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Show Notes & Transcripts: http://www.hybridministry.xyz/046
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SHOWNOTES
THE ARTICLE BEING READ & REFERENCED:
https://youthministry360.com/blogs/all/how-to-be-present-with-your-social-media-presence

MY STUDENT SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.tiktok.com/@crosscreekchurch?lang=en

10 FREE SPIRITUAL PRACTICE TIKTOKS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4n40o5080lblih/Spiritual%20Practice%20TikToks%20-%20Nick%20Clason%20and%20Bailey%20Fore.zip?dl=0

TIMECODES
00:00-02:18 Intro
02:18-07:24 How to be Present with your Social Media Presence
07:24-12:19 How do we Show Up Where our People are Spending their Time?
12:19-12:58 Don't post Announcements on Social Media
12:58-14:01 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hey there everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always, am your host, Nick Clason. Thrilled to be here again with you. And just let me let you know little bit of a shorter podcast today I'm actually gonna do something a little different, a little unique. I recently wrote an article for YM Short for Youth Ministry 360, um, titled How to Be Present With Your Social Media Presence. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop the link to that here in the show notes, but I'm actually just gonna read it for you, um, and also give you some author commentary as I, uh, am reading it through. So expect like a 10, 12 something minute pod. You probably already saw that. If you already downloaded this, if you're on YouTube, welcome in. Glad to have you. Excited to be with you.

Nick Clason (00:48):
And here's why. Honestly, um, this may release the week before, week after, not sure yet in the order. I'm doing a little bit of some batch pre-recording because my family and I are getting ready to go to Disney and I'm looking to just completely unplug from work, from this, from podcast side hustles, all the things I'm doing. Uh, so excited about unplugging, excited about getting ready to send and go and be with my family in Disney. Um, that being said, I, the, the craziest thing about this article is I wrote it, I can't even remember how long in advance, and then it dropped months later. Like I, I wrote it, I know when I lived in Chicago and it dropped just a couple weeks ago now when I'm living here in Dallas. And so my life has changed immensely. And when I heard it, there were elements of it that I was like, oh, that's interesting.

Nick Clason (01:34):
Oh, I don't know if I would've said it that way. And then there are other things I was like, yeah, I definitely still agree with that, you know, so I thought it'd be fun to bring to you all because I wrote it before, I think I wrote it before we even had a podcast going. So these thoughts, like, just think about that. If you've been on this journey with me listening to, to me in your ear ball holes for a while, think about this. These, these thoughts that have been ruminating inside of me and brewing inside of me. Uh, anyway, all that to be said, show notes, hybridministry.xyz. Subscribe to us on YouTube, follow me on TikTok Act place. And Nick also five star review if you would be so inclined. And without any further ado, let's dive into how to be present with your social media presence.

Nick Clason (02:19):
All right, here we go. How to be present with your social media presence. Read by the author himself, Nick Clayson. Here we go. Incarnational ministry. Did I lose anybody yet? Now before you go dust off your lexicon, you probably already know and embrace this as a characteristic in your life and in your ministry, right? Here's the thing. And I said this cuz I knew that, that pastors, youth pastors, who's ever gonna be reading it, primarily, this is a youth pastor. This isn't aside by the way, in case you didn't know primarily youth pastors reading this. They embrace and embody this, this characteristic, this idea of incarnation ministry just may not use it. You know, super frequently in our vocabulary anyway, in the gospels, we see Jesus going to be with his people that he encounters. So if our ministries are going to be a mirror of Christ's incarnation life and incarnation ministry, we are required to go and be with the people that we're ministering to.

Nick Clason (03:16):
And if you and I were youth pastors in the nineties, well we'd probably be found at the mall sitting next to a Chinese restaurant that's handing out free samples of their bourbon chicken and browsing hot topic on our way out the store. You know, you remember, however, if your towns anything like mine, well, the mall I just described as a of it, former of its former self. So where are all the teenagers hanging out? According to some statistics, 45% of Generation Z report that they're online, as they describe it as almost constantly, 45%, 24% of teams report feelings of discomfort if they go more than just one hour without access to the internet. And finally, on average, generation Z allocates two hours and 55 minutes per day on average to social media. So let's just be honest for a minute. The mall has gone to there, and let's be honest and frank, our pockets, it lives on our phones and the students that we're trying to reach and spend their time, they're online.

Nick Clason (04:26):
Regardless of your opinion of whether or not you believe that this amount of screen time is healthy, advantageous, it's probably not. It is where our students are spending the majority of their time. Let's pause for a minute. Um, a quick aside from this, I was in a recent Barna CoLab group on how to disciple Gen Z and their, they're sharing some recent findings, super interesting, super fascinating stuff. One of the things that they shared, um, actually it was a guy that they interviewed from a church and he said, uh, if Generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then generation alpha right behind them. By the way, if you're youth pastor, that is fifth and sixth, seventh, eighth grade, maybe not as high as seventh and eighth grade, but definitely like sixth, fifth, and on down. So they are the youth ministry of the future.

Nick Clason (05:13):
So if generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then that means that generation Alpha is the first digitally dependent generation. Crazy to think about. And so a lot of times, let's be honest with our generational age gap and difference, even as I'm a millennial, even as some fellow millennials, Xers, boomers on up, what is our constant, like, what are we constantly asking generation Z and younger to do? We're asking them to get rid of their phones. We're asking them to disconnect and unplug from technology. And while I think that there's advantages to that and it's advantageous for people to learn the disciplines of being able to break away, find some silence, find some solace and solitude, um, away from social media culture, away from online culture, I think all of that is well and good. I just think that you have a generation that is dependent on it.

Nick Clason (06:06):
It is literally their alarm clock. It's their calendar, it's their actual phone. It's where they communicate with all their friends, whether it be text message, Snapchat, be real, but it's, it's their their map, it's their navigation system. It's the way that they check their grades. It's how they pay for their school lunches. Like it's everything. It's not like, I'll give you this example. I am recording this podcast when I'm recording it in preparation for my trip to Disney World. Everything at Disney World is now online. It's in the my Disney Experience app Genie Plus, which is the replacement of Fast Passes, lightning Lanes, um, checking into my resort, making mobile food orders, like everything is on my phone. And you are at an amusement park with your family trying to unplug, trying to disconnect Bif, do you have to be on your phone? And there are people who are like, I'm done.

Nick Clason (06:56):
I'm not gonna do that. And that's fine. But the reality is we are moving more and more towards that than we are away from that. And so if this generation is dependent upon it, what we have to do is stop villainizing the phone and we have to start looking at it as an opportunity to teach them and disciple them through how to have faith with a phone through that lens. And I think that's my heart in this article, and that's what's coming through. Let's read the next section. So here's a question for you. If in the nineties you would've gone hung out at the mall to connect with students and teenagers, how in 2023, which is one of the articles written, how in 2023 are you showing up where your students are? See, I'm not necessarily proposing that the digital church replaces the in-person experience hybrid far from it.

Nick Clason (07:47):
But if your students go home after school and spend almost three hours on their phones, which is what the statistics told us, then couldn't you make an impact with your students or your people online? All right, so here's some ideas how to do that. If you've been listening to this podcast any length of time you've heard it, I'm gonna say it in idea and then I'm gonna riff on it. So I'm gonna say idea number one, idea number two, so that you're clear, okay, idea number one, share a devotional thought. Guys, you can hold your phone out in front of you and you can give either a recap of, or you can give a completely new and different from, not different cuz come, gonna come from the Bible, hopefully, but different from your sermon or from the lesson that week or whatever the case might be.

Nick Clason (08:29):
You can give just a devotional thought, boom. Hey guys wanna give you quick encouragement, 60 seconds or less. People don't want longer than that. Anyway, you can do a deep dive into an encouraging, um, or challenging passage of scripture. Again, 60 seconds or less. I, I think maybe it was Mark Twain, I'm not sure, but it was him who said, Hey, I wanted to write a short letter but I didn't have time. So I wrote a long letter. See, it takes more time to make something quick, concise, and short. Idea number three, have fun, create fun and funny posts. Hey, if you're not following us on TikTok on our student ministry, I would encourage you to, you can go check it out. We are Cross Creek students. Um, hopefully now we are at Cross Creek students. If not, I may still have it set as at Cross Creek Church cuz TikTok won't let me switch my name over to Cross Creek students, but that's ultimately the goal.

Nick Clason (09:18):
I've had a hard time switching it over. But we do fun and funny posts. I literally, right as I was walking into this spare bedroom of my house to record this podcast, I was literally posting a video of a girl drinking ranch dressing flavored soda and trying to guess the flavor of it. Like it's just fun. And honestly, what I do is I toss out the invite on a youth ministry night. Hey, you wanna be on TikTok tonight? Sure. They all come into the room. I have six bottles of soda with weird flavors. I have a game cud up on my laptop. And another thing with the filter on on TikTok, it gets me like 20 pieces of video content that I just store, bank and pull back out later when I need it in my calendar. Idea number four, film answers to theological questions, right?

Nick Clason (10:02):
People are inspired by answers to deep things that maybe you don't wanna put online, but things that students are dealing with. Like, why do bad things happen? How do I develop a habit? Why, how do I spend time with God even if I don't want to? Why would I go on obeying him and living a life of sinlessness or the goal of that if he's always just gonna forgive my sins? Anyway? You talk about that every week. What's the point of it? What does God think about gay people? Does God require me to be a democrat? Does God require me to be a Republican? What would Jesus think of our current political landscape? You get the idea. Idea number five, encourage spiritual practices and disciplines. I don't know if it's gonna get accepted or if it's out yet, but I recently submitted, if it is, I'll drop a link to it in the show notes.

Nick Clason (10:48):
I recently submitted 10 TikTok videos. Actually, you know what I'm gonna do? It's on ym, um, or I submitted it to d y m I don't know if they took it or not. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop a link, uh, to that resource, the Dropbox resource in the show notes here, completely free charge. Just go grab it and use it. It's, uh, memorize scripture with me. Practice meditation, sit in silence, have a praise break, all kinds of different things. 10 different spiritual practices that that students or people or adults can use. It's not branded. So you can use it. Just download it and post it wherever you, uh, manage social media free for you. Uh, let's see. Are we on six idea number six, you can do recap posts or videos. Just take, literally you only need 3, 4, 5 seconds worth of of videos and you get like 10 of those real fast at the beginning of the night, um, or during your program.

Nick Clason (11:40):
And then you just put 'em into TikTok. Auto cut. Boom. You got a less than 22nd recap video. Phenomenal way to do that. Idea number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, less idea Number seven, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Figure out how to do that on social, whether it's static graphics, whether it's motion graphics, whether it's you talking graphics, whether it's voiceovers, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Finally, you can quiz students on their Bible knowledge. Uh, one of my favorite ways to do this is on the Instagram story editor with the story sticker, uh, uh, multiple choice story sticker. You can put it in there and you can ask them bible questions and test their Bible knowledge. Super fun way to go about doing that. Those are just some ideas to name a few. I don't know your context, but here's one thing that I do know, we're back to the article, is that I want you to notice that not one single idea that I mentioned above was an advertisement for an event.

Nick Clason (12:32):
We've gone into this, if you've listened to me for a while, you've heard this before. But what if we could use social media to encourage students to actually take the next step in their faith to engage with you or with your ministry, to challenge them to deeper more meaningful ways and a more meaningful walk with Jesus. It's not just another communication platform, which is what we often default social media into being. It's a means to help accomplish a more incarnation form of ministry. So that's it, that's the article. Love to know how you are using social media in your ministry context for more than just announcements to encourage people in their faith to show up where they are. But the bottom line is we are rooting for you. We are cheering you on. So glad you're in here. Hey, listen, if you didn't know this, 2023 is the year of short form video content, vertical video, short form content, less than 60 seconds. If you're like, man, I don't even know how to get this word out there, we got you right here. Link the description. If you're watching on YouTube or go grab our 100% completely free e-book titled, have I already ruined my Church's TikTok account? No. But this book will help teach you how to post one from start to finish all the way through doing it all on the phone in your pocket. So we're here for you, rooting you on. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being a loyal listener. And as always, we never forget.

SHOWNOTES
YM360
http://www.ym360.com
MINISTRY TO PARENTS
https://ministrytoparents.com/
MY YOUTH MIN
https://myyouthmin.com/
EPISODE 016 ON HOW THE IPHONE CHANGED THINGS WITH DERRY PRENKERT
https://merry-swamp-3547.fireside.fm/016

TIMECODES
00:00-02:49 Intro
02:49-05:55 Kerry's Intro and Experience
05:55-09:12 What it's like no longer being in the trenches of ministry
09:12-13:44 What was life in ministry like before the cell phone and after?
13:44-16:22 Is technology what created FOMO?
16:22-21:00 What is contact work?
21:00-32:58 Can we use technology to our advantage in ministry efforts?
32:58-34:27 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Hey, what is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, episode 19. We've been doing 19 of these. I can't freaking believe it in your catcher. It might be 20, because we posted as Double Zero pilot. I kind of hate when people do that, and then I, I went and did it. So, anyway, uh, as always, I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be with you. And today you're in for a treat because number one, I'm not just gonna ramble in your ear holes the entire time, like I have been for the last several episodes, but two, I'm bringing on one of my really good friends. His name is Kerry Ray. He is the director of editing and publications right now at YM 360, which is, YM Youth Min, right? Youth Ministry 360. And he has 30 years of church ministry experience, particularly in the student ministry and youth ministry space.

Nick Clason (00:58):
So, let me caveat all of that to say this is a ministry podcast, not specific in particular to youth ministry. However, that being said, um, you know that I am a 12 year youth ministry veteran, and so a lot of my connections and conversations come in the youth ministry space. And so, um, I just will caveat all this to say that today is going to be a very youth ministry centric conversation. Um, but all of it is going to be couched sort of in, uh, digital, right? And, and so what Kerry is gonna be talking about, um, and what I did is I, we had an interview and it went really well, and it went really long. And so I decided, I think I'm actually gonna bite, uh, split this up into two more bite size pieces. And so, episode one is gonna come out this week, episode two, or part two of this, I should say, is gonna drop on Thanksgiving Day, so you can enjoy it on the way to your, um, grandmother's house over the river and through the woods.

Nick Clason (01:59):
So in this first part in particular, he's gonna talk a little bit about his experience, um, what he's seen and how he's seen digital play a role in that. And then he talks about, um, a thing that I first learned from him, but he says he's still primarily from young Life called contact work, right? And if you've been around this podcast at all, you've known, we talked about showing up where they are, um, which is what Jesus did, honestly, right? He, he showed up where we were, he put on skin, he became human. And so that's what he talks about, and he kind of gives the basis for it and why it's important. Um, and so that's gonna be today. Um, so hopefully you enjoy it. And so, without any further ado, we're gonna get started. And you'll notice just how well I am as a host when we plan this thing, when you hear how we get started. So here we go. 3, 2, 1. Check it out. Hey,

Kerry Ray (02:50):
Is whoa gonna go first on,

Nick Clason (02:53):
Man? Come on. Doesn't even listen to instructions.

Kerry Ray (02:57):
I did. I thought you said, I'll do a thing later. And then you go ahead and introduce

Nick Clason (03:02):
Yourself. I'm keeping all this in. This is Kerry, everybody. Kerry, introduce yourself to the tens and tens of listeners that I have.

Kerry Ray (03:10):
Hey, tens of listeners. My name is Kerry Ray. I am the director of publishing for Y M 360 in Birmingham, Alabama. Uh, YM 360 Youth Ministry 360. Uh, before that, uh, this is my first year actually as a director of publishing, whatever that means. Uh, I did, uh, before that, I did, uh, right about three decades in the student ministry seat, um, in multiple denominations of churches, in churches, multiple states, uh, different sizes, churches, different size, not sizes, different size churches, um, multisites single sites, uh, single sites that wanted to be multisite, uh, . I've been, I've been around the block and, and seen a lot of things, man. Um, but yeah, I've been in the youth ministry for right at 30 years. And, um, this was my first, actually at the time of this recording, this was my, this last Easter was my first Easter, uh, in, in here in 2022, was my first Easter in 30 years, not to be on staff at a church.

Kerry Ray (04:15):
So it was quite the different thing to sit in there as a regular person who could see all the things going wrong, but uh, was not responsible for, for fixing any of them. Um, and so it was great. It was, it was really great. Um, it's weird now on Saturday nights after, you know, you get in a routine for 30 years. Uh, Saturday nights are kind of a weird thing because you go to church on Sunday mornings, but you're not going to work, you know, to do all the things. Um, so, and you go with a family on, on a Sunday morning, it's whole thing. Just a different world, man. So I've, uh, like I said, I've been, I got to wife 360 in October of 2022, um, and started a, a new thing. We, we work in, uh, Y 360, if you don't know, we're, we're part, um, publishing.

Kerry Ray (05:06):
And, uh, we create content for student ministries, youth ministries, all over the world to use. Um, and we also do camps. We have a, a generate by Y 360, uh, which does camp all across different locations. We had this last summer, summer of 2022. We, I believe we were in 20, 23 or 24 locations, um, running camps, 20. We had three different teams spread out all over. Uh, so it was great. My, my section of that, we create all of the, uh, written material, all the devotional material, all of the, um, all the written material for camps. Um, so yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's very different. And then I get to, uh, coach student ministries, youth pastors, all across the place. Um, I've been doing that for around seven years, so, yeah. Nice. Yeah. Lot of fun. Lot of fun.

Nick Clason (05:59):
So let me ask you this, just, this isn't one of the questions I sent you. I'm already going off script, but, uh, do you enjoy Saturday nights and Sunday mornings not being responsible for stuff, or is there like an element of you that misses it at all?

Kerry Ray (06:15):
Oh, absolutely. I think anytime you do something for a significant amount of your life, um, there's a part of you that missed that, um, that misses, um, you know, just being around and, and, and knowing all the faces and knowing who's where. And, um, yeah, there's just part of it that you kind of miss a little bit of it. There's some part, and maybe this will make sense for some of you listening who've done anything for a significant amount of time, there's parts that you miss that you don't know why you miss, or you don't even know what you miss. You just say something's weird and off and just seems a little different. Um, yeah. But yeah, there, there's pieces and parts. There's definitely pieces and parts that I don't miss.

Kerry Ray (06:56):
You know, I don't miss, you know, being gone all day on a Sunday. Um, I don't miss, um, I the whole getting to be a part like you go as a family and do stuff with as a family, uh, that's really brand new. Yeah. Um, and, and it's, it's been great. My, my kids, I, my wife and I have two kids. We have an eight year old and a 14 just turned 14 a couple days ago. And so this is such a significant time in both of their lives mm-hmm. that it is great to be, you know, just a dad and not a staff member. Um, and to get, to get to sit in, I'll tell you, you know, a little bit of a confession. It's also difficult. Um, we're at a smaller church now, and, um, having been in large church ministry for so long, um, now that my daughter is participating in ministry, and, you know, that ministry is, you know, trying to figure itself out and mm-hmm. and, and go through all the, you know, all the growing pains of, of a growing ministry. And I'm sitting on the sidelines and thinking, gosh, , that's awkward. I can help that, but I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna white knight, you know, come in when my, on my high horse and, and quote unquote fix it for them. Especially with,

Nick Clason (08:16):
You're fixing it as the YM 360 guy. Are you fixing it as Madison dad, as dad? Are you fixing it as a church volunteer? Like, what, yeah. What's

Kerry Ray (08:26):
Your role, right? Or are you fixing as the guy that quote unquote knows it all right. So, you know, you don't, you don't wanna be that guy. Um, so yeah, it's, it's just been, it's been weird. That's, that's kind of the honest thing is to have done a thing, and I think this is true at anything, not just ministry, but having, you know, if you were, if you were a cabinet maker and you walked in and people were, you know, fumbling around with a hammer trying to build a cabinet, and you're just biting your, you know, biting your closed fist, going, oh, no, that's not how you, you do it . Um, so it, it's that, I mean, and not saying that they're not doing a great job. Um, they are, they're doing well in figuring it out. They're just, you know, figuring it out. Um, and they're going through some, some growing pain in that process. So yeah, that's, that's what we're doing as a family right

Nick Clason (09:13):
Now. So I'm, I'm curious, Kerry, like two or three episodes ago, I'll link it, you know, in the show notes, but I had, uh, my friend d Pinker on, and we talked about, um, how he, he has a similar longevity track record that you do, and he talked about how the invention of the iPhone was a pretty monumental, like, milestone marker for him in youth ministry. Like he kinda remembers ministry before the invention, um, and widespread use of the iPhone, and then post the invention and widespread use of the iPhone. Do you have, would you say you have a similar, um, experience with that? Like, did you, did you notice that being a pretty big milestone thing in student ministry and in your career noticing how students interacted? Did that change things? Did you, um, have to program or think about things differently because of technology and it's, you know, interwoven into the culture?

Kerry Ray (10:11):
Um, honestly, I, I think the iPhone changed not programming so much as it changed, um, advertising. And I know that's a big no-no word. You know, in the church world, you're not supposed to see the things you're doing as a quote unquote product or something you are promoting. Um, but you are, you're, you're promoting a thing, um, come be a part of this, whether it's a camp, a Wednesday night, a Sunday morning, you are trying to tell people this is a thing we have, um, otherwise you're sitting there by yourself. Um, and so I think it changed, I think it changed dramatically how we engaged with, with students. Hmm. , um, I don't think so much at all. It, it really changed programming. Um, but it definitely changed the way we engaged. It definitely changed, um, the level of intentionality that you had to put behind, uh, promotion and how you promoted and how you celebrated.

Kerry Ray (11:15):
Uh, it also gave you kind of an open door, you know, whether you want it to be or not. A lot of youth ministry is word of mouth. Yeah. Um, I always used to kinda call it the skating rink effect when I was a kid. You know, the skating rink was, was a thing. , sadly, that'll show you my age. The skating rink was a thing, and we didn't, in middle school specifically, you didn't know why it was a thing. Yeah. You just knew that's where everybody was. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, but it was word of mouth, you know? It was, it wasn't the, the skating rink when I grew up, the skating, it was called fun time, skate land. Uh, it wasn't that fun time. Skateland had this giant marketing, you know, this this monumental system or this, this thing that they were doing. They were like, come to fun time.

Kerry Ray (12:01):
It was just, it was word of mouth. And the middle school, you know, that that's where everybody was going on on a Friday night. They were going to fun time. And you talked about it in the hallways, and people do, and I think in cinema ministry, whether we want it to be or not, it, it's always been a word of mouth. You know, I'm, you know, why do, why do so many kids show up to this one event, this all nighter that you do? Well, because the word got out that these people are going and the other people wanna go. And then it snowballs into this thing. Um, and I think the word of mouth became digital. Word of mouth. Um, and you could, you could digitally have a megaphone to, to broadcast that thing versus just relying on word of mouth. Yeah. Um, and so that changed the game.

Kerry Ray (12:47):
So it changed. Um, the only thing I would say in programming, uh, uh, that it would change was that you had to be, or you started to be a little more intentional about recording the things that you were doing mm-hmm. and putting them out there for people to see later. Yeah. Uh, and to advertise with. Um, that's probably the only way it really changed. And I would say it changed programming. It would just, Hey, we want to capture certain things. And so we would talk about, as a team, uh, what are the things we wanna maybe capture tonight and, and broadcast so that people can see it and try to leverage the fomo, you know, the, the, that FOMO piece mm-hmm. is, is a real deal, the invention of the iPhone, Instagram, now TikTok, um, even, even be, you know, be real. It is that FOMO piece of what's happening in the moment. Who's doing what, Ooh, I wanna be a part of that. Mm-hmm. , that's what changed. I think that's what changed.

Nick Clason (13:45):
So would you say before that, that fomo for someone my age, who's only done ministry in an iPhone generation, is fomo a recent phenomenon since the invention of technology and things like that? Or was that always a part of it? Now you just can see it with your own eyes that you Oh, you're right now missing out.

Kerry Ray (14:07):
Yeah. No, FOMO has always existed. Um, it wasn't called that, but you know, there was always that, you know, nobody wants to be left out. Everybody wants to be, um, they did say it for hundreds, hundreds of years. They've been saying for years, you know, that, um, when you walk into a building, but think about yourself anytime, iPhone or not, you walk into a restaurant in a busy time of the day for a restaurant mm-hmm. , and you're the, there's maybe one other person in the restaurant. There's something inside of you that goes, it could be the greatest restaurant ever. It could be the best food, best atmosphere, but there's something inside you that intrinsically goes, huh, yeah, something's wrong. What's wrong with this, this ? And, and I think that's, I think that's who we are as, as human beings. When you walk into a store, there's nobody shopping there. When you, when you go to a gym and you work and there's, you're what, what's midnight? That's if you're doing it in a time where typically there would be people there, whether we walk into a church now, um, and there's, you know, there's nobody really attending. You go, huh? When you walk outta that, you don't say, you know, man, that was great. You go, man, that was great. I wonder why nobody goes.

Nick Clason (15:27):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, right? Cause none of that's based on the actual content maybe. Nope. Of like, oh, that was a great message I really resonated with, or whatever. Like what you're noticing is like the social equity landscape of like, what's going on around you, looking around, no one's there. And

Kerry Ray (15:44):
It is a thing, and it is a thing. I think that thing has always existed. And I think whether it's the iPhone or social media, um, has just exacerbated that and made it, yeah. A more prominent thing turned the volume up, if you will, uh, has made it a more prominent thing, more obvious thing. Um, the, but I think it's always been there. Uh, I think it's, you know, when you were eight years old and didn't get invited to a birthday party and you knew other people did mm-hmm. , that's, you had fomo, you were missing out. Um, I think that's just a, a human thing.

Nick Clason (16:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So you and I connected, you were at a church in Cincinnati. I was at a church in Cincinnati, and we were on the doorstep of working together. Um, and so in that process, I guess, I mean, I guess it was even formal. We had formal interviews and stuff. Um, you explained to me, uh, a thing that, I don't know if you came up with this or coined it or whatever, but you called it contact work. Um, so explain a little bit to our listeners, like what that is, where it comes from, maybe the theological or biblical basis for it. Um, and, uh, like then I wanna kind of explore, is that type of work, is that type of ministry, is that possible more and more as we enter into this digital space? But first of all, give us just a little bit of like a background of like, what is it, um, what are you talking about with contact work? I think when I heard it, I never heard it called that, but it was very intrinsic to me. Like, I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense, right? As a youth pastor, like, this is what I'm trying to do. I just never kind of put this label to it. So explain that a little bit.

Kerry Ray (17:32):
Yeah. Well, I definitely did not, uh, coin the phrase contact work. Um, that is, um, I served for a while, um, in young life, and that is a, that is a big, big piece of young life. If anybody's listening who has ever been a part or knows anything about young life, contact work is one of their core tenants. Um, they put a lot of, a lot of energy and effort and strategy

Nick Clason (18:00):
Into Andre good at contact work. That's, that's probably what they're best, I would say.

Kerry Ray (18:04):
Oh, they're, yeah, they're excellent at it. And it's because they value it. It's such a high value, um, for them. Like I said, it's one of their core tenants. Um, it's such a high value that they do it well. Um, and so borrowing that phrase from those guys, um, I just learned it and saw it done really well and saw it valued. Um, and so I, I kind of adopted it into early on into, um, what I was doing, and it was, it was going where they are versus expecting them to come to you. Hmm. Um, contact work at, at its core is, uh, young life would call it earning the right to be heard. Um, but it is, or maybe you hear them say, um, doing things on their turf mm-hmm. , um, so to speak. But basically it is, it is going to where the students are mm-hmm. versus sitting and expecting them to come to you, and then you're putting in the time with them in their places where they feel comfortable and confident, and where they maybe kinda run the show versus your place behind these walls, behind this door where you're in charge and are expecting them to, to do certain, certain things. Um, contact, contact work. Oops, sorry. Contact work is something that is something that we have done for years. It's an expectation.

Kerry Ray (19:37):
Sorry, my headphones went out for a second.

Nick Clason (19:40):
Oh, no, you're good. Contact work is sounds great to me. So,

Kerry Ray (19:42):
Okay. Contact work is, is something that, um, I have, you know, expected is the best word to use of any staff we have I've ever had on, on a, on a church staff. Um, it is, it's that big of a deal. Um, for example, when I had interns and, you know, we were only allowed, you know, what, 15 hours with an intern mm-hmm. mm-hmm. 10 of those hours with contact work, and I would ask them to, you know, fill out a form that tells me where they were going, what they were doing, who they, who they hung out with and talked to. Mm-hmm. , it was that big of a deal. I wanted them to value it. Um, that's when I first started in ministry. Early on, we didn't call it that. Um, but that was my role. Um, I had an older youth pastor who kinda looked at me and sat me down and said, Hey man, I, I'm too old to go run with the Bulls. Um, so , I'm gonna ask you to do that, and I'm gonna expect you to be in the school. I'm gonna expect you to be the one at the games. I'll still be the guy preaching, but, and you know, teaching, teaching you how to do those things, but, you know, you're the guy that's gonna run around with 'em. You can call it Tide Piper, whatever you wanna call it, but it is going and building relationships with students, with teenagers on their turf where they are at instead of expecting them to come to you.

Nick Clason (21:02):
Yeah. I think, and I think, like for me, man, the basis really of me starting this whole podcast is realizing that, uh, digital can play a role in that. You know, I think for churches, a lot of churches, uh, get stuck into their, like, programming schedule. It's Wednesday night, Sunday morning, whatever, and not realizing that there's another 167 unclaimed hours that students are living life doing their thing. Um, you know, so that can obviously be done in person, but how would you say, have you seen that be either possible, or would you say like, yeah, that's not even really a possibility, uh, to show up on their turf in like a digital or more of like a hybrid type of way?

Kerry Ray (21:53):
Lemme back up for a second first, and I can say that one, it's, it's part of what we're called to do. Mm-hmm. , if you're in ministry, um, we're supposed to be following and living as Jesus did. And what you never saw in the New Testament was Jesus just sit still somewhere and say, you know, everybody come to me. Mm-hmm. , I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna sit here , you know, in Jerusalem. I'm just gonna sit here and expect you to come to me. He traveled, he, he went around from town to town, place to place sharing and talking. And part of that was, you know, just getting around the people. Mm-hmm. , um, the people that, you know, he came to this place to die for was just to be amongst and, and interact with those people. Um, and that's part of our calling we're, we can't just sit in a church.

Kerry Ray (22:43):
You could have the greatest program in the world, but you sitting in a church and just expecting people to come to you is one arrogant too. Mm-hmm. , it's foolish. Three, it's ineffective. Um, it just doesn't, it's not the thing you can't, that's not who you're called to be. You're called to, to be out and about. And with people, people, these students are, you're calling, they're, they're coming to know Christ is your calling. And, and it can't be, I'm just sitting here and the kids that get here, that's great. The kids who don't hate it for them, um, that that's not okay. Yeah. So let's start there. Uh, number two, um, it, it matters to your community. Um, you hopefully want your church, your ministry, your student ministry. You want that to, to have such an impact on the lives of the people in your community, no matter their age, that if it disappeared, people would care. Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (23:40):
. Yeah.

Kerry Ray (23:41):
And to do that, you can't sit in your ivory tower literally and, and expect that to happen. You've got to go out and make some sort of impact, some sort of influence. Uh, and I think in the world we live in the, with the, um, deification, if you will, you know, all of the, you know, I am, you know, de deconstructing my, my religious experience. Um, people are weary. People are weary, people are leery I'll rhyme there. Uh, they're both, they are, they're, um, suspicious mm-hmm. of church. Like, what do you, you know, what do you want from me? Oh, you just want my money. Um, and we've got, if you're talking about students and general teenagers, uh, we've got, this is the first group generation that was raised by students who bowed out years ago. You know, statistically they're, they're called the nuns. N o n E S, not n u n S.

Kerry Ray (24:42):
But the parents are the people who were in student ministry, you know, maybe. And then they bowed out and their parents didn't, you know, didn't raise them in church. And so now they're having kids of their own. And, and so it's, it's blank slates. So you've got parents who don't know, who don't know church. You've got students who don't know church. Um, they're blank canvases. And so, uh, we are, should be out and about if nothing else trying to, trying to show and be the hands of Jesus Christ, the hands of beauty of Christ in these communities in which we are called the love administer to, um, digitally, um, I, I, let's be honest, we watched these last couple years with Covid shutting everything down. Mm-hmm. , we watched the churches who, and the student ministries who had embraced a, a different philosophy versus the come to me.

Kerry Ray (25:40):
Um, they transitioned better. I won't say, well, I will say they had, they made it through the Covid piece a little better mm-hmm. than the churches and the student ministries who lived in the come to us mentality. Um, but let's be honest, I think everybody struggled with it. Uh, because even young life, uh, who is excellent at contact work, I watched Young Life struggled to find themselves because they couldn't do that anymore. Yeah. They couldn't do the face to face interaction, and they had to try to do it in a digital format, and it didn't work as well. Sounds, um, it, it failed. Um, yeah. And it struggled. I mean, some of it, I mean, he, it kinda worked. Not really. I, I would say it failed. Um, even, you know, the big players in, in student industry, the people who were doing this, the guys out like, you know, um, fields and Josh, Doug Fields and Josh out in California went to a digital format.

Kerry Ray (26:38):
And I don't know, I, I haven't talked to these guys about it, so I'm gonna assume, but I, I would assume if you, you asked those guys, they would tell you that it was not what it was. Mm-hmm. , did they do the big digital thing? Well, sure they did. Yeah. But I don't, I don't think it was what it was before that. Yeah. I don't think they got the same interaction. It's a, it's a lot of work for a little payoff. Um, I know at the time of covid, I was in, uh, church in Cincinnati, Ohio, and our middle school ministry was tied to the weekends mm-hmm. , and it was kinda a show up to church, and you go to this thing, but our high school was built offsite. Um, and we had had multiple years where the students had built communities, it houses across the city, and those communities met offsite, and it was in that community that those students lived in with small group leaders that lived in that community that those students lived in.

Kerry Ray (27:33):
And those students were showing up and inviting people into this thing because it was their thing. Mm-hmm. , um, it was kind of their turf, but with our, uh, blanket over the top of it. Sure. It was, but it was still their thing. Um, and when Covid hit, I got to see firsthand middle school, they come to us, we shut that down for a little bit, then we tried to do it digitally. It just didn't fly. Um, it was a struggle to put, you know, 10 kids in the room, in, in a digital room, uh, high school. I don't think, if I looked at the numbers, and I tracked them every week, I think in total we lost two students. Wow. Two, why? And we actually picked up a few. Why? Because they had already built this community that was not attached to the come, come and see mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (28:31):
It was, it was a community. So when we took that community that already existed and just moved it to a digital format, they, they still do the same people. It was still, it was built on a different thing. Mm-hmm. , it was centered around community and not centered around come and see Yes. Or come and participate. Yeah. Um, so it, it, it, it mattered. It, it changed. And I, like I said, I watched, um, during those, during the covid years, got to see, you know, there were plenty of churches that that died. There were plenty of churches that are still, you know, where a year out now when this is being recorded. And they are still struggling with putting the pieces back together. I don't think, I don't think ministry, I don't think church will ever quite be the same. Um, post covid. Interesting. But, and I think youth ministry is harder, um, because I think students got realize they didn't have to be there.

Kerry Ray (29:25):
Mm-hmm. , uh, the church kids stopped going. The, the non-church kids never went. Uh, and we had a generation now that has been raised at least for a couple of years, you think of a sixth grader, they went through sixth, seventh, and part of grade without ever being in a so ninth grade in that time where it's already hard to be a part of a community because you drive for the first time, you've got some freedom in ninth and 10th grade. Yeah. Depending on your age and your state, uh, you start having freedom, you start working, um, you start doing other things. It's already hard in the, in the youth industry world. For those of you listening to this that are in, in ministry, you know, that time is already difficult anyway. But now you've got a group who went three years without engaging at all mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (30:08):
Uh, and then behind them is another group that went three years without engaging at all. And behind them is another group that, you know, hey, which is babies at the time. So it's going to be a difficult dig out. Um, and I think that that actually makes this contact work piece even more relevant. Mm-hmm. . Now to your question, if, can it be digital? I don't know. I, I have not seen that work super well. Um, now I will tell you this, we all know that, um, for a teenager, uh, when you, and I think of the friends we make, you know, they say, well, my friend, you know, you like, you think my friend that I play, you know, call on duty with, you know, that lives in California. You're like, you never, you, you live in Alabama, you don't know that kid , but you're like, no, I play with them every day.

Kerry Ray (31:00):
I, you know, I spend hours with them on a headset, you know, shooting people and, and you know, talking about stuff over the headset to them that is a real friend. Yeah. Um, that barrier has dropped mm-hmm. to us as adults. You know, I think, you know, for those of you that don't know, those of us, you know, over the age of, let's call it 27 ish, you know, we're digital. We're digital immigrants. Mm-hmm. , we're, we come with baggage of how technology works and how it should be used and utilized, and, uh, where our teenagers and below, or digital natives mm-hmm. , there's never been a time where they did not know technology. There's never been a time where social media was not interactive for them. Um, and so we as adults, as digital immigrants, let's use that instead of adults, us as digital immigrants, we look at, um, online friendships, online relationships, um, and go, that's weird.

Kerry Ray (32:03):
Um, that's not a thing. But to them as digital natives, that has always been the thing that has always been very real. Um, dating apps and, you know, swiping left and right. And I mean, that went from like a silly thing. Like, you know, this is those of us, again as digital immigrants, look at that and go, come on. Um, you know, you're just, you're just, you know, trying to find a hot dude or hot girl and hook up. But for them, they're like, no, I, I'm trying to find a relationship. I get to know people this way. Yeah. Um, it's, it's fascinating. Yeah. Um, so I think there is, there, there's gotta be a way for that to happen mm-hmm. , and we've gotta figure out this, and I'd go back to contact work. There's gotta be a way for contact work to happen in a digital context. But there is some, there is something to set for a loss of the, the face to face because the face to face is so significant.

Nick Clason (32:58):
Wow. Well, wasn't that awesome? I'm so excited for you to hear and learn from part two. Um, anything and everything that Kerry mentioned, uh, YM 360, my youth min, um, all those things. Um, and also Derry's episode. I'm gonna link all of those in the show notes, which you can grab a in your podcast catcher or be over at hybridministry.xyz. And I would really encourage you, because he said a lot of really good things. And if you're like me and you listen on 1.5 or two times speed, uh, you may have not caught it, or you're driving or you mowing the lawn or whatever you're doing, head to hybridministry.xyz and you can grab a full transcript of this episode so that you can have and use to utilize at your discretion. That's a thing that we do and produce for you, um, for a hundred percent free.

Nick Clason (33:49):
So we just wanna let you know that that is available there for you to check out at http://hybridministry.xyz If you found this helpful and I'm sure that you did, please give it a share. Send it to someone that you know, maybe in youth ministry, um, and leave us a rating or a review. That would be really, really helpful for us. We would love to, uh, hear that. So, um, we will chat with you guys next time. Excited to share with you part two of this episode. But until then, we'll talk again later by.

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TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody. And welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast. On today's episode, I just wanted to have a quick conversation, a brain dump, if you will, about why we do what we do as Christians in church. And you know what I mean by that is there's a lot of moving parts in any organization if you're running a business or if you're an accountant or if you run a plumbing company or whatever, right? There's logistics, there's email, there's it, there's booking, there's scheduling, there's accounting, there's marketing, there's branding and color schemes and merchandising and content creation and social media. I mean, there's a million layers to everything, and the church is not exempt from that. And so what I wanna do, like I said, give just a quick little brain dump here. This is something that's been swirling around in my brain.

Nick Clason (01:09):
I am your host, Nick Clason. If you and I have not had a chance to meet, so excited that you're jumping on this, uh, podcast with me today. Um, I, we, we, we, uh, have this podcast, the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, because we are attempting to live life out in a hybrid sort of way. We don't live in a physical only world anymore, but we don't live in a digital only world either. How do we marry those two things together? And how do we create a hybrid sort of experience, uh, for the people that we're trying to reach? Because, you know, me, my story, like I'm a pastor, and so I've been called by God to reach people, make disciples, um, and share with them the mi, the mission, message, and hope found only in Jesus. And so how do we do that? And so for, you know, the majority of our lifetime, uh, we've done that through the local body, um, of the church.

Nick Clason (02:03):
And I believe that that's, that's a theological, um, understanding of what we have going on, right? Like the theological implications, Hebrew chapter 10, verse 24 and 25, Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Not giving up meeting together is somewhere in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another in all the more, as you see the day approaching, it's a biblical mandate for us to do life together. And by no means am I proposing that we don't do that. Um, so like I said, I'm a pastor, um, specifically I'm a youth pastor, uh, work in the Dallas, Texas area. And I just started a new job, started a new job, um, at, uh, going on two months now at this point. But the first month was, uh, remote and traveling back and forth between Dallas and Chicago, where I, I lived before.

Nick Clason (02:56):
And so, yeah, I really only feel like I've been here like 20 something days or whatever since, you know, since I was able to kind of get in here full time and get things going. So, you know, one of the, and, and listen, before I jump into this, this could feel like a slight or a, you know, a dig at the church I'm at, or the churches that I've been in in my lifetime. And the fact is I'm very thankful for every single opportunity that I've been given. Um, I see how every, uh, stop in my journey, in my career, uh, has led me to a very specific spot in my life and how God has orchestrated, um, and paved those ways. And so, you know, there's some, uh, there's some jobs that I've had, you know, that, that have some hurt. Um, and there's definitely like some moments in my life and in my ministry career that, um, I've, you know, I've struggled with or whatever.

Nick Clason (04:01):
Um, but I'm thankful for each and every stop along the way. I'm thankful for what I've learned at each and every stop along the way, um, and how the Lord has used that to grow me and give me just a, a perspective. And so I say all that to say what I'm about to say. Uh, like I said, may seem like I'm poking holes, like I'm digging, like I'm frustrated and I want as much as I can to preface that and say, I'm really, I'm not okay, especially if you're my boss or HR person and you're signing my paycheck, very appreciative for the job that you've given me. But what I've most recently, especially in this most recent onboarding, and so where I work now, I'm thrilled. I love my job. I love what I do. Um, I love, you know, they believe in me and they're giving me opportunities to go out and run and innovate and try some stuff.

Nick Clason (04:57):
And so for that, I'm incredibly thankful. Um, however, a lot of this stuff is popping up in my brain because of the fact that I'm starting somewhere new. And so, while I'm incredibly thankful what I'm about to say when I'm about to kind of like, um, I dunno, shine a light on, if you will, may seem like I'm aiming it at the church that I'm currently employed at. And by no means am I trying to, like I said, shine a light and be frustrated, whatever. So I think of caveat of that enough, it's been like two minutes of caveat, so you're probably ready to hear what I'm about to say. So in the whole onboarding process, um, actually, lemme see if I can pull it up. Um, in my email, when I first started, I got, um, information on how to set up, uh, my account for our church database, church management software.

Nick Clason (05:54):
Um, I also got information on all my benefits, which obviously I need that, and I'm grateful for, and I'm thankful for, right? Um, let's see, what else do I, I got, I got information on, uh, how to join, like the staff, um, info portal, like, um, it's called leader, Uh, you know, so it's like that plus like, uh, what's, you know, uh, development and stuff like that. Um, email, um, expenses, a couple of different portals for expenses. Um, and then our request, uh, system, which is like requests and calendars, maintenance things. Um, and I'm trying to think what else. Oh, there's, then there's task management software, um, that I had to learn. Then there's keys and there's fobs, uh, to get into doors. And then there's meetings with like department heads, you know, so like, um, how do we, in our, like I'm a youth pastor, so how do we, um, interact with the tech team?

Nick Clason (06:57):
How do we interact with the worship team? How do we interact with the creative team? How do we interact with the communications team and how do we interact with the facilities team? Um, a lot of the answers to that fall under the systems and like portals that I just listed out. Um, however, there's another like meeting to just sort of like a get to know people and then be like, um, kind of hash it out, chat it out, right? And so I, again, I say all that to say like, there's a lot of focus on those things. And as a pastor, um, Jesus committed all of his disciples, including pastors, to go make disciples, make more disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them, commanding them. Any promise that he'll be with us, promise us his presence. I'll be with you always to the very end of the age.

Nick Clason (07:53):
It's Matthew, uh, 28, 18 through 20. So I, I think, again, caveat, love, love my job. I think anyone that you're like questioning, like, why do we need this? Why do we, that this, the other thing, Well, those processes help make us more efficient so that we can, um, not waste time on details and tasks, and those things don't get dropped. And so then thus, therefore, we can be more effective and freed up to make disciples great. I mean, I agree with that. I agree with that on paper. Okay. And then, um, you know, you think about, think about like, what do we do as the church, right? So if I sit down, I'm like, Hey, I need to understand what my role as a youth pastor is in relation to worship, in relation to tech, in relation to facilities, right? Like, what does that, why, why is all that important?

Nick Clason (08:57):
Well, because I'm gonna be using the building. So we need the sound, the lights, the worship, the music, the facility to be ready, set up for a, you know, for what? For our event. Well, what's the purpose of our event? Well, that's to make disciples, right? It's really easy. And Ayanna, I can't remember who coined this term, you know, but I'm sure you've heard it before, right? There's, there's the tyranny of the urgent, right? There's always something more urgent, pressing. Like right now, I'm looking at my computer and I have one big red, uh, bubble on my email saying I have an unread email. And my human inclination, in fact, like computer companies, software companies, like they, they build it this way to give it like this, like, you know, urgency type of thing. So it's like, Oh, I gotta check that notification, right? That's, that's always the case.

Nick Clason (09:55):
We're always looking to figure out like, what is the most important thing? What do we need to handle most? And so in my church, we meet on Wednesday nights, we also meet on Sunday mornings. And so, and that's, I've had that rhythm before. Uh, but I, I'm most recently came from a church before this where we only had like one week worth of, uh, one thing per week of stu student ministry programming. So Wednesday and Sunday, like, that's, that's rapid to me. Like, it, it feels like much more, uh, much more frenetic of a pace. Frenetic is the wrong word, but like, the frequency is just doubled, right? It's from one time a week to not two times a week, Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. And those gaps are shorter. And so to get my things done in between those two are quicker. And so, like I said, I'm always turning around and finding myself like, Oh, you know, I'm recording this on a Tuesday night, tomorrow morning, uh, is Wednesday, I'll be at church all day long.

Nick Clason (10:51):
And then, because I'm at church all day long on Wednesday, um, I will work most of my day on Thursday and be off on Friday. I gotta get everything between, you know, tomorrow and Thursday ready and locked and loaded for Sunday. And I may in fact get some stuff ready and locked and loaded for Sunday, tomorrow, on Wednesday before I ever even, uh, you know, host the next event. I'm two events ahead, right? And that's, if I'm really, you know, most people say, Oh, it's if you're really well planned and that's, you're really on top of things. And, and I like to think I am. However, that there, you know, there's always, like, you always work best under pressure. Um, there's actually like a psychological term of that called like forced focus. And so if you're forced to focus, like as you're zeroing in on an event, no matter how good, and well you are planned out, like, you'll come up with something, you're like, Shoot, it was a good idea.

Nick Clason (11:47):
I should have done that. You know, So anyway, all that right? Aha. That to be said, What, why are we doing church? Like, we're not in the event business, but we are a little bit, right? And here's why. This is a hybrid conversation because, uh, 10, even 10 years ago, maybe like 20 at the most, right? The way to gather together in the way to disseminate, uh, information, theological information, with the exception of the Bible in like print pieces, using printing press, books, magazines, whatever, newspaper articles, like the only way to distribute that information was through the local church. And so thus, the regular gathering was really important because you'd come together and maybe the church would have access to these print pieces of these magazines. They'd get 'em in bulk or whatever, and they'd provide them for their parishioners, their congregation members. But now, since the advent of the internet, all that stuff is available to people.

Nick Clason (12:51):
And so the novelty of church or the uniqueness that it brought, it, it almost feels like it's not there as much. And then again, what are we doing? Like, we're making disciples through the context of hosting events. And I, I, I, I think events matter, and I think they're important. Um, you know, but like, like I, I told you a couple episodes ago, go back and listen to it where I said, Hey, here's what we're, you know, trying to do on social media or whatever, Um, trying to launch some stuff. I just pulled TikTok open on my account, and that's why you heard some background noise on that. Um, and I'm gonna do it again right here, but, um, listen, like I, we posted a like sermon, uh, recap deal, um, couple weeks ago, and I had a 437 views on, on one of those, right?

Nick Clason (13:49):
That's one of my higher ones. That's, that's, you know, better than most. But here's the thing that's kind of crazy. Think about like, when I gather all my students together, um, I have like a hundred, a hundred students, and that's, that's good, right? That's, that's pretty big. Um, some, you know, somewhere between 102 hundred students all together, if everyone showed up, you, if you're a youth pastor, you know how this goes, right? And so, uh, what's more advantageous? Well, I know, I know the students in my room, so I have a captive audience. I'm able to disciple them a little bit better. I'm able to craft the message, um, so that they hear what, you know, maybe they need to hear whatever they're like struggling with or through. However, like the reach on TikTok is like five times that with that one video. You know, some videos are smaller, like, you know, the most recent one I think had like 19.

Nick Clason (14:44):
So it's, it's obviously a lot, a lot smaller. And, uh, TikTok is less about who you follow and more about being, being discovered. And so, um, what is the next step for those audience members and all that stuff. All all that being said, like I know I find myself being challenged to be a disciple maker, be a dis be a disciple myself, of Jesus, and out of the overflow of that, make more and better disciples of him. And the, the context or the fabric, which with which at least the majority of the time of my job is soaked into, is through executing and, um, planning events, maintaining a physical facility, and, you know, worrying about branding, messaging, signage, like all those ancillary pieces. And you know, when it's all said and done, like officially on my, like, I don't, I don't have a time sheet, I'm salaried, right?

Nick Clason (15:53):
But if I did like on my time sheet, like Sunday mornings with students is probably like two hours. And then Wednesday nights with students is another like two hours. And if I'm like a really good youth pastor and I'm like getting coffee or going to football games, let's say that's another like two to four hours. Like in my 40 hour week, I spend eight, eight hours a great week, maybe 10 hours if I'm like super over the top, like really on it with actual teenagers. And like, I get it, right? Like in Ephesians, Paul said, Equipped the saints for works and acts of service. And like you heard, to have a hundred, a hundred plus kids, like, and we have small group leaders that, you know, it's, it's technically their job on our, in our pipeline to like, make that happen. But like, call to make disciples.

Nick Clason (16:45):
And so again, I say all this to say like, I'm not disgruntled, not angry. I love my church. And quite frankly, like I'm here because I'm so passionate about this hybrid stuff and in marrying like the digital with the physical, not because I love digital so much, cuz I really don't, but because I think that, well, I know that there's 167 other hours a week that the one hour a week that kids are sitting in our service, in my church I have too. So 166 hours in addition in a student's life, what am I doing then? How am I reaching a student where they are? How are they learning, growing, developing deeper into the core characters of Christ and doing the things that he challenged them to do? How else are they coming across those things? If it's not just a wins in night when they're in the building with me, or on a Sunday morning when they're in the building with me. Like when else are they being challenged by their youth pastor, by their church to live out their faith, to live out their faith, to learn the knowledge, to understand the things and tenants of the Bible, but

Nick Clason (17:48):
Also then to carry out that message to their friends, to reach their friends who are far from Jesus, to, to share the message of hope, the gospel with their friends who don't know him, to grow deeper in their relationship, to hone their skills, their character, so that it mirrors more closely like Christ to, to follow what, what his mission was that he laid out. I mean, this is so much more than how do I return in my receipts and how do I learn the softwares in the systems? Like I get it, right? Like at church is an organization. And without those things, you know, it would probably be far less effective. I get it. And you know, it's, it, it, maybe it's just a necessary evil, I don't know. Um, but it's just, it's something that got me thinking, like, you know, sit in a staff meeting today and we're just going over tons and tons of logistics and you know, like I said, I love my job.

Nick Clason (18:45):
I have a really great job, and they're, they're allowing us to think outside the box and allowing us to break the mold a little bit. And so I'm, I'm really grateful for that. Um, but I just wonder if sometimes church, not just my church, all churches get a sucked into the tyranny of the urgent and b, turn into event makers as opposed to makers of disciples, builders of disciples, crafting, honing the next generation to look and act more like the person of Jesus. Like that's, that was his commission. So if we start with that, if we, if we start with the why, like why do we do this? And is an event the most effective way to do it? Probably, Or at least, at least if it's not, it's, it's a part of a hybrid solution to what the future looks like. And I don't have all the answers.

Nick Clason (19:38):
And that's you. That's, I think that's why I'm coming across passionate and potentially angry. I'm not angry. I'm really not. I'm just, I, I'm really, I'm right now I'm gonna study provided through my church about 50 days through the life of Christ. It's an amazing study. I've done it before. I'm doing it again, just being reminded about how intentional Jesus was about investing in people living life with his disciples and modeling for them what his ministry model was. And, and then I turn around and I'm, you know, I'm having to like, figure out how to like submit her a seat cuz I've never done it before. Cuz you know, I always had my admin do it. And, uh, she, she recently left and started a new job somewhere else. And so we're looking for one. And you know, I'm like slugging through that a little bit and I'm like, man, I get it.

Nick Clason (20:28):
Like right. It's necessary. And if anyone, if anyone from where I work hears this, they're gonna like, think I'm just this ungrateful, you know, complaining guy. Like I'm not, I'm really not. I'm just, I'm wrestling with like, what's the most important and how do we, how do we create something to respond to the tyranny of the urgent while not losing ourselves in the making of disciples. And I think that that's, I think every youth pastor, I think every pastor, every person in vocational ministry feels that tension at some point. So if you're in vocational ministry, let me hear it from you. Um, we're in this together and like I said, I love where I work. I don't have all the answers, um, but it's just something that got me thinking today. So I don't know. Listen bro, this is like a stream of consciousness. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna have chapter markers for this at the end of the day. Like this is just me rambling talking for 20 minutes. So if you found a helpful, let me know. Reach out on Twitter at hybrid ministry or, uh, swing by the website, hybridministry.xyz. Uh, and until next time, we'll talk to you later. Peace out my friends.

Follow us on Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or check us out online - http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TIMECODES

00:00-1:29 - Intro and Welcome
1:29-6:28 - Rest & Boundaries with Digital Ministry
6:28-11:10 - Hack 1 - Find a Hobby
11:10-18:00 - Hack 2 - Turn your phone to mute
18:00-23:22 - Hack 3 - Avoid Social Media
23:23-28:26 - Hack 4 - Get up Early and Read your Bible
28:26-33:10 - Hack 5 - Take care of yourself physically
33:10-37:21 - Hack 6 - Use all of your vacation
37:21-38:57 - Stat Correction - Take your TikTok Watermark off of all your Instagram Reel posts
38:55-39:12 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT

Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hello everybody. And welcome to another edition of the hybrid ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason alongside my amazing friend. And co-host Matt Johnson, Matt, how are we doing this morning,

Matt Johnson (00:18):
Nick? I am doing great. I, uh, woke up with for a nice little run, go the sunrise. It was, uh, just a really refreshing morning, able to pray a little bit. It was a great way to start the day. So,

Nick Clason (00:31):
So when you run, are you a podcast guy? Are you a music guy or are you a nothing guy so that you can have your, your prayer moments?

Matt Johnson (00:41):
Oh, good question. Um, so normally I'm a podcast guy, but right now I'm going through an audio book about how to raise great daughters, cuz I'm about to have a daughter and I'm freaking out a little bit um, but you got

Nick Clason (00:56):
The first little bit, all they do is poop, man.

Matt Johnson (00:58):
Yeah. So you know of watching all the newborn videos and stuff, but I think that was why I went for that run, but I usually pause it at some point and just, you know, do some prayer. Um, but I'm not a psychopath like Joe Rogan where I just listen to nothing, my entire run like a crazy person. I don't understand that.

Nick Clason (01:15):
I didn't know that about him, but yeah, that's psychotic,

Matt Johnson (01:17):
he, uh, I remember podcasts forever ago where he was talking about that. He's like, if you're listening to something during you're run, you're not running right. Or something along those lines. And ever since then, I was like, this man is a crazy man. So,

Nick Clason (01:32):
Well, that's actually a good kind of segueing tool I wanna talk about today. Um, I, this one, this one feels a little bit of like a deviation. I feel like from what our normal kind of topics are, but I wanted talk about rest and boundaries. Um, love it as it pertains to working in a church as it pertains to being the social media person. And so, you know, I thought, I thought we could just kind of have a conversation around the importance of that, um, rest, uh, and how we restore ourselves. Uh, because from my vantage point, if you're listening to this podcast, the odds are you are the social media person at your church, or at least you're interested in it, some degree in fashion and people like that are typically the most technologically savvy in their church. That means that they're, um, young or whatever, for whatever reason you've been pegged that person.

Nick Clason (02:26):
Uh, and so that means that you are the person on social media maybe personally. So how do you create good boundaries between, um, your work life, which is gonna be about what you're posting and what you're trying to do for your church, uh, digitally in a hybrid sort of way, and then how you personally restore and how you personally, uh, rest and reflect. And so even, you know, you saying you're out on a run and, uh, just using that as a time to kind of pray and process. I'm wondering if that's one of yours, but I'm not gonna give, give anything away. So mm-hmm, what, like before we dive into like tips and hacks, like what's been your observation or your experience with this sort of thing, as it relates to people working in churches or working in ministry context.

Matt Johnson (03:09):
Um, the biggest thing I have noticed personally, of people working in the ministry, especially, uh, the church ministry world is burnout is exceptionally high. Um, and I think it has a lot large part to do with, uh, you know, usually people are wearing multiple and multiple of hats. Um, mm-hmm, for some, probably 90% of people listen, this podcast are, you know, running social media, being a youth pastor and, uh, in charge of some other ministry at their church. So, um, and it's just, cuz we know, um, the margin of like resources at a church is just little thinner when it comes to stuff, cuz you're relying on not revenue streams necessarily. So, um, I think it's easy to get burned out and it's easy to kind of lose focus of what's actually important and not take care of ourselves. And I've also noticed usually people go on a sabbatical way too late mm-hmm um, usually we go, okay, it's time for you to do a sabbatical. And you know that person's been there 20 years on burnout. They come back from the sabbatical and they still have it fully recovered usually. So, um, yeah, we just gotta figure out how do we get you through those points where you don't have vacation where you're in the middle of everything else going on, especially like Christmas and Easter seasons is a great example.

Nick Clason (04:33):
Yeah. Yeah. It's , it's the whole sabbatical. Thing's funny. I've been in, in ministry now 11 and a half, almost 12 years. Most churches give sabbatical around year seven, but it's, it's a sabbatical from like your church. So seven years at your church and I've never, I've never made it that long. So yeah.

Matt Johnson (04:52):
exactly.

Nick Clason (04:53):
Don't know what that's they don't know what that feels like.

Matt Johnson (04:55):
I know that's more, that's the typical person. So they go from one church, you know, they get pretty to that edge of burnout and they go to the next church, they get refreshed. Cause you get that energy being somewhere new, but then like that mean it's the same workload sometimes more. Um, I've never really been anywhere. That's been a less workload than the last place for a long period of time. So

Nick Clason (05:17):
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And, and in my case almost most, most jobs I've taken, I've not had any sort of like weaker whatever in between. Like I remember, uh, couple, a couple of job transitions ago. My last week, um, at one church was running, executing everything for summer camp. We like did our own summer camp. So like I was teaching, speaking, all those things, um, drove home, packed my office. And then that was like on Saturday morning, the next day I went to my new church and then that Monday morning I boarded the bus to go to their summer camp. So it was like two back to back weeks of summer camp. And so it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, from one job with a nice little break and a nice little pause, it was literally like boom done. Here we go onto the next one.

Nick Clason (06:01):
And so, yep. And I think that some of that mean like there's just a cultural expectation about, um, work and hustle and all those types of things and, and you know, we can get into like, uh, generations and the different, the different approaches to work and attitudes toward work and all those types of things. And I, there's definitely a difference. Um, and we don't wanna be lazy, you know, but we also wanna be smart, you know, with what we're doing in our workloads and stuff like that. So, uh, I had each of us kind of come up with three tips or tricks, uh, as it pertains to, um, rest boundaries. And so Matt, do you wanna go first and share your first tip, your first trick, your first hack, um, on having good rhythms of rest?

Matt Johnson (06:44):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, my first tip hack, um, is really find that hobby that, um, helps you escape. Um, like that is your hobby that you can, um, when you get home or on the weekend that you can go do that is nothing to do with work. like it can't have anything to do with work. And I have two, uh, one is fly fishing and I love fly fishing, especially, um, what the aspect is. I can go to the middle of nowhere and I have no cell service . And

Nick Clason (07:22):
How often are you fly fishing in Chicago?

Matt Johnson (07:24):
Uh, not a lot here, but when I was in Colorado, I was going about every other weekend and my stepdad dad, and I would go up to the mountains, find some river and I'd have go to canyons and I'd have no cell service. So even if the of the world went on fire, I'd have no idea. Um, which was awesome because like I could really unplug. And then the second thing for me personally is, uh, gaming video games. Um, you need, and that's, uh, you know, I worked in the game industry as an intern for a long time and um, they've always been a huge part of my life. So, uh, I, uh, able to escape different worlds, um, and really just like live out whatever I'm doing, but that's actually become a time where I bond with all my friends from like high school and stuff. So those are two great hobbies, both, uh, very different one. I literally unplug from the world and the other one you're virtually unplugging. So both, uh, the work good for me mentally.

Nick Clason (08:26):
Yeah. So like, okay, let, let me, uh, push, push a little bit on this. So you are not in Colorado anymore. You are in Chicago, you don't like fly fishing is not a super accessible thing here. So how have you personally kind of dealt with that as like, do you feel like, uh, the, the geography of your, your current occupation is keeping you from being able to access one of your hobbies and how, how are you like dealing with that navigating through that?

Matt Johnson (08:55):
Yeah, that's a, I mean, that's a great question. It has definitely changed the way I do fly fish. So, um, I mean there's a fly fishing community out here, but it's very different than the Colorado community they're fly fishing and ponds and like lakes and stuff.

Nick Clason (09:09):
Yeah. Which

Matt Johnson (09:10):
I mean is totally fine, but I, when I fly fish, I like to stand in the river with my waiters on, let the water rush over me and just be, really be in nature. So I've done that aspect where, okay, I'm gonna, you know, um, go lake fly fishing or whatever. Um, there are a couple streams, you know, you just gotta drive to them. So it definitely though has hindered my, uh, my escapism through fly fishing. So I've had to be a little more creative with how I escape into nature now. And that's been more intentional going to just nature preserves and, you know, um, uh, like just trying my best to escape into the wilderness, how I can here. But as you know, there's not tons of nature around the , so

Nick Clason (10:00):
yeah,

Matt Johnson (10:01):
Yeah. It is definitely a challenge here.

Nick Clason (10:04):
Yeah, no, it's good. I, I think like for me, uh, this is one of things I'm honestly really, really terrible at is having my own hobbies because I, I like my hobby. I do feel like in a lot of ways is being a youth pastor. And so, um, it's funny cuz like, uh, guy used to work for, uh, I would text him like an idea about youth mysteries, like randomly late at night and he was like stop working. And I said, I, I, this is, this is what's fun for me, you know? Uh, but the, to your point, the problem is like if I only ever do that only ever think about that, I don't have anything that's legitimately just for me, you know? Yep. Um, and even like things like I'll go on runs and I'll listen to podcasts and they're typically ministry related podcasts, you know, I have some, I have some that are more hobby related like sports or whatever. Um, and those typically those typically fly to the top of my playlist queue anyway. Uh, so that, that maybe is the way I do it, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not very good at this. So thanks. Thank you for challenging me already this

Matt Johnson (11:10):
Morning. It's my

Nick Clason (11:11):
Goal, man. So all right. Uh, okay, so here's a hack I have. Okay. Um, and I don't know if this is a good strategy or not, especially for like a communications person in your church. Um, it's gonna, it's gonna maybe feel like, uh, not the, maybe the best strategy. Uh, but my phone personally, dude, like it never rings. Yep. Um, I literally have it on mute all the time. in fact I was it yesterday, maybe it was two days ago. I literally lost my phone for like two hours at work. And um, I, I, I retraced all my steps. I couldn't find it. And do you know what everyone's solution was? They said, oh, do you want me to call you which like I have an office phone. Like I would've done this myself. If I thought that this was an option, but I knew it wasn't because even if they call me, it was just going to be silent and, and people are like, oh, but if you're near it, you'll hear it buzz.

Nick Clason (12:13):
No, like not on vibrate, like all the way silent. Like it never, I don't have any notifications come through ever. Um, and so like the only thing that's even like remotely, uh, close to my phone ringing, quote unquote, is, uh, I have a watch. And so like my, my wife, her texts and phone calls, those are the two things that like come through to my watch. Otherwise everything else is essentially muted. And I don't have like email push notifications come through to my phone. Um, the only thing that does come through to my phone or like text messages or whatever. And, and that's part of my, like part of my strategy, because as I've stepped into this place, which has got just more people and more demands and all those types of things, uh, more and more people are looking and kind of vying for your time.

Nick Clason (13:01):
And so instead of the way I, the hack, I guess, and this for me is instead of letting my phone dictate to me when I'm supposed to respond, I, I choose those and I build pockets of those into my schedule, you know? So like it's not that I don't check my email. I check it every single day, multiple times a day, but I don't do it when it dings and comes through to me. Um, and that's also just like for me, a focus, uh, a focus hack as well, because if I'm writing something or doing something and I get a ding or a notification, uh there's there's studies that say like the brain is unable to multitask and is unable to, to go over to one thing and come back to another thing with the same capacity it takes, it takes a gr I don't remember what the exact like numbers are, but it takes a ridiculous amount of time for your brain to shut that back off and go back into, you know, that other thing.

Nick Clason (13:56):
So, uh, I just, I grab my phone and if there's stuff on there that I need to respond to, I do it, but I do so kind of on my own time. So I, I really, I treat text a lot, like how I treat email. Um, because again, they're not, they're not driving me and speaking of driving, uh, sometimes that drives people insane. Um, and so I, you know, I just like, I'm up front with them a little bit and I say, Hey, sorry. I was, you know, doing whatever, cuz it's, it's not that I'm often just being lazy and ignoring it. It's just that for me to be able to focus, I need to not be being distracted. Mm-hmm so,

Matt Johnson (14:31):
Yep. No, I love that. I, uh, I'm the same way I keep my phone on mute too. Um, except for my wife and, uh, setting that up has been a game changer for me personally. And I'm sorry if I miss your calls or it takes me a little bit to get back to you, but if it's super important, give me a call. Like you, it goes to my watch and then I go check my phone and then, um, see what's going on. So

Nick Clason (14:55):
Yeah. Well, and I mean, yesterday I sent you like four messages, um, and they, like, none of them were urgent and they were all just sort of like, um, observations or like funny things or like, oh, did you see this? And you just, you responded to all of them, like in one text, you know? Yep. And I didn't need it. I, I didn't need you to respond. So I was totally fine. Like with the pace with which you replied, I knew eventually you'd get to it. And so I wasn't, you know, I wasn't like worried about it. And so that contrary to popular belief, uh, that is okay. Yes,

Matt Johnson (15:27):
Definitely. And we need to be okay with that as a culture and a society. Um, and we also need to realize that 99% of things that we have think is urgent are not urgent now. Um, that's something I've run into a lot. Uh we're like, we get this out right now. This is super important. And I'm like, well, yeah, let's get it out right now. But the difference between now and, you know, an hour from now, there's no difference actually in communication or, uh, the stress level of that. So, and that's gonna, we have to get out of the tyranny of the urgent. So mm-hmm

Nick Clason (16:02):
yeah. So, so like, let's get super, super practical on this for just two seconds. Cuz so like my wife and I, for whatever reason, the last two churches I've worked at have been like, they've been like the absolute iron curtain for uh, text messages. And so like my phone doesn't really work super well in, in the churches I've worked in. And so my wife and I have just defaulted to using, um, like WhatsApp as a text message service. And so I use that regularly every single day, but really only with my wife. And so that's how I have like custom notifications of hers that come through. But nobody else's. Um, how, how have you set it up where you get text messages alerted to you that are only from your wife and nobody else, like what's the setup for you on your

Matt Johnson (16:48):
Like phone? Yeah. I just I've set her up on iPhone. Like you can start setting people up and you do not disturb as like, um, your favorites or whatever. And that's who she is. I have her and my mom and that's it. And I only have MYM on just cuz you know, whatever craziness could happen back home, I want to be available. But um, and then my wife obviously, cause like I said, she's pregnant, so I gotta be ready at the drop of a whim to make sure, you know, whatever happens happens. So it's been a yeah, it's my wife and obviously she's, you know yeah. My favorite

Nick Clason (17:20):
Even if, even if she's not pregnant. Yeah, yeah. It's it's your wife. So I love that. Cool. Yeah. So like you said, I think that's a really good, I think, I think, uh, we're we are in a little bit of a cultural moment of shifting more to this because I mean asked, think about the other day I grabbed my phone and I was like, dang, there's so many just notifications on here. And like that's what apps have have learned like, oh push notifications are the way to get people's attention. Yeah. But if, you know, I like when I grab my mom's phone, for example, she has 47,000 unread notifications. I'm like, what is the point of this? Like your brain can't physically process all this. So I dunno. Anyway. All right. Hack number two for you.

Matt Johnson (18:01):
Um, so even I'm gonna piggyback off a little bit of your phone stuff. So mine is also with phone and this is really to do with mental health and this is gonna probably sound crazy coming from the, a marketing communications person is I try to avoid social media as much as possible in my free time. Um, yeah. So I try to keep up with social media trends. So maybe at the most I'm on, you know, I'll look at social media an hour at the most, but I try driving a hit an hour, you know, I try to do like maybe 30 minutes, I've deleted most of the apps off my phone. So I actually have to be do my due diligence, like make it part of my work rhythms. Like I'm taking social for work. I'm not checking social to pass time. Um, and I was just realizing that I was just becoming so negative about so many different things, um, that I shouldn't be negative or mad about. Like my sports teams being mad about whatever's going on with them. um, mad about some

Nick Clason (18:57):
Sports are so dumb, man. They get me in such a bad news.

Matt Johnson (19:00):
Exactly. That's like, why am I mad about this? Like I used to love this, uh that's cuz I wasn't on Twitter worried about what other people were saying or worried about what trade was happening or on Reddit, seeing what all the sports, all the people in my fandom, my, um, think, um, seemed with like video games, the bashing of like video games or even the church, like, you know, you would go on Twitter and I can see how people, you know, make, say, say something about the church and it's really easy to get down about that. So I just started like going, you know, this isn't worth it for me mentally. Um, and uh, I'm not gonna waste my time with it. So I deleted a bunch of the apps and I've made it okay, I'm gonna check social for work purposes or um, check it up on family.

Matt Johnson (19:44):
But I, most of my family doesn't even post anymore. We have our group chats and that's kind of, what's become the thing for us to like keep in touch with each other. So if I have a photo of ultrasound or whatever, I don't need to post that on Instagram right away. I just send it over to my group, my family group chat, and I hear all their thoughts and there's only ones I even care about. So, um, yeah, it's definitely weird cuz like the last couple episodes we've talked about how important it is for you to be on social. Um, but yeah, I think it is important to be on social, but you also need to have that balance where social media is not taking over your life. And if you're starting to see it affect it mentally affect you. Like you, you should do something about that. Mm-hmm and you and I were talking yesterday about all the studies that have come out about the effects of social media on the brain, watch the social dilemma on Netflix. Like we don't know, well, we're starting to see the ramifications of social media and we need to have clear boundaries with it. I think personally.

Nick Clason (20:42):
Yeah. I, you know, as a youth pastor we'll post a lot of stuff on social media or whatever, and then like I'll have a mom or dad or whoever a parent say, you know, Hey, our kids don't have social media and I will literally respond with that is great. And I fully support that decision. Exactly. Honestly, I do. Like if, if be, so I feel like being on social media is an opportunity to try and reach a certain demographic of kid. Who's probably not doing anything, um, useful or good with their time on social media and if they have poor boundaries and they're just on it all the time, like then I want us to, to be a part of their feed and part of their algorithm. And so that there is some, some Jesus in there. Right. But otherwise if a parent is parenting in that sort of way, like I support it fully.

Nick Clason (21:29):
And quite frankly, as a dad of a six and a half year old, like I can't imagine giving him social media here in more years or, or 10 or whatever, you know, whatever that's gonna be like. And so I, I think it's, yeah, it feels very like double edged sword. So it's, we're, we're producing things for social media. We're producing things for digital content, but we're not, um, necessarily personally engaging in those things. Mm-hmm , you know, um, ourselves and yeah, I, I agree with you. Like there's been times where, um, I, I feel very, uh, full of anxiety or I'm really like, I notice myself being really short, like with my kids, I have a really short, uh, like just patience level with them. And oftentimes that's a direct correlation to just the amount of time I'm spending on my phone or the amount of time that I'm, you know, worrying about whatever sort of thing I'm and that's, you know, especially in the last couple years, like, uh, at work and stuff, I'll people will talk to me about news, like news things. And I literally am like, oh wait, what's happening. Like I don't watch the news. Like it is not, is not good for my mental health. Just tell me what I need to know and what lit was actually affecting me and the rest. I'm gonna try to not think about cuz that's again, the, the, I think the brain was not meant to process the amount of information that we as Americans have access to on a daily basis basis.

Matt Johnson (22:55):
No, it definitely wasn't. I mean, you just look at the history of the human brain and you see like, this is the only time in culture where we've really ever had to deal with this. So, and why is anxiety, depression and everything so high right now? I mean, it's not all cause of social media, but definitely that's a contributing factor to it. So cause I felt it, you know, I feel it, I get more depressed and anxious like you were saying, so

Nick Clason (23:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, alright, sweet. So, um, alright. So my next one is, uh, it's gonna feel like a little bit of a, a Zig to the zag of this rest conversation uh, but I, uh, gosh, it's been about a year, year and a half or so. Um, but I have made, um, mornings, uh, getting up in the morning with coffee, going, uh, to read my Bible a priority and it's been a thing I've basically not missed for about a year. So I used to, you know, I have, I have young kids, uh, six and four. And so, um, you know, a year ago, year and a half ago when I started there five and three or two or whatever. And uh, I would used to just sleep in, um, until they came and woke me up, which so that there was no sleeping in all right.

Nick Clason (24:09):
But there was a, they were pretty, pretty good. Uh, we have this little like clock thing that turns green when they're allowed to get outta bed. And so that's set for seven. And so they're pretty good about following that. And so I would, I used to lay in bed and sometime after seven they'd come in with their little clock that was green and they'd say, Hey, our clock's green, you know, we get up and I would always feel like I was just running, be behind. Like I was, I'd always just felt like I, uh, was catching up to the rest of my day, the rest of my morning. And so kind of around that, whatever, whatever time, like a year ago or so I was like, I'm gonna get up at six every morning cuz I knew that they're probably gonna get up around seven.

Nick Clason (24:47):
And uh, the way I did it is we have like, uh, uh, Amazon Alexa app, uh, like all of our lights. Uh, so like I have my lights automatically turn on at six down in the dining room and every night before I go to bed, now I program coffee. And so as soon as I wake up, I literally smell coffee and see the lights. Um, those things just helped me get out of bed. the idea of setting an alarm and then getting up and then going down and doing all that stuff. Mm-hmm um, it, it, I just would, at that time I would just mentally cash it in and say whatever I'm asleep in, I'll do it again. I'll do it tomorrow. And so like those few hacks have helped me get up. Um, and then what I do is I get up, I drink coffee and I spend time reading my Bible and that has been one of the most centering and grounding things for me.

Nick Clason (25:37):
And, uh, I was doing it by myself and then a couple months later my wife actually joined me. Um, and so it's been a thing that we'll we'll do together. We'll just both get up. Coffee's going, we each have a cup. We're sitting, uh, at the dining room table, she's reading her Bible, I'm reading my Bible. Um, and we are just connecting ourselves, centering ourselves to our source. Mm-hmm and it's less sleep. Yes, because I'm waking up an hour early. So on the like immediate need of rest, it may feel like it's, it's less right. But as a discipline, now that's woven in to what I do. Um, other things have adjusted to accommodate this because I know how important it is. And so for example, we don't stay up as late because we know we're gonna get up at six, uh, to read our Bible and to drink coffee.

Nick Clason (26:26):
And so maybe we're not watching that next episode when we end one on Netflix instead we'll turn the TV off and you say, all right, what? It's probably time to go to bed, you know, so we can get up. But that has been an absolute game changer for me, uh, just in, in my personal rhythms. And um, if I start my day, that way with a little bit of it's a slower pace, uh, without the kids, um, waking me up outta bed, uh, then, then when they do come outta their rooms and everything like that, I feel like I've done what I need to do. Um, and I'm able to, uh, go after whatever I need to go after that day. Um, as it pertains to work, rest, social media, all those types of things. Like all those things can happen now because my time with Jesus has already taken place. Mm-hmm so that's been a game changer for me develop

Matt Johnson (27:14):
That. I, uh, yep. I do. I do the same thing. So, uh, wake up early and I love reading my Bible in the morning, um, before or after my workout. So

Nick Clason (27:26):
Yeah. Yeah, it's good. And like I said, uh, you know, I, I, I knew myself and so know yourself. Like I knew I needed some prompting to get out bed. And so that's why I learned how to use the programmer on my coffee maker. Um, and I, I recently started roasting my own coffee. And so I, my, the coffee I make at my house is actually my, my, my favorite coffee, you know, there's a really good roaster down the street that a lot of people here like, and I like it too, but I, I think my coffee's better. I think your coffee's better. What

Matt Johnson (27:58):
I'm literally

Nick Clason (28:00):
Well, what I'm literally drinking right now, I roasted at like five 30 last night in my garage. So like, it can't, it cannot get fresh. Exactly. You know? And so there's really, you know, that's maybe another podcast topic, all do

Matt Johnson (28:13):
A coffee roasting podcast.

Nick Clason (28:15):
I love that job. Also people out there it's really easy and it's actually quite cost effective. Very, so, uh, there you go. All right, Matt, your last one, what do you got? So

Matt Johnson (28:26):
My next, my last one, um, this is something that you, I think everyone should be doing is we gotta take care of ourselves physically in some aspect. Um, yeah.

Nick Clason (28:36):
Yeah.

Matt Johnson (28:37):
I, uh, I'm, I love running. Running's a great time for me to, uh, you know, really process and rest and get my endorphins up and think, and also take care of my heart and my body. And it's also, I've noticed as I've worked in ministry, like every year I gain a little bit more weight because, you know, they just get a little crazy. And also as you know, these churches and ministries, they love the things that are bad for you like donuts and, uh, um, as much junk food as they can get chips, mountain do, especially being a youth pastor, all the stuff you deal with, it's really easy to kind of lose sight of your, uh, physical health. But, uh, honestly my favorite thing to do is to swim. Um, I'm a big swimmer. I was a swim in my, with, uh, in high school, very competitively went to, uh, state and stuff.

Matt Johnson (29:27):
So, um, met my wife's swimming. It's like a really big thing in our lives. And, uh, what I love about swimming is waking up at, you know, um, usually very early, like 5:00 AM. going to the pool and it's just, it's like dark out and I'm just in the water, me and my thoughts. Um, mm-hmm and so it's kind of a time of meditation. I'm, you know, weightless, I'm able to really work out, control your breathing cause you have to in swimming, it's this very, um, cathartic thing for me that I've, uh, really grown to love. And it is honestly probably the hardest thing to wake up to. Cause there's nothing like waking up and being cold outside and going. I'm gonna go get in a 72 degree pool and uh, swim for an hour. And, uh, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest. It's been a little bit harder to keep my swimming hobby here in Chicago, because there's just not a lot of pools here, really,

Nick Clason (30:28):
Dude, I know, trust me. So,

Matt Johnson (30:30):
And I'm coming from a world, like when I lived in Colorado where every recreation center had a pool, cuz the pool swimming was just a huge, um, pastime there. So it's been very hard to keep that up here. That's why running has become more of my zeitgeist, but like swimming is that thing where, cuz you can't really have headphones swimming. You can't, you, I mean you have to be in your thoughts, which, um, it's just a weird time, but it's also a time that I've talked to God more than any time in my life is when I swim. So

Nick Clason (31:01):
yeah, it's good. Yeah. Since, you know, like when we moved here, it was middle of pandemic and so like, uh, we canceled our gym membership in Ohio from when we moved and I didn't pick one back up when I got here, obviously cuz there's a pandemic going on and gyms weren't even a thing. And so, uh, I took up running just to get out of the house and I never thought I'd be a runner, but you know, um, I am now and I look forward to it and I enjoy it. And in a lot of the same ways, it's kind of that just cathartic experience for me. Um, a great place to be alone with my thoughts or even just on a podcast and back to your hobby point. Like there are, I listen to a lot of ministry podcasts and so those are in there for sure.

Nick Clason (31:48):
But uh, the ones I most look forward to our, the entertainment ones, ones about sports, basketball, fantasy football, all those types of things. And so that's my, that's my attempt to disconnect, you know, a little bit. And so I agree like man exercise that there's such a, I don't know what I, I think like the landscape is shifting a little bit, like I think millennials and gen Z are, are pushing these things. But I think that there's some, there's been some notions of older generations that are like, oh, I don't have time to do that. Like I just, I need to focus on my work and um, that's just, that's super,

Matt Johnson (32:20):
Very, somewhat healthy.

Nick Clason (32:24):
And, and you like in all of this, right, this entire conversation is woven into like you, you need to be the best version of you to be the most effective at leading some of stuff. And if you're not, you're you're not gonna be very effective. Mm-hmm so find whatever that thing is. And you know, like you, my wife will say like, you know, she's like, she'll struggle to like find time to do it. And I'm like, you, you can't afford not to a little bit, you know, like you gotta, you gotta figure it out. You gotta make it a priority. And so it's, you know, cuz we got kids and so someone's gotta stay with them. And so, you know, I'm like, Hey, like I know this is important for you to do so let me, uh, you know, let's, let's figure it out so that you can have what you need. I can have what I need, all that type of stuff.

Matt Johnson (33:04):
So exactly.

Nick Clason (33:05):
Yeah. All right. Love it. Last one for me then is, uh, this one's work related. Um, but use all of your vacation time that your work gives you.

Nick Clason (33:17):
Like don't leave any on the table. I, there are people who like don't use it all and I, what are you doing that is li PTO stands for paid time off your, your job is telling you that we will pay you. If you take this time off, you have earned this. This is a part of our agreement that we've made with you. You can work here and we will still allow you your paycheck and your salary. If you, uh, take this amount of time off mm-hmm so don't leave any PTO on the table. Like that is a bad, bad strategy. , uh, use it all. And you know, there like our, our, our work lets you like roll some like a, a week's a week's worth into the next year. Um, I never have that to do. Like I literally never have any to roll.

Nick Clason (34:12):
I burn all of it. It is gone. I use it early. I use it often. Like it is, uh, it's it's one of my strategies to staying, uh, you know it, my, I don't know. It's just, for me, life is more than just a job and life is more than just work. And so, uh, use all of your PTO. That is a great way to stay fresh, stay healthy, do the things that are important to you, do the things that matter to you. And even if you're, you know, if you're listening to this and you're in ministry, odds are, you probably are thinking like, okay, but I don't have a lot of money to go on vacation. Then don't go on vacation, just stay home and do fun stuff with your family and your kids. But like, don't like, just because you can't go anywhere else doesn't mean that you should then default into going to work. Like the place will not burn down if you're not there. Yeah. So

Matt Johnson (35:02):
Exactly. And um, my favorite thing is it's kind of a badge of honor with the, uh, lot of older gen the older generation that I know is like, yeah, I have this much PTO. I haven't used my old vice president on marketing. My old job used to have every year he would roll over like 120 hours of PTO. And finally I got to the point where I would tell him, like, you need to take PTO, don't check on me. Like just go on vacation. He was his vacation. So, um, he started doing that and he would take two weeks off a year to just do some carpentry stuff, cuz that was his favorite hobby and it was super healthy for him. So, um, but he hadn't done that, you know, for like 15 years at the company. So take your PTO. I totally agree.

Nick Clason (35:43):
You look, you literally, I mean there are literal studies out there I should have, I should have had 'em to cite 'em a little bit more, but you are not good if you don't have margin baked into your life, like you, your body and your brain need those things to make you more creative. Yep. And it's, you know, in some of those spaces and in some of those margins where your brain will be able to connect some of those dots, you can't just, you can't just hard charge and be eight hours or 12 hours a day with, with no space, you know? Yeah. Some of the, I, I, I dunno if you've ever heard of this map, but uh, I think like Winston Churchill, um, he would take like a nap every single day and he is like one of the most, you know, successful, uh, leaders that we've known in our world.

Nick Clason (36:28):
And he did that because he knew it was good for his brain. Good for that rhythm of rest. And it made him a better leader. Exactly. So, yep. Yeah. So cool. All right guys. Well that is it for today. Uh, just some hacks, some thoughts. Um, again, like we said, your ministry will not be successful if you are not personally healthy a hundred percent. So be personally healthy, put the guardrails, the things that you need into place, um, figure out your rhythms, your hobbies, and the things that, um, work for you and are important to you. And, uh, don't, don't burn out because your church and the world and, uh, people, they, they need what you have to offer and so take care of yourself and uh, those other things will, uh, will be there when you come back. I promise any last parting thoughts.

Matt Johnson (37:21):
I have one thing that I wanted to talk about real quick, about last week's episode that you and I talked about as a correction, uh, we had talked about the TikTok water mark, and I wanted to correct everyone, myself, especially cause you and I talked. And it's something that changed very quickly is if you had that TikTok water, mark Instagram is going to suppress you now. So mm-hmm I wanted to just tell everyone don't do that. We'll have more tips in an upcoming episode about that. but just wanted to get on the record as quick as possible. Hey, we messed up there. Um, pull that. Don't put the water mark on Instagram, so

Nick Clason (38:00):
Yep. That's my fucked box. Yeah. Well, and, and if you listen closely, I was trying to disagree with Matt amicably, uh, live last

Matt Johnson (38:07):
Week. So, and we get into like, I read that article forever ago and I sent it to you and then I changed the article and I hadn't read it and I didn't do my due diligence there. So a lot of good lessons in it, but yep.

Nick Clason (38:19):
Well, and that just goes to show just how quick everything changes. So what, what works today at, you know, quote, unquote time of this recording? Like may not even still be treated yeah. Watch

Matt Johnson (38:28):
Next week the watermark is boosted. So let's just say, who knows?

Nick Clason (38:34):
Yeah. That's why all this is very in lifetime, very important. Like this is, you know, trends now, but especially with social media, I mean, they're always changing their algorithms and uh, you're, you're on borrowed space with them. So you have to play a little bit by their rules. Exactly.

Matt Johnson (38:48):
Yep. So I just wanted to give that correction real quick before we think goodbye to the audience. So.

Nick Clason (38:54):
Cool. All right guys. Appreciate it. Hey, follow us on Twitter. http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry we are online, at http://www.hybridministry.xyz and, uh, give us a subscribe, maybe a rating. That'd be incredible. I share this with a friend and we will talk to you guys next day.