fascinating. 76% of American surveyed ha uh, have a friend that they've met online only they've never met in person. Right? Now, you might be thinking, how is that possible? Again, if you're older, think younger generations gaming and, and you know, chat rooms and whatever and whatnot. Like of course in the nineties chat rooms were pedophiles want to hang out, and they probably still do, right?

Nick Clason (11:55):
But, but 76% of Americans have a friend in some way, shape or form gaming social media that they've never met in person. Like I have an anecdotal real example. I have a friend named Dan that, um, for the first three to six months of our life, or not life of our relationship life, , uh, it was strictly online. Uh, many of you know I've told this story, but I started at my last church on day one of Covid and went immediately into lockdown. So the number of real live human beings at my church that I met was very, very small. The number of real life human beings that I met on Zoom after that was very, very large. And, um, you know, I had met a decent number of the staff, at least from my interview or on my first day on the job, but then to meet other people.

Nick Clason (12:49):
And Dan was a, just a regular church attender volunteer who led a, a hybrid, not hybrid, actually strictly online small group. I had a relationship with Dan. Um, and, and he even said, he's like, you are like the poster child for me, or the poster example of what it looks like for somebody who, uh, says like, you can't make friends with someone online. He's like, we totally made friends, you know, with each other online. And so these are examples, both empirical data. 76% of Americans say, I have a friend with someone who's completely online. And even in my own life, like I would say I had a real relationship with him, um, it would've been great to be sitting in the same living room or whatever, but at the same time, you know what, every Tuesday night, I just got my laptop out in the comfort of my own home brew, a cup of my own coffee that I personally enjoyed more than like a cake cup that someone was gonna gimme at their house.

Nick Clason (13:49):
And we sat down for small group. And you know, what was funny was like our church would do this thing where like you'd watch the live stream on YouTube, and this was the archetype for our student ministry. The group's team of course, stole it, but we'd watch the video on YouTube, and then everyone would log in to their campus specific zooms via a link in the description, and then a moderator there would break everyone out into breakout rooms. So they would sort of have control over the entire call, and then they would give a warning after like an hour or so that all the groups would, uh, be, be closing down by the moderator who's just literally sitting there out in the waiting room, just kinda waiting for people to be kicked out of their breakout rooms and reassign them or whatever. Super boring job I've done a million times youth ministry.

Nick Clason (14:33):
Uh, so a couple times those ended and we, our entire small group just jumped off and got into our very own room, and had group until like 11 or 12. We weren't, you know, at that point we weren't talking about spiritual stuff. We were just joking around, goofing off, having fun, whatever, right? My point is, relationships can exist in an online space. You just have to be deliberate. You just have to be intentional, and you have to be able, willing, willing to massage those relationships. So let's talk about, um, some hybrid ways that relationships can exist.

Nick Clason (15:14):
So some of you might know this, um, but a couple weeks ago, my, my wife's mom, my mother-in-law, uh, passed away from a two plus year long battle with cancer. It was, it was rough, man, like, not gonna lie, but, um, the thing I wanna kind of extract or highlight is the moment that the day that she passed away and that it became more public because of social media. Again, another example, um, my phone was flooded with text messages. My wife's phone was flooded like threefold, tenfold with text messages. Um, every single one of those people were people that we had met in person at one moment in time or another, whether they be a family member, whether they'd be a friend, whether they'd be a former colleague or work associate from another job that we'd been at. They'd all been people we'd met in real life person before.

Nick Clason (16:12):
However, the relationship at that moment existed in a hybrid space. Very few people in that exact moment were with us. I mean, I, I had to drive from Texas all the way back to Ohio, so the only people with me were me and my two kids. Um, and her, she was with her sister and with some family friends, and then everybody else reached out and provided love and care and support via text message that that is an example of a hybrid relationship. You know what I mean? Um, and, and some people were people that I work with now at the church I'm at at now. Other people were people I worked, worked with in the past that reached out either way, right? Like they're all people I knew, but they're all showing up for me in a hybrid way. So, uh, I wanna talk about a few, uh, examples of like other businesses that we might interact with in the world in with hybrid sort of interactions.

Nick Clason (17:22):
Let's dive in examples of real life hybrid interactions. My favorite of this is Home Depot, right? I interact with Home Depot at the store level. I drive up, I go into the store, I grab 98 cents of plumbing tape, right? Uh, that's an example of me interacting with Home Depot at a physical level. Okay? All right. So another example of course is me interacting with Home Depot at an online level. I might go on the website and I might see how much of a certain item is in stock that, but I'm not in the store. I'm completely in my house. I'm looking at all my computer on the app, but the, the app actually is my favorite feature. When I'm in the store. I almost never, like, if I walk around in the store for like more than two minutes and I can't figure out where an item might be, I immediately pull up the app, which often I've uninstalled from my phone, so I reinstall it.

Nick Clason (18:25):
Then I like, almost, the first thing I do when I walk into Home Depot is begin to reinstall the Home Depot app, find my local Home Depot, the one I'm physically standing in, and then I look that item up, whatever it is, to try and find it, and then it'll tell me exactly where it is, what aisle, what bay, and how many more they have in stock. I love that feature. That's hybrid. I'm in person, I'm in the store, but I'm interacting with a digital piece of technology, uh, you know, for my relationship with Home Depot. Another o another example is a dentist office, right? You go to a physical visit. But I love when a service like this has a great website, especially for being able to book appointments or being able to reach out. This last week, I brought my car to an auto mechanic shop.

Nick Clason (19:13):
I called them, not there, called them, right? That's an example of me from my house calling them. That's old school technology. You get it right? Then I show up, I'm in their office. But then when I was done, you know what they did? They sent me a text message to let me know that my car was ready. You see all these things, and I, I think like in a lot of ways, like when we talk about digitization or hybridization of church and of ministry, we don't even know what that looks like. So right now, in a lot of ways that's social media, that's video content, but the reality is like, some of this is uncharted territory. So for 2023, for right now, for someone just starting out, what are some examples? What are some ways that your church can live and exist in hybrid ministry?

Nick Clason (20:01):
All right, so like I said, I think a little bit of this is like pioneering uncharted territory, pilgrim's progress. Like, we don't know some of these answers, but, um, what are some examples of ways that your church can, uh, live and and be hybrid? So the first one is probably the most obvious one, and probably the easiest one, I would say is your Sunday sermon. Okay? So what are ways that your Sunday sermon can exist in a hybrid space? Well, first and foremost, right? You can, while someone is sitting in the auditorium, they can interact with and engage with your sermon notes, or they can interact and engage with, um, some self-guided like outlines or ways for them to take notes. So, like in my church, my pastor puts his notes on our church app. Um, it's honestly, it's essentially probably the manuscript that he's up there preaching with as I've looked at it.

Nick Clason (20:58):
Like, it's very thorough. Um, and my guess is that that's like a, that's a workload decision, right? Like he already built this. So if he just copy, if, if they or someone just copy and paste and put this into the app, uh, that's not that much more work for him. My personal favorite example is the you version events feature. So in everyone's you version Bible app that most people have downloaded on their phones, if not, definitely recommend it. Cause again, it's another way to interact with people in a hybrid way. Um, there's an events tab that you can create, like a self-guided sort of outline, and then people can, can take and add notes to certain headers or certain bible verses, um, that, that are related to or interact with the passage. And then they can also link out to like videos or other, like further discussions.

Nick Clason (21:51):
One of the things I try to do is I try to challenge myself to add one option of a, a link out from a u version event for deeper study or for more information, or for a longer YouTube video that I didn't, you know, didn't have time to show or didn't have time to look like fully, you know, unpack. I try to challenge myself to do that every week. Again, to just think hybrid, right? Brady Shearer has made this phrase famous, but the other, the additional 167 hours of somebody's week. So then beyond that moment, beyond that Sunday service, um, you can of course rip out the audio. Um, if you're already live streaming, um, you can have live stream, you can post those videos to YouTube. You can, uh, long form podcast content on a podcast feed. That's a way for it to be hybrid.

Nick Clason (22:45):
And then finally, ways for that to live on and, and find its way into that, that intersection of your church, people being reminded of the message and people from outside your church may be discovering and stumbling upon your message are short form Instagram reels, TikTok videos, YouTube shorts. Um, if you're already live streaming your content, you're sitting on a goldmine of social media content. You don't have to, uh, come up with as much social media content as you did in the past. You already have it. You have the short, or you have the long form video. Clip it up into minute segments. Find a good hook, get a good editor. And, uh, hey, if you don't have a good editor, but you're interested in it, reach out. Um, I'm interested in, uh, starting something, you know, kind on the side for myself to be doing this and serving churches in that, that way.

Nick Clason (23:38):
Um, I don't exactly have a framework for that or what that looks like. Hit me up on dms, on TikTok, or, you know, reach out to me via YouTube, all those links in the show notes@hybridministry.xyz. What about groups? What about relationships? How do you hybridize relationships, right? Because that's sort of the basis for this whole thing, is that social isn't, isn't built on relationships. And I would agree with that in the nitty gritty. Like when, you know, when my mother-in-law passes away, I want someone to really show up for me or really call me or really, you know, text me, um, not just, you know, interact with them at a, at a digital or social social media type level, right? But for a lot of people, the discovering of groups or finding their place or finding their people, that's half of the battle. And so if your church does not have some sort of group finder, I, I would highly recommend doing that.

Nick Clason (24:36):
If your church is about groups in some way, shape, or form that are open that people opt themselves into, then get yourself a group finder, a catalog, if you will, of the options available at your church for people to find and discover real authentic community. Because you and I know that community is really what changes things. It's what takes a church from their church to my church. So get on a group finder of some way, shape, or form. And then once you're in those groups, here are other ways that, that those groups exist and live in a hybrid sort of sense. You might use a infrastructure like Facebook group, you might use a GroupMe, you might use a group chat, or you might use some other tool feature that someone's gonna develop down the road. Maybe I'll do it and get rich, I don't know.

Nick Clason (25:23):
But, um, for the groups to have some sort of calendar of events, a place for them to have message boards with announcements, um, text messages to interact back and forth, prayer requests, all kinds of different stuff, but a place for the group to live beyond when the group meets, right? Again, the other 167 hours of that group's relationship. When is that? Where is that? When does that take place? The last area, so we talked about sermons, we talked about relationships. Now let's talk about information. You know, uh, churches more than just information people are distilled down to more than just the information that they, uh, put into their brains, okay? But like another example of ways that, that things can exist in a hybrid sort of way is some classes. So you already have your Sunday morning service. You probably already have groups. People probably can't devote too many more hours to the church, but maybe they do want to grow.

Nick Clason (26:24):
Maybe they want to grow in their knowledge of theology, or maybe they want to grow in, in a specific topic. Um, a dating marriage, right? Whatever the case might be. Your church with the 40 hours a week in your office can film some content and, and put up a catalog or a library of courses, like on a website or on an app, six week course, eight week course, something like that. So again, if someone's really committed, they may not have the time to drive back over to your church and sit through a class, find childcare, all the things. But once the kids go to bed, if they wanna pull up in their laptop and learn more, grow more in the area of theology, love, dating, marriage, spiritual gifts, right? Like you name it, you can offer a library of some of those content. I mean, products already sort of exist for that right now for churches, right now.

Nick Clason (27:14):
Media is an example of it. Um, but again, I've found that to be more small groupy content. So you can create something, you, if there's a need, you can scratch that itch, a leadership type academy. And you might even have like a leadership academy for high level leaders in your, in your, um, organization in your church that come together every so often in person. But then after they come together, if the primary goal of it is, is information and knowledge, um, and then, and information transfer, you can accomplish that for sure. You can accomplish that in a hybrid sort of way. Um, more than just short form video sermon content. You can provide short form, social media, TikTok, YouTube type content. Um, like about any topic right now, I'm doing like a little bit of a theology 1 0 1, like a deep dive into like certain areas and elements.

Nick Clason (28:06):
Um, and I'm putting posting on TikTok two times a week. It's a little mini-series that people probably just like randomly scrolling through, aren't gonna notice that they're all like interwoven and connected together. But in my mind they are. And so anyone who sees it, they're, they're gonna learn something more about God or about Jesus, or about creation or about salvation, or about the Holy Spirit or whatever the case might be. Um, because I don't have time to always get into all that, right? Like whatever our series is that's sort of driving and dictating, um, what's, what's being taught from the platform. But there are other necessary things that I think people, my students need to know that I don't have time for it, but this is a way that I can create time for it in the other hours of the week. Um, there are also examples and ways to do longform, you know, uh, styles not just short form.

Nick Clason (28:57):
So audio podcasts are huge. A lot of adults, something like 80 something percent of adults listen to three hours of podcasts a week. So, um, I think, um, Mariners, like Eric Geiger out of Mariners is doing a phenomenal job because the thing I love about him is he's conservative theologically for sure. Um, and so he's not just like out there trying to like get vanity metrics or whatever, right? But the thing he's doing is he's, he's finding ways to use the technology to teach deeper, more robust, you know, truth. And so he's doing a thing like, uh, a podcast called like the, the things that didn't make it into the sermon. Basically, if you're a pastor and you've done this before, you know that you, you prepare a load of content, but then you have to start cutting to get it down to a certain minute mark, right?

Nick Clason (29:46):
So he's doing a podcast on all the things he had to cut from his sermon, um, once a week to just dive deeper into more information. Um, and I, I think that that's brilliant. You know, I think that's a brilliant way, uh, to just add more value to the, the people in your church's, you know, life. Um, and if they're interested in it, that's great. A couple years ago, we, back when Facebook Live was a really big thing, me and another pastor on my staff, we sat, sat down for a thing called Tuesdays at two, and we just, uh, unpacked the sermon from sort of our eyes and our, our vantage point, you know? Um, and we would just have a conversation, um, as sort of interview style. And I mean, he was a licensed biblical counselor, so, uh, he was just a wealth of knowledge.

Nick Clason (30:31):
And so I, I almost operated more like as the host, and I would just toss him questions and let him sort of like unpack and untangle, you know, take the, the theology or the, the preaching and, and bring it down to more of like a boots on the ground level. At least. At least that was the goal. So all kinds of like ideas out there of ways that you can service and serve your congregation in a hybrid sort of way that is not void of relationship, that is meaningful and that people in your church will take advantage of. You just have to think hybrid. So I'd encourage you lean into it. Like I said, we're on the, a little bit the pioneering front because we had solutions for digital pre covid. It was mostly live streaming your service. Then in C O V I D, we all went full bore into it, and it was uncomfortable and unfamiliar.

Nick Clason (31:24):
Um, and so once restrictions lifted, we went back to what was familiar. Many of us went back to what was familiar, and I'll just encourage you to not abandon some of those things, but, but listen for and look for ways that you can show up in the other hours of your church members weeks. Those are gonna be what's important and valuable to them. Well, hey everyone, if you found this, uh, podcast helpful, please share it with a friend. Help us get the word out, http://hybridministry.xyz. We provide complete full show transcripts for every single episode that we've ever produced. Also, head to the blog section of that and you can grab our free social media checklist, what to do every time you post a social media, and our free complete guide to posting a TikTok from scratch, from start to finish. That is on there. And again, we are on YouTube now at this episode being the first one. Hey, to everyone on YouTube, check that out if you will get a link for that as in the show notes. And until next time, talk to y'all later. Stay hybrid.

For complete transcripts head to http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Follow along on social https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Or YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@sonicsman8/featured

TIMECODES
00:00-00:32 Intro
00:32-03:23 The Church has the Advantage on Social Media in 2023
03:23-05:50 The History of Social Media
05:50-06:50 The Stars have aligned in 2023 for churches on social media
06:50-09:53 - Advantage #1: Content Creation is at the Core of a Church's Weekly Work Routine
09:53-12:51 - Advantage #2: Content Creation is at the Core of the Senior Leader's weekly job
12:51-19:05 - Advantage #3: Content Creation, and the sharing of it, hits at a preferred intersection for churches
19:05-20:52 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What is up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I, as always, am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be with you wherever you are. Listen, I was gonna stay excited to be with you on this morning. I just got done with a little morning run, drinking a little morning coffee. Uh, but you might be listening to me in the evening. You might be listening to me while you're doing dishes. You, you also might be listening to me on run, wherever you are listening, said to have you with us, uh, this morning. Today, I wanted to talk about the three distinct advantages that churches have on social media in 2023. If you are anything like me, uh, the people that you follow, the algorithms that you're in especially if you've listened to the Pro Church tools or anything that Brady Shearer produces.

Nick Clason (00:52):
You have heard this before but in the event that you're not and I have some unique twists to it as well. I just think that wherever, wherever you are, wherever your role is, whether if you're like a ministry leader, a, a student pastor, a senior pastor, a church marketing person, a church communications person, whatever your role is, I think it's important to note that the church today in 2023 has a distinct advantage on social media, an advantage that they haven't had in, I would say, years. Um, in all my entire time as, um, a church leader, a pastor, youth pastor, I've never experienced or noticed an advantage much like what we have today. So, um, I'm excited to share that with you Before we dive in. Um, anything that you need show wise, you can head to hybrid ministry.xyz. Um, if you click on the, uh, articles or the blog section there of the website, that is where you can access our completely 100% free ebook and our 100% free checklist signing up for either one of those will get both of those resources into your inbox automatically for free.

Nick Clason (02:03):
So go check those out. We would love to have you there. And if you didn't know this, every single episode that we have, uh, has transcripts and is, um, put on, on the website into every episode's archive. And so that is a just completely 100% free resource that we make available to you so that you can go back and not have to listen back through, but you can read through. Um, and let me just warn you that because, uh, this podcast is still, you know, I'm still not making money on it. It's something that I am paying for out of my pocket. I have not, I have not paid Rev, who I use rev.com. I've not paid them to do the human transcription. Yep. So I'm still doing ai. Uh, so even sometimes I go back to my own archives to look for things, but, uh, sometimes it's a little bit hard to muddle through because it's AI transcribed.

Nick Clason (02:53):
So sorry for that. If you're out there, sponsor us, and, um, maybe we'll start springing for the human transcription so it's got a little bit more level of accuracy. Um, but hey, uh, head to the show notes for anything that we mentioned today. Um, like I said, grab our free ebook on, have I already ruined my TikTok account? A complete Guide to Posting a TikTok from Scratch. 100%. All that being said, let's dive in the three distinct advantages that churches have on social media in 2023. Let's go. All right, so 2023 social media. Here we are. Let's think about it. The church has a distinct advantage, one that they have not seen in a lifetime. I think of a lot of social media. So, um, social media historically has been a social platform, right? That's where the, the term social comes from, because humans are connecting one-on-one with other people on the other side of the screen.

Nick Clason (03:45):
So think Facebook started as a college, uh, on a college campus so that people could get to know one another, that they maybe haven't met people that they recognize by face. So it's very, uh, it was very built as a, uh, human to human connection sort of portal. But over time, it's evolved and it's become sort of like an, an online photo album. Different social platforms have taken on different life forms, Twitter, sort of like a micro blogging, uh, place to kind of like listen and look at things live. Like I, I use Twitter a lot for sports. Instagram was a photo sharing app. Um, and you could, you know, at its inception, you could only share one photo and it could only be Square. And so, um, part of the problem was that Facebook would, would really recommend you creating like, full online albums, like share your entire trip to Brazil with us, where Instagram is like, share the best photo from your trip to Brazil.

Nick Clason (04:36):
And then Twitter was like, while you're there, live tweet, right? So all of those had u had unique and completely different, um, purposes. Then throw in YouTube, which is the second largest search engine in the world. Some would say three behind Google images, but either way, they're all under the Google umbrella. So, um, Instagram, or I'm sorry, YouTube being a search engine, um, and long form video, that's a completely separate piece and style of content that is needed from Facebook, from Instagram, from Twitter. And then, oh, by the way, here, bursting on the scene is this brand new thing called TikTok, short form video, where people just do dances and goofy silly stuff. So what are we supposed to do with that? So you got photo albums, you got groups and pages over on Facebook. You got micro blogging and live tweeting things. You got Instagram, single photo sharing apps, eventually stories added in.

Nick Clason (05:31):
And then you got YouTube long form video, and they're all different. And so if you're a church leader, and if you're like the senior pastor and you're also keeping your social media afloat, you're just doing whatever it takes to like serve each of the platforms at its bare minimum. But now in this weird aligning of stars in 2023, I would say, because of the, um, prominence and popularity of TikTok, churches have a unique and distinct advantage that they have not had in years. And that is this short form vertical video content is now being pushed across all of the major platforms. Yes, Facebook, yes, Instagram, yes, YouTube, and obviously yes, TikTok. So your core four, your main four players that I would recommend that you as a church be active on, on social media. You can have all four accounts, and better yet, you can post to all four accounts, the exact same piece of content across all four accounts.

Nick Clason (06:37):
And for the first time ever, you're not dinged. In fact, you're encouraged to do that. So let's take a look at reason number one, why the church has a distinct advantage on social media in 2023. So, advantage number one is that content creation is at the core of what a church's weekly work rhythm is. So think about this, your church every single week hosts a gathering where a piece of content is delivered to a group of people. Um, think like, and that is an, that is an amazing advantage that most people don't have, because most, if you're a plumber or if you're an auto mechanic, or if you are a big box store retailer, right? You also want to be on social media. It's part of marketing, it's a part of driving up business and getting clientele and people discovering you. But what in the heck is a plumber or what is a big box store retailer?

Nick Clason (07:39):
Or what is a, um, auto mechanic? What are they doing every single day? They're fixing leaky drains. They're selling things to people as cashiers at Walmart. They're, they're, they're, uh, they're fixing people's cars, timing belts, right? That's what the primary like, focus of their work is. And so if an auto mechanic wants to be active and vibrant and relevant on social media, that auto mechanic is going to probably either a, take his phone with him under the car and do some tutorial videos or something like that. But if that auto mechanic is any good, he's probably really busy and he has, doesn't have time to be posting, editing, putting captions over, you know, screens. So then what does an auto mechanic do? He hires his young Gen z uh, nephew to come in and run social media, but that nephew has never touched a car before.

Nick Clason (08:30):
And so that nephew is just trying to like, keep their Instagram feed posted, um, and keep it active and with like, graphics and things like that, okay? The point is, an auto mechanic is not in the business of content creation. Neither is a plumber, neither is a store. Now, the really good ones are, right? And those are the ones that you probably watch. You have a leaky drain, you go on YouTube or you go on YouTube shorts, you're gonna find a plumber who's done a tutorial that's a really good plumber who's creating some content. But the reality is not a hundred percent of plumbers are doing that. Not a hundred percent of businesses are doing that. Not a hundred percent of auto mechanics are doing that. The church weekly 52, sometimes 51 weeks a year. Cause some churches take that week between Christmas and New Year's and doing online only service, but even still, they're creating content.

Nick Clason (09:16):
So go, I digress back to 52, 52 weeks a year, 52 times in a year, you are creating content to be delivered to somebody that is age old, that has been a part of what the church has done for decades, centuries. Um, the, so the reality is this, right? The reality is that, um, short form video content loves content, loves created, custom curated content, and the church has a unique advantage because it already is creating that content within the rhythm of what it does. Okay? Advantage number two. So not only is content creation at the core of the church's weekly work rhythm, but content creation is at the core of what the senior leadership does within the organization. Let's go back to our plumber or automechanic mechanic analogy. Usually the head, the CEO of the business is not the content creator. So if you as a plumber wanna have a popin TikTok account, you probably have to hire somebody who's good at marketing to create a Popin TikTok account.

Nick Clason (10:27):
If you as a auto mechanic wanna have a Popin TikTok account, you gotta bring in your nephew, okay? Now, maybe your senior pastor isn't very tech savvy. Maybe your senior pastor isn't even very active on social media. But what your senior pastor does is your senior pastor sits down and weekly writes up content. And so the head, the most, um, the, the best figurehead of your entire organization is standing up and presenting a prepared piece of content weekly. We already, we already talked about that, right? But it comes from the very tippy top of your organization. So if you were to bring in your nephew and an auto mechanic shop, the nephew's like, Hey, you should do some tutorial videos. I would imagine the auto mechanics like, bro, I don't have time for that. I get outta here with your newf fangled social media, TikTok video, things like, I, I can't go under the hood with a phone.

Nick Clason (11:26):
I, I don't even know how to work this thing, right? That's the difference. The senior pastor gets up weekly to prepare or to present prepared content to a group of people, to a room full of people. So that bodes well for you. Why does that bode well for you? Because your, your, uh, social media accounts on your, on, um, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, whatever, people probably follow your church because they go to your church. And so therefore, when they see your senior pastor on a video, that's a very recognizable face that's much more recognizable than your church communications person. No offense, that's you watching this, or your digital marketing specialist. Again, no offense if that's you watching this, or even your youth pastor who you handed your phone to and said, Hey, please keep us relevant on social media. They may see the youth pastor preach 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 times a year, but they see the senior pastor preach almost weekly.

Nick Clason (12:21):
And so when they're scrolling through a feed and they see the senior pastor on your social media, he is going to be a very recognizable person. He's also probably your most skilled communicator. So also you can use that to your advantage. Put your most skilled, uh, oral, um, person, oral, uh, presenter out there for the, for both your church people to see, but also for other people to see, which leads us to our third distinct advantage for churches advantage. Number three is that content creation and the sharing of that created content hits at a unique intersection of what most churches are looking to do. So what are most churches looking to do? Well, you can go back to Matthew chapter 28, verse 18 through 20. Jesus says, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.

Nick Clason (13:23):
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age, baked within the great commission, we find something that comes from the greatest commandment. Matthew chapter 22, where Jesus says you are to number one, love the Lord your God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And second, love your neighbor as yourself. What is the church meant to do? The church is meant to help people learn the ways, the methods, the mission, the the content, the character, the competencies of Jesus to adopt those things. So for believers to grow more and more into the image and likeness of Jesus. And also the church is meant to go to make disciples, to reach out beyond our walls, to share and show the love of Jesus. And short form, vertical video content hits at the intersection where both your church people are, and people outside of your walls are living.

Nick Clason (14:19):
And so both are scrolling through social media, both are scrolling through some sort of discovery algorithm on one of the four core social media platforms, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or TikTok. And boom, they're stopped with an inspirational message because it's a weekly thing curated by your senior leadership. And now they are stopping, scrolling and looking at a video and being encouraged, equipped, and discipled. All right, so now what? So with these three distinct advantages, now, what does this mean for you? Well, you might be watching this and you might be, um, a church leader who doesn't have any time to really do anything about that. You might be a, uh, marketing manager and you can't get your senior pastor to let you onto these platforms. So the first thing you need to do is you need to, uh, use a little bit of persuasion maybe, and show some analytics about the popularity of these discovery algorithm, um, apps, and the fact that every single social media platform is pushing and highlighting and promoting this type of content.

Nick Clason (15:21):
The other thing, if you're already live streaming your service, which Covid brought most people into that, um, then take clips, then watch through your sermon and, and take some clips and watch through them. If you are interested in, um, looking through some examples of ones that I have done in my own ministry and for other ministries of places that I am in partnership with, uh, hit me up, reach out to me. Um, you can DM me on Instagram at Clason nick or on TikTok at Clason nick to see some of those examples. Uh, but be looking through your live stream messages to, um, find two or three different clips that you can post and promote a week. Now, what if you're not live streaming? What do you do? Well, you can go back to another episode. I'll drop the, the episode link in the show notes.

Nick Clason (16:08):
But I gave my complete custom setup for it, creating YouTube content for churches on a budget. And the primary thing that I, I recommend is that I recommend that you, uh, pre film your talks. So I'll give you an example. I'm a youth pastor in a, a church with a fairly large auditorium, but we, the auditorium that I'm in is not the main auditorium. So we don't have all the bells and whistles to do a live stream. And so instead of us trying to jimmy rig a phone in the back or figure out a way to like drop $50,000 to retrofit our auditorium, uh, to do a good live stream, I take my camera on my phone, prop it up on a tripod and fill myself or any one of the other people on our team before we deliver the message live on a Wednesday.

Nick Clason (16:53):
So we use that to post on YouTube, and then we go back to that content to edit and, and clip out the things. So the other things that you need to be doing, um, as you're listening to sermons, is you wanna be listening to things that are good hooks. Uh, so yesterday I was sitting in a sermon, I was sitting in my, my church's sermon, um, and I heard my pastor give this analogy, this five finger analogy of how to learn and, and know and memorize God's word better. And I thought, boom, that's an amazing reel. So I'm gonna go find it and I'm gonna clip it up. Um, and so if you're interested in that, head to my TikTok or head to, uh, my Instagram to check out example of that or just DM me for the link, I'll show it to you Again, that's Instagram, TikTok.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Um, and my handle is at Clason, c l a s o n, Nick, n i c k. So, um, and then, uh, hone your editing skills. Here's the beautiful thing. If you don't have the, the best software to do it on a computer, you can do most of it on the TikTok app. So you can bring clips into your TikTok app and use the studio, uh, feature to edit that. Again, if you don't know how to do it. If you've never opened TikTok before and you're like, what in the world am I looking at? Head to the link in my show notes and grab our free ebook on how to edit and post a TikTok completely from start to finish. It will show you how to use the studio feature in TikTok, how to edit and how to, um, create clips that matter, that grab people's attention.

Nick Clason (18:22):
Um, and that stop the scroll. The biggest thing you're looking for when you're clipping things up is not just to put little clips of your pastor out there, but you're looking to find a good hook. And either your pastor says a hook creates a good hook in his talking, or if he doesn't, you can use that, that famous voiceover feature and say, um, you know, using like the AI auto sound thing, this is like five ways to memorize and learn scripture. Cuz I don't know that my pastor gave a good hook for that. So I'll do that, probably voiceover effect and then boom, I'll clip his thing up and I mean, he took probably five minutes on it and I'm gonna clip it down into under 60 seconds. So I'm just gonna make it quick, quick cuts fast, uh, memorable, and boom, it's gonna be out there.

Nick Clason (19:05):
So if you found this helpful, glad you're here. Thanks for jumping in. Listen, you have the message and hope that is available to the entire world. So don't be afraid or ashamed or shy to share it. Use social media. Um, lean in to hybrid to get the message of God's people out there, both to remind and remember, um, or to remind your disciples, the people in your congregation about the message from Sunday to be encouraged throughout the week, to continue to take steps more and more in their faith, to look more and more like Jesus and to reach those around us who maybe have not yet found the hope of Jesus, but can find that through the body and work of a local church. And you are directly in the intersection of that. Whatever your role is, pastor, youth pastor, digital specialist, church communications person, excited to have you with us on the journey.

Nick Clason (20:02):
We clip up little, uh, clips of these every single episode and drop 'em onto my personal TikTok at Cliff and Nicki can grab the link there in the show notes. Uh, we will have transcripts for this episode at http://hybridministry.xyz wherever you listen to this on whatever podcast platform catcher. Glad to have you with us. Glad you're listening in your ear holes. If you found this helpful, would you rate it, leave a comment, and maybe share with the, so that they also can, uh, learn about the importance people around. And we will talk to you next time. Stay Hybrid.

SHOWNOTES
For all things Hybrid Ministry head to http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Hangout with Nick:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick

FREE E-Book: "Have I already Ruined my TikTok Account?"
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook

The Best YouTube strategy for 2023 and Beyond!
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/021

TIMECODES
00:00-03:16 Intro
03:16-05:04 The Theology of Preaching
05:04-09:17 The high calling of being a preacher of God's Word
09:17-10:30 God has chosen to speak
10:30-13:58 God has chosen surrogate voices
13:58-18:45 What is preaching?
18:45-30:47 The purpose of the Church
30:47-37:31 Can you share the message of Jesus online?
37:31-38:47 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
Well, hey there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be here with you. And I just wanted to invite you, if you have not yet, check out our website http://www.hybridministry.xyz. If you didn't know, we have complete show transcripts that we have created a hundred percent just for you. Um, those are a hundred percent free for you. They're not free to produce, but they are a free gift that we do for every single episode. So if you're like me, where you probably are listening while you're driving or running or exercising or cooking or biking, and then you hear something and you want to, uh, recall it or write it down or take a note or quote or something like that, you can do that through the transcripts. Now, full disclosure, the transcripts are AI and automated automatically generated.

Nick Clason (00:57):
And so sometimes they're not the most reliably transcribed, but they are still a good tool and you usually be able to figure out and get to the right place. with those other thing I wanna invite you to do is if you have not yet checked out our 100% free ebook that we created, called Have I Ruined My Church's TikTok account just yet? You know, there's a lot of speculation, um, and maybe worry when you log onto TikTok, like, am I doing this right? Is this how this is supposed to look? Did I do this thing wrong? And I just wanna encourage you to grab this ebook, and the answer is probably no. Um, but we'll help you, we'll help you, uh, take your first step post your first TikTok, because the world of vertical and short form video content is not going anywhere.

Nick Clason (01:51):
Um, in fact, it is so saturated in all of the major markets, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, that for the first time in a very long time, you can post identical content on all four of those platforms. And they will not ding you, they will not take away because you're posting something that was built for another platform while short form and vertical video content was made popular by TikTok. The other platforms are all trying to chase that down and bring that this discovery algorithm into their framework. And so they are Fran frantically trying to make that a reality and trying to make that happen. And so, um, the church has a unique opportunity to not only grow on social media, but take a medium and a platform that prioritizes this, uh, short form video content speaking directly into a camera. Um, which is something that the church has the ability to do quite easily.

Nick Clason (02:52):
Like if you think about it in the past, right? Uh, churches would have, uh, so like have to figure out a way to make graphics, figure out a way to have to get photographers. But now a pastor is actually probably someone who's pretty well versed in communicating to people, and that's what is happening in these short form video, uh, pieces of content. And so it's a really unique, um, and really unprecedented time in the church. So, with all that being said, excited to have you today. Today I want to talk about the theology of preaching. Now, you might be thinking this is not a digital topic. And the reason that I think it's a digital topic is because I think that, um, the teacher, the preacher has, um, the ability and perhaps even responsibility to use social media to spread and share the message of Jesus.

Nick Clason (03:46):
Um, and so the reason I wanted to do this deep dive into preaching is because I wanted to make sure that as I read through an examined different sections and pieces of the New Testament, that I was not speaking out of turn, um, and saying something that, uh, was not theologically accurate, you know, in the land of, well, per like, I guess the anticipated argument, and, and in fairness, I haven't really heard this from anybody, but I wanted to make sure that I, um, wasn't saying something that was not a hundred percent biblically or theologically true. Because again, like I said, I haven't said it yet, but I've circled around this idea. My anticipated idea or anticipated argument was that people might say preaching has to take place in the fabric and context of local church and local community. And so I wanted to examine cuz I wasn't sure that that's actually what was said, um, in the New Testament.

Nick Clason (04:50):
And so I wanted, but I wanted to see it for myself. Obviously, I wanted to look at the text and I didn't wanna just go off what I thought or believed or, um, was mostly sure to be true. So let's take a look at the Theology of preaching. So in 1980, a book called Biblical Preaching came out by Hadden Robinson. That was, that was my, um, textbook for, I believe it was Homiletics. Um, which homiletics is the actual, uh, practice or act of delivering a sermon. And so I went to that book, um, and the book is very much a, uh, pro dispositional preaching style verse by verse type of thing. And so he's, he's really building that case the entire way through. And so there's, you know, there's, um, a couple of introductory ideas in the first chapter about what is preaching. Um, but then after that it really dives into the, the ex dispositional side of things and how, how you should focus on that.

Nick Clason (05:58):
But one of the quotes that I found interesting that Hadden Robinson said was he said, Hey, one should think twice and twice again before nominating himself to that company of preachers. And, um, obviously, um, he's borrowing that from James chapter three, verse one, where James writes, dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church for me, or sorry, for we who teach will be judged more strictly this, this responsibility of, um, standing in the gap between God who has a message and his people as a preacher or as a prophet as they were in the Old Testament. That is a high responsibility, and those people are going to be judged more harshly. And so Robinson is saying you should think twice and maybe twice again before you, uh, attempt to step into this. It's not just something about glamorous, not just something about, um, you know, like being known noticed, like this is a really high calling.

Nick Clason (07:00):
And so I think that it's really important for whoever is listening to this, whether if you're like a social media manager and you are a person on camera a lot, or if you're pulling, um, audio clips or video clips from your pastor's sermons, the the fact remains the same that whoever that person is, and then if, if you are an actual pastor who's doing the, the recording, you will be judged more harshly. So, so take that responsibility for what it is worth, right? Like, it's very important. Matthew Simpson, um, he wrote this. He said, his throne is the pulpit, and he talking about the preacher stands in Christ's stead. His message is the word of God around him are immortal souls. The savior unseen is beside him. The Holy Spirit broods over the congregation, angels gaze upon the scene in heaven, and hell await the issue, await the sermon.

Nick Clason (08:00):
And so, uh, same thing, right? Like it's just talking about the, the priority. It's talking about the the level of weight that is on whoever is preaching. All right? And so, uh, I will, uh, throw, uh, a lot of notes, um, a lot of links into the show notes. I'll throw Had and Robinson's, um, link to that book if you wanna check that out. Um, I also found a bunch of articles online that I found pretty helpful. Um, one was from a ministry magazine article. And, um, I just wanna give you a couple of the highlights from that magazine that talk about the importance of preaching. Again, in almost all of these articles are almost all these books, the assumption is that preaching is done in a physical context behind a physical pulpit to a physical congregation. And by no means am I trying to build or make a case that says that that should go away, okay?

Nick Clason (08:51):
But what I am trying to build and make a case and open a door for is can preaching or can sharing the message of Jesus, can that also be done using different methods and mediums, such as an online medium, uh, like short form, video content, YouTube, TikTok, whatever the case might be. All right? So here's some of the high, uh, high level takeaways from this Ministry magazine article about preaching. All right? So the first thing at a very basic foundational level is this, is that God has chosen to speak. We see in Genesis chapter one, 10 different times it was recorded, it says, God said, we also see five different times in that same chapter of Genesis chapter one, that God called and so to God, words are very important. In fact, his entire creation was speaking. And then the thing, existing plants, animals, light, darkness, day, night, moon, stars, sun, all of that was given to us by the voice and word of God to God, words and breath and speaking, it matters, and it plays an, a pretty important role in the narrative of human history.

Nick Clason (10:08):
Furthermore, uh, God breathed into Adam and gave him his life. And Psalm 33, 6 says, by the word of the Lord, the heavens were made, the host of them and the breath of his mouth. And so, God, there is a very important and, and critical role in the fact that God has even chosen to speak. So God's chosen to speak. God has also called for surrogate voices to, to speak on his behalf. Preaching by the prophets was a, a way of warning the people to get their act together or to, to watch out for some sort of impending judgment that was going to happen because they had not been obeyed. See, God is love, and he's giving all, um, opportunity for mankind to experience and come to salvation. One Timothy chapter two, verse four says, who wants God? Who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth?

Nick Clason (11:08):
Romans 10 13 through 16 says this. It says, so everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But how can they call on, on him to save him unless they believe in him? How can they believe in him if they've never heard about him? How can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? So that's why the scripture says, how beautiful are the feet of the messengers who bring the good news? But not everyone who welcomes the good news for Isaiah, the prophet said, Lord, who has believed our message? See, there's power in the words. There's power in being saved through the words. And God has a desire for humans to come to that understanding. The, the, the reality is this, is that the, the power comes from you and my and your preacher or whoever.

Nick Clason (12:00):
The power comes from that person's individual life. It's about the words that are said, but there's power and weight behind it. If there's authority, integrity, um, if, if, if the message is coming from the overflow of somebody's heart, of somebody's life, this, this message is not just about saying the message, right? There's obviously that, that verse where Paul says, uh, even if despite how the gospel is being preached, I rejoice because even if it's in vain, or even if it's not good or whatever, like it is still being preached. And that's true. But the, the more connected you and I and your pastor are connected to the vine, John chapter 15, if, uh, we are connected to the vine, you're reminded that Jesus says, um, apart from me, you can do nothing. Ian Bounds has a quote that says, the sermon is made in the closet.

Nick Clason (12:59):
The man, God's man is made in the closet. And so then at that point, you and I get to take this idea from Romans chapter 10 or for Timothy chapter two, um, and share it with other people. God desires for all men to come to an understanding. We, we get to be the feet that carry the message to the people who have not heard. How sweet are the feet of those who carry that message, however, is the person's personal life is our personal life, is our heart, is we have the gut check in place because it's really easy on social media, it's really easy on TikTok to get vanity metrics and vanity views and feel like we're actually doing something when in reality we maybe aren't doing anything and we're chasing after selfish gain or selfish motive. So like Ian Bound says, the real sermon, the real is made in his private life in a closet.

Nick Clason (13:59):
All right, so I got some more articles. Um, what is is preaching, um, I, I, I searched what is preaching, and a quote from, uh, thabiti on Yawe says this. He says, preaching is God speaking in the power of his spirit, about his son from his word through a man. Thessalonians chapter one verse form five says four, we know brothers loved by God that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. First Thessalonians two 13. And we also thank God continually because when you receive the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it as it actually is the word of God. God himself spoke through Paul's preaching, which is at, which is at work in you who believe power is in the word. Um, and also in the messenger, right?

Nick Clason (14:59):
First Peter, chapter four, 10 through 11, each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others faithfully, faithfully, admonishing God's grace in its various forms. And if anyone speaks, you should do so as one speaking the very words of God. And then Matthew chapter 10, verse 19 through 20, when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. Cuz at that time, you'll be given what to say for it will not be you, uh, speaking, but it will be the spirit of your, uh, father speaking through you had Robinson Hadden. Robinson says this, he says, preach means to cry out Harold or exhort, second Timothy, chapter four, verse two. So preaching should so stir a man that he pours out the message with passion and fervor. See, scripture already has authority. And so Robinson's argument, right, like I was saying, is one for expository preaching, which obviously he's speaking and writing this with a mindset of, uh, really I feel like he's arguing expository versus, uh, like topical or whatever.

Nick Clason (16:10):
And he's also arguing it with the assumption that this is taking place within the context of a local church with a pastor who's standing behind a pulpit who has the word of God open in front of him, and he's preaching out of it. And he's saying that the authority comes from the word of God. And so if we're going to take that and transfer this to a digital format, the same is true. You see, it's really easy, especially on TikTok. It's all about quick and the hook and about capturing attention. And I think those things are true. And by the way, those things are still true for live preaching in the room sermons, um, capturing people's attention, making sure it's relevant, taking what is true in God's word, and also making it true in their life or relevant in their life. However, the authority, the intersection there between, uh, the word of God and the relevancy, um, of the, of, uh, the message, the intersection of that needs to be God's word.

Nick Clason (17:01):
That is where the authority falls and comes from. All right, so back to Robinson, right? An expository definition. Um, he says this, he says, so, so the passage, uh, governs the sermon. The expository communicates a concept. The concept then comes from the text. The concept is applied to the expository. And then, um, the concept is then applied to the hearer. Okay? And so oftentimes a complaint about expository preaching is that it's not very relatable, it's boring, it's dry. Okay? Check out this quote from Robinson. I found it incredibly eye-opening, especially as I'm doing this research in light of, can this be a digital means a digital format? He said, seldom do normal people lose sleep over the, the jutes, the Canaanites or the, the parasites. Uh, or even about what Abraham, Moses or Paul had said or done. He said, what they do lie awake, wondering is about grocery prices, crop failures, corals with a girlfriend, the diagnosis of malignancy, of frustrating sex life, the rat race where the rat only seems to ever win.

Nick Clason (18:10):
So if a sermon does not make much difference in that world, they wonder if it makes any difference at all. And I would say, and I would make the argument that the same is true if you're going to try and preach and share the message of hope of Jesus online, cuz people are, are not scrolling through TikTok worried about the JB besides Canaanite pairs, that's Abraham, Moses, or Paul. But what they will care about is when you can take those things and make them relevant and apply them back over to the worries, the frustrations, the day-to-day life, things that are causing them concern.

Nick Clason (18:47):
So all of that is about preaching. All of that is about good fact that God chose to speak, he uses surrogate voices and preaching must inspire, um, and be relevant for people, uh, to take the message and apply it back over to their lives. The question then is, what is the role of preaching in the church? And is preaching an exclusive thing that can only happen in the context of a local church body, right? Then that would be, that would be, um, pretty important to, to figure out, um, especially in light of, of this argument. And, you know, in a lot of cases, I, I feel as though my audience, and if this isn't you, that's obviously fine. You're obviously welcome here. You can, can learn and from what we're talking about, but I feel in a lot of ways my audience is aimed at a person who is already in a local church, um, who's working for a local church and who's already seeing a lot of these things sort of like happening and take place.

Nick Clason (19:48):
The question I have then is, what is the purpose of the local church? You know, we went into that a little bit in the last episode, so I'll drop the link to that in the show notes. Uh, I also then looked up, um, an article I found on, um, desiring god.org, which is John Piper's website, and he has seven qualifications for the church. So he has seven qualifications and a averse or two that sort of like, uh, support it. And so I also look those verses up and I'm gonna read those verses when I'm done, um, so that you understand where he's getting his, his basis for. So he's, he's making a statement, um, and tying it to a, a scripture. And I'm gonna read the actual scripture so that you hear that scripture, um, as well, not just like the reference to, okay, so the first thing that he says, he says that people must give evidence in the remember, uh, the basis for local church.

Nick Clason (20:39):
Um, so number one basis for a local church, or what is a local church, that people must give evidence that they are believers, that they, they trust Jesus as their savior and Lord, the New Testament makes it very clear that we are adopted into the family of God through our faith. And that comes from John chapter one, verse 12 and 13, but to all who believe him and accept him, he gave the right to become children of God. They're reborn not with physical birth resulting from human passion or pl or a plan, but a birth that comes from God. The second basis, the second qualification of a local church is that people must be baptized. Jesus commanded a Matthew chapter 28, verse 19, that the way to make disciples was to baptize them and to teach them. And this was the uniform practice in the early church.

Nick Clason (21:21):
Matthew 28 19 says, therefore, go make disciples of all nations, baptiz them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The third basis for the local church is that there must be a regular assembly. A group of people who only came together, say once a year, could not rightly be called a local church because they are a central activities of the church, which lose their meaning when not done corporately. So therefore, Hebrews 10 25 commands us not to neglect meeting together to hear. Hebrews 10 25 says this, let us not neglect our meeting together as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near. Uh, just a quick pause here. I would say in a lot of ways, I think the gathering together, um, a lot of it is not, um, at this point in 2023, is not necessarily for information transfer.

Nick Clason (22:11):
I think, um, that that has been solved through means like podcasting and YouTube videos and, um, people can even listen to worship music on Spotify. Now, I think one of the major factors of the local church is for this is for encouragement. I think that life is hard. I think that people are lonely. And I think that coming together in a gathering, in a regular gathering is for encouragement. Um, that complicates things a little bit when most churches gather together to sit down in rows and look ahead and watch a person talk for a half an hour. And I think that's where I can make the argument that you can take that same content that you're delivering in a 30 minute sermon and distribute it and disseminate it out online. You can also do it in that format. But I think that there should be something meaningful there for the regular assembly, that there should be some sort of encouragement.

Nick Clason (23:04):
A lot of churches have Sunday school classes or small groups that meet to do that and to fill that, to fulfill that function. And I just think that, um, we have made that a second tier priority, um, in the church. And I think in 2023 and beyond, with information and all-time high and an all-time level of availability, I think that what people really want and need and are looking for is that encouragement. So I'll continue going on. Uh, the fourth marker of a local church is, it says, among these meetings, there must be, um, gathering for worship. This follows inevitably from the ultimate value placed on Jesus Christ who calls us together from our rela uh, relation to God. Through him, the church is destined to live, uh, to the praise of God's glory. Ephesians chapter one, verse six, 12 and 14, and therefore, it will contradict our nature not to assemble for worship.

Nick Clason (24:00):
Um, acts chapter two, uh, 47, and then Romans 15, six through seven. So Ephesians 1, 6, 12, and 14 says, so we praise God for the glorious grace that he has poured out on us who belonged to his dear son. Verse 12, God's purpose was that we, Jews who are the first to trust Christ would bring praise and glory to God. And verse 14, the spirit of God's guarantee that he will give us inheritance. He promised that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so that we would praise and glorify him. So because of what he did right, we would, we would as a result, praise and glorify him. And, and because of that, then Piper is making the argument that that's the church should be, um, built on worship and adoration and, and praise of God. Acts chapter two verse, uh, acts 2 20 47.

Nick Clason (24:50):
Acts 2 47 says, all while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people, and each day the Lord added to their fellowship, those who are being saved, Romans 15, six and seven, then all of you can join together with one voice giving praise and glory to God the father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept each other just as Christ has accepted you, so that God will be given all the glory. The fifth marker of the church. Our meetings must include exhortation from the word of God, right? This is pay attentional to this one. This is really what this entire podcast is centered on. Um, we were born and new through the living and abiding and the word of God, first Peter 1 23. And our life in Christ is preserved not by bread alone, but by every word that precedes out of the mouth of God.

Nick Clason (25:35):
Matthew four, four, the shepherds of the church are the provision that God has made for feeding his sheep. Therefore, we strive not to be the church where the word of God is neglected. First Peter one twenty three, for you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal living word of God. Matthew four, four, Jesus told Satan, no, the scriptures say, please people or not, not please people do not live on bread alone, but by every word that precedes out of the mouth of God. Um, I do think that God has put pastors and shepherds in place to help feed his sheep, but I think that that really the role and mission of the church is, um, as Paul says in Ephesians is, is to equip the saints for works and acts of service.

Nick Clason (26:17):
And so I think in a lot of ways also it says in, I can't remember, I didn't write this one down first or second Peter, that we have everything we need for life and godliness, where a priesthood of all believers. And so people who believe in God should be given the tools to feed themselves to grow in their own faith on their own. And so, yes, I believe that you should gather together to hear a preacher who's poured over a week and remember the, the, the, the power from the word of God comes from the private, private life of the preacher, all that. However, I think the preacher should also be not just teaching the person, uh, like giving them a fish, right? But teaching them how to fish so that they can have that lifetime of learning. And we have, and I think that that a lot, a lot of that learning, um, with that requires some discernment.

Nick Clason (27:00):
Like especially with so much out there, social media, articles, whatever the case might be. Uh, I think the, one of the main things that needs to take place is discernment. Like how do you know if you believe this? If, if this article you're reading lines up matches up with your belief in God and if your, and if it lines up with what the Bible actually has to say. So how do you take what the Bible has to say and and weigh that and measure that against what you're reading, what you're consuming, what you're listening to. So, uh, I'll continue on number six, along with worship and the exoration, we must celebrate in the Lord's supper in order to be the church. We're committed to do this in remembrance of Christ. Luke 2219 and first Corinthians 11, four, neglecting this ordinance might seem, uh, inconsequential at first, but I think a church will bleed to death through the amputation.

Nick Clason (27:49):
Luke 2219 says, then Jesus took some bread, gave thanks to God, broke it in in pieces, and he gave it to his disciples saying, this is my body which is given to you. Do this in remembrance of me, first Corinthians 1124, and give, and gave thanks to God for it. Then he broke it in pieces and said, this is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. This is a gigantic argument for the importance of physical gathering. You, you really cannot partake in the Lord's supper together as a, as a body of Christ without a physical gathering together. You can, um, church has that before, took communion every single week. And so as a part of their online experience, they would encourage people to grab crackers and juice and do it in their homes. And we did that during Covid cuz that was required necessary.

Nick Clason (28:30):
But I think that there's something about doing it in a communal way. Again, I would not, I would argue though, that like when we're sitting in rows and the pastor comes out on stage and leads everyone through communion, I, I don't know that that's really communal, like you're together. But is that actually what he was just talking about there? And that's where, that's where I think the, the, the 21st century American breakdown from church is a has been away from family and more towards a theater or observatory way of church. And that's what I'm saying, encouragement and communal and all these things that, that do happen within the context of a physical church gathering. I do think that it's, it's not actually being played out that way. So you can make that argument like, well, yeah, you need to be together and whatever, but like when I'm sitting in a row, shoulder to shoulder and staring at the back of someone's head, I'm not really getting to know them, not really doing that thing that way.

Nick Clason (29:22):
Um, that's just how we have come to land here out of, out of history. Like historically this, we've been doing it this way, so we're doing it this way again, as opposed to like really, like I said, leaning into less on the information side cuz information's now much more available, but more leaning more into the relational side. Last thing, um, from Piper's article, finally, all of this must take place with the, with the guidance of duly appointed leaders. Paul appointed elders in all churches, acts 1423. He gave instructions about the qualifications of deacons and elders in first Timothy three and tied this one. Full disclosure, I did not write those out, so you can go check those out on your own if you want. And he said that Christ had given pastors teachers to the church to equip the saints for ministry. Ephesians four, one through 12.

Nick Clason (30:13):
I referenced that earlier. Uh, there have always been disagreements about what to call these leaders and how to organize them, but they must be present in a group in order for that group to be a church. Historic Christianity has always affirmed this. So Acts 14, Palm Barnabas also appointed elders in every church with prayer and fasting. They turn the elders over to the care of the Lord in whom they'd put their trust. And then Ephesians for one through 12, therefore I prisoner for serving the Lord beg you to lead a life worthy of your calling. You've been called by God and their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and to build up the church, the body of Christ.

Nick Clason (30:50):
All right, so with all that, with all those different pieces of, of writing and articles and excerpts from books, what's the conclusion? So what I believe very strongly is that the church is God's plan, a for redeeming his people. Matthew chapter 16, Caesarea Philippi upon Peter's proclamation that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus says upon this, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And so, uh, not only is the church going to be successful, but also it is God's plan, a for bringing about redemption and restoration to his people. I also believe that the church should include as Piper laid out elements of worship and teaching. And as I said in the last podcast, living out the one another's, he said it in one of his points about the importance of encouragement of meeting together.

Nick Clason (31:51):
I think that there's a, like I said earlier, and I did a little sidebar, uh, earlier, I think there's a lot more there and I think there's a lot more opportunity for the church to be more encouraging in lifting up one another. And so I think it's, I think it's ultimately God's desire that everyone comes to a knowledge of salvation of him. And I also believe, and I, and I see it pretty clearly, that it's Jesus' command for us to go and make disciples teaching them. And and I think that's probably done through the context of community. Now, like I said, I think we can get it twisted and say when we're sitting in rows, the way that the church has been set up for, for a century or longer now, that that's community because we're in the room together. And I don't actually think that that's the most effective form of community.

Nick Clason (32:43):
And I think most pastors would say that's not the most effective form of community. However, no one has really tried to break that. Um, and if they do, they're often considered sort of like hippies and people just trying to be like super offshoot of Christianity, right? But people who live, um, best in the context of community, people who have committed to a local assembly, a local body, a local acc, the church, um, those people are the ones who then can live out this command from Jesus to both be discipled and to be discipling others, teaching them about the commands of Jesus. And that's not just the pastor's job, it's the pastor's job to help equip set up framework, um, do this under the, the guidance and assembly and all these things. Okay? But in addition to the content from God's word, there's an encouragement of one another that needs to be lived out and needs to be expressed.

Nick Clason (33:40):
And however, I think in addition to all of that, we see Paul and we see Jesus and we see his disciples, like when Jesus sends out the 72, that they have a high level of urgency and priority to go and share the gospel to the people that have not yet heard the message of Jesus. And I do believe that digital vertical, short form video, long form video, audio podcasting, TikTok, is today's opportunity to help go out into the fray infringes to share the message of help found in the gospel. Like, like Paul, right? Almost every one of his letters was written to a church that he was not in physical proximity to. He had a relationship with them, he had met them before, maybe he hadn't, he just heard about 'em in a couple cases. But he sends and uses the, the communication means and effort of his day and age, and he uses it to get in contact with different churches.

Nick Clason (34:44):
And I believe that TikTok is today's opportunity to share the message of hope that's found in the gospel if we're borrowing from the marketing world and looking at like a funnel, right? Like the top of the funnel is the widest, and that's the awareness phase. And then people might move into a consideration phase and then a conversion phase, and then to the fact down in the lowest part of the funnel, um, where they are expressing loyalty. And then finally, they are expressing a advocacy. And I think that the church can, um, follow a similar way. And I think that that TikTok, I think that social media often is a top of the funnel type of thing. I don't know that you are gonna pray with anybody to receive Christ over TikTok. You might, and that'd be an amazing story. But I think in a lot of ways a person is, is hovering around the top of the funnel, gaining an awareness of Jesus, um, and, and maybe even your church, and then moving down that funnel more and more and more until finally I take a step into real live, authentic personal community.

Nick Clason (35:44):
And the church world is very similar. Jesus set up the very same framework, right? Jesus said, um, Hey, explore who I am, where he, where he gives the invitation to Andrew and John, and he says, come and see. And then out of that, he, he allows them to follow him or, or connect with him and with some other disciples. And then he really ch he leans in, he challenges them, goes from following me to, I will make you, I will change you, um, make you into fishes of men. And that's what we see a lot of the growth of them internally. And then finally, the most growth is when he turns and pivots and he says, now it's your job to go and multiply. And that's why we see much joy out of Jesus when the 72 come back, because the 72 is the, the second and third and fourth generation of disciples.

Nick Clason (36:31):
It's not just his disciples, the ones that we know, the ones that are listed, Peter, James, John, Andrew. But it's, it's their disciples, the ones that they've shared the message with. Those 72 go out and they also bear much fruit. That's the framework that Jesus has built up for multiplication. And so, um, we can, as the church, we can lean into that come and see, and that follow me, those entry level places. And in a lot of times those have been set up in physical gatherings in the worship environment. And that is a place where people can come and explore. But I think, um, in today's day and age, they're also doing a lot of that exploration in the palm of their hands, on their phones, on their devices and on their screens. And they're looking at their, at their phones. They're asking questions about, who is this man?

Nick Clason (37:13):
Jesus, what is this you say about faith? And as they're scrolling through TikTok to yes, be entertained and to yes, find another silly video or whatever they're looking for, they might also find something meaningful, something spiritual and something where you can say, Hey, come and see. Hey, listen guys, I hope you found this episode helpful. Uh, it was a deep dive. Um, it was heavy and there was a lot of, uh, scripture and quotes and stuff like that. And so, um, I will post, um, all the links to everything I've done in the show notes. Of course, there's free transcripts and you know what I'll do, I'll include my notes for this, um, in the, the notes as well. So you can get all that over at hybridministry.xyz. Go grab the ebook, go watch the YouTube video and how to post. And um, guys, listen, there is a lost and dying world out there, and that's why this is so important, not for you to get a thousand million hundred views on a TikTok video, but so that people who don't have a relationship with Jesus come to an understanding of a relationship with Jesus.

Nick Clason (38:15):
And maybe just, maybe that's through you giving them an opportunity to explore and open the door. So keep doing what you're doing, blessings on you and your ministry, and we'll talk again.

SHOWNOTES
YM360
http://www.ym360.com
MINISTRY TO PARENTS
https://ministrytoparents.com/
MY YOUTH MIN
https://myyouthmin.com/
EPISODE 016 ON HOW THE IPHONE CHANGED THINGS WITH DERRY PRENKERT
https://merry-swamp-3547.fireside.fm/016

TIMECODES
00:00-02:49 Intro
02:49-05:55 Kerry's Intro and Experience
05:55-09:12 What it's like no longer being in the trenches of ministry
09:12-13:44 What was life in ministry like before the cell phone and after?
13:44-16:22 Is technology what created FOMO?
16:22-21:00 What is contact work?
21:00-32:58 Can we use technology to our advantage in ministry efforts?
32:58-34:27 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Hey, what is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, episode 19. We've been doing 19 of these. I can't freaking believe it in your catcher. It might be 20, because we posted as Double Zero pilot. I kind of hate when people do that, and then I, I went and did it. So, anyway, uh, as always, I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be with you. And today you're in for a treat because number one, I'm not just gonna ramble in your ear holes the entire time, like I have been for the last several episodes, but two, I'm bringing on one of my really good friends. His name is Kerry Ray. He is the director of editing and publications right now at YM 360, which is, YM Youth Min, right? Youth Ministry 360. And he has 30 years of church ministry experience, particularly in the student ministry and youth ministry space.

Nick Clason (00:58):
So, let me caveat all of that to say this is a ministry podcast, not specific in particular to youth ministry. However, that being said, um, you know that I am a 12 year youth ministry veteran, and so a lot of my connections and conversations come in the youth ministry space. And so, um, I just will caveat all this to say that today is going to be a very youth ministry centric conversation. Um, but all of it is going to be couched sort of in, uh, digital, right? And, and so what Kerry is gonna be talking about, um, and what I did is I, we had an interview and it went really well, and it went really long. And so I decided, I think I'm actually gonna bite, uh, split this up into two more bite size pieces. And so, episode one is gonna come out this week, episode two, or part two of this, I should say, is gonna drop on Thanksgiving Day, so you can enjoy it on the way to your, um, grandmother's house over the river and through the woods.

Nick Clason (01:59):
So in this first part in particular, he's gonna talk a little bit about his experience, um, what he's seen and how he's seen digital play a role in that. And then he talks about, um, a thing that I first learned from him, but he says he's still primarily from young Life called contact work, right? And if you've been around this podcast at all, you've known, we talked about showing up where they are, um, which is what Jesus did, honestly, right? He, he showed up where we were, he put on skin, he became human. And so that's what he talks about, and he kind of gives the basis for it and why it's important. Um, and so that's gonna be today. Um, so hopefully you enjoy it. And so, without any further ado, we're gonna get started. And you'll notice just how well I am as a host when we plan this thing, when you hear how we get started. So here we go. 3, 2, 1. Check it out. Hey,

Kerry Ray (02:50):
Is whoa gonna go first on,

Nick Clason (02:53):
Man? Come on. Doesn't even listen to instructions.

Kerry Ray (02:57):
I did. I thought you said, I'll do a thing later. And then you go ahead and introduce

Nick Clason (03:02):
Yourself. I'm keeping all this in. This is Kerry, everybody. Kerry, introduce yourself to the tens and tens of listeners that I have.

Kerry Ray (03:10):
Hey, tens of listeners. My name is Kerry Ray. I am the director of publishing for Y M 360 in Birmingham, Alabama. Uh, YM 360 Youth Ministry 360. Uh, before that, uh, this is my first year actually as a director of publishing, whatever that means. Uh, I did, uh, before that, I did, uh, right about three decades in the student ministry seat, um, in multiple denominations of churches, in churches, multiple states, uh, different sizes, churches, different size, not sizes, different size churches, um, multisites single sites, uh, single sites that wanted to be multisite, uh, . I've been, I've been around the block and, and seen a lot of things, man. Um, but yeah, I've been in the youth ministry for right at 30 years. And, um, this was my first, actually at the time of this recording, this was my, this last Easter was my first Easter, uh, in, in here in 2022, was my first Easter in 30 years, not to be on staff at a church.

Kerry Ray (04:15):
So it was quite the different thing to sit in there as a regular person who could see all the things going wrong, but uh, was not responsible for, for fixing any of them. Um, and so it was great. It was, it was really great. Um, it's weird now on Saturday nights after, you know, you get in a routine for 30 years. Uh, Saturday nights are kind of a weird thing because you go to church on Sunday mornings, but you're not going to work, you know, to do all the things. Um, so, and you go with a family on, on a Sunday morning, it's whole thing. Just a different world, man. So I've, uh, like I said, I've been, I got to wife 360 in October of 2022, um, and started a, a new thing. We, we work in, uh, Y 360, if you don't know, we're, we're part, um, publishing.

Kerry Ray (05:06):
And, uh, we create content for student ministries, youth ministries, all over the world to use. Um, and we also do camps. We have a, a generate by Y 360, uh, which does camp all across different locations. We had this last summer, summer of 2022. We, I believe we were in 20, 23 or 24 locations, um, running camps, 20. We had three different teams spread out all over. Uh, so it was great. My, my section of that, we create all of the, uh, written material, all the devotional material, all of the, um, all the written material for camps. Um, so yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's very different. And then I get to, uh, coach student ministries, youth pastors, all across the place. Um, I've been doing that for around seven years, so, yeah. Nice. Yeah. Lot of fun. Lot of fun.

Nick Clason (05:59):
So let me ask you this, just, this isn't one of the questions I sent you. I'm already going off script, but, uh, do you enjoy Saturday nights and Sunday mornings not being responsible for stuff, or is there like an element of you that misses it at all?

Kerry Ray (06:15):
Oh, absolutely. I think anytime you do something for a significant amount of your life, um, there's a part of you that missed that, um, that misses, um, you know, just being around and, and, and knowing all the faces and knowing who's where. And, um, yeah, there's just part of it that you kind of miss a little bit of it. There's some part, and maybe this will make sense for some of you listening who've done anything for a significant amount of time, there's parts that you miss that you don't know why you miss, or you don't even know what you miss. You just say something's weird and off and just seems a little different. Um, yeah. But yeah, there, there's pieces and parts. There's definitely pieces and parts that I don't miss.

Kerry Ray (06:56):
You know, I don't miss, you know, being gone all day on a Sunday. Um, I don't miss, um, I the whole getting to be a part like you go as a family and do stuff with as a family, uh, that's really brand new. Yeah. Um, and, and it's, it's been great. My, my kids, I, my wife and I have two kids. We have an eight year old and a 14 just turned 14 a couple days ago. And so this is such a significant time in both of their lives mm-hmm. that it is great to be, you know, just a dad and not a staff member. Um, and to get, to get to sit in, I'll tell you, you know, a little bit of a confession. It's also difficult. Um, we're at a smaller church now, and, um, having been in large church ministry for so long, um, now that my daughter is participating in ministry, and, you know, that ministry is, you know, trying to figure itself out and mm-hmm. and, and go through all the, you know, all the growing pains of, of a growing ministry. And I'm sitting on the sidelines and thinking, gosh, , that's awkward. I can help that, but I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna white knight, you know, come in when my, on my high horse and, and quote unquote fix it for them. Especially with,

Nick Clason (08:16):
You're fixing it as the YM 360 guy. Are you fixing it as Madison dad, as dad? Are you fixing it as a church volunteer? Like, what, yeah. What's

Kerry Ray (08:26):
Your role, right? Or are you fixing as the guy that quote unquote knows it all right. So, you know, you don't, you don't wanna be that guy. Um, so yeah, it's, it's just been, it's been weird. That's, that's kind of the honest thing is to have done a thing, and I think this is true at anything, not just ministry, but having, you know, if you were, if you were a cabinet maker and you walked in and people were, you know, fumbling around with a hammer trying to build a cabinet, and you're just biting your, you know, biting your closed fist, going, oh, no, that's not how you, you do it . Um, so it, it's that, I mean, and not saying that they're not doing a great job. Um, they are, they're doing well in figuring it out. They're just, you know, figuring it out. Um, and they're going through some, some growing pain in that process. So yeah, that's, that's what we're doing as a family right

Nick Clason (09:13):
Now. So I'm, I'm curious, Kerry, like two or three episodes ago, I'll link it, you know, in the show notes, but I had, uh, my friend d Pinker on, and we talked about, um, how he, he has a similar longevity track record that you do, and he talked about how the invention of the iPhone was a pretty monumental, like, milestone marker for him in youth ministry. Like he kinda remembers ministry before the invention, um, and widespread use of the iPhone, and then post the invention and widespread use of the iPhone. Do you have, would you say you have a similar, um, experience with that? Like, did you, did you notice that being a pretty big milestone thing in student ministry and in your career noticing how students interacted? Did that change things? Did you, um, have to program or think about things differently because of technology and it's, you know, interwoven into the culture?

Kerry Ray (10:11):
Um, honestly, I, I think the iPhone changed not programming so much as it changed, um, advertising. And I know that's a big no-no word. You know, in the church world, you're not supposed to see the things you're doing as a quote unquote product or something you are promoting. Um, but you are, you're, you're promoting a thing, um, come be a part of this, whether it's a camp, a Wednesday night, a Sunday morning, you are trying to tell people this is a thing we have, um, otherwise you're sitting there by yourself. Um, and so I think it changed, I think it changed dramatically how we engaged with, with students. Hmm. , um, I don't think so much at all. It, it really changed programming. Um, but it definitely changed the way we engaged. It definitely changed, um, the level of intentionality that you had to put behind, uh, promotion and how you promoted and how you celebrated.

Kerry Ray (11:15):
Uh, it also gave you kind of an open door, you know, whether you want it to be or not. A lot of youth ministry is word of mouth. Yeah. Um, I always used to kinda call it the skating rink effect when I was a kid. You know, the skating rink was, was a thing. , sadly, that'll show you my age. The skating rink was a thing, and we didn't, in middle school specifically, you didn't know why it was a thing. Yeah. You just knew that's where everybody was. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, but it was word of mouth, you know? It was, it wasn't the, the skating rink when I grew up, the skating, it was called fun time, skate land. Uh, it wasn't that fun time. Skateland had this giant marketing, you know, this this monumental system or this, this thing that they were doing. They were like, come to fun time.

Kerry Ray (12:01):
It was just, it was word of mouth. And the middle school, you know, that that's where everybody was going on on a Friday night. They were going to fun time. And you talked about it in the hallways, and people do, and I think in cinema ministry, whether we want it to be or not, it, it's always been a word of mouth. You know, I'm, you know, why do, why do so many kids show up to this one event, this all nighter that you do? Well, because the word got out that these people are going and the other people wanna go. And then it snowballs into this thing. Um, and I think the word of mouth became digital. Word of mouth. Um, and you could, you could digitally have a megaphone to, to broadcast that thing versus just relying on word of mouth. Yeah. Um, and so that changed the game.

Kerry Ray (12:47):
So it changed. Um, the only thing I would say in programming, uh, uh, that it would change was that you had to be, or you started to be a little more intentional about recording the things that you were doing mm-hmm. and putting them out there for people to see later. Yeah. Uh, and to advertise with. Um, that's probably the only way it really changed. And I would say it changed programming. It would just, Hey, we want to capture certain things. And so we would talk about, as a team, uh, what are the things we wanna maybe capture tonight and, and broadcast so that people can see it and try to leverage the fomo, you know, the, the, that FOMO piece mm-hmm. is, is a real deal, the invention of the iPhone, Instagram, now TikTok, um, even, even be, you know, be real. It is that FOMO piece of what's happening in the moment. Who's doing what, Ooh, I wanna be a part of that. Mm-hmm. , that's what changed. I think that's what changed.

Nick Clason (13:45):
So would you say before that, that fomo for someone my age, who's only done ministry in an iPhone generation, is fomo a recent phenomenon since the invention of technology and things like that? Or was that always a part of it? Now you just can see it with your own eyes that you Oh, you're right now missing out.

Kerry Ray (14:07):
Yeah. No, FOMO has always existed. Um, it wasn't called that, but you know, there was always that, you know, nobody wants to be left out. Everybody wants to be, um, they did say it for hundreds, hundreds of years. They've been saying for years, you know, that, um, when you walk into a building, but think about yourself anytime, iPhone or not, you walk into a restaurant in a busy time of the day for a restaurant mm-hmm. , and you're the, there's maybe one other person in the restaurant. There's something inside of you that goes, it could be the greatest restaurant ever. It could be the best food, best atmosphere, but there's something inside you that intrinsically goes, huh, yeah, something's wrong. What's wrong with this, this ? And, and I think that's, I think that's who we are as, as human beings. When you walk into a store, there's nobody shopping there. When you, when you go to a gym and you work and there's, you're what, what's midnight? That's if you're doing it in a time where typically there would be people there, whether we walk into a church now, um, and there's, you know, there's nobody really attending. You go, huh? When you walk outta that, you don't say, you know, man, that was great. You go, man, that was great. I wonder why nobody goes.

Nick Clason (15:27):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, right? Cause none of that's based on the actual content maybe. Nope. Of like, oh, that was a great message I really resonated with, or whatever. Like what you're noticing is like the social equity landscape of like, what's going on around you, looking around, no one's there. And

Kerry Ray (15:44):
It is a thing, and it is a thing. I think that thing has always existed. And I think whether it's the iPhone or social media, um, has just exacerbated that and made it, yeah. A more prominent thing turned the volume up, if you will, uh, has made it a more prominent thing, more obvious thing. Um, the, but I think it's always been there. Uh, I think it's, you know, when you were eight years old and didn't get invited to a birthday party and you knew other people did mm-hmm. , that's, you had fomo, you were missing out. Um, I think that's just a, a human thing.

Nick Clason (16:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So you and I connected, you were at a church in Cincinnati. I was at a church in Cincinnati, and we were on the doorstep of working together. Um, and so in that process, I guess, I mean, I guess it was even formal. We had formal interviews and stuff. Um, you explained to me, uh, a thing that, I don't know if you came up with this or coined it or whatever, but you called it contact work. Um, so explain a little bit to our listeners, like what that is, where it comes from, maybe the theological or biblical basis for it. Um, and, uh, like then I wanna kind of explore, is that type of work, is that type of ministry, is that possible more and more as we enter into this digital space? But first of all, give us just a little bit of like a background of like, what is it, um, what are you talking about with contact work? I think when I heard it, I never heard it called that, but it was very intrinsic to me. Like, I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense, right? As a youth pastor, like, this is what I'm trying to do. I just never kind of put this label to it. So explain that a little bit.

Kerry Ray (17:32):
Yeah. Well, I definitely did not, uh, coin the phrase contact work. Um, that is, um, I served for a while, um, in young life, and that is a, that is a big, big piece of young life. If anybody's listening who has ever been a part or knows anything about young life, contact work is one of their core tenants. Um, they put a lot of, a lot of energy and effort and strategy

Nick Clason (18:00):
Into Andre good at contact work. That's, that's probably what they're best, I would say.

Kerry Ray (18:04):
Oh, they're, yeah, they're excellent at it. And it's because they value it. It's such a high value, um, for them. Like I said, it's one of their core tenants. Um, it's such a high value that they do it well. Um, and so borrowing that phrase from those guys, um, I just learned it and saw it done really well and saw it valued. Um, and so I, I kind of adopted it into early on into, um, what I was doing, and it was, it was going where they are versus expecting them to come to you. Hmm. Um, contact work at, at its core is, uh, young life would call it earning the right to be heard. Um, but it is, or maybe you hear them say, um, doing things on their turf mm-hmm. , um, so to speak. But basically it is, it is going to where the students are mm-hmm. versus sitting and expecting them to come to you, and then you're putting in the time with them in their places where they feel comfortable and confident, and where they maybe kinda run the show versus your place behind these walls, behind this door where you're in charge and are expecting them to, to do certain, certain things. Um, contact, contact work. Oops, sorry. Contact work is something that is something that we have done for years. It's an expectation.

Kerry Ray (19:37):
Sorry, my headphones went out for a second.

Nick Clason (19:40):
Oh, no, you're good. Contact work is sounds great to me. So,

Kerry Ray (19:42):
Okay. Contact work is, is something that, um, I have, you know, expected is the best word to use of any staff we have I've ever had on, on a, on a church staff. Um, it is, it's that big of a deal. Um, for example, when I had interns and, you know, we were only allowed, you know, what, 15 hours with an intern mm-hmm. mm-hmm. 10 of those hours with contact work, and I would ask them to, you know, fill out a form that tells me where they were going, what they were doing, who they, who they hung out with and talked to. Mm-hmm. , it was that big of a deal. I wanted them to value it. Um, that's when I first started in ministry. Early on, we didn't call it that. Um, but that was my role. Um, I had an older youth pastor who kinda looked at me and sat me down and said, Hey man, I, I'm too old to go run with the Bulls. Um, so , I'm gonna ask you to do that, and I'm gonna expect you to be in the school. I'm gonna expect you to be the one at the games. I'll still be the guy preaching, but, and you know, teaching, teaching you how to do those things, but, you know, you're the guy that's gonna run around with 'em. You can call it Tide Piper, whatever you wanna call it, but it is going and building relationships with students, with teenagers on their turf where they are at instead of expecting them to come to you.

Nick Clason (21:02):
Yeah. I think, and I think, like for me, man, the basis really of me starting this whole podcast is realizing that, uh, digital can play a role in that. You know, I think for churches, a lot of churches, uh, get stuck into their, like, programming schedule. It's Wednesday night, Sunday morning, whatever, and not realizing that there's another 167 unclaimed hours that students are living life doing their thing. Um, you know, so that can obviously be done in person, but how would you say, have you seen that be either possible, or would you say like, yeah, that's not even really a possibility, uh, to show up on their turf in like a digital or more of like a hybrid type of way?

Kerry Ray (21:53):
Lemme back up for a second first, and I can say that one, it's, it's part of what we're called to do. Mm-hmm. , if you're in ministry, um, we're supposed to be following and living as Jesus did. And what you never saw in the New Testament was Jesus just sit still somewhere and say, you know, everybody come to me. Mm-hmm. , I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna sit here , you know, in Jerusalem. I'm just gonna sit here and expect you to come to me. He traveled, he, he went around from town to town, place to place sharing and talking. And part of that was, you know, just getting around the people. Mm-hmm. , um, the people that, you know, he came to this place to die for was just to be amongst and, and interact with those people. Um, and that's part of our calling we're, we can't just sit in a church.

Kerry Ray (22:43):
You could have the greatest program in the world, but you sitting in a church and just expecting people to come to you is one arrogant too. Mm-hmm. , it's foolish. Three, it's ineffective. Um, it just doesn't, it's not the thing you can't, that's not who you're called to be. You're called to, to be out and about. And with people, people, these students are, you're calling, they're, they're coming to know Christ is your calling. And, and it can't be, I'm just sitting here and the kids that get here, that's great. The kids who don't hate it for them, um, that that's not okay. Yeah. So let's start there. Uh, number two, um, it, it matters to your community. Um, you hopefully want your church, your ministry, your student ministry. You want that to, to have such an impact on the lives of the people in your community, no matter their age, that if it disappeared, people would care. Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (23:40):
. Yeah.

Kerry Ray (23:41):
And to do that, you can't sit in your ivory tower literally and, and expect that to happen. You've got to go out and make some sort of impact, some sort of influence. Uh, and I think in the world we live in the, with the, um, deification, if you will, you know, all of the, you know, I am, you know, de deconstructing my, my religious experience. Um, people are weary. People are weary, people are leery I'll rhyme there. Uh, they're both, they are, they're, um, suspicious mm-hmm. of church. Like, what do you, you know, what do you want from me? Oh, you just want my money. Um, and we've got, if you're talking about students and general teenagers, uh, we've got, this is the first group generation that was raised by students who bowed out years ago. You know, statistically they're, they're called the nuns. N o n E S, not n u n S.

Kerry Ray (24:42):
But the parents are the people who were in student ministry, you know, maybe. And then they bowed out and their parents didn't, you know, didn't raise them in church. And so now they're having kids of their own. And, and so it's, it's blank slates. So you've got parents who don't know, who don't know church. You've got students who don't know church. Um, they're blank canvases. And so, uh, we are, should be out and about if nothing else trying to, trying to show and be the hands of Jesus Christ, the hands of beauty of Christ in these communities in which we are called the love administer to, um, digitally, um, I, I, let's be honest, we watched these last couple years with Covid shutting everything down. Mm-hmm. , we watched the churches who, and the student ministries who had embraced a, a different philosophy versus the come to me.

Kerry Ray (25:40):
Um, they transitioned better. I won't say, well, I will say they had, they made it through the Covid piece a little better mm-hmm. than the churches and the student ministries who lived in the come to us mentality. Um, but let's be honest, I think everybody struggled with it. Uh, because even young life, uh, who is excellent at contact work, I watched Young Life struggled to find themselves because they couldn't do that anymore. Yeah. They couldn't do the face to face interaction, and they had to try to do it in a digital format, and it didn't work as well. Sounds, um, it, it failed. Um, yeah. And it struggled. I mean, some of it, I mean, he, it kinda worked. Not really. I, I would say it failed. Um, even, you know, the big players in, in student industry, the people who were doing this, the guys out like, you know, um, fields and Josh, Doug Fields and Josh out in California went to a digital format.

Kerry Ray (26:38):
And I don't know, I, I haven't talked to these guys about it, so I'm gonna assume, but I, I would assume if you, you asked those guys, they would tell you that it was not what it was. Mm-hmm. , did they do the big digital thing? Well, sure they did. Yeah. But I don't, I don't think it was what it was before that. Yeah. I don't think they got the same interaction. It's a, it's a lot of work for a little payoff. Um, I know at the time of covid, I was in, uh, church in Cincinnati, Ohio, and our middle school ministry was tied to the weekends mm-hmm. , and it was kinda a show up to church, and you go to this thing, but our high school was built offsite. Um, and we had had multiple years where the students had built communities, it houses across the city, and those communities met offsite, and it was in that community that those students lived in with small group leaders that lived in that community that those students lived in.

Kerry Ray (27:33):
And those students were showing up and inviting people into this thing because it was their thing. Mm-hmm. , um, it was kind of their turf, but with our, uh, blanket over the top of it. Sure. It was, but it was still their thing. Um, and when Covid hit, I got to see firsthand middle school, they come to us, we shut that down for a little bit, then we tried to do it digitally. It just didn't fly. Um, it was a struggle to put, you know, 10 kids in the room, in, in a digital room, uh, high school. I don't think, if I looked at the numbers, and I tracked them every week, I think in total we lost two students. Wow. Two, why? And we actually picked up a few. Why? Because they had already built this community that was not attached to the come, come and see mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (28:31):
It was, it was a community. So when we took that community that already existed and just moved it to a digital format, they, they still do the same people. It was still, it was built on a different thing. Mm-hmm. , it was centered around community and not centered around come and see Yes. Or come and participate. Yeah. Um, so it, it, it, it mattered. It, it changed. And I, like I said, I watched, um, during those, during the covid years, got to see, you know, there were plenty of churches that that died. There were plenty of churches that are still, you know, where a year out now when this is being recorded. And they are still struggling with putting the pieces back together. I don't think, I don't think ministry, I don't think church will ever quite be the same. Um, post covid. Interesting. But, and I think youth ministry is harder, um, because I think students got realize they didn't have to be there.

Kerry Ray (29:25):
Mm-hmm. , uh, the church kids stopped going. The, the non-church kids never went. Uh, and we had a generation now that has been raised at least for a couple of years, you think of a sixth grader, they went through sixth, seventh, and part of grade without ever being in a so ninth grade in that time where it's already hard to be a part of a community because you drive for the first time, you've got some freedom in ninth and 10th grade. Yeah. Depending on your age and your state, uh, you start having freedom, you start working, um, you start doing other things. It's already hard in the, in the youth industry world. For those of you listening to this that are in, in ministry, you know, that time is already difficult anyway. But now you've got a group who went three years without engaging at all mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (30:08):
Uh, and then behind them is another group that went three years without engaging at all. And behind them is another group that, you know, hey, which is babies at the time. So it's going to be a difficult dig out. Um, and I think that that actually makes this contact work piece even more relevant. Mm-hmm. . Now to your question, if, can it be digital? I don't know. I, I have not seen that work super well. Um, now I will tell you this, we all know that, um, for a teenager, uh, when you, and I think of the friends we make, you know, they say, well, my friend, you know, you like, you think my friend that I play, you know, call on duty with, you know, that lives in California. You're like, you never, you, you live in Alabama, you don't know that kid , but you're like, no, I play with them every day.

Kerry Ray (31:00):
I, you know, I spend hours with them on a headset, you know, shooting people and, and you know, talking about stuff over the headset to them that is a real friend. Yeah. Um, that barrier has dropped mm-hmm. to us as adults. You know, I think, you know, for those of you that don't know, those of us, you know, over the age of, let's call it 27 ish, you know, we're digital. We're digital immigrants. Mm-hmm. , we're, we come with baggage of how technology works and how it should be used and utilized, and, uh, where our teenagers and below, or digital natives mm-hmm. , there's never been a time where they did not know technology. There's never been a time where social media was not interactive for them. Um, and so we as adults, as digital immigrants, let's use that instead of adults, us as digital immigrants, we look at, um, online friendships, online relationships, um, and go, that's weird.

Kerry Ray (32:03):
Um, that's not a thing. But to them as digital natives, that has always been the thing that has always been very real. Um, dating apps and, you know, swiping left and right. And I mean, that went from like a silly thing. Like, you know, this is those of us, again as digital immigrants, look at that and go, come on. Um, you know, you're just, you're just, you know, trying to find a hot dude or hot girl and hook up. But for them, they're like, no, I, I'm trying to find a relationship. I get to know people this way. Yeah. Um, it's, it's fascinating. Yeah. Um, so I think there is, there, there's gotta be a way for that to happen mm-hmm. , and we've gotta figure out this, and I'd go back to contact work. There's gotta be a way for contact work to happen in a digital context. But there is some, there is something to set for a loss of the, the face to face because the face to face is so significant.

Nick Clason (32:58):
Wow. Well, wasn't that awesome? I'm so excited for you to hear and learn from part two. Um, anything and everything that Kerry mentioned, uh, YM 360, my youth min, um, all those things. Um, and also Derry's episode. I'm gonna link all of those in the show notes, which you can grab a in your podcast catcher or be over at hybridministry.xyz. And I would really encourage you, because he said a lot of really good things. And if you're like me and you listen on 1.5 or two times speed, uh, you may have not caught it, or you're driving or you mowing the lawn or whatever you're doing, head to hybridministry.xyz and you can grab a full transcript of this episode so that you can have and use to utilize at your discretion. That's a thing that we do and produce for you, um, for a hundred percent free.

Nick Clason (33:49):
So we just wanna let you know that that is available there for you to check out at http://hybridministry.xyz If you found this helpful and I'm sure that you did, please give it a share. Send it to someone that you know, maybe in youth ministry, um, and leave us a rating or a review. That would be really, really helpful for us. We would love to, uh, hear that. So, um, we will chat with you guys next time. Excited to share with you part two of this episode. But until then, we'll talk again later by.

Follow us on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or online at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody. And welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast. On today's episode, I just wanted to have a quick conversation, a brain dump, if you will, about why we do what we do as Christians in church. And you know what I mean by that is there's a lot of moving parts in any organization if you're running a business or if you're an accountant or if you run a plumbing company or whatever, right? There's logistics, there's email, there's it, there's booking, there's scheduling, there's accounting, there's marketing, there's branding and color schemes and merchandising and content creation and social media. I mean, there's a million layers to everything, and the church is not exempt from that. And so what I wanna do, like I said, give just a quick little brain dump here. This is something that's been swirling around in my brain.

Nick Clason (01:09):
I am your host, Nick Clason. If you and I have not had a chance to meet, so excited that you're jumping on this, uh, podcast with me today. Um, I, we, we, we, uh, have this podcast, the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, because we are attempting to live life out in a hybrid sort of way. We don't live in a physical only world anymore, but we don't live in a digital only world either. How do we marry those two things together? And how do we create a hybrid sort of experience, uh, for the people that we're trying to reach? Because, you know, me, my story, like I'm a pastor, and so I've been called by God to reach people, make disciples, um, and share with them the mi, the mission, message, and hope found only in Jesus. And so how do we do that? And so for, you know, the majority of our lifetime, uh, we've done that through the local body, um, of the church.

Nick Clason (02:03):
And I believe that that's, that's a theological, um, understanding of what we have going on, right? Like the theological implications, Hebrew chapter 10, verse 24 and 25, Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Not giving up meeting together is somewhere in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another in all the more, as you see the day approaching, it's a biblical mandate for us to do life together. And by no means am I proposing that we don't do that. Um, so like I said, I'm a pastor, um, specifically I'm a youth pastor, uh, work in the Dallas, Texas area. And I just started a new job, started a new job, um, at, uh, going on two months now at this point. But the first month was, uh, remote and traveling back and forth between Dallas and Chicago, where I, I lived before.

Nick Clason (02:56):
And so, yeah, I really only feel like I've been here like 20 something days or whatever since, you know, since I was able to kind of get in here full time and get things going. So, you know, one of the, and, and listen, before I jump into this, this could feel like a slight or a, you know, a dig at the church I'm at, or the churches that I've been in in my lifetime. And the fact is I'm very thankful for every single opportunity that I've been given. Um, I see how every, uh, stop in my journey, in my career, uh, has led me to a very specific spot in my life and how God has orchestrated, um, and paved those ways. And so, you know, there's some, uh, there's some jobs that I've had, you know, that, that have some hurt. Um, and there's definitely like some moments in my life and in my ministry career that, um, I've, you know, I've struggled with or whatever.

Nick Clason (04:01):
Um, but I'm thankful for each and every stop along the way. I'm thankful for what I've learned at each and every stop along the way, um, and how the Lord has used that to grow me and give me just a, a perspective. And so I say all that to say what I'm about to say. Uh, like I said, may seem like I'm poking holes, like I'm digging, like I'm frustrated and I want as much as I can to preface that and say, I'm really, I'm not okay, especially if you're my boss or HR person and you're signing my paycheck, very appreciative for the job that you've given me. But what I've most recently, especially in this most recent onboarding, and so where I work now, I'm thrilled. I love my job. I love what I do. Um, I love, you know, they believe in me and they're giving me opportunities to go out and run and innovate and try some stuff.

Nick Clason (04:57):
And so for that, I'm incredibly thankful. Um, however, a lot of this stuff is popping up in my brain because of the fact that I'm starting somewhere new. And so, while I'm incredibly thankful what I'm about to say when I'm about to kind of like, um, I dunno, shine a light on, if you will, may seem like I'm aiming it at the church that I'm currently employed at. And by no means am I trying to, like I said, shine a light and be frustrated, whatever. So I think of caveat of that enough, it's been like two minutes of caveat, so you're probably ready to hear what I'm about to say. So in the whole onboarding process, um, actually, lemme see if I can pull it up. Um, in my email, when I first started, I got, um, information on how to set up, uh, my account for our church database, church management software.

Nick Clason (05:54):
Um, I also got information on all my benefits, which obviously I need that, and I'm grateful for, and I'm thankful for, right? Um, let's see, what else do I, I got, I got information on, uh, how to join, like the staff, um, info portal, like, um, it's called leader, Uh, you know, so it's like that plus like, uh, what's, you know, uh, development and stuff like that. Um, email, um, expenses, a couple of different portals for expenses. Um, and then our request, uh, system, which is like requests and calendars, maintenance things. Um, and I'm trying to think what else. Oh, there's, then there's task management software, um, that I had to learn. Then there's keys and there's fobs, uh, to get into doors. And then there's meetings with like department heads, you know, so like, um, how do we, in our, like I'm a youth pastor, so how do we, um, interact with the tech team?

Nick Clason (06:57):
How do we interact with the worship team? How do we interact with the creative team? How do we interact with the communications team and how do we interact with the facilities team? Um, a lot of the answers to that fall under the systems and like portals that I just listed out. Um, however, there's another like meeting to just sort of like a get to know people and then be like, um, kind of hash it out, chat it out, right? And so I, again, I say all that to say like, there's a lot of focus on those things. And as a pastor, um, Jesus committed all of his disciples, including pastors, to go make disciples, make more disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them, commanding them. Any promise that he'll be with us, promise us his presence. I'll be with you always to the very end of the age.

Nick Clason (07:53):
It's Matthew, uh, 28, 18 through 20. So I, I think, again, caveat, love, love my job. I think anyone that you're like questioning, like, why do we need this? Why do we, that this, the other thing, Well, those processes help make us more efficient so that we can, um, not waste time on details and tasks, and those things don't get dropped. And so then thus, therefore, we can be more effective and freed up to make disciples great. I mean, I agree with that. I agree with that on paper. Okay. And then, um, you know, you think about, think about like, what do we do as the church, right? So if I sit down, I'm like, Hey, I need to understand what my role as a youth pastor is in relation to worship, in relation to tech, in relation to facilities, right? Like, what does that, why, why is all that important?

Nick Clason (08:57):
Well, because I'm gonna be using the building. So we need the sound, the lights, the worship, the music, the facility to be ready, set up for a, you know, for what? For our event. Well, what's the purpose of our event? Well, that's to make disciples, right? It's really easy. And Ayanna, I can't remember who coined this term, you know, but I'm sure you've heard it before, right? There's, there's the tyranny of the urgent, right? There's always something more urgent, pressing. Like right now, I'm looking at my computer and I have one big red, uh, bubble on my email saying I have an unread email. And my human inclination, in fact, like computer companies, software companies, like they, they build it this way to give it like this, like, you know, urgency type of thing. So it's like, Oh, I gotta check that notification, right? That's, that's always the case.

Nick Clason (09:55):
We're always looking to figure out like, what is the most important thing? What do we need to handle most? And so in my church, we meet on Wednesday nights, we also meet on Sunday mornings. And so, and that's, I've had that rhythm before. Uh, but I, I'm most recently came from a church before this where we only had like one week worth of, uh, one thing per week of stu student ministry programming. So Wednesday and Sunday, like, that's, that's rapid to me. Like, it, it feels like much more, uh, much more frenetic of a pace. Frenetic is the wrong word, but like, the frequency is just doubled, right? It's from one time a week to not two times a week, Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. And those gaps are shorter. And so to get my things done in between those two are quicker. And so, like I said, I'm always turning around and finding myself like, Oh, you know, I'm recording this on a Tuesday night, tomorrow morning, uh, is Wednesday, I'll be at church all day long.

Nick Clason (10:51):
And then, because I'm at church all day long on Wednesday, um, I will work most of my day on Thursday and be off on Friday. I gotta get everything between, you know, tomorrow and Thursday ready and locked and loaded for Sunday. And I may in fact get some stuff ready and locked and loaded for Sunday, tomorrow, on Wednesday before I ever even, uh, you know, host the next event. I'm two events ahead, right? And that's, if I'm really, you know, most people say, Oh, it's if you're really well planned and that's, you're really on top of things. And, and I like to think I am. However, that there, you know, there's always, like, you always work best under pressure. Um, there's actually like a psychological term of that called like forced focus. And so if you're forced to focus, like as you're zeroing in on an event, no matter how good, and well you are planned out, like, you'll come up with something, you're like, Shoot, it was a good idea.

Nick Clason (11:47):
I should have done that. You know, So anyway, all that right? Aha. That to be said, What, why are we doing church? Like, we're not in the event business, but we are a little bit, right? And here's why. This is a hybrid conversation because, uh, 10, even 10 years ago, maybe like 20 at the most, right? The way to gather together in the way to disseminate, uh, information, theological information, with the exception of the Bible in like print pieces, using printing press, books, magazines, whatever, newspaper articles, like the only way to distribute that information was through the local church. And so thus, the regular gathering was really important because you'd come together and maybe the church would have access to these print pieces of these magazines. They'd get 'em in bulk or whatever, and they'd provide them for their parishioners, their congregation members. But now, since the advent of the internet, all that stuff is available to people.

Nick Clason (12:51):
And so the novelty of church or the uniqueness that it brought, it, it almost feels like it's not there as much. And then again, what are we doing? Like, we're making disciples through the context of hosting events. And I, I, I, I think events matter, and I think they're important. Um, you know, but like, like I, I told you a couple episodes ago, go back and listen to it where I said, Hey, here's what we're, you know, trying to do on social media or whatever, Um, trying to launch some stuff. I just pulled TikTok open on my account, and that's why you heard some background noise on that. Um, and I'm gonna do it again right here, but, um, listen, like I, we posted a like sermon, uh, recap deal, um, couple weeks ago, and I had a 437 views on, on one of those, right?

Nick Clason (13:49):
That's one of my higher ones. That's, that's, you know, better than most. But here's the thing that's kind of crazy. Think about like, when I gather all my students together, um, I have like a hundred, a hundred students, and that's, that's good, right? That's, that's pretty big. Um, some, you know, somewhere between 102 hundred students all together, if everyone showed up, you, if you're a youth pastor, you know how this goes, right? And so, uh, what's more advantageous? Well, I know, I know the students in my room, so I have a captive audience. I'm able to disciple them a little bit better. I'm able to craft the message, um, so that they hear what, you know, maybe they need to hear whatever they're like struggling with or through. However, like the reach on TikTok is like five times that with that one video. You know, some videos are smaller, like, you know, the most recent one I think had like 19.

Nick Clason (14:44):
So it's, it's obviously a lot, a lot smaller. And, uh, TikTok is less about who you follow and more about being, being discovered. And so, um, what is the next step for those audience members and all that stuff. All all that being said, like I know I find myself being challenged to be a disciple maker, be a dis be a disciple myself, of Jesus, and out of the overflow of that, make more and better disciples of him. And the, the context or the fabric, which with which at least the majority of the time of my job is soaked into, is through executing and, um, planning events, maintaining a physical facility, and, you know, worrying about branding, messaging, signage, like all those ancillary pieces. And you know, when it's all said and done, like officially on my, like, I don't, I don't have a time sheet, I'm salaried, right?

Nick Clason (15:53):
But if I did like on my time sheet, like Sunday mornings with students is probably like two hours. And then Wednesday nights with students is another like two hours. And if I'm like a really good youth pastor and I'm like getting coffee or going to football games, let's say that's another like two to four hours. Like in my 40 hour week, I spend eight, eight hours a great week, maybe 10 hours if I'm like super over the top, like really on it with actual teenagers. And like, I get it, right? Like in Ephesians, Paul said, Equipped the saints for works and acts of service. And like you heard, to have a hundred, a hundred plus kids, like, and we have small group leaders that, you know, it's, it's technically their job on our, in our pipeline to like, make that happen. But like, call to make disciples.

Nick Clason (16:45):
And so again, I say all this to say like, I'm not disgruntled, not angry. I love my church. And quite frankly, like I'm here because I'm so passionate about this hybrid stuff and in marrying like the digital with the physical, not because I love digital so much, cuz I really don't, but because I think that, well, I know that there's 167 other hours a week that the one hour a week that kids are sitting in our service, in my church I have too. So 166 hours in addition in a student's life, what am I doing then? How am I reaching a student where they are? How are they learning, growing, developing deeper into the core characters of Christ and doing the things that he challenged them to do? How else are they coming across those things? If it's not just a wins in night when they're in the building with me, or on a Sunday morning when they're in the building with me. Like when else are they being challenged by their youth pastor, by their church to live out their faith, to live out their faith, to learn the knowledge, to understand the things and tenants of the Bible, but

Nick Clason (17:48):
Also then to carry out that message to their friends, to reach their friends who are far from Jesus, to, to share the message of hope, the gospel with their friends who don't know him, to grow deeper in their relationship, to hone their skills, their character, so that it mirrors more closely like Christ to, to follow what, what his mission was that he laid out. I mean, this is so much more than how do I return in my receipts and how do I learn the softwares in the systems? Like I get it, right? Like at church is an organization. And without those things, you know, it would probably be far less effective. I get it. And you know, it's, it, it, maybe it's just a necessary evil, I don't know. Um, but it's just, it's something that got me thinking, like, you know, sit in a staff meeting today and we're just going over tons and tons of logistics and you know, like I said, I love my job.

Nick Clason (18:45):
I have a really great job, and they're, they're allowing us to think outside the box and allowing us to break the mold a little bit. And so I'm, I'm really grateful for that. Um, but I just wonder if sometimes church, not just my church, all churches get a sucked into the tyranny of the urgent and b, turn into event makers as opposed to makers of disciples, builders of disciples, crafting, honing the next generation to look and act more like the person of Jesus. Like that's, that was his commission. So if we start with that, if we, if we start with the why, like why do we do this? And is an event the most effective way to do it? Probably, Or at least, at least if it's not, it's, it's a part of a hybrid solution to what the future looks like. And I don't have all the answers.

Nick Clason (19:38):
And that's you. That's, I think that's why I'm coming across passionate and potentially angry. I'm not angry. I'm really not. I'm just, I, I'm really, I'm right now I'm gonna study provided through my church about 50 days through the life of Christ. It's an amazing study. I've done it before. I'm doing it again, just being reminded about how intentional Jesus was about investing in people living life with his disciples and modeling for them what his ministry model was. And, and then I turn around and I'm, you know, I'm having to like, figure out how to like submit her a seat cuz I've never done it before. Cuz you know, I always had my admin do it. And, uh, she, she recently left and started a new job somewhere else. And so we're looking for one. And you know, I'm like slugging through that a little bit and I'm like, man, I get it.

Nick Clason (20:28):
Like right. It's necessary. And if anyone, if anyone from where I work hears this, they're gonna like, think I'm just this ungrateful, you know, complaining guy. Like I'm not, I'm really not. I'm just, I'm wrestling with like, what's the most important and how do we, how do we create something to respond to the tyranny of the urgent while not losing ourselves in the making of disciples. And I think that that's, I think every youth pastor, I think every pastor, every person in vocational ministry feels that tension at some point. So if you're in vocational ministry, let me hear it from you. Um, we're in this together and like I said, I love where I work. I don't have all the answers, um, but it's just something that got me thinking today. So I don't know. Listen bro, this is like a stream of consciousness. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna have chapter markers for this at the end of the day. Like this is just me rambling talking for 20 minutes. So if you found a helpful, let me know. Reach out on Twitter at hybrid ministry or, uh, swing by the website, hybridministry.xyz. Uh, and until next time, we'll talk to you later. Peace out my friends.

In this episode, Nick recounts his experience with his most recent move and his moving company, and pulls out some wisdom he discovered along the way about how to approach ministry and more particularly, Hybrid Ministry. Learn to Think Digital, Be Kind and Be Clear!

Follow us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or online at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TIMECODES
00:00-01:19 Intro and Housekeeping
01:19-05:47 Thinking Digital
05:47-09:07 Kindness goes a long way
09:07-12:17 Be Clear
12:17-15:02 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What up everybody? Welcome to episode number 13, um, of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, as always, Nick Clason. And, um, bad news, Matt is in Spain, and, um, he just started a new job. And so I was talking to him last week on the phone and he has to figure out his computer situation. Doesn't even know if he is gonna have one or not. So listen, there may be some changes on the horizon. He may be back. Maybe I'll figure something out. Um, maybe not, but that's okay. Um, and I'll just be honest. Um, my moving truck came in today, Oh my word. It has been 10 days of sleeping on an air mattress. And I don't know if you've seen that TikTok about corn. It's such a beautiful thing. Uh, but if you go follow me on TikTok at Clason, nick, it's c l a s o n, no Y in there.

Nick Clason (01:00):
Um, I just posted TikTok about how my bed is the most beautiful thing, not corn. Sorry kid. Oh man. It's so good to sleep on a, on a regular mattress again. Uh, actually I haven't even done that yet. I am recording before I go to bed. Um, all that being said, probably gonna be a pretty short pod. Uh, but I wanted to talk a little bit about this idea. Um, and I just wanna brand it. Say, um, let's try to think digital, um, why we're not gonna think digital because of digital for digital's sake, right? But what I wanna do with thinking digital is, first of all, couple of ideas. Number one, uh, when things are made digital, it's just easier, right? And so, you know, I think there's sometimes this notion in church of the fact of like, if you're gonna follow Jesus, it's gonna be hard.

Nick Clason (01:55):
So we're not gonna make it easy on you, so suck it up. And if you wanna send up to serve, we're not gonna give it to you in two clicks. You gotta go talk to Carl, who's the head usher and get on Carl's Excel spreadsheet, right? Or whatever the case may be. But digital is just so much easier. Um, I'll give you an example. Talking about my moving company. Um, they took my stuff 10 days ago or so in Chicago and, um, no one was super clear with me about what the process was gonna be. So, uh, the next day I just called the company. I was like, Hey, so how do we like schedule this? They're like, Oh, we'll call you. And that was it. And I just, uh, there was some stuff and moving companies are never like the most upright, forthright. So there was just some stuff that like concerned me a little bit.

Nick Clason (02:51):
And so, uh, I wasn't, I was not okay with that being the only answer. And so I wanted to continue. I stayed on 'em, I stayed hot on their tail. Uh, but it was a pain in the, But let me tell you what, like, uh, they did not have an infrastructure for somebody who was interested in knowing the whereabouts of the contents of their house. Uh, their, their infrastructure was when we're ready to bring you your things, we will tell you. But until then we got nothing for you. Um, compare that to Amazon, Who has an updated ETA delivery? Lets, you know when the item is 10 stops away from your house and you can track it on the, on the map. Like, uh, what I was thinking I should have done, you know, after, of course everything's loaded and I'm here in Texas just waiting for my stuff to arrive.

Nick Clason (03:48):
So I was like, Man, I should have put some sort of find my iPhone or GPS tracking device or something on the truck just so I can know where the contents of my house were sitting. You know, like that, that has just been interesting to me. And you know, I don't think that this moving company has any desire to, uh, to change their ways, you know? But I was reaching out, I was thinking about reaching out to 'em and just saying, Hey, you know, if you had some sort of tracking system or whatever, like that would've made a my life a lot easier, but b, yours as well. Cause I wouldn't have called you 36 times trying to figure out where everything was. So think digital. How can you make it easier? How can you give, uh, an how can, how can you give a, uh, user experience one that's just a little bit easier?

Nick Clason (04:39):
So think about someone at your church wants to sign up to serve. Can they find that information on your website? If they want to attend your church, can they find that information on your website? If they want to join a small group, do they have to ask somebody what in the world the name of this small group means? Because it's some acronym that you created 36 years ago that no one even really remembers anymore, but everyone just calls it the Frog Group. And you're like, Oh yeah, what's that mean? Like, fuck yo. Yeah. Fully rely on God. Yeah, Carl named it that 10 years ago, right? I don't know what my vendetta is against Kyle, Kyle, Carl, but what, like, do you have something, um, that's clear and that makes it easier for the person? Because the fact is, like, as things get more difficult, uh, people just tend to give up. So keep that in mind. And you're like, Well, that's not committed. Yeah, it's also just human psychology. And so it's not that people aren't committed, but, but make it, make it like, make it accessible for people. Make them be able to attach to it.

Nick Clason (05:48):
All right? Another idea, um, I had on thinking digital is, is this, um, again, tales from a moving company. Um, the customer service of this moving company was awful, right? So the movers, um, in Chicago were fine. The movers in Dallas, uh, they were super kind and so, so much better than the movers that I had in Chicago. Um, the guy who sold me, uh, the truck and everything, great guy. Um, but also like, not total, not sure if he was totally truthful. And then, but the person in between, they put me in, in touch with, uh, George. So George sold me on the moving company and everything like that. They put me in touch with George's manager. Her name is Pauline. And, um, I don't know if I've ever met somebody who is, uh, seems so annoyed with human contact in my entire life.

Nick Clason (06:48):
And I'm not trying to be mean, and I'm not trying to be like a, an an awful Christian, right? But like, she had no desire to talk to me. Like her company held the contents of my entire life. And I was just calling to say, Hey Pauline, how's things going? Any idea on the eta my truck? Again, mind you, they have no way to let me know that. Like, they just give me a window and say that's when it's gonna be. So I'm just supposed to be okay with that, right? Meanwhile, everyone I'm talking to is like, that's taking forever. That's crazy. Why is this so long? And then I'm talking to them and they're like, No, it's not, it's not that long. Like, you just feel like it's long. It's really not that big a deal. Like what? What? Right? You know? So it's like I call her and I just felt like I was annoying her.

Nick Clason (07:36):
She's like, Hello. Um, and so be kind to people like figure out the best way in which you can, um, make people's lives easier. Like how, how is your interaction with that person going to make their life easier? And then let's think about how you can do that digitally. Because the fact of the matter is, if you're a church, you're probably only only interacting with someone on a Sunday morning or maybe a Wednesday night or some midweek type of deal. How can you also bring that level of customer service? How can you bring that level of joy and satisfaction to your digital channels, to your social media so that the people that are following you, so the people that are engaging with you, are seeing the joy that Jesus has brought into your life. And you're exuding that not only in your in-person interactions, but also in your digital interactions.

Nick Clason (08:26):
See, that stuff matters. And I'll just tell you, as somebody who's been on the other side of a not so joyful person and company, um, it has made my experience with this company terrible. I I will never use them again. And quite honestly, this is like the third move I've made that's been significant, where I've had to load up a truck and all that stuff, and honestly, they probably did the best job of any moving company I've ever done, uh, as far as like the actual loading and the actual wrapping of a furniture and all those types of things. But the reality is I'll never go with them again. Why customer service? They made me feel terrible and they made me feel stupid the entire way through. Last thing, be clear. Be clear with what's going on. Again, um, tales from a moving company. So, uh, this guy George, he, he books me, uh, for, um, a, you know, a price.

Nick Clason (09:22):
And he says, I'm overestimating based on what you're telling me. So you're probably gonna pay less. Guy walks in Chicago, and he's like, uh, it's actually gonna be $3,000 more than, um, what George told you on the phone. Like, hold on a minute, right? Like, that's a lot of money. And uh, of course in reading the reviews, it sounded like this was standard practice for this company. Um, but, but then, right? Like I said, then they drove away. And it wasn't until later that night or the next day, we were dawned on me, I was like, Wait a minute. I don't know how to schedule pick up. I don't know when to expect my truck. Like, I, I have no idea, right? Like, I just, there's no clarity on the process, right? And so think about if someone wants to volunteer in your ministry, are you clear on what the steps are, right?

Nick Clason (10:17):
Like I'm a youth pastor, and so to volunteer in youth ministry, in most cases, and in most churches, it's gonna be, uh, quite, quite cumbersome to be honest with you, because we're gonna be running back around checks and we're gonna be probably checking references, and we're probably gonna be having you do some sort of, uh, training, um, that, you know, some video training on, you know, sexual abuse or, uh, mandated reporting or the child protective services laws in your state, or whatever the case may, right? Like it takes a lot to get you into a position of influence and into the same room with a bunch of teenagers, rightfully so, as it should, right? But be clear, if someone's like, I wanna volunteer youth ministry, great, you're on the team, and then they get home and they have 37 emails from you, from your admin, from the screening company, from whatever, and you're calling references, and they didn't give chance to give those references a head up heads up.

Nick Clason (11:17):
Like, just be clear. And, and even if it's right, like if this company, this moving company would've told me like, Hey, it's gonna be seven to 17 days for transit from Chicago to Texas. While that's a long time, and I'm not a fan of that, Like I would've known it and I wouldn't have been freaking out quite as much wondering where in the world my things are because there was no one laid it out for me. There was no clarity. I had to go seek it out. And by the time I got to the end of the line, I got to a customer service representative who didn't really want to talk to any customers. And so if they would've laid that out, I wouldn't have had to a slug through so many phone calls, you know, call the company, press one for this, two for that, and getting myself worked up or myself frustrated all the way along the way.

Nick Clason (12:06):
So, so just be clear, right? So number one, think digital. Number two, be nice, be kind to people. And number three, be clear and lay things out. Again, like I said, um, you got the brunt of my frustration of unloading, unpacking, moving truck, but we're here, we're settled. And, uh, listen, like, say whatever you want, think whatever you want, but I've been able to keep these suckers rolling out every Thursday morning consistently. And so that's been a feat in and of itself. Like I said, now that things are hopefully settling down a little bit, uh, we'll be able to maybe line up schedule with Matt. If not, that's fine. I'm gonna keep, uh, solo pod in it and just, uh, do my best Colin Cowherd impression. Uh, but excited to be continuing on this journey with you. Uh, in the couple weeks, I wanna let you know how our digital initiative stuff are going.

Nick Clason (13:00):
We had a website conversation with our communications people last week, um, here in Texas at our church to create a more hub style, uh, website. Um, and then this week, um, so I'm like five of six, six tos in. Um, I've gone head first into a three day TikTok posting strategy. So it's a lot of forethought and planning, but, uh, this is now the second time I've done it, and so I found it to be quite a bit easier. And so, um, while it may seem daunting at first, once you kind of get your bearings a little bit, um, you'll, you'll be a little, you know, you'll be a little bit better. And then last, uh, listen, I mean, there's nothing to be proud of. And, um, I'm shooting right now on a same Sun Galaxy S nine phone, terrible quality. I just, uh, pre-ordered the brand new, uh, Google Pixel Pro seven, so it's like the best camera right there on the market, either between that or the newest iPhone.

Nick Clason (13:57):
So, um, it's weird, I'm an Apple guy for everything, but for phones, I'm, I'm the same or I'm a Android person. So when you do Google Pixel, um, and uh, check out the new phone quality on that. Uh, but if you wanna go check out what we're posting on TikTok, we're at first Colville students, um, on TikTok and Instagram, posting the exact same content both on reels there on Instagram and on TikTok. So, like I said, we're just getting started with that this week. Um, and it's gonna be a lot of me on there. I'm gonna try and diversify it with my team here in the coming weeks, but just wanted to get things up and rolling, uh, there on TikTok. So, hey, thanks for hanging out. Appreciate it. Uh, love to hear from you guys. We're hybridministry.xyz online. We're also @hybridministry on Twitter. And, uh, we'll talk to you next time. See you guys.

SHOWNOTES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqhrIqTy2ZE&t=914s

https://prochurchtools.libsyn.com/email-newsletters-overwhelmed-church-staff-social-media-predictions-gone-wrong

https://prochurchtools.libsyn.com/email-open-rates-subject-lines-removing-inactive-subscribers

https://prochurchtools.com/7-proven-church-newsletter-ideas-that-really-work/

TIMECODES
00:00-01:13 Intro
01:13-03:03 My Digital Ministry Proposal for my Youth Ministry
03:03-04:01 Back Story
04:01-06:22 Why I love plain text emails
06:22-07:49 Building the Website from Scratch
07:49-12:17 Mapping out the Student Website
12:17-13:05 What to include on a parent website
13:05-13:54 What leaders need on a website
13:54-15:11 Why most church websites don't know who their intended audience is
15:11-15:42 How often to send emails
15:42-16:46 Youth or Student Ministry for SEO?
16:46-17:52 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Ooh, what's going on everybody. Uh, welcome to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be joining you today this morning. Um, bright and beautiful morning. Uh, I am all, I'm doing another solo pod and I'm so sad cuz I love, love talking to Matt. Um, and we will probably share nothing bad, man. Like nothing bad. Uh, we'll probably share in a future episode, what is going on? Um, life is a little influx for both of us to be completely honest. Uh, as I said in the last episode I had just recently taken a job at a church in Texas. I'm currently sitting in the basement of my house in Illinois. Um, I am leaving for Disney in a day to go on vacation with my family. Uh, so life is absolutely chaos in mayhem. And so anyway, um, I wanted to just hop on here and uh, you know, just talk through a couple of things and uh, share some insights today.

Nick Clason (01:11):
Specifically I wanted to talk about the most recent digital ministry hybrid ministry proposal that I put together for the church that I'm working at. Um, and so, uh, gosh, maybe it was like five or so episodes ago I explained, you know, what we were doing at the church I was working at where I'm going, does not have as clearly of a defined digital strategy. It's also in the south. Um, it's the buckle of the Bible belt, Dallas. It feels like. Right. And so, um, there's a lot more of an in person kind of moment. And so how do we take what's already going on in person and create hybrid options? Why would we even wanna do that? What's the purpose of digital ministry, especially if an in person thing is going so well. And so I wanna jump in and explain kind of all of that today.

Nick Clason (02:01):
That's kind of the point, but like I said, we're a little bit in transition. My goal is to still never miss a Thursday drop. Uh, we have these set to go live every Thursday at four o'clock in the morning. And so as soon as you wake up on Thursday after a night of youth ministry, if your youth pastor or on your commute on the way on, in, on a Thursday, you should see one of these. You should get one of these in your podcast, catcher. Hey, listen. Also, we would just love it. If you would share the word. If you'd get this out there with a friend post on social media, tag us on Twitter at hybrid ministry, our website for we have full show notes, transcripts, we provide those all for you. A hundred percent for free at hybridministry.xyz also on our blog on there, we have a free downloadable checklist.

Nick Clason (02:48):
So go check that out. Um, anytime you post social media dos and don'ts, um, that's relevant as of now, you know, as long as algorithms and social networks don't change anything. But anyway, all that to be said, let's dive in. I wanted to, uh, chat a little bit. So just quick backstory, um, where I'm headed, uh, where I just most recent took good job is, um, the same place that, uh, my boss, a former boss, um, at my old job, uh, is now working as well. So he went to this church and, um, through a series of amazing supernatural, um, and other confirmation events I felt as the Lord was telling me to also go there, um, after having been offered an opportunity. And so that's kind of that, like I said, I, I think at some point me and Matt will share kind of our journeys and what's going on and, and all those types of things, but I'm gonna say that for another episode, but all that to be said, um, I'm walking into a brand new environment, but I'm walking into the exact same boss.

Nick Clason (03:52):
And so things are a little bit interesting. And so on like day two, I put together a proposal and I probably wouldn't have put together such a strong proposal. Um, however I put it together because I wanted to, uh, or I mean a cuz he trusted me and, and B cuz I had a lot of desires and opinions. And so the first thing which just started off of was he was saying, Hey man, do some research on email marketing. I was like, okay, fine. Right. Like, you know, I don't know if you know this or not. I host podcast, no big deal. Right. all about digital ministry hybrid ministry. Obviously I was joking. Um, the children's pastor at the church has an email newsletter and uh, I don't know. Um, one of the, one of the guys I'm super, um, I, I, that influences me a lot in this space is Brady sheer, um, of pro church tools, pro church tools podcast, and um, him along with a lot of research from HubSpot and stuff like that, they really, really push against marketing type emails and they push strongly towards plain text type emails.

Nick Clason (05:01):
Say they say that open rates are higher. Um, email algorithms, yes. Emails have algorithms. Uh, they, uh, email algorithms, you know, play more nicely with emails that look plain, text that look like it's just like a friend to a friend type of conversation as opposed to something that you would get from some gigantic corporation with a bunch of graphics and things like that. And so, um, you know, my, my boss, former boss also now current boss and friend, um, so I was, again able to be a little more direct. I feel like than if I was just starting completely brand new was like, Hey, I want this, I want our emails to look like the kids' ministry emails. He forwarded it to me and I said, Hey, that looks great. And it did. I mean, it looks amazing. Um, I said, however, you know, I sent 'em look like probably five or six links.

Nick Clason (05:53):
Um, and I can link those in the show notes. Uh, but I, I said five or six links about like, Hey, here's why we don't want to do this. Right. And, uh, he wasn't totally convinced. And so I said, Hey, here's the thing. Um, let's take a look at, um, maybe creating this in a website style. And so that's kinda, what I wanna talk about today is this, this proposal I put together for a hub based website. And so the communications guy at the church I'm working at now was not in the office last week. So, um, I sent this to my boss. He's going to sit down with the communications guy and pitch it when I'm gone at Disney next week. Uh, all that being said, I have no idea where this is gonna head, but this is kind of like us starting, um, hybrid digital ministry from the ground up.

Nick Clason (06:46):
Currently we have a website and we have an Instagram and that is it. There's really nothing else. I mean, we have an email list as well. It's pulled out of our church management software. And so what I wanted to do is I wanna do a hub style website where anyone at any time could go and check out. And so, uh, the thing in student ministry, um, like I said, I'm a youth pastor. So if you're not a youth pastor, um, this still applies. But, but the thing in student ministry, I think there's, what is your intended audience on your website? Is it students? Is it parents? Is it leaders? And the honest truth is that it's probably all three. And so I don't know the best way to do this, but what I think is that you go to a central kinda landing spot, a central sort of website.

Nick Clason (07:34):
And then you say from there students, parents leaders with like a button for each, or like a page for each or a link for each or whatever. Right. Um, and each of those have a different reason, a different purpose, right? So, um, students, I, I think you wanna link upcoming events. You may wanna have sign up calendars. Um, but also, and this is the thing I'm really, really trying to double down on. And this is the whole reason for me personally, why I'm so passionate about hybrid ministry is I want digital discipleship tools. I don't know where you land on it. As far as your definition of discipleship. I believe that discipleship has a life on life component. If you look at Jesus and the way that he modeled life with his disciples, he literally lived with them. They came and see, they checked it out and then they come and they followed him and then he started giving them more and more assignments.

Nick Clason (08:32):
And then until eventually ultimately he left all of the next steps of the church in their hands, all of that done life on life. And I think that there should be a life on life component. I think there should be a physical non-digital in person meeting. Right. And that's why this whole thing, right? We're not talking about it being physical versus digital. We're talking about hybrid. How do both of these two things marry? Why? Because, um, while I would love to be a youth pastor that when people look at me, they say, I see Jesus in you. And I model my life in my ministry after Jesus. I also, um, cannot spend the same amount of time with the people I am attempting to disciple the same way that Jesus did. I mean, I guess I could. Right. But that would require me to, um, sell all my possessions, be homeless and wander around from place to place.

Nick Clason (09:29):
And while that may sound noble and amazing to some of you out there and you're like, yeah, did you should totally do that. I have a wife and kids and I just, you know, our American system doesn't really lend itself that well to it. And I'm not trying to be facetious here, honestly, I'm just saying it, there are constraints, um, that I have placed on my own life. Right. But also constraints within the American working system and whatnot. And so I love the idea of digital resources because it allows there to be other pieces, elements of content that can take place in the gaps, in the margins, in between our, in person meetings. Right. So, uh, right now, like I said, we have an Instagram, so that's posting on the fee. That's also posting on reels, as we've said, a billion times on this podcast, short form, video content as king.

Nick Clason (10:21):
And so we want to continue to double down on that. I want to continue to double down on that as a part of my proposal. And as a part of us building this thing from the ground up, I also wanna explore the idea of a daily video slash audio podcast. Did I say daily? I didn't mean daily, but a video audio, um, podcast, perhaps some daily devotionals, those could live on YouTube. Um, they could also just go short form on TikTok. And I also love the idea of blog style articles or some written devotional type content. That's either custom or that is curated. And so those are some elements. And in all of that as a youth pastor, I have to think what about the sixth grader? What about the seventh grader? What about the eighth grader? Um, that their parents won't allow them to have a phone.

Nick Clason (11:16):
And so I want all this stuff to be able to live on a website so that they can go there and there's pulled content from our YouTube channel. They can click, they can go to YouTube. They don't need a phone. They don't need YouTube account to watch it. Same with TikTok. I actually like the TikTok sharing link algorithm pretty well, cuz you don't unlike Instagram. Um, it's much easier to interface with it without an account. Of course it's easier with it. It always is. They try to make it that way. Right. Um, and same with the video or audio podcast probably hosted on YouTube or whatever and whatnot, all of those to be digital type discipleship tools that entire framework's not built out. Right. But I want to create a central student hub where people can go to students specifically can go to and be both a informed about what's going on times, whatever, what, not calendar events, but also, um, grab some things that can help them grow in their faith and help them grow closer to Jesus.

Nick Clason (12:18):
Then we want a parent hub and um, same thing, upcoming calendar events, signups links out to social media, perhaps a parent specific only Facebook group. I think that Facebook is used best in that format in ministry, um, for group type settings. And um, you know, so like parents are probably some of the, the most active users on it. I don't think we should neglect Facebook altogether, but I don't think it's super prevalent and relevant for students. And then same thing for them. I wanna also offer parent discipleship type tools, maybe a parent podcast, maybe some parent based articles and then some curated materials links out to other things, materials, whatever, whatnot. Um, and then finally leaders, um, a leader hub as well. So calendar of events, um, lessons, small group materials, videos of the upcoming lessons, if they're prerecorded or anything like that. Um, leader resources links to Facebook groups or group MES, um, applications to serve.

Nick Clason (13:27):
Uh, and then also some leader growth slash discipleship type tools, podcast, article, curative materials, right? And so what we wanna try and create is a place where like everyone at any time knows exactly where to go to such and such website. And they always go there, students go there, parents go there leaders go there. And then from there, it's clear if you're a student, you dive down this path. If you're a parent, you dive down this path and if you're a leader, you dive down this path. In my experience as a youth pastor, I've looked around, there are not a ton of amazing youth ministry websites out there. And I think part of the problem is because there are multiple intended audiences. Is it for students or is it for parents or is it for leaders? And I think in a lot of cases, and this is a super basic and easy marketing premise, right?

Nick Clason (14:18):
But the, the bottom line, the reality of it is, is that you gotta know who your audience is. And a lot of times, I don't know that that's all the way defined. So who is your audience? Figure that out and Noah, and in this case, we're realizing that there are three audiences that we really care about and that we want to aim and that we want to hit and that we want to create custom content for all three of them either create it or curate it, which means find other things out there on the internet to help kinda resource that. And then from there, if everything is built onto a website and if the website is ruthlessly updated, I think a lot of times too, youth pastors or churches think of their website as their last stop, as opposed to their first. So if the website remains ruthlessly updated, then you can just do a weekly, plain text, email scheduled from a person, pastor Craig, pastor, John, Andrew, whatever the names are.

Nick Clason (15:21):
Right. Um, historically I've heard that the best times to send an email is Tuesday at 9:00 AM. I dunno if that's still true, it's something I've been doing for 10 years now. Um, and then I think that, uh, you can pay attention to subscribers and open rates and click throughs through a thing like MailChimp or, um, maybe your church management software offers that ability. The last thing, um, that you know, is just interesting is, um, one of the things we're, we're debating right now and I'll let you know, kind of where we land is, do we keep the name students or do we switch over to using youth for search engine optimization purposes? What, what Matt has found and, you know, Matt used to be a marketer for dare to share. And so he found that overseas students was used a lot more frequently in America.

Nick Clason (16:12):
Youth ministry is the preferred term, especially on, um, Google and stuff. And actually he was showing that if you look up the word students, um, oftentimes it's in relation to college, collegiate ministry, stuff like that. And so, uh, that was just a super interesting thing. And so again, as we're building from the ground up, we're having these conversations, we, my boss and I, we both like the word youth, um, you know, can we get, can we get the church on board for it? Um, what's the branding implications, all those types of things, but that's another conversation that we're having with our, uh, communications people. So there you have it, there is my hub style website proposal for church. I'll let you know how it goes, bringing you a long lifetime for it again. Thanks for being here. Hey, hybridministry.xyz is your one stop shop for everything that we have to offer. Um, again, like I said, in our last episode, we're looking to continue to create more and more resources for you. Look for those coming here in the next month or so as Matt and I both kind of get our feet under us about what's next and where we're headed. Um, look forward to having him back on the pod at some point, but until then, stuck with me, glad to be with you. Um, and we will talk again later. Thanks guys. Check you out on the flippty flip

TIMECODES
00:00-1:37 Who is Gen Z?
1:37-6:07 Gen Z prefers small groups more than large gatherings
6:07-10:25 Industrial vs. Digital Thinking
10:25-16:24 Busyness is not the problem
16:24-27:14 How to make a ministry model of small groups
27:14-32:25 How to set up a small group for the ultimate win
32:25-37:00 Conclusion and Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:02):
Well, hello there everybody. Welcome to episode five of a hybrid ministry podcast, solo pod today. Um, my cohost Matt is, uh, having a baby at the time of this recording. So next time we talk to him, he's gonna, he's gonna be a dad for the first time. So that's exciting. And, uh, we were scheduled to record. He's having a baby. I was like, yo dude, don't, don't worry about, don't worry about this. Don't worry about podcasting. We'll get to, we'll get to another day. And so sure enough, that's where we are. And so I am, uh, doing this on my own today. Uh, excited to have a quick conversation with you. Uh, but because it was just me had to do a little bit of deviation. So in this episode, we're gonna talk about generation Z a little bit more. I've told you in the past that I am a youth pastor and, uh, just something that I've been thinking about and noticing now for quite some time.

Nick Clason (01:02):
Uh, but this generation, I mean, they are just so different than the generations that have come before us. Uh, even as a millennial myself, I notice so much, uh, variance in who generation Z is what, uh, where some pain points are for, for us as student pastors. Um, and maybe just some opportunities of ways that we can use hybrid ministry to be reaching gen Z. You've heard Matt and I talk about some of the stats from Barna, um, that gen Z prefers it looks for a hybrid model. And so I kinda wanna dig into a little bit more. Um, so there's a, there's a statistic that came to, to me, uh, from, uh, crossroads in Cincinnati. I was at a conference in crossroads, did a study, um, of post COVID generation, Z teenagers under the age of 18. So a lot of the generation Z data that you see is gonna be gen Z students over the age of 18 due to liability reasons and the legality of, you know, pulling data from, uh, from people who have to be old enough.

Nick Clason (02:16):
And so what they were able to do is they have a data team. So they're able to find a way to, uh, talk to their teenagers and their parents get permission from them. Um, and so all these students have been through COVID, uh, it's the most recent up to date info info that you can find on them and they're teenagers. So they're the, the students that are actually in your church, your student ministry, or not yours, but theirs. Um, and, and it probably matches, you know, they're in the Midwest. And so you may have some different, um, insight Intel, but here's the fact of the matter. Um, it, honestly, this information shocked me, not in the fact of like, when I heard it, I was like, wow, that doesn't track, but more like, oh my gosh, yes, this is exactly what I've been thinking, what I've been feeling.

Nick Clason (03:03):
So here's the statistic 68% say that they prefer small gatherings over big parties. Uh, if you dig into that, even just a little bit more, uh, 65% of their attendees said that, and 76% of students that were not attending their church or not coming regularly said that they prefer that. So if you're a student ministry that wants to reach students, which odds are, you are that's most, uh, churches, most student ministries, even those that are not there have been overwhelming majority priority on, um, coming to things that are small gatherings over large parties. And I'm, I'm not a hundred percent sure why we would say that. Um, but I have have a feeling, um, that this generation, um, is ex well, I mean, I don't have a feeling. This is empirical. This is evidence. This generation was experiencing some of the highest rates of anxiety that we've ever seen before in the history of the world.

Nick Clason (04:11):
Um, pre C I heard a statistic that the average teenager was experiencing mental health and anxiety related issues at a higher clip than that of a mental health, um, admitted institutionalized patient from the 1950s. This is pre COVID. This is before the world got locked down. And this is before you were told that if you go near your grandmother, you might kill her. And so that is just an absolutely obviously absolutely terrifying proposition. Uh, so much has changed so much of the world has shifted. And so I think that, you know, I don't know that it's like large parties are a fear factor because of COVID. But I think that just the gosh, the overwhelming, like posture and position of needing to isolate, needing to be alone, I, I have just sensed a gigantic difference from them. Um, kind of coming out of that. And I know a lot of people older, the me, like, you know, gen Z teenagers of what they need, man, they need to interact with each other and relate better.

Nick Clason (05:20):
And like, yeah, all those things are true for sure. Um, but I think what we need to just remember as, as pastors, as church leaders, is that the next wave of people, um, they want to gather together they want community, but it looks different than it did before. When I was growing up as a millennial youth group was like, just cliche, right? Like, Hey, let's get as many kids here as we can. Whoever brings the most friends, gets an Xbox. And if you guys get 200 friends here, I will swallow a goldfish like that was youth ministry. And I mean, gosh, I've used some of those tactics myself. I shaved my head one time cuz we had a certain number of kids that came. That's a very industrial way of thinking. Matt's mentioned that before. And the industrial way of thinking is just this whole kinda like assembly line idea.

Nick Clason (06:19):
How many can we get here? How, how much performance, how much quality can we get the digital generation, which is gen Z and those that are coming behind. Most of us, uh, they are valuing access engagement and ultimately community. They wanna know that they are a real person, that they're an individual that they're not just another number. And so, gosh, I know it sounds so cliche. We've all heard it before. We've even probably said it, but students won't care how much we know until they know how much we care. And while this is the, the fact of the matter with our gen Z students, this is also what we're seeing with our church attenders and church members. And so we need to find a way to create community and put a priority on individualism, on small groups, with these statistics, with these facts coming at us and you know, like maybe gathering everyone together in a gigantic room where you swallow a goldfish for entertainment.

Nick Clason (07:23):
Value is not the win anymore because here's the thing. If we gather everyone in a room and you swallow a goldfish, uh, like how many of those 200 students in that room's story, did you really get to know like, did you really dive in and learn who they are and what's bothering them and the issues that they're facing and the questions that they're asking, because ultimately when we look at the model and method of Jesus, he spent tons of time, like sure, Jesus spoke to 5,000 and he broke the bread. But then he, he spent the majority of the time that we see him throughout the gospels, he spent the majority of that time individually with his disciples. And then he spent even more of it with his 12. And then he invested heavily in the three. And then in John who wrote the gospel of John, he described himself as the disciple that he loved the most.

Nick Clason (08:30):
And so Jesus even did that where he spent more and more time individually with his people that he's trying. So those disciples, Peter, James, John, those that were closest to him, they knew how much Jesus cared and they were a part of something with him. And then when they belonged with Jesus, it became much easier for them to turn the corner on belief. I mean, what if, what if the model that Jesus laid out is what the church should be trying to accomplish? Because that's ultimately what happened. Jesus gives the great commission right before the Ascension up to heaven and he says, Hey, do, as I've done walk, as I've walked, take what I've done and re uh, apply it to the world around you. What if this model that Jesus laid out thousands of years ago is what gen Z is really looking for.

Nick Clason (09:32):
What if, what the church has become with the lights and the bells and the whistles and the haze and the what if they're not for that? Like, I I've heard, uh, I've heard younger people in my church talk about the amount of money that we spend on production value, all in an aim and an effort to get people in the room. And then, and then they say, okay, yeah, that's great. But what are we doing to care for the, the poor people down the street in, in downtown Chicago? And, and what if like all the amount of pressure that we put on ourselves as churches to try and get everyone in the building? What if, what if that is not really what they're looking for? Cause I know it sounds cliche, right? But they don't care how much we know until they know how much we care.

Nick Clason (10:20):
And they're looking for smaller gatherings. Uh, there's a study that Barna did several years ago. Um, and it was well, yeah, several years ago. So 2016, uh, and, and there was a statistic, um, that said 74% of student youth pastors say that teen busyness is the main obstacle to their ministry. And I think the reason being is as he I'll just tell you, anecdotally, as a youth pastor, I, I would feel that in the, the lane or in the sense of like, okay, so, Hey, we have ones in that youth group, you should be here. And then, uh, Susie can't come because Susie has play practice. And max can't come cuz max just made, uh, the football team. And so Susie and max are missing and they're some of you, my core students. And I wish they were there, but they can't be there because they have stuff going on.

Nick Clason (11:17):
Their schedules are an obstacle to me and my ministry. And so, uh, I think most, most of us in ministry, most youth pastors would say that. I mean, I don't know if you've ever been on like the D YM Facebook group or youth pastors only Facebook group and like seen some of those questions. But gosh, those are some of the, those are some of the main points of conversation. All right. So my, my biggest obstacle in my ministry is student business, 74, almost almost three quarters of youth pastors in America that were surveyed said that. Now check this out. This is the thing that's so fascinating to me because I think we've been, we've been banging that drum for years. We've been saying, we're you guys are too busy. You gotta back it down. You gotta come to the thing. You gotta come to our, our event, right?

Nick Clason (12:05):
And this is gen Z. These are these students and they wanna do stuff. They wanna do extracurricular activities. Uh, with that same notion, I wish your teen wasn't so busy with that posture towards parents, check this out. 31% of parents think that their teenagers actually need more to do as opposed to less to do all of us would say back your schedules down, find more margin, find more white space and check this only 11%, 11% of parents think that their child is way too busy and way too overscheduled. So the problem that we as youth pastors feel or face is not the same problem that parents are feeling or facing as they're leading their children. And so what I am proposing, what I am thinking, perhaps student ministry, ministry to gen Z, uh, millennials can look like more in the future is they, you can put less pressure on the one, uh, once a week, individual gathering and instead pour all of your gas, all of your effort on to more relationally charged intimate community based settings, where, you know, the individual, I mean, guys, this is tried and true stuff, right?

Nick Clason (13:21):
Like I, I train and talk to my small group leaders, uh, at nauseam about the importance of knowing their students and knowing them well. And the reality is if one of my small group leaders has 35 students on a roster, they're not doing that. They're not knowing those students individually and they're not knowing them well, but they have a lot of kids on their roster. And as people who've been trained in an industrial way and an industrial line of thinking that, uh, communicates a fair level of success, well, you have 35 kids. Oh my word. That's a lot of people in a small group. Yeah. But how many of those 35 do you know? Well, and do you know, intimately, you know, orange wrote the book a couple years ago called lead small and it's, it's one of the most profound books because I think it's one of the things that all of all youth pastors in America would want to articulate.

Nick Clason (14:19):
And it's so simple, but it's so clear and it's so good. And so I actually use the book lead small as a small group leader's, uh, job description essentially. And so the five principles on it and listen, I'm gonna try and pull this off the top of my head. So if I do it, gimme, gimme kudos, but it's to be present it's to show up, show up, randomly show up predictably, um, and show up like outside of the program time. Uh, so it's it show up or be present it's, uh, create a safe place. It's partnered with parents. It's moved them out. That's four out of five guys. That's pretty dang good. Um, I can't remember the fifth one, and those of you listening on the other and you're screaming at me right now, but listen, this is hard when you don't have a cohost, you don't have your brain, doesn't have room to breathe.

Nick Clason (15:05):
So Colin, Cal, I don't know how you do it every week, but congratulations, you are an absolute magician cuz just talking into a microphone by yourself for hours. That is hard. Now my point in saying all that as, uh, lead small is that it's, it's really quite simple because if you look at it, it goes back to what Jesus did. And so church has looked, um, much more produced and much more glamorized. And I think a lot of that was a product of the industrial age. How can we Polish this and bring a level of quality that is going to produce the highest amount of attenders? That's been our goal. How do we get the most amount of people here in this room? And that's not, that's not been a bad thing. I don't think, but I think it's giving us a lot of quantitative data and not a lot of qualitative data.

Nick Clason (15:56):
We know a lot of people are here, but, but what are their stories? Well, yeah, you gotta get in a small group. Exactly. That's what we're saying. And that's what gen Z's saying. They say we don't care about the big thing. The big show, like you can't outer entertain us. We have TikTok on our phone. There are people swallowing, goldfish all day long on there. What we want is real, what we want is authentic. And so, you know, just one of the things that we've done is, uh, we have actually pulled away in our student ministry and, and decentralized. Um, and what I mean by that is, yeah, we gather together every once in a while, but really the, the win is what happens in the small group type setting. And so just for a little bit of backdrop, a little bit of context in our setting, um, we only meet with our students one time a week.

Nick Clason (16:46):
Uh, there is weekend services and weekend programming, but there's nothing for students with that. So we encourage them to go to go to service with their parents and we encourage them to serve, um, in one of the services. And so then therefore, uh, when we meet we're meeting at an off peak time pre COVID, we were pretty standard. We had Wednesday night for junior high students and Sunday night for high school students. And I think we squarely fell in the demographic of 74% of youth pastors saying they students are way too. Overscheduled way too busy. That's the problem. That's why I can't get anybody here. COVID came around and absolutely, you know, shut us down. We were in Chicago, we just opened up yesterday essentially. And so that's kind of a joke, but not really also. And so anyway, uh, 20, 20 summer we had been doing, um, a show like a YouTube show completely online and it was great and it was really fun, but the problem was, um, we were, we were talking strategy around our show and uh, I remember one of the, one of the youth pastors on our staff said, uh, she said, you know, the only place in the world right now.

Nick Clason (18:00):
So think this is like summer 20, 20. She said the only place in the world right now that students can't get in person is church. And so we did right there, a 180 pivot and instead of strategizing around how to make our show more, whatever, attractional more, whatever we, we said, how do we get students in an in-person moment? Now, keep in mind, this is 20, 20 summer. I've said all this a million times. I know, but I'm just trying to give you the context of it. Because at that point in time, our church multi-site megachurch in Chicagoland area. Sure. We were in the south suburb, so sure. We're about an hour away from the city, all the PR all the, um, I dunno, social media that would come along with us, not like not meeting or meeting, like there's gonna be a lot of negativity if we did.

Nick Clason (18:51):
And so we were still kind of in that world. And so our, our main church, like big church adult church, like they were still not meeting weekly. And so we created, uh, host home based small groups at that time, the state of Illinois was in, I believe it was called phase three of reopening or something like that, three or four. And, um, they, we were the guideline quote unquote was, uh, cuz you know, everything was very quote unquote, but anyway, the guideline was 50 people or less in a gathering, but there was very real chance that we were about to slide back into the, the other phase. So we were in phase three down to phase two or whatever that was, it might have been phase four down to phase three. Doesn't really matter because none of it makes sense and hopefully we never talk about it again.

Nick Clason (19:39):
But um, the, the more strict phase was 10, 10 students or more not students, sorry, people. This is for the state of Illinois. So we're like if we build small groups, um, and roster get rosters up to about 15 cap, it there knowing that typically 50 to 75% of students, uh, attend weekly. So, you know, if you have 15 on a roster, you're probably seeing seven to, to nine of them every week. And so then therefore we are within the window. Even if we get shut down even further, we can still continue to do this. And so we rolled out, um, a handful, like a bunch of digital groups that met on zoom. And then we also rolled out a ton of host homes. A and what we saw was our pre COVID attendance against enrollment jumped from like 32%. So again, this, that model was Wednesday night come, I'm gonna swallow a goldfish.

Nick Clason (20:40):
And then after that, you're gonna get in your small group with your leaders who love you and care about you. And every time a new student shows up a new kid gets dumped onto their roster. And so by the time that the school year comes to an end, that small group, leader's holding a roster of 35 students. And if I were to grab that roster and I say, Hey, who is that kid? And point to a name? There's a chance that they may have no idea cuz that kid may have come a week, that they weren't there and then they never came back. And so they've never actually met this kid, but this kid's sitting on their roster. And as far as like pipelines go and as far as like, uh, pastoral care goes, our strategy built around that is that the small group leader cares for that student.

Nick Clason (21:18):
But the reality is like that small group leader doesn't even know that student's name. And so that was that 32% of attendance. Sure. There may be 35 kids, but the average attendance against the enrollment of the overall small group was 32% pre COVID. We saw that attendance jump right out of the gate after COVID from 32% up to like 76%. And so what we saw was we saw this statistic bear itself out where gen Z's saying, this is what I want. Like I wanna be somewhere where I'm known and even in the face of COVID, I mean, dude, we were doing like full mask. Like you have to wear one, we were enforcing it. Like it was not an optimal way to gather together, but, but students were flocking. And in a lot of ways, I think, you know, the, the juxtaposition or the comparison of the fact that in COVID they're completely locked down and isolated to now we're actually offering some semblance of community and connection.

Nick Clason (22:13):
Um, obviously didn't hurt us, right? If you starve them of something, then eventually they're gonna go, absence makes the heart grow fonder, but that's what we saw. And so that was something we stumbled upon in COVID cuz we were like, oh dang look at this. And so then we just continued to run that model. And, and to this day our student ministry is still built on that. Um, I, this last, uh, spring, I had 15 small groups. I had one online group. I had four groups that met on campus. I had 10 groups that met in homes. And then of those ten four, no, I'm sorry. Five met on another night of the week. And so I had a Thursday group, I had four Sunday groups and then I had 10 Wednesday groups. And so back to the statistic about student pastors saying the biggest challenge to their student ministry is scheduling and parents not really agreeing with that.

Nick Clason (23:10):
Um, I think the fact that what, what we've been able to kind of stumble on as a student ministry is, uh, this, this variety of options as it comes to meeting, we've put so much pressure on the meeting, but what, what did Paul say? Right? I mean, I don't know that he was talking to youth pastors, but he could have been, we says don't esteem one day better than the other, but that's how we treat it with scheduling. Like, well for me to preach and for me to do all these things, like I need to get all the students together on a stage and a Wednesday night and get up in front of 'em and tell 'em about Jesus and like, yeah, that, that is the case in the eighties. But, but now for if you want to communicate as a student pastor, if you wanna communicate as a, as a communicator, you don't need a stage and a microphone to do that.

Nick Clason (23:57):
In fact, you can run this model. Like we're talking about where we have decentralized groups that meet in variety of locations all across the city on variety of nights in a, in a variety of locations, in a variety of environments. And if you record something via video, that same message can be disseminated out to all 15, all 25, all it's an infinitely scalable model. And that's the other piece too. You don't need facility. You don't need more chairs to accommodate more students. What you need is just one more, two more, three more willing host homes. And what I always tell people is now if you have wifi in a couch, you can experience what our church has to offer in student ministry. You no longer have to rely on your schedule to be free. And for your night to, to not have, you know, extracurricular activities and for your parents to drive you from wherever they, they have to drive from to get you to the campus.

Nick Clason (24:56):
And I get it like every context is different. You know, I, like I said, we're in the suburbs of Chicago, we're a big church. And so therefore we have a pretty wide reach. So sometimes we'll reach people from as far as 30, 45, even an hour away on the weekends. Um, and so those people's kids, um, that want to come back to youth group, they then have to drive 30, 45 an hour back into, you know, where our church is so that they can get to student ministry and to, to experience it. But now they can pick something that's maybe 30 minutes from the church in a host home that is, uh, geographically located 30 minutes from the campus. And so then that way you can also begin building things around region. You could even begin building things around school because how much more realistic is it for students to be in small group with other kids that are in their school, as opposed to just kids who say that they go to the same church and they see each other once a week.

Nick Clason (25:58):
And so you're like, wow, wow. Do you, when do you ever stand in front of the students? When do you, when do you ever get to know them? And that is, that has been the tough thing. Um, you've probably heard me say it, but my first day was the first day of COVID. So my first day was the, the initial and original production of our show and our show, what it did was it just, it operated as the anchor, the springboard for all of our small groups. It shifted from something that we did in COVID as a, um, youth, youth ministry program replacement to then more, a, um, discussion starter for small groups. And so it's, it's gone on this gigantic evolution now over the last two plus years, but what we're realizing the win is the win is what happens in the rooms. The win is what's happening between the students, between them and their leaders.

Nick Clason (26:47):
And really what we're just aiming to provide is good, consistent Bible teaching. Um, and we're doing that primarily and mostly through video, we are sitting down, we're recording ourselves, teaching we're recording ourselves, um, you know, presenting, uh, thought from the Bible and then the groups have what they need to, uh, to, to discuss it. And so what I wanna actually do real fast, I just wanna pull up, um, like, Hey, here's what we're doing this, uh, this fall. And so now two and a half years later, our most recent iteration of small groups, um, and, and what we're doing in each of the rooms with each of the themes. And so, um, what we do is we do like a campus night launch. Um, and then after that they have 10 weeks of small groups and that's where this, I think the biggest piece in this is the, uh, ability to vary up the, the, the days and the weeks and the nights of meeting.

Nick Clason (27:53):
And so I, uh, at my campus, I'm able to offer Sunday night meetings, Wednesday night meetings, Thursday night meetings. And that's really, I think like the, where the rubber meets the road on, on everything that makes it really helpful and beneficial. So, um, in addition to like providing teaching, we try to provide like a theme or some sort of activity for every group to do. And so this is where hybrid can really, really come into play. So the first night of small group, we're just doing sweet or sour and what our like video segment is gonna be is we're just gonna say, Hey, listen, like one great practice to do is you're getting to know each other. And as you're getting to get in the rhythm of small group messages, talk about the sweetest part of your week and the most sour part of your week.

Nick Clason (28:38):
And maybe to start that week, we're gonna just talk about, Hey, this was the sweetest part of my summer, and this was the most sour part of my summer. Um, then the week after that, we're gonna play a little game called yay or nay. And our thought behind that is we're going to do, um, like eight or 10 things that we just say like, Hey, um, cookies. And then let the, the students hold up a little paddle that says, yay, like a green sign or flip it over to a red sign that says, nay. And then we're gonna say you have 30 seconds to decide answer, and then defend your answer. And so we're hoping it kind of creates a little bit of banter between them and the students. And what we'll do is we'll just have like a 32nd timer. And then when that's over a little ding and they'll move on the next one.

Nick Clason (29:21):
And so it goes from cookies to pineapple and pizza, yay, or nay boom, 30 seconds. And then a little countdown video thing. Week three is gonna be board game nights, pretty self explanatory, bring a board game, play it together. Week number four is gonna be a service project. And what we're actually doing is we are, um, doing operation Christmas child. So we are gonna give all of our groups like 10 shoe boxes, and we're gonna challenge them to fill 10. And we're gonna do a competition to see who can fill the most amount of shoe boxes. And so then we're going to let them literally just physically do a packing party in their small groups, wherever they meet on campus in host homes. And then if they're online, we'll figure so up for that. Um, we're gonna then do, after that, we're gonna do an escape room and that's gonna operate as like an invite night.

Nick Clason (30:05):
And so we're gonna give 'em a puzzle, um, and some things and some codes to try and figure out, and we're gonna let them work on that together and hopefully bring a friend to it. And then we're gonna use like, uh, our YouTube channel or whatever with just, uh, countdown and maybe some ominous music. And so they have to get this puzzle solved within 45 minutes. And while the clock is going, there'll be little hints. And, um, voiceover things kind of popped in there by me or one of our other team members to just encourage them as they go the next week is gonna be karaoke night. So we're just gonna pull together some, some songs and into our YouTube playlist and they can just sing some karaoke together, have fun as a small group the next week is around Halloween time. So that's gonna be, uh, some Halloween house parties.

Nick Clason (30:50):
We're gonna give them, uh, an option of a couple of things that they can do, but really that's just, Hey, throw a party, get some candy, you know, do Halloween stuff. Um, then the week after that we're gonna play, would you rather, it's gonna feel very much like yay or nay instead of yay or nay like iPhones and pineapple and pizza. Now it's gonna be like, would you rather it's like, would you rather, uh, this is my favorite, would you rather question, would you rather eat ice cream flavored poop or poop flavored ice cream? Yeah, let me know, let me know the comments. We wanna know hybrid ministry.xyz or on Twitter at hybrid ministry. Come find us and let us know which of your would you rather it would be, uh, then we're gonna play fall feud, fall family feud. We're gonna, uh, send out a, a text.

Nick Clason (31:32):
Some of our students gather some survey data on some fall or like autumn related questions and then get that same data and then let them play based on their answers that they gave. And then finally, the last week of small group is, uh, show and tell donut edition, bring your favorite donut and bring a second one to share with someone else. And that's just an excuse to have a giant donut party as a celebration of the last week of small groups, then that leads us right up to Thanksgiving in the scope of our calendar. We'll come back for a couple weeks after Thanksgiving, do a couple Christmas related events and it'll feel very Christmas party esque, and then we break for Christmas. And so that's kind of how we use this idea of decentralized, um, host home model, small groups. And that's how we use technology to create for our students a hybrid experience.

Nick Clason (32:25):
And so I'm still the youth pastor. I still preach and teach, but I do view video. Um, and my talking head or my teaching content experiences get distributed to 15 groups at my campus, probably another 15 groups at our other couple campuses. And so that helps, that helps me be in 30 something places at any given time throughout the week. And so that's, that's one of the ways that we're utilizing and using hybrid ministry and hopefully doing something that is gen Z centric and gen Z forward thinking because the game back to the whole thing, they don't know, they don't care how much we know until they know how much we care. And that's what we're attempting to do is we're attempting to give them a safe place, the lead small principle, and it comes all the way back from Jesus of Nazareth who ultimately said to us, Hey, this is the great commission.

Nick Clason (33:27):
Go make disciples of all nations, teaching them everything. I've commanded. You baptizing them name the father, son, holy spirit. And he promises us as presence. I'll be with you even always to the very end of the age. That's what the church is built on church. Isn't built on a show church isn't built on a Sunday morning experience. Church is built on the people of God coming together, Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, continuing to, to meet together, to encourage one another, to spur one another on, do not give up meeting together. The writer of Hebrew says that is the, that's the core, the core tenant of the church. And for a lot of years, the only way to do that was a once a week gathering on Sundays in between farming. But we don't live in that, that agricultural world anymore. We're in a digital age. And so our students they're digital.

Nick Clason (34:22):
They, they, they think digital first. And so before, you know, it generation Z is gonna make up the majority of the attenders in your church, but you're already probably feeling some of the effects of it. And if you're not a youth pastor, like I am, it may not feel as, as imminent. Um, but they are on their way and they are on the horizon. And I know for me, they are the primary students that I am tasked with reaching right now. And so I don't have a choice if you're a pastor of older adults and millennials and gen Xers, then you may feel like this is a little further off for you and you might be right. Um, but the reality is that the oldest generation Z, they are starting to graduate from college and they're looking to enter the church. And they're saying some of these same things, probably around the same percentage that they prefer small gatherings over big parties.

Nick Clason (35:20):
So how can you use hybrid versions of ministry to reach these people and to even disciple them and even reinforce and galvanize the community around them? Well, that's it guys, that's it for the solo pod, uh, make sure you reach out to Matt, let him know that you are happy for him, that you're excited for him that he's gonna have a baby. Um, I'm gonna text him right now and figure out if they had the baby or not. They were in the hospital last night, so we'll have to see, but anyway, Hey, check us out. Online hybrid ministry dot X, Y, Z, we're on Twitter at hybrid ministry. If you find this helpful a rating or a review would be incredibly generous and incredibly helpful to us, it helps us rank higher in the podcast standings. And we have show notes. I don't know if you know this, but you can go to our, uh, hybrid ministry.xyz website. And we do an offer you a full transcript of everything that we say. And then anything that we talk about, uh, we will link to that in our show notes. So you can have access to some of those downloads for free, just go grab 'em. Um, but give us a shout. Give us a rating. Give us a review. Love to get to know you guys a little bit more. Appreciate you being a part of this journey with us. And until next time, we'll see you.

Follow along on twitter - twitter.com/hybridministry

Or find full transcripts and show notes at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TIMECODES
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:46 Why Hybrid Ministry Matters
00:02:34 Trends of Digital Ministry
00:04:21 Ministry post Pandemic

TRANSCRIPT
Matthew Johnson (00:00):
Plan. I'll just play off of you.

Nick Clason (00:02):
Oh, I love there. All right. You're you ready to rock and roll?

Matthew Johnson (00:08):
Yes, sir. Are you in a closet?

Nick Clason (00:09):
Yeah, bro.

Matthew Johnson (00:11):
I love it.

Nick Clason (00:12):
This is, uh, the nursery closet.

Matthew Johnson (00:14):
Love it.

Nick Clason (00:15):
I haven't got a little blanky over here.

Matthew Johnson (00:18):
I love it.

Nick Clason (00:21):
All right. You ready to rock and roll?

Matthew Johnson (00:23):
Ready?

Nick Clason (00:24):
Okay. And 3, 2, 1. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the first ever episode of hybrid ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clayson. And along with me is my friend. And co-host Matthew Johnson. How you doing Matt?

Matthew Johnson (00:44):
Doing all right, Nick. How are you doing

Nick Clason (00:46):
Good. Good. Let's uh, let's talk a little bit about what this is and why we're, why we're so passionate about it. So Matt, tell us a little bit, like, who are you? What's your experience and why is this something that you're, you're passionate about?

Matthew Johnson (01:01):
Yeah, I love it. Um, so my name is Matt Johnson. I have been in marketing for the greater part of my adult career. Uh, worked in the ministry world for six years of that. Now, um, started out in video multimedia production and then moved my way up into a marketing manager role. And since then I've, uh, done marketing management market and a marketing director role, uh, for big churches and parachurch organizations with, uh, focus on, uh, you know, just helping out youth ministry was my original goal at dare to share ministries. And then, uh, now I'm at the churchwide role at our current church, so

Nick Clason (01:45):
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm a youth pastor. Um, and right now I work at same church. And so, um, I just, I'm passionate about this cuz I, as someone who's trying to reach gen Z, you know, I see, I see the trends shifting, um, and I wanna make sure that the church stays on top of it, you know, and I wanna make sure that they are doing everything they can to continue to reach the next generation, I guess, you know, for me, like I'm seeing a lot of teenagers, they are interested in spiritual things, um, and interested in God, but in a lot of ways, I don't think they're necessarily interested in the church. And so I want to make sure that we're doing everything we can, you know, to be the most, the most effective that we can be. Um, is that like, would you say you see similar things, similar trends with that as it pertains to digital and, and like a hybrid type of ministry?

Matthew Johnson (02:43):
Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, the countless studies that you can go on a Barna and Gallup and read all about what's going on with gen Z and, um, being in the trenches, you, and I know the need that is there for these, uh, for this generation. And you know, we're not even talking about generation alpha yet and they'll be, your kids are gonna be generation alpha. My kids generation alpha. We have no idea where we're gonna be headed with them. So, um, and I don't think enough people are kind of talking about how we can reach gens Z. We're more talking about the problems that gen Z is facing, which is great. The problems can help us, you know, frame what's about gen Z, but we know that these students have a spiritual need. They are curious, they're asking some of the deepest questions over here and, uh, we just need to be talking to 'em. So it's very PA uh, very big passion of mine to help other youth leaders be able to, um, reach their students. And also, uh, just a passion in general for gen Z also has like, you know, the coolest dances and the kind of the funniest people around so

Nick Clason (03:54):
Well, and I think like, I think for us in church, like we've done it, done it a certain way for so long. And I just think it's, it's gonna look different, you know, and we have to be willing to, um, adapt to some new practices. Um, and it's terrifying. Change is terrifying for people, you know? So we, that, that's what this is. Um, and the reason for the name hybrid, right, is I think in the pandemic, a lot of people, obviously not think I know a lot of people shifted to digital. Um, and now post pandemic, a lot of people are shifting back to physical and I feel like it's very binary thinking like it has to be one or the other, I think the way you and I see it is that it's, it's not one or the other. It's both. Right. And that's why I like the, the name hybrid. So we wanna explore best practices of online, digital marketing, um, and look at some gen Z stuff. And, uh, listen, I don't think either one of us would claim to be experts or that we have the, all the answers, but we just think that this is an important conversation. So we wanna have it and hope that there's other people out there that are interested in that as well.

Matthew Johnson (05:06):
Yep. I completely agree. And, uh, I'm excited to kind of see where this can take us. So

Nick Clason (05:12):
Of course. All right, well, that's it for the pilot? Um, just a quick little intro and, uh, we'll see for episode one, bye, everybody.