https://hybrid-ministry-40060036.hubspotpagebuilder.com/free-hybrid-ministry-e-book

2024 Youth Ministry [on-demand] Masterclass
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLngXlSr64YaLIJceFHg7w8vxlx5ARqXeg

Carey's 2024 Church Trends Article
https://careynieuwhof.com/future-church-trends/
======================================
DESCRIPTION
🔥 Carey Niuwhof has recently been dropping some hot takes on the future of the church.
👓 In this episode, Nick reacts from a Hybrid Ministry and Youth Ministry perspective!
🎱 Number 8 is crazy!

Carey's 2024 Church Trends Article
https://careynieuwhof.com/future-church-trends/
======================================
📓SHOWNOTES
//SHOWNOTES & TRANSCRIPTS
http://www.hybridministry.xyz/086

//YOUTUBE VIDEO
https://youtu.be/KptS3NoiC6c

//2024 CHURCH TRENDS ARTICLE
https://careynieuwhof.com/future-church-trends/

//FREE EBOOK STRATEGY GUIDE
https://hybrid-ministry-40060036.hubspotpagebuilder.com/free-hybrid-ministry-e-book

STOP IGNORING SOCIAL MEDIA
//https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slB0Rmf_X0c&t=390s

YOUTUBE GEAR FOR UNDER $100
//https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/youtubestarterkit

HYBRID STRATEGY EXPLAINED
//https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDxepdu4iiM

STOP DOING THIS ON SOCIAL MEDIA
//https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slB0Rmf_X0c&t=390s

BETTER CHURCH ANNOUNCEMENTS

//https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzhYluEKZ_I&list=PLngXlSr64YaKYLaGvuPA5pBYfJflXm0-A&index=43

👉 STAY CONNECTED WITH NICK
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@clasonnick
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hybridministry/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HybridMinistry
Website: https://www.hybridministry.xyz

======================================

🆓 FREEBIES 🆓
📅 "The Full Hybrid Ministry Strategy"
https://hybrid-ministry-40060036.hubspotpagebuilder.com/free-hybrid-ministry-e-book

🖥️ "My 9 Favorite DYM Resources"
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/dym

🎅 "The Ultimate (and FREE!) Christmas Party Gude"
GUIDE: https://hybrid-ministry-40060036.hubspotpagebuilder.com/christmas-party-run-sheet
PRACTICAL YM TIPS: https://www.youtube.com/@practicalyouthministrytips

🍩 "FREE World's Greatest Donut Event Guide"
GUIDE: https://hybrid-ministry-40060036.hubspotpagebuilder.com/worlds-greatest-donut

😨 "Have I already Ruined my TikTok Account?"
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook

📹 "Adobe Premiere Pro Presets for Animating Layers"
https://share.hsforms.com/1VL1oWwWwQ82PLwsPFkPITgnumis

======================================
🛠️TOOLS
Some of the below links are affilate links in which we do recieve a small commission based on your purchase or use of products

//BEST DYM RESOURCES
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/dym

OPUS.PRO FOR AI SHORTS & REELS
https://www.opus.pro/?via=a5d361

//YOUTUBE STARTER KIT FOR UNDER $100
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/youtubestarterkit

AUTO POD
https://autopod.lemonsqueezy.com?aff=MX7Vv

TRY REV.COM FOR TRANSCRIBING
https://rev.pxf.io/R5nDOa

--------------
🕰️TIMECODES
00:00 Carey Nieuwhof's 2024 Church Trends Article
00:41 The Boomer Decline is a BIG Deal
04:48 Gen Z is Spiritually Open
06:27 Lean Further into Hybrid, Like Taylor Swift?
08:03 Don't Give up with Online Church Ministry!
09:14 The Weekend Sermon is less important
10:49 Content Curation Matters!
12:00 Volunteerism isn't going to get better
13:30 Pastoral Burnout is on the decline!

--------------
✍️TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:25
Nick Clason
The future of the church, the Capital C church. Not just my church, not just your church. It's going to look very different in 2024. And frankly, beyond because of Generation Z and now Generation Alpha, both waving up Z into the adult ministry conversation Alpha into the youth ministry conversation. It makes me wonder if the future is already here.

00:00:23:27 - 00:00:45:20
Nick Clason
I think it might be Carey Nieuwhof has been spittin’ an absolute fire recently talking about church trends. And so what I wanted to do is I wanted to take his article Church Trends from 2024 things You Need to Know. Link down below on description and talk about it. And so let's jump in. Waste no time. Trend number one is that the Boomer church will decline and eventually disappear.

00:00:45:21 - 00:01:11:20
Nick Clason
This is just basic human psychology. You know, you get it right. But he said this. He said, Since 2020, the boomers have become the least likely demographic to return to church. That's out of post-COVID, 22% of them saying and saying that they've stopped attending church, get this entirely. Meanwhile, only 16% of millennials have stopped attending. So that's the smallest of the demographics and I love if you would, give me a subscribe.

00:01:11:21 - 00:01:29:13
Nick Clason
If you're a millennial, like if you're a Gen Xer and hey, hit the bill no matter what age demographic you are, because we are going to be dropping all kinds of new stuff. I got a new playlist already in the hopper. We just wrapped up the 2024 Youth Ministry on-demand Masterclass and now I got one coming at you next week excited for it!

00:01:29:13 - 00:01:56:26
Nick Clason
And if you're on YouTube, you get it early, you get it on Wednesday instead of Thursday in the regular podcast feed. But Nieuwhof goes on to say that 54% of millennials actually attended primarily in-person. 65% of boomers say that they only attend in-person. And so that is a that's going to be key coming down the pike here in a minute as we look at this trend's article about the difference between the hybrid space in the in-person space.

00:01:56:27 - 00:02:17:25
Nick Clason
Right. Unlike boomers, millennials, they they don't just track with church while they're in the building. Millennials and Xers, honestly, are quite comfortable with the idea of hybrid church. This is Nieuwhof’s blog. And guess what? He has no idea that this podcast exists. But the fact of the matter is he sees it just like I feel like I have been seeing.

00:02:17:25 - 00:02:37:10
Nick Clason
And I'm not trying to be like I'm as smart as Carey Nieuwhof by no means at all. But the dude is is calling it right? He says. So boomers for the most part, they've not embraced hybrid church. If you watching on YouTube if not, go ahead to hybridministry.xyz/086 for the show notes. But this graph is going to be on screen.

00:02:37:10 - 00:03:04:15
Nick Clason
Just click the YouTube link. If you do go to your podcast catcher and scrub forward to this part in the episode, but says since the COVID 19 pandemic, which of the following most accurately describes your church attendance either online or in-person? This is the percentage of Christians who are attending church pre COVID 19. And so you'll see that like the highest gap right there have stopped attending is actually boomers, which is what most of our churches were built for.

00:03:04:18 - 00:03:34:16
Nick Clason
And a large, large majority of of millennials you'll see and Xers have been attending the same church that they attended pre COVID. And so there are three kind of main areas of impact with this point. The first one is attendance. Right? And one idea that I have in light of that is stop ignoring social media. Our attendance is going to take on a different kind of approach.

00:03:34:18 - 00:04:00:02
Nick Clason
Millennials and Xers and Gen Z are going to attend church less and less frequently. It doesn't mean they're less committed to your church. It just means they're less committed to being there on a week to week basis. We live in a different world. And so if you as a youth pastor in particular are ignoring social media or only using social media as an avenue or an outlet to post announcements, you're missing out on an incredible opportunity.

00:04:00:07 - 00:04:30:00
Nick Clason
I think about it in my own space. I have teenagers who have weekend soccer tournaments and baseball tournaments and things that keep them out on the weekend. It doesn't mean that they're not committed or that they're less committed to our church. It just simply means that they have other obligations. And I know I've worked at churches and on church staff that say they're not as committed, but if we go hybrid and if we find a way to meet them where they are, which is really what this is all about, they can still consume the things of God.

00:04:30:00 - 00:04:50:13
Nick Clason
They can still follow him, they can still be connected and attached to our church. You look at this graph here on the screen, Weekly Church attendance by generation millennials are actually the highest out of the pandemic, post-COVID. So attendance is area number one that this is going to impact. It's also going to impact volunteering and thirdly, it's going to impact giving.

00:04:50:18 - 00:05:17:17
Nick Clason
Carey Nieuwhof goes on to say that open pastors will actually be more well-positioned to reach an open generation. Speaking of and talking about Generation Z, Gen Z, statistically speaking, is actually the most spiritually open generation that we've ever actually seen in our history. Right. And if you check out the YouTube, the YouTube feed here, you'll see that the spiritual journey of Gen Z, you'll see that they're open.

00:05:17:23 - 00:05:42:09
Nick Clason
They're much more open to things of God and faith. They believe that there's supernatural or spiritual side to life, 61% compared to 51% of all adults. They've gone through a prolonged they've gone through a prolonged period of time where they've significantly doubted their faith. 65% to 49%, 56% say my experiences have led me to deconstruct or take apart my faith of my youth 56% versus 47%.

00:05:42:09 - 00:06:04:18
Nick Clason
I'm disillusioned by my experience in the Christian church 48 to 43%. But I love this line that he has in the blog he says, “A spiritually open generation is a reachable generation. So what are you doing to reach this generation? This this generation is laying the groundwork for Gen Alpha, which is right behind them, youth pastors, Gen Alpha, they're in your youth ministry right now.

00:06:04:18 - 00:06:27:03
Nick Clason
The oldest ones of them are are some of the youngest kids in your youth ministry. So like I said, youth pastors go hybrid. Check out my e-book link down description. I'll give you a step by step guide to not only posting on social media, but then also posting your YouTube messages and using that as your bedrock so that everything builds on top of that, which is actually why this next trend.

00:06:27:04 - 00:06:48:09
Nick Clason
Right. I obviously believe this next trend is completely spot on because it says this the line between digital and in-person will blur even more. And he says, take a note from Taylor Swift yet check this out. Is it Taylor Swift is actually a prime example of this. In particular, she's modeling how to have a strong digital presence and drive an intense in-person demand.

00:06:48:12 - 00:07:16:13
Nick Clason
Her midnight album released in October of 2022. You can see this graph on the screen. It's absolutely crazy. You will not believe what you're seeing It says. And not only broke streaming records on Spotify, but it simultaneously locked up every position on the Billboard Top ten, and they sold 500,000 physical vinyl albums in a single week, often times there's an argument against a hybrid strategy in favor of the in-person experience, like they can't go together.

00:07:16:13 - 00:07:46:21
Nick Clason
And and that's the thing that is actually the hybrid. I'm like, no, that's that's not just digital. That's both that's online and that's in-person and that's putting them together. And pastors look at the graph. Her in-person ticket sales skyrocketed and went through the roof. So if you can capture the magic of a digital and strong online presence, you can actually bring that into fruition in your in-person experience.

00:07:46:27 - 00:08:08:28
Nick Clason
And on the converse of that or the inverse of one of those two, the flip side of that, let's go with that. The flip side of that is that once people are attached, you're connected to your church. You can continue to show up in their life throughout the rest of the week, giving them discipleship resources, Bible study tools and things that will help them grow in their faith and nurture their walk with God.

00:08:09:00 - 00:08:35:17
Nick Clason
Number four Nieuwhof says that churches that embrace online ministry will start seeing results. You may be out there and being like I've been trying to do. I'm not seeing the results. I'm getting frustrated, I'm getting tired. But like I said, we can help, right? I get it. The resources aren't there and and they're likely there for the rest of the church that they're not there, especially for youth ministries, which is why I down in the description below, I have YouTube gear for under $100.

00:08:35:23 - 00:08:58:03
Nick Clason
And this video right here will detail an outline, all of it and how you can use it and make it happen. But Kerry said that according to Lifeway Research, before the pandemic, only 27% of churches offered any live streaming. That's essentially one out of four. However, since that live streaming of services and now post pandemic, 92% of churches now live stream their services.

00:08:58:03 - 00:09:18:21
Nick Clason
And so as the world has reopened, the surprising things and number of those churches that were up at the 92%, they've actually throttled back their online services, hoping to to drive in-person attendance as if they're competing with one another. And so not only is that a bad strategy and you have said he says it's also incredibly shortsighted. Stick with it.

00:09:18:22 - 00:09:44:27
Nick Clason
You're going to see the results. Number five, he says the purpose of the weekend sermon will shift from being an attraction to an anchor. Listen, stop doing this on social media, which is linked down in the description part of the 2024 Youth Ministry OnDemand Masterclass playlist. I just wrapped up last week in the last video. But but stop doing these things right.

00:09:44:29 - 00:10:06:19
Nick Clason
Stop saying on social media. Join us for our new series on Sunday at nine and 11. Don't miss last Sunday's message available online on demand. I can't wait to share your brand new message with you. That's what Nieuwhof is saying that's not attraction A lot of times we as pastors and listen, I get it, Pastor, like you've spent time on this sermon.

00:10:06:20 - 00:10:25:10
Nick Clason
You care about these people and you care and you want them to hear what you have to say. But that's a very on onto me or I'm sorry, that's a very cable TV strategy. That's a very like, hey, you can only hear this thing at nine and 11. And the fact is that we don't live in a cable TV society anymore.

00:10:25:10 - 00:10:54:09
Nick Clason
You probably even watch cable TV anymore. The only appointment television that I even have anymore is like live sports. Otherwise everything else is streaming. And so I think it's much better start thinking about the real reasons why people come to church, because there are still reasons why people come to church and come to in-person church. Things like community, things like kids and student ministry, things like connection and an experience that doesn't always translate to online.

00:10:54:09 - 00:11:24:19
Nick Clason
This all from Nieuwhof’s blog Number six. He says content curation will now start to matter as much as content creation. He said the push to online and the changing place of sermons in today's world can leave pastors feeling an unsustainable pressure to produce a nonstop flow of spiritual content. And so, as more and more passages are discovering every year, it's almost impossible to produce top tier messages week to week to compete with some of the best that is out and available on the Internet.

00:11:24:22 - 00:11:42:02
Nick Clason
It's not any pressure, right? This was not a pressure from any previous generations. The things that pastors dealt with honestly can feel like an unsustainable pressure. And so one of the things he says is, he says, flip it from content creation to consider curating like how can you gather some of the best sources and then help point and show your people?

00:11:42:02 - 00:11:59:28
Nick Clason
I mean, even I'm thinking about this weekend, we're doing a a workshop for some of our teenagers on how to study the Bible. And if they get on Google, they can find all kinds of different resources. But how do they know if they're reputable or not? Right? So we give them a list. Here are five resources that we know that we trust and that we say, Hey, you can use, right?

00:12:00:05 - 00:12:25:26
Nick Clason
That's a great example of a way that you can curate the entire World Wide Web and then package it and bring it to your people. Number seven, not to depress anyone Nieuwhof says the volunteer crisis will move from acute to chronic. He had three reasons for it. Number one, first, the return to church meant different people returned to church and much slower than I think we all expected.

00:12:25:29 - 00:12:45:19
Nick Clason
Number two, more significantly, as trend number one outlined at the beginning of the article, boomers are aging out and are the least likely group to return to church. This makes the volunteer backbone of most churches, a nonprofit organizations less robust than it used to be. And that's only going to get more challenging, especially as boomers continue to age and ultimately age out.

00:12:45:22 - 00:13:08:11
Nick Clason
And third, and finally, the next generation, primarily millennials and Generation Z, they attend church less and left less often, like I said earlier, making it less frequent thing, meaning they have more options on the weekends so it gets harder for them to commit. So we need to be thinking about as pastors, not only like understanding and realizing there is a volunteer crisis and there is a volunteer problem.

00:13:08:13 - 00:13:31:14
Nick Clason
How can you shift? We actually talked about it in a video linked down blown description, but we've actually talked about how can you shift your volunteer pitch from we need you to we want to come alongside and support you. We want you to to flourish here. We want to watch you experience incredible depth and purpose and live a life on mission.

00:13:31:14 - 00:13:54:26
Nick Clason
And we believe as a church, we can help facilitate that for you. It's really not that big of a shift. Number eight Pastoral. Pastoral burnout will stabilize as pastors embrace their new church. Listen, if you're a pastor here on this podcast, this is good news because you've seen that over the last several years, pastors have had a high risk for burnout.

00:13:54:26 - 00:14:22:10
Nick Clason
But there's hope. You're doing a great job. And as this graph highlights, it's starting to stabilize. It's starting to normalize. The newness of all the things from 2020 and beyond is starting to kind of chill out. And there's hope. You're you can do it right there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You know, one of the keys that I have personally found in stabilizing my burnout and making me feel more enticed about continuing on in my job is increasing my time management load, which is actually linked right here on the screen.

00:14:22:10 - 00:14:41:19
Nick Clason
If you want to check that video, go ahead and do that. But we're so glad that you checked out this this podcast and this episode. Thank you, Carrie, for this amazing article. It is spot on because I believe that we need to make digital discipleship not only easy but possible and inaccessible. And so, as always, don't forget stay hybrid.

Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
Follow Nick on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Full Episode ShowNotes & Transcripts: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/042
FREE e-book: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook

SHOWNOTES
In this episode, Nick talked about multiple brands, podcasts and areas in which he's learned things online, for a complete list see below:
YOUTUBE TRENDS EPISODE:
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/032

https://www.youtube.com/trends/report/
https://prochurchtools.com/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fantasy-focus-football/id260537420
https://podcast.downloadyouthministry.com/
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/down-to-dunk-okc-thunder-podcast/id599740073
https://www.strandedpanda.com/mcucast
https://theologyintheraw.com/
https://www.sonlife.com/
https://www.ramseysolutions.com/

BIBLE VERSES MENTIONED:
Hebrews 10:24-25 ESV
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Colossians 3:16 ESV
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

1 Corinthians 14:26 ESV
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

Matthew 12:30 ESV
Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

1 Thessalonians 5:11 ESV
Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

TIMECODES
00:00-02:53 Intro
02:53-11:20 Areas in my life I've exclusively learned something online
11:20-15:10 What is a SuperFan?
15:10-20:40 Should we create SuperFans in Faith?
20:40-28:13 What does the Bible say about relationships?
28:13-31:45 3 raw and unfiltered ideas for Churches to lean into Hybrid in 2023
31:45-32:59 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hello there everybody. Welcome back to another episode and edition of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be along with you on the journey. A few are on YouTube. Hello to everyone there on YouTube. If you just got this blared in your ear holes, hello to everyone there. And hey, if you're on YouTube, you didn't know we were a podcast. We are. If you are on, uh, listening in your ear holes, you didn't know we're on YouTube, we are. So check both of the show notes or check the only show notes for both of those links. http://www.Hybridministry.xyz is all the needs and all the stops and all the places and all the things that you need for this podcast. If you're on YouTube, hit the link show notes and I'll take you there, including transcripts, which we offer for free every single episode.

Nick Clason (00:54):
In this episode, we are going to be discussing and talking about areas in life in which I have learned, discovered a skill, become proficient 100% completely through online mediums. It may be a little bit controversial, but I just want to explore some other avenues and facets and areas of life beyond just a church in which I have lived into this hybrid experience in this hybrid moment. So make sure that you stick around for that and all the way for to the end, because at the end that's where I'm going to talk about three different church ideas and musings and thoughts that I have in ways that we can lean into this and engage in this just a little bit more, um, realistically and also maybe a little bit more robustly as a church start thinking hybrid a little bit more frequently. But before we do, like I said, uh, subscribe on YouTube, hit that uh, bell button so that you know when we post a video, be sure that you subscribe in your podcast catcher so that every single Thursday one of these episodes will just automatically download for you for free.

Nick Clason (02:03):
And finally, one thing that you can do for us that's free, but is an incredible, incredible way to give back is to just simply give us a quick rating or review. Open your purple podcast app on your iPhone and let us know, hey, love this show that will help us get the word out more and more about this idea of hybrid ministry. Not because we're trying to go big and go viral, but because we want to help share and spread the hope and message of Jesus through the means and channels in which God has given to us. So that would be an incredible way for you to just help us give back. And without any further chatting, without any further discussion, let's dive in to some different areas in which I and people I know have been discipled completely online. All right, so let's talk about this idea of learning something 100 and completely online.

Nick Clason (03:02):
So real quick, the definition of a disciple, just a real quick Google search elicits me this response. A follower, someone who is adherent, a disciple, a partisan mean one means one who gives full loyalty and support to another follower may apply to people who attach to a certain person mission or method. So obviously that's gonna have some religious undertones and some religious connotations. But I was listening to a podcast the other day, shout out to my one of my favorite people, Brady Sheer, Alexander Mills, those guys over at Pro Churchill's podcast. Amazing. We'll drop the link in the show notes. By the way, there are gonna be a lot of links to just things that I like in my life in this episode because I'm what I'm talking about, I'm talking about my life, I'm talking about areas and things that I'm into that I've learned from.

Nick Clason (03:48):
And so hit the link in the show notes. If anything I say sounds interesting to you, I'll try to include it there in the show notes. But I was talk, I was listening, I wasn't talking to them. I was listening to them talk to each other about areas in life in which they have been completely discipled in a certain area, skill, facet or discipline. And it got me to thinking just that was how the title and the whole scope of this episode started. I was like, Hmm, what are areas that I've learned something completely 100% online. So I'm gonna show you two from me. And I also asked my wife last night, and I'm gonna share two from her. So for me, one area that I have exclusively learned online is the art and the area of fantasy football. Now, hear me out. Okay, if you're not into fantasy football, fantasy football is a very intricate sport.

Nick Clason (04:37):
It is literally drafting real life players. Typically for me, I'm, I'm big into, um, football, not like any other sport, baseball or basketball. So real life football players. But knowing how that plays out in the fantasy realm. So you have to learn things like, like drafting strategies. You have to learn things like ADPs or average draft position. You have to know who is going to be a high scorer or one that's well sought after. You need to know people who are maybe a little more under the radar, a little more, uh, names and nuances, uh, sleepers if you will. I know like I have learned a lot from fantasy football, for example, I'll talk to my dad now, um, who was the biggest football fan I knew growing up. But now I'll talk to him and I'll mention someone like Nick Westbrook at Kenai from the Tennessee Titans.

Nick Clason (05:27):
And he's like, who? Right now I know that name. Strictly and exclusively through fantasy football means and channels. He is just a casual football fan now at this point. And he, I mean, he plays fantasy football cuz I make him in one league that we're in together. But he doesn't know some of the deeper, more nuanced discussions and people. And I thought about it and the reason I got into fantasy football is, number one, I got asked to be a part of a fantasy football league with some friends who were, uh, know, like real life friends in person at the church or at college or something like that. But then in the years to come, I was a really terrible at fantasy football because I was like my dad. I grew up watching football with my dad. And so I drafted like my dad does, like, oh, that guy's good.

Nick Clason (06:14):
But then I started listening to podcasts. That was one of my major like avenues of learning. I found podcast, ESPN Fantasy Focused Football podcast, which had Matthew Berry on it for years, all the way up until last year. However, interestingly enough, he rotated off and I think went to NBC Sports and I still choose to follow the ESPN version, but I started listening to them and I got a lot better, a lot more skilled, and I've won some leagues now as a result of it. And I want to be clear, I'm not like bragging or saying I'm some amazing fantasy football player because I'm not, because it's all luck based, but I truly, ultimately really do enjoy it. And, uh, I feel a relationship with the people in the podcast on the other end that I listened to in my ear holes. I listened to 'em on runs.

Nick Clason (07:00):
I remember, uh, last year after the very first weekend of football, uh, the first thing I wanted to do was listen to their analysis of the first week. I wanted them to help me make sense of what just happened. And so that was something that I was like longing for, striving for. So that's one example. Another example for me is honestly the area of youth ministry. I remember how it started. I was in my office. I decided to clean it out and it was going to be a massive major overhaul change. And I was like, you know what? If I'm gonna do this, I should probably like do it while also listening to something. And that was actually how I started listening to podcasts. I discovered and stumbled upon the Download Youth Ministry podcast with heroes of mine in youth ministry, Doug Fields, Joshua Griffin. They've written books and they are the co-founders of Download Youth Ministry and many other kind of subsidiary ministries and stuff after that.

Nick Clason (07:53):
But honestly, I had never even really met the guys. And up to this point, I've only met them a handful of times at this point through just different conferences and events that I've gone to. But what happened was I started listening to there at that time they called it the D YM web show, short for download. Youth ministry helped me get better, uh, at youth ministry. But at the, I think the real thing that it helped do and and they even talk about it on the shows, it helped me as a solo youth pastor in a church of under 400 people. I, I, you know, I didn't have a team. I didn't work for a team. Like I had a pastor, like a senior pastor that was my boss and that was it. I didn't have like a youth team, anything like that. And so they were sort of like my youth team place to, to listen to ideas, to chop it up, to hear things.

Nick Clason (08:40):
They helped me think through some different nuances. They would talk about events that they would do, and then I would figure out how I could bring those and adapt them. And I truly attribute a lot of my just skill and development as a youth pastor professionally to them, to their podcast. Now, in both of my cases, fantasy Football and the Download Youth Ministry podcast, those happened through, uh, podcasts obviously, right? And uh, that's just, that is a means. That is a avenue. Okay? Um, similarly, I asked this question last night as I was preparing for this show to my wife. I was like, what are some areas in life that you have learned or become proficient at completely online? She gave two answers. Her answers were a couple years ago. She used to be a seller on Etsy. She would make decorative wooden signs and she would sell them.

Nick Clason (09:31):
And she did quite well at it. Actually. She quit her nursing job in an effort to be able to do that. But I remember she learned and discovered the idea and, um, practice best practices of things like search engine optimization on Etsy, how to create good and um, proper listings that are gonna help you get indexed well in search as well as thumbnails and how to do that and all those types of things. And she learned almost all of that through a Facebook group that she discovered that had, uh, just like an Etsy seller Facebook group of people kind of go back and forth, give tips, tricks of the trade. And then another area, um, in the last probably two years or so, she's gotten really into just nutrition, the power of food and how important food is. Food is fuel to your body. Um, and not like dieting per se to just like lose weight, but really like to pursue health, um, in how to do like swaps from the standard American diet, what to avoid, what things to know and look for.

Nick Clason (10:31):
And for her, she said the area, um, that she really found, uh, interesting, um, in to, to learn all of that was mostly through Instagram and following Instagram accounts. And so in those, for examples, so fantasy football, youth ministry, Etsy sellers, and then like the area of nutrition to me, to my wife, almost 100% of our knowledge, 100% of our, uh, development in those areas happened through online mediums and online channels. Now, don't turn it off, don't freak out. Let's expound upon this just a little bit more and let's bring in some of the church implications and some of the theological conclusions that we, uh, should wrestle with and come to. Now, I will also say, before we dive into some of the theological stuff, I will also say that this sort of idea, especially if you remember me talking about, um, in the last little segment about me wanting to hear the analysis from week one, that is a current YouTube trend.

Nick Clason (11:38):
I'll drop the link to the episode where I expanded upon the YouTube trends report from 2022 in the show notes. But that is a thing that people are, uh, eager for. So uhno, another area, probably the biggest that I am nerding out on in being a super fan is I am a Oklahoma City Thunder basketball fan. And I wanna listen to what the guys on down to Dunk have to say about just about every game, everything that happens, trades off season moves, like it'll happen and that'll be one thing. But then what I most look forward to is, again, the analysis that these guys have as experts in the field as people who talk about it a lot. Similarly, I'll also do that like over the weekend on Saturday, my wife and I went and saw Antman in the WASP quantum mania, and I immediately went and downloaded the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, Antman in the WASP Quantum Mania recap episode because I wanna hear all they have to say, I watched the movie, I like the movie, but they're gonna think deeper about it.

Nick Clason (12:41):
They're gonna have theories about it. And so that is like this idea of a super fan as someone who attaches to pop culture, but with people who have more analysis to it and in all of these things, right? Like there's something there that can be done in the church space. Now, I wanna get to that in a minute, but before we do, I want to chat through and just think through like in all these things. I learned a lot through podcasts. I learned a lot through y or podcasts and or long form YouTube accounts. My wife learned a lot through like Facebook groups or following Instagram accounts. Um, and neither one of us really honestly said anything about TikTok or short form video content. However, uh, both of the things that the question, right? Was what are areas in which you feel that you've become an expert in through something completely online.

Nick Clason (13:33):
And I don't, I think my reason for why that would be the case is that, um, most of the areas you become an expert in, it takes time and TikTok and Instagram reels, they just haven't been here for that long of time. But one thing that is interesting to note is that I think that what is, uh, what you discover online in Instagram reel, Instagram reels or TikTok short form video, sort of like formats is you discover new people and new pieces of content, it's harder in those mediums to create super fans. So I think those are there for discoverability. And then I think your goal is to get them to follow for more, to save for later or to get them to watch something longer or listen to something longer that you already produce. So you wanna like just get discovered, find something niche, and then have them, uh, come follow you somewhere else on.

Nick Clason (14:30):
Um, honestly, and unfortunately, so those platforms are massive and huge right now. However, I think that they are, they help create a, a pathway and a funnel step for those people to, to dive deeper. There are TikTok ERs, Instagram real people that I love to follow, um, when I see them pop up on my for you page, but not my, that's not how I engage with them. That's not how I engage with people. I get on there and I just start going on my for you page. And whatever the algorithm feeds me is what it feeds me. I'm not on there specifically looking or searching for a person or specific, uh, niche piece of content at that moment. I was thinking about this last night, but I don't have a personal relationship with any of the people that I have mentioned or that I have learned from in these areas.

Nick Clason (15:21):
I would love to, but it's honestly almost never realistic for a lot of different reasons. Maybe one, like the distance of where they live in physical proximity to where I live, or just simply the size and scope of their platform that, um, they, this is how they get their messaging out to the masses and the multitudes because they are so big and they are, they do have such a large scope. And so, uh, when I do find another fan, a person who also listens to this podcast, a person who also is following some certain Instagram account, in my wife's case, we have an immediate connection around our fandom or following of this particular thing. And so I wanted to think through why does scripture discipleship disciple making the Bible? Why doesn't it feel that that same way, like if I find someone who's another down to dunk fan, we're immediately vibing on that.

Nick Clason (16:23):
But when I find someone who's another Christian, do I immediately vibe with them? And I've never really thought about it, right? Because one is like pop culture and one is like faith. And those are two categorically different things. I get it. However, there are some similarities to it, like in this, like we are following like the same people over here in faith, we're following the same people, right? We're following Jesus of Nazareth, the guy who was discipled, uh, discipled people and then murdered for who he claimed to be, but then rose again three days later. And so I wonder like, is is faith, is Christianity not niche enough? Like is it too mainstream? Is it too much in the public eye? Uh, or is there too much diversity of opinion? Or is is it like you find someone but you don't like, I mean, I'll, I'll give you an example.

Nick Clason (17:20):
I'm kind of just workshopping this in my brain, but like I will find people who say they're Christians and I'm just immediately kinda like, I, I take a step back as opposed to a step in. And maybe it's because there's some spiritual element going on. Satan doesn't want me to connect or whatever. Or maybe I, I like personally I'm leery because I just don't know where they're coming from. And so instead of like assuming things or whatever, I just kind of like nod and smile and keep going. Maybe that's just what's baked into our culture, right? You don't talk about finances, you don't talk about religion and you don't talk about politics. And maybe because religion finds itself in that category of taboo and things you don't talk about, maybe that's why I don't talk about it. Maybe it's because I'm already a pastor and I'm deeper in it than most people who are just, uh, churchgoers.

Nick Clason (18:12):
I don't know what the reason is, but as I'm like just thinking these things out and teasing these things out, there should be a connection. I mean, that's literally one of the things that we talk about as followers of crisis, that we have this connection that despite any of our other differences, that unifies us and brings us together because we identify with the work and person of Jesus. And so therefore that should be what drives us, and that should also be an area that can connect us one another. So, um, an example of that actually of areas that I may connect with people around faith are, or maybe other people who listen to other things or connected to other organizations that I too am connected with. I think about like theology in the Raw Podcast done by Preston Sprinkle. And I think about people who listen to that.

Nick Clason (19:03):
If I found out a Christian listen to that, I would immediately have a different type of connection than just a casual, I'm a Christian, um, or someone who's connected to a ministry organization that I have grown up being connected to called Sun Life. If I knew that, I'd be like, oh, you're a Sun Life person. That makes sense. In fact, that's one of the major reasons in which I took the job I took here in Texas. I found out that a lot of the leadership had been, uh, trained in the Sun Life way of doing things, which sounds like a cult, but really it's just they're trying to model after the, the work of Jesus and what he did in his life, not just his death on the cross, but his life that he modeled and, you know, inviting people to, to come and see he'd follow me, that he'd make them fishes of men and then challenging them to go on and and bear much fruit.

Nick Clason (19:49):
So there are opportunities for that, but I just think like for some reason there's not that connection. And I want to figure out how we can do that and what that might look like. And it, I don't know that that's necessarily only conforming to the ways of this world. However, I do think there are some things that we can learn from the, the ways of the world, the pop culture, the super fan ideas that can help us in creating some of those moments, um, in, in faith, in cul in, in faith, and in our, um, followership of Jesus. So let's, let's dive a little bit deeper. Um, and let's, let's talk a little bit more about the actual discipline of learning some of these skills, um, and how that can be translated from not just like niche pop culture things, but how can we actually do that as faith communities.

Nick Clason (20:40):
So one of my learnings, and this might terrify you, so don't call me a heretic and turn this off when I say this, but you can learn a skill without a relationship with the other person. Now, I think a lot of times we learn from other people, but I think that you can learn a skill devoid of relationships with other people. I just evidenced four examples for real life examples. And there are more. I mean, I talked about like theology in the raw, sun life, thunder, basketball, marvel cinematic universe. I mean, another one that's just coming to my brain right now is finances through Dave Ramsey. I've met the man one time when I went, went down and did my debt-free scream. But after and beyond that, I've learned all I've learned about him through digital means and digital mediums. I also think, and sometimes churches find themselves falling prey to this, that you can exclusively meet in person with no digital or hybridization options on Sunday mornings and on Wednesday nights.

Nick Clason (21:44):
And you can say we don't do any of those other things because that's not how you learn. That's not how you become a disciple. And so you meet on Sundays and you meet on Wednesdays, but you never actually experience any life transformation because you haven't really done anything other than quote unquote meeting together in person you've met in person. But that is all that there is in their relationship. There's nothing more beyond that. There's no actual relationship that happens Monday through Friday. It only happens on Sunday morning in the allocated space. And I think that that is really my biggest argument for hybrid just because you meet in person once a week and you're like, we're all about this. Where else are you leaning into these things? Because if you're not creating more moments for people to connect to those relationships, cuz mind you, I have said you can learn disciplines and things in other areas without a relationship.

Nick Clason (22:49):
However, the church does often start with a relationship. So I'm not saying to take that and throw that baby out with the bathwater, but what I am saying is that you can have those relationships and offer more growth, offer more opportunities for people to attach to this faith community here in the other days throughout the week. Let's talk about some of the biblical basis for relationships. I'm gonna read for you several verses here, and then at the end I'm gonna, uh, give you a couple of observations. So probably the, the most famous meeting together verse comes from the book of Hebrews chapter 10 verses 24 and 25. All of these come out of the ESV that says, and let us consider how to stir one another up to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together as as the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day of the Lord drawing near Colossians chapter three 16 says, let the word of Christ dwell richly in you teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your heart to God.

Nick Clason (24:03):
First Corinthians 1426 says, what then, brothers, when you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. Matthew chapter 12, verse 30 says, whoever is not with me is against me. And whoever does not gather with me scatters First Thessalonians five 11 says, therefore encourage one another and build one another up. Just as you are doing, let's look also to the life of Christ, his life with his disciples. His invitation, like I said, was, uh, to invite them to just come and see, to explore. Then ultimately he gave them a challenge, Hey, come follow me, drop your nets and come follow me. And then he gives him a further command. And this is where the sacrifice and servanthood often comes in of following Jesus is not just to follow me, but he's going to change you, transform you and make them into fishers of men.

Nick Clason (24:56):
And then finally in John chapter 15, we see the verse about the vine and the branches and abiding. And he says, you, I want you now to be called friends and I want you to bear much fruit. So I want you to do what I just did. If you walk with Christ and first John, it says, if you walk with, uh, if you want to follow Christ, you must walk as he walked and live as he lived. So what are the ways in which he lived? He invited people to come and see, uh, earth first. He, yeah, yeah, he invited 'em to come and see, then he invited them to follow him. Then he was gonna change them, transform them, make them into fishes of men until finally then he would, uh, send them out to bear much fruit and repeat and replicate that process of multiplication.

Nick Clason (25:42):
So in all those verses and in the method of Jesus, all of those things are done in person and can be done in person. Yes. And also they can be done in hybrid spaces as well. And I don't just mean like zoom small groups and online church streaming. What I mean is I have a lot of relationships with people across the country in Facebook groups. I have relationships with people that on regular, ongoing basis, I have a once a week phone call with a friend of mine from college where we do accountability and talk through each other's lives. I have a once a month coaching call with people that I do do on Zoom, uh, or that I do do just through a regular old phone call. Like there are other channels and places to enhance relationships that aren't just Sunday morning at 10 30.

Nick Clason (26:34):
You see what I'm saying? Like that's what I'm trying to say. Like it doesn't have to only fit into that mold and that hurts our brain. And that freaks some of us out, especially some of us who adhere to a more traditional stance on gathering together in church. But what I'm saying is not that we should forsake that, but what I am saying is that you can't, someone who's truly interested in something, some sort of discipline can be challenged to learn more through some other additional methods and means. And if you're really into it, like I was about thunder basketball or my wife was about nutrition, they will eat those things up. However, what we've done is we've reduced commitment down to one single metric in the church. And that's church attendance. And here's the thing, that's not an indication of a disciple, but because we've reduced it down to church attendance, what we do is we've actually dumbed down the commitment to the point where we say, Hey, let's get the most amount of attendance here.

Nick Clason (27:32):
And so let's reduce the level of commitment to as low the lowest common denominator as possible. Get the most amount of people here. Oh look, now we have the most amount of butts in seats. Look at our church growth. And the reality is, is that you can offer more, but you're afraid to because the metrics may not make it seem worth it. And you though you can be offering something actually useful and actually beneficial to people to help them grow in their faith, to make spiritual decisions, to foster spiritual life transformation. We don't, we hold back because it doesn't offer the same return that Sunday morning at 10 30 offers. And that's a tough pill to swallow.

Nick Clason (28:14):
So let's round this thing out. Like I said at the top, here are three in live time unchallenged things that could be done, but I don't have exact frameworks for that. You could maybe begin to start thinking through in churches. The first is podcasts more than just your Sunday sermon from your lead pastor, but podcasts in certain areas, certain disciplines, certain classes, maybe like through the Old Testament, new Testament letters of Paul. I mean, think, think, go to like maybe a seminary catalog. What are things that they're offering students in seminary? And what are things that you have the bandwidth or maybe should make the bandwidth to create, to help encourage and equip your people to become more well versed in their knowledge of scripture? See, our our normal response to that is, oh, let's host a class. And, uh, there's nothing wrong with hosting a class, but what if someone's not available when you decide to host a class, but they still want to engage in it?

Nick Clason (29:14):
Is there a way to do both? Or instead of hosting the class, realizing that for you as a pastor, hosting a class often requires an evening time commitment from say, seven o'clock until eight 30. Or if you sit down and record a podcast, you can do that during your normal office nine to five office time. You see what I'm saying? There might be a greater return on that. And then you can offer that class for something different, better, more robust that you're hoping to do. Similarly, you could do either YouTube or, or not hosting on YouTube, but some other platform, video based type classes. You can do like a six week class on navigating grief. You can do an eight week class on lust and purity. You can do a seven week class on, um, the, the methodology of following Jesus. You can do a 10 week class on spiritual gifts.

Nick Clason (30:09):
See, there's all kinds of different ways out there, and I hear the rebuttals right now, and I hear them even in my own brain. Yeah, but I don't wanna put something out there that someone could take and misconstrue. And that might be true. However, if you're not doing it that way, where are you doing it? People do need to know these things. They need to know how to navigate grief and they need to know about lust and period. And they need to know about the ways of follow Jesus. And they need to know about their spiritual gifts. And you probably don't have the bandwidth in your current schedule to offer all those at the same time. Maybe you're the only pastor or you only have one pastor, and so he has to host one class and then move to the next class and then move to the next class.

Nick Clason (30:44):
Or he could offer them all by shooting them on a video, on a phone or whatever the case might be. And offering them, offering them through YouTube via playlist, offering them on some video course thing that's a little bit more, got a little bit more accountability built into it or whatever. The final idea is just ongoing devotionals and or reading plans that you can offer. You can, uh, curate or create you version reading bible plans. You can, um, write your own, you can get your whole church reading through a certain thing if you're in like a sermon series. And John, for example, you can, while you're in the Book of John, you can have people reading through the book of John together in their daily quiet time, giving them something to do, something to turn to in their, uh, daily quiet time discipline. So those are just three kind of ideas, like I said, un unchallenged, un uh, not not seeing a lot of people doing them, but just ideas to continue to lean into some of those hybrid moments.

Nick Clason (31:46):
Well, once again, everyone's so glad you're here. Thank you for sticking to the end. I hope I didn't step on toes too hard, but I do want to get us thinking more and more in this way. I know for me, I experience as a pastor a lot of in-person moments and I get frustrated when I see the church not thinking through some of these other avenues that are available to them that they're just not really doing anything with. And so I hope that this is helpful to you. I hope you see it as an encouragement. If you're listening to this podcast, you probably already think this way. And so share it with someone who might be helpful for them to think in a new way. As always, a rating, a review, a subscribe, all those things are incredibly helpful. You can follow me on my YouTube channel link in the show notes or my TikTok account, which I do post two of these for every single episode, uh, throughout the week. So go grab those along with some other, um, church communications, church social media and church marketing tips type thoughts. Those all on my social media, both on TikTok and also on YouTube in the shorts category. But hey, until next time, and as always, stay hybrid.

Follow us on Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or check us out online - http://www.hybridministry.xyz

LINKS
EBOOK EXAMPLE
https://21023629.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/21023629/101%20Things%20to%20do%20this%20Summer.pdf?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=220409116&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--GvYYsBn799IT7tZQ07OLdeLeNshWl6rRnS5f0wNelRUcxnmSP6GBZ4rNYmusr63ghavYI8SAUk3drn2tD3kuUF929s7xlw622qVQVuVCXDVsrlvE&utm_content=220409116&utm_source=hs_automation

WHITE PAPER
https://www.dare2share.org/gospel-advancing/value1-prayer

MICHAEL HYATT'S BLOG
https://fullfocus.co/blog/

CROSSROADS PODCAST NETWORK
https://www.crossroads.net/media/podcasts/

PILLAR PAGE EXAMPLE
https://www.typeform.com/blog/guides/brand-awareness/

TIMECODES
00:00-02:42 Intro and Beard Discussion
02:42-05:33 Should churches do marketing?
05:33-11:02 Why Content Marketing is so effective
11:02-16:53 How do develop a church ebook
16:53-23:49 How to use White Paper for churches
23:49-27:45 Blogging for churches
27:45-33:29 Podcasting for churches
33:29-34:24 Pillar Pages for Churches
34:24-37:00 How to convince your boss
37:00-38:37 How to get started on each item
38:37-40:48 Which one do I start with?
40:48-44:36 What are the best services to use to capture this stuff?
44:36-45:38 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast. In today's episode, we are going to be talking about marketing in the church. And what exactly is content marketing? I'm your host, Nick Clason sitting in alongside my amazing friend. The bearded wonder himself, Matt Johnson, how you doing this morning? And how's your beard.

Matt Johnson (00:27):
Beard is good. Trimmed up, you know, a little bit cleaner, you know, we're, we're in summertime. So, you know, I like to keep a little shorter and,

Nick Clason (00:34):
Uh, is that like shots fired at me? Is that shots fired at my no,

Matt Johnson (00:37):
No shots fired at you it off. Cause when the winter comes around, I stopped trim it. So

Nick Clason (00:45):
Yeah. It's nice. Well, I mean, I just announced everybody that I'm gonna be moving to Texas, so I don't even know if I'm gonna see winter anymore.

Matt Johnson (00:54):
Probably not. No. I think, uh, your winters are in the past now, so which is really good for you.

Nick Clason (01:00):
Yeah. And my wife told me my Beard's looking kind of boxy, so I'm not sure what to do with that. I feel like that's code code for trim it.

Matt Johnson (01:08):
code for shape it a little bit.

Nick Clason (01:11):
Yeah. Come on, get rid of the box there. So yeah. Anyway, I interrupted you. You said you're doing good.

Matt Johnson (01:17):
Yeah, I'm doing good. How are you doing

Nick Clason (01:19):
Great, man. Great. I'm a little sleepy cuz you know it's it's Thursday. We had church last night. So of course I was out late, but oh as well. Um, some do idiot decided to plan an event with silly string. And then I watched as the facilities team looked glaringly and begrudgingly on at the mess that was being made on the patio. And I thought to myself, dang it. Now I probably should clean this up. So that took a minute

Matt Johnson (01:51):
Oh, let me get a little silly string,

Nick Clason (01:54):
Um, silly string and then

Matt Johnson (01:55):
We're very messy

Nick Clason (01:57):
And then we're getting ready to do a, a, a baptism out on the patio. So there's a big tub out there. And of course all the kids are like getting water from it and throwing it on each other. So whoever thought let's get this set up on a Wednesday before the event, they, they obviously forgot that we were gonna be out there. So

Matt Johnson (02:15):
Yeah, like let's get ahead of it. Be prepared. Oh actually we made a bigger mess and we had to refill it up.

Nick Clason (02:22):
Exactly. And they're initially stringing it now. So

Matt Johnson (02:25):
well, people are getting baptized Sunday. You know, you might find some silly string.

Nick Clason (02:31):
You might come out with some, uh, lines of pink on you. It's okay. Don't worry. It's not no need that's it's just silly string.

Matt Johnson (02:38):
No need to concern yourself.

Nick Clason (02:40):
So, uh, Matt, one of the things I think is an interesting conversation and I'd like to talk about it first here is like, is marketing a thing that churches should even be focused on? Cause a lot of what we're talking about, uh, in, in all these episodes is marketing is kind, kind of like brand recognition, getting yourself out there and different tips and strategies for that. And so I think there may just be a natural aversion to the word marketing, cuz it sounds very secular. It sounds very like businessy. Um, so what, what would be your response to someone who is like marketing in the church? Like, you know, you should be flipping tables for that.

Matt Johnson (03:19):
absolutely. No, I, I used to be under that ideas. Like why would you ever market Jesus? Like that's not something that needs to be marketed mm-hmm and I think something that you should think about when we think about marketing is not your traditional sense of marketing, of like, Hey, there's a billboard for us. We have commercials. We have radio ads or even like Facebook or TikTok ads. Um, that's not what I'm talking. That's not the primary focus of market anymore. Primary focus marketing is, uh, really just awareness and something. I always go, Seth, always you're marketing, trying to change world with your marketing, you're failing as a marketer. Um, so when you put that in a context, your marketing mind should shift cuz I mean we're working in the church and you should be trying to change the world. So this is definitely something that we should be, you know, evangelizing essentially.

Matt Johnson (04:11):
And it's I'm so what, how a good way to put this in your mind is like, Hey, how do we do a, you know, have an evangelistic mindset for our church in the modern era. And uh, I always just think back to, you know, the pastorals they've marketed Christianity in a totally different way. So it's always been quote marketed, but you just gotta think that brand awareness, bringing awareness to what you're trying to do and how you're trying to help the community and that stuff not, Hey, come by Jesus. Cause if, and if that's what you're at, like you're totally missing the entire point of everything we've talked about.

Nick Clason (04:46):
Yeah. I think about Paul says, uh, I become all things to all people and I think that he would use the digital means that are available to him today, you know, to, to help get the message of Jesus spread. You know, I think one of the, I dunno, probably issues or maybe concerns would just be that there seems to be an oversaturation maybe of messaging out there. And so how can, uh, how can the church stand apart? Like what sets them, you know, in obviously we're, we're coming from a different position, but how do we do it? Well, because if we, I feel like if we don't do it well, we're just gonna get lost in a sea of kinda white noise that's out there.

Matt Johnson (05:31):
Yep, exactly.

Nick Clason (05:33):
So, uh, one of the, one of the things you told me the other day was, uh, this idea about content marketing. So first of all, mm-hmm what is content marketing?

Matt Johnson (05:45):
Yeah. So content marketing is this idea that you're using content that you're creating to market. So it's like, again, we're not talking about, you know, TikTok ads, Facebook ads, Instagram ads, we're not talking about, um, popup ads or uh, um, ads before a YouTube video. We're actually talking about giving people in our churches and that we want to come to our church content, that markets who we are. Um, so we'll get into all the nitty gritty details of what that looks like in a little bit, but uh, it's just providing a value, um, more than just a Hey here's who we are.

Nick Clason (06:25):
Yeah. Or here's service times, right? Or here's, here's our address. You should come to our service. Like it's, it's providing, I like that we're providing value, you know, giving them something that they can, that that's useful to them valuable to them. And Matt, do you think, um, before we get to nitty gritty, do you think that this type of thing, if you're gonna try and provide quote unquote value, can it be done on multiple levels? Can you provide value, um, and information content to people that are already disciples inside your church and people not inside your church? Or do you feel like you need to choose one or the other? Like what would you say to that?

Matt Johnson (07:07):
No, I would say it could be both very easily. Um, as you start, you know, deciding what the content you wanna do and what the purpose of your content is, you can really start to figure out what that value is. You add, um, content marketing can virtual your people that already disciples, and then it can also bring in you new people can be an evangelism tool at Casa breed, new discipleship tool. You have so many avenues that can go with content marketing, um, and all that stuff that we had talked about, like services and, uh, we, this,

Nick Clason (07:54):
No, I was say, yeah, if you add value, then there's gonna be a more natural trust that's built and then an easier step into coming to service or coming to that event because you've already, you've already built a bridge and a relationship to those people.

Matt Johnson (08:10):
Exactly. Yep.

Nick Clason (08:12):
So I think, you know, so then if it can be done for both, then this doesn't feel like such a, such a foreign idea to the job description of most local church pastors. I think what it does maybe feel like though is, uh, like a lot of extra work, um, at least, you know, for me, you know, not cuz I'm not really sure what we're talking about with the, when it pertains to content marketing. So let's dive into that, but first tell, tell everyone the stat you told me the other day about why content marketing is so effective.

Matt Johnson (08:47):
Yeah. Content marketing is the most effective form of marketing that, you know, us marketing experts have identified right now. And I can see this, this personally and all the stuff that we've been testing through my career, but, uh, it's 64% more effective than traditional marketing. It's three times cheaper. So when you hear that, you go, okay, I'm gonna get better results and spend way less money, which is always news, good news to the years of anybody that's got a strict budget. So yeah. Uh, if you can really start implementing some of this, uh, content marketing strategy, uh, you're gonna start seeing results and you're gonna be able to grow your torch or church organically. So mm-hmm

Nick Clason (09:29):
Yeah. And so like, alright, so then let's take all that. So we're not marketing Jesus. We're just creating awareness around our church, which our church is truly speaking. The best message that there is in the entire world, the literal good news that you can have death, or you can have life because your sin has caused you death. And so we want to share that message with people and we want to, uh, go to the ends of the earth. And so we're going to use the digital means that are given to us. We've become all things to all people to get this message out there. And in light of all that it is the most effective form of marketing secular or not. And it is also the cheapest or maybe it's not the cheapest, but it's three times more cheap you said than, than some of the other ones.

Nick Clason (10:12):
So in light of all that, it bodes really well because all, all it really requires of us. The cost, it really requires of us is just some, some like additional work or some, you know, this sounds so old, but some elbow grease, I don't know if that's a thing people say anymore, but just get down, get down. Yeah. I don't know, whatever. Get in there, make some stuff happen. Um, create some things. And so I think like the way I think about it is there's really like two prongs to it. There's the content and then there's the distribution of it. Right. So let's talk through just some of the actual content first. Um, and then when we get done with that, let's just chat through like different ways that churches can begin to create a distribution model for it, whether that's through setting up ads or websites or whatever the case may be. Sound good.

Matt Johnson (11:00):
Mm yep. Sounds great.

Nick Clason (11:02):
All right. So, uh, what the first one I have in mind is an ebook. Can you, I mean, most people know an ebook is, but can you give a few ideas or a few examples of what an ebook might look like for a church or how they could use an ebook as a form of content marketing?

Matt Johnson (11:18):
Absolutely. So I'll give some like real practical examples too, that, uh, I've personally helped create or that we've used. So, uh, one of our most recent one was the summer ebook, which I believe we probably talked about in a performer. Uh, and we're about to launch our fall ebook and, uh, what these eBooks are designed to is for our next gen ministry at, uh, our current church. And that is really to help, you know, promote everything you can do with your kids, um, in the summer or the fall at the end of the ebook we're promoting event. So for the summer one, it was to really promote, uh, summer jam, which is our version of vacation Bible school. And then now for the follow you book, we're gonna be promoting trunk or treat, which, you know, we all know what trunk or treat is. And it's just a good way to like, Hey, we have this resource for you.

Matt Johnson (12:03):
That's not all about who we are, but this resource can also bring you to us. Um, another good example is like, uh, you, Nick who's, you know, a youth leader, you could create an ebook for your summer camp. Um, like, uh, mm-hmm, , here's, uh, the summer camp checklist for every student, for every parent. Like you can create an ebook about that stuff. Or, um, for small groups you can create ebook about like, Hey, here's everything you need to know about joining a small group or, um, you know, so on and so on and so on. So they're just sit down and think of like, okay, what could I actually fill, you know, like 10 pages of, with some fun stuff and it doesn't have to be like, copy extensive. It can honestly just be a lot of images checklist, but you have a ton of opportunity there. And it's a way to get people to actually give you their email and their phone number mm-hmm and then we can reach out to them. And it's also a good way to promote, Hey, this is what we have going on.

Nick Clason (13:00):
Yeah. So like, so on a workflow side, the ebook, we curated ideas for families. So all we did was we just sent out emails and texts to people who have young kids and say, what are things you know about? And then we just threw it all together in a big Google doc, and then we organized it. And so like a couple of fun things that we did within that was we did like a park list. So broken down by city or community, we just gave them names of good parks. Another thing we did was we created an ice cream trail, uh, so that families could have a, like a, a goal to try and hit every ice cream shop or whatever over the course of the summer. Um, and that, wasn't a thing that was created. Like we just gathered different ice cream places. And then we created, uh, this quote unquote trail, you know, like, like when I lived in Cincinnati a couple years ago, there was a, an official like donut trail.

Nick Clason (13:58):
And that, you know, that was a thing that was like actually known and marketed, but like this ice cream trail thing, like we just came up with this. Um, and then other thing we did was we made like a, we made like a scavenger hunt, um, in, in there about like different parks and stuff. So if you figure out like a local park or preserve or whatever, like try and find a caterpillar or try and find a leaf or whatever. And so theoretically you could print that out if you're like a family and you could take that to the preserve with you or to the park, and then you could do your little scavenger hunt thing. And so I think, like to Matt's point, what you're saying is you're like, this is the thing that provides value and it isn't even a promotion of an event or a promotion of our church.

Nick Clason (14:37):
It's really just a way for us as a, as an organization to help support, um, families, you know, in, in this time to give 'em something to do over the summer. Cause everyone's looking for different things to do, you know, over the summer. And so, so you can do that. Yeah. That's what we did, but you can do that all kinds of different things. So I'm gonna throw the link in there to, uh, our ebook into the show notes in case you wanna check it out. Um, but, and you might get subscribed to our email list as a result of that, but Hey, that'd be cool too. Um, anything else on eBooks, Matt?

Matt Johnson (15:11):
Um, no, I think that's about all I have on eBooks, honestly. Uh, yeah.

Nick Clason (15:17):
How

Matt Johnson (15:17):
Long they use 'em they're really easy to make.

Nick Clason (15:20):
Let me ask you this. So we, we crafted, we came up with all the content, right? Like here's the list of things and then we organized it and then we handed it to you and you actually, you know, usually you outsource this, but this time you just created it, how long did that take you to create it? And where did you create it?

Matt Johnson (15:38):
Uh, I created it in Canva cuz I just, uh, wanted to, you know, see what, what we could do with Canva. I'm not, I usually use Adobe and stuff for that kind of, uh, project. Um, honestly probably took about two to three hours to do the whole thing, um, of actual work it's, I mean it took, you know, more time cause there was a lot back and forth and approval processes and all that kinda stuff, but uh, yeah. And then when can have cheap, you can do it for like 12 bucks a month and for the pro version of it and really create something nice, but you can use free version to make a pretty ebook. And if you really wanna get like creative, you do Photoshop and illustrator and um, put all in design. So,

Nick Clason (16:17):
And last, last I checked, I think Canada has a nonprofit license for churches. So you can look into, into that and reach out about that. And so that's a really great free resource. So, you know, theoretically from cover to cover, you did that in two to three hours. So anyone with even a little bit of design ability should be able to throw that together. Not, not too, it's not too much work once you kind of get everything built together. So, um,

Matt Johnson (16:43):
Yeah, you can work off a template.

Nick Clason (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's one of the advantages of Canva. It comes with those things prebuilt in there. So mm-hmm all right. Uh, white pages, um, what, what are those and why are they useful?

Matt Johnson (16:58):
uh, white pages are honestly one of my favorite things to do in marketing, uh, and a white page is usually just an informational document that, um, can highlight features of like the church, your product, like whatever that looks like to whatever you're trying to market, um, could be your services, uh, and what you can do with like white papers, which we, uh, I did when I was working at dare to share was, uh, we did a white paper for all the gospel advancing values, all a sudden values. So each value had a white paper for it and it was a, you know, a highlighted solution of like what those values looked like. And those were one of our greatest lead generators to get leaders, to become gospel advancing leaders. So, um, find that thing that you were like, okay, we could actually write an informational document about this.

Matt Johnson (17:50):
So, uh, could that be, maybe you provide daycare at your church, like you're, you should probably do a white paper about why your is a great solution for in the community, just to some there, um, maybe your church, uh, it takes a, you know, um, baby dedication very seriously. So why not do a baby dedication white paper to talk about like the biblical reasons behind that and what the difference between baby dedication and baby baptism is. And, um, especially in our culture, which is, you know, primary Catholic, that's probably something that we should do so people can understand, like we're not, we don't really baptize babies, but we would love to dedicate your baby. And here's the reasons why and stuff like that. So, um, you can really define those solutions. You could honestly do a white paper for all the ministries that you have going on. So we could do a student, uh, white paper. That's all about like what students offers and uh, why, you know, students is a great opportunity. Um, and these can be long documents or they could be, you know, kind an infograph, uh, and I've seen both work really well. And the idea of the white paper is just to have another way to people download and get some more information from you.

Nick Clason (19:01):
Hmm. So it, it sounds like this is like, like a PDF or something like that, that people can download. And then it, it is that what's the reason why that is a good, uh, searchable or lead generator for people. What makes the fact that it's a PDF? What makes it, um, what makes it so good for marketing, I guess on the back end? Like what makes Google find it? Or, you know, whatever.

Matt Johnson (19:31):
Yeah. So you're, there's a couple things. So the big thing that's gonna differ white paper from like the ebook or, um, even some of this other stuff we're gonna talk about is a white paper is a lot of information usually, and people are looking for that for like, you know, uh, literally searching for that information they wanted. They're trying to build trust within. You're gonna build a lot of trust if people download your white paper, mm-hmm so the back end of Google, it's gonna wanna like, so that conversion rate's gonna be really high for the people that are searching for that, which Google is gonna like. Um, so it's gonna be a little more, you know, specific to, um, what you're creating the white paper for, but if people are searching for that, they're gonna Mo you know, there's probably like a 60% chance they're actually gonna download it, which is way better than, you know, an ebook you're probably looking at, you know, an 11% chance to download it if you're, you know, on a good day. So,

Nick Clason (20:27):
So this is something that's like a, a PDF document that you create your positional paper or stance or whatever, maybe with infographics and stuff like that on baby dedication. Why is it good to have all of that information in a downloadable, uh, nice looking PDF style thing, as opposed to all that, like all those keywords and words and verbiage sitting on a website.

Matt Johnson (20:52):
Great question. So the big reason in my mind is cuz it's a marketing lead for me. It's a lead generator for me, so I can get people to download it. Um, and they're gonna give their info and we know, uh, that because people are gonna wanna download it. If they're searching for it, you're more likely like that conversion rate is gonna be higher on it for those white papers. Uh, you're also, um, we'll get into content cluster and we don't want, you know, uh, or pillar page. Uh, those are gonna be a little bit longer. Honestly, a white paper is usually about 2,500 words and I've seen pillar pages that are 30,000 words. So, you know, OK. It's, uh, it could be very, it's a little bit more digestible, but it's a little bit bigger than the ebook. It's more info. Um, it's just kind of a next step for people. So if you are somebody that loves to write, um, you know, you're a pastor that loves writing their sermons a lot, uh, and you are like, Hey, I've always wanted to write a little book or whatever the eBooks, a great Legion, but I wanna write like in depth about, um, something that's going, some solution that we have at our church for, you know, maybe it's for alcoholism or something. And you guys have great solution for that. You have ed, you might write a big thing about that and get that known.

Nick Clason (22:07):
Well, I'm even just thinking about, like, we have a, we have like a, um, in person wall, you know, in our building. And one of the things we have a little pamphlet there and it's just called like the guide to student ministry at our church. And I was like that right there with, I feel like the right like amount of like search terms and, and keywords and stuff like that. That would, that would be a great example of what we're talking about here. Mm-hmm again, right? Like when we created it, we were only thinking about in person experiences. So only people that are gonna be in our lobby looking for it in our lobby, as opposed to also creating it and finding a place for it to live and exist on our website so that people can also find it there. It's just it's that switch. Right? It's that flip of a switch of thinking like you, you, more than likely already have something like this because you've created a brochure or pamphlet or something like that. Mm-hmm so then turn that same piece of content into something that can go, um, on a website, like, like you're talking about.

Matt Johnson (23:06):
Yeah. And, uh, you we've started, I mean, you've probably seen this Nick when we were like staying at church on Sunday, but I don't see a lot of people go to our physical walls without, you know, direction to so, uh, it's not a good awareness piece, you know, I've had plenty of people come on, go what's the student ministry about, I'm like, oh my goodness, we have failed, you know, give them more content to, you know, be able to figure out, you know, and identify these solutions for them.

Nick Clason (23:35):
Does, does that, uh, dare to share, like, do those websites, do they still exist? Like could we link to them?

Matt Johnson (23:41):
Uh, they should. Yeah, I can. I'll uh, I'll dig 'em up. We just, we revamped the whole website since we did those. So I'll just have to find where we re put those, so.

Nick Clason (23:50):
Okay. Yeah. So I'll give you a link to that. Give you a link to what the summer ebook looked like. Uh, the next thing is, um, blogs. Let's talk about blogs. Blogs seem like, um, old news they've been around forever. So are they still useful piece of content marketing? Are they still worth our time? What, what would you say to that?

Matt Johnson (24:08):
Uh, I'd say blogs are probably the lowest hanging fruit that anyone listens in this podcast could start, you know, um, doing right now. Um, and the reason I say that is cuz they don't need to be long. Uh, if you get a consistent rhythm of blog writing, you're gonna have consistent search. Uh, your SEO's gonna continue to be updated. And also you're gonna have, uh, consistent reason for people to continue to come back to you, which that's the key of a lot we've talked about. We want people to just come back to us and we don't want it to only be on Sunday mornings at church. We want to come on a Wednesday at work when they're on their lunch break and go, Hey, I wanna check out what my church has going on with it. So, um, blogs are honestly one of the easiest things to start implementing right now and the traffic and the potential of a blog is still massive.

Matt Johnson (24:58):
So a great example of this is Michael Hyatt, um, who, uh, if you guys don't know who Michael I Hyatt is, you know, they grow up full. He, uh, he's a designer, full focus planner. He was an SEO or a CEO at a book publishing company. Uh, he's a hugely influential person in the marketing world and he started his entire company based off of blog writing, um, by giving like daily tips, um, like, uh, how to balance your day, uh, how to be a good boss, how to be a leader. Um, and he was doing that while I was a CEO. And then, uh, he turned that into an entirely functional company right now and full focus. So, uh, that is a great example of like what a blog can do for you. Uh, and blogs are just, uh, something that everyone can write, honestly, like it's your voice, it's your personality, that's your opinion on it. So, um, and they don't have to be long. Like you can write a, you know, 300, 500 word blog and that's all you need.

Nick Clason (25:56):
Yeah. Great. So here, like, and Matt correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like most like template website builders are sort of built on like a blog style, uh, idea, like it's built with the idea of like posts. So it's pretty easy for most church websites to create some sort of blog type thing where you just throw quick hitters of like your thoughts.

Matt Johnson (26:19):
Exactly. And you, there's probably not a lot. You need to change. You just gotta look at some formatting stuff. Uh, like I said, it's gonna be a huge win for you. If you can actually start getting your blog going and be consistent, that's the one thing you will say, don't start a blog if you're not gonna be consistent and you're not gonna write it. So if you're gonna commit to a blog, say I'm gonna have a blog up every day. Like every Tuesday at 10:00 AM, make sure it's up every Tuesday at 10:00 AM, cuz that's gonna help also, uh, unlike the algorithm side of things. So

Nick Clason (26:50):
What's a good, what would be a good recommended rhythm? Would you say for someone who's gonna blog? How often, how frequent all that stuff? How long?

Matt Johnson (26:58):
Yeah, so I would start once a week, you know, get your, your toes wet, your fingers warmed up as you're typing for. Um, uh, and I would pick a day that you might see that might be the best day for traffic, for you at your, uh, at your church. So like for us, we have found Thursdays at, you know, 9:00 AM to be the best time to post anything. So, uh, that's when we would post, uh, you know, a new blog or whatever. Um, and then, uh, as you like start building your blog up or if you're like, Hey, this is something that I could definitely add more to start doing two a week or three a week. Um, you know, Michael Hyatt was doing one every day, which that's pretty, that's pretty intense. So I mean, if you have the time to do that and you wanna do that and you have the drive to do that, go for it, but I would just start with one at day right now and then build on there.

Nick Clason (27:46):
All right. Great. So let's talk a little bit then Matt, about podcasts. Um, are, I feel like podcasts similar to blogs have been around forever? Are they still like a useful marketing tool?

Matt Johnson (27:59):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. If people are, wanna find a topic, um, they're gonna, um, traditionally look for podcasts now, especially the younger demographic.

Nick Clason (28:09):
Yeah. What was like, what was the, what was the stat hubs stat came? Hub spot came out with a couple of weeks ago or months ago about, uh, the average, average American or average person listening to podcasts.

Matt Johnson (28:22):
Yeah. So podcast listeners. So those are people that send a podcast, 84% of them listen to eight hours or more podcast a week. You have 78% of Americans are aware of podcasts and almost 60% of people in America listen to podcasts. So, um, a lot of people are, I mean, podcasts are continually to grow. Um, I mean younger people, it's definitely something that they do to pass the time now, especially on commutes and walking and, um, runs and working out and all that kinda stuff. And then, uh, you, you know, older people, old, older generations are starting to, you know, jump on the podcast bandwagon. So

Nick Clason (29:01):
Yeah. So do you think that it's just recording your sermon, throwing it in on a podcast? Is that what you're recommending here?

Matt Johnson (29:09):
Uh, I mean that, that's where you can start, honestly. I mean, that's not gonna give you, you know, the traditional traction of a podcast, uh, just because, you know, you're only gonna get people that wanna listen to your sermon at that point. They're not gonna necessarily be searching for like that topic for help. So, so like creating a parenting podcast or like an interview type podcast where people are like, Hey, I'm kinda looking for this kinda thing, but it is a good place to start and you already have the content.

Nick Clason (29:37):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, crossroads in Cincinnati, uh, they have a like almost entire podcast network. Um, and I was I'll link to it in the show notes, but I was scrolling through it the other day. And so like, their pastor's name is Brian to, so they have a podcast called the aggressive life with Brian to then they have one called freed up it's about money. Then they have one called you can do this and it's a parenting podcast. And then they have one called, um, IKR question mark. It says real conversations with real women. One called I love Cincinnati, one called too long. Didn't read. And that's like a cliff notes version of like the Bible one called man skills, one called spirit stories. Um, so yeah, like they have what, whatever that is like seven, eight, something like that podcast summer, obviously. Right. I love Cincinnati.

Nick Clason (30:32):
That's very like regional to them. And so it's just a podcast about yeah. Cincinnati and showcasing the best things about there. And, um, he, he does interviews with interesting people from Cincinnati and then they got one on like just the Bible, like, Hey, maybe the Bible, isn't something that's a regular rhythm or discipline to your life, but here's a quick hitter of, of different books, different chapters, you know, stuff like that. Um, so I, I I'll link to that in the show notes, but I love their approach to that. Cuz I think like you said, a lot of people are just starting with just the sermon. Um, and obviously crossroads is a big church, so they have a lot of resources to make some of these things happen, but you can begin to start thinking and looking and seeing ways that you can create other topics or other podcasts that might be interesting. And it's honestly, man, yeah. This is like episode what, seven or eight for us like this isn't been that hard. Like it's actually really fun. no. And

Matt Johnson (31:27):
So fun. It's easy and it's yeah.

Nick Clason (31:30):
Yeah. You're just having a conversa conversation. We're just recording a conversation, you know, between you and me. And so if you can get two people that don't sound awkward on a microphone, like which is in a church is probably pretty easy because you get people that stand up talking to microphones all the time. So that that's not that that, you know, far off of a skillset of what they probably already have within their repertoire to do exactly. So. Yeah. Yep. Um, and then out of that, uh, one of the things that, uh, I think I've heard you recommend is transcripting those so that you can get all the words onto a website

Matt Johnson (32:09):
Mm-hmm yep, absolutely. Uh, highly recommend doing transcripts, uh, cause everything we've talked about over the last half hour or so is all, you know, searchable terms. So, and you can do, there's plenty of transcripting services out there that are fairly, very cheap to, you know, that you could just upload your MP3 two and they'll transcribe it for you.

Nick Clason (32:31):
Yeah. I mean basically every time we do this, it's anywhere from 30 to 40 minutes and a AI subscription service through rev.com, um, will basically give me this transcript for anywhere from eight to $10. And so that's not super expensive. You, you put that along with the link to the podcast, whether you're using a hosting service or you're hosting it directly on your own website, um, and boom, there you go. You got all the words from it and you know, sometimes they messed stuff up. Like they spell my last name wrong every time. Yeah. But that's the catch go change it. Solos deal. Well, no, they put a Y in it when I say Clason it's there's no, Y a Y so

Matt Johnson (33:13):
Whatever to call you, it says calling Nate Clauson.

Nick Clason (33:17):
Cause you know how everyone says the word Jason and Mason, right? Like that's, that's how you're supposed to say those words too, obviously. Sorry.

Matt Johnson (33:26):

Nick Clason (33:28):
All right. Uh, pillar pages. What are those? We talked about those a little bit last time. So if you, if you didn't listen to the last episode, go back and listen. We went pretty, pretty nerdy and pretty in depth on those. But for those that weren't here, give a quick, give a quick hitter of what those are and the purpose of them,

Matt Johnson (33:45):
Uh, pillar page is a page specifically designed to help with SEO. Um, so search engine optimizations, and it's a large page also known as a content cluster of lots and lots of copy and information about something that's searchable. So good example of this is that we, uh, we're working on a pillar page right now at our church called, uh, the everything you need to know about Christian Small groups. And we identified those search terms. And now we're gonna just write a bunch of content all about that. So, um, and that's gonna be, you know, a pillar page to help drive traffic to our find your people stuff.

Nick Clason (34:24):
So let's pretend that you are marketing genius. You are sitting here or you're at least marketing interested. You're hearing this. You're like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But you are like multiple steps away from decision making. You are not the senior leader in your church and you go to your senior pastor and you experience some form of opposition. How would you Matt advise that person to enter into said conversation about one of these things?

Matt Johnson (34:58):
Just any of them?

Nick Clason (35:00):
Well, yeah, let let's hit

Matt Johnson (35:02):
Pillar

Nick Clason (35:03):
Pages. Let's hit it from a no from, from all of 'em. All of 'em. Yeah. Let's hit it from a high level. So you're, you're not the, you're not the decision maker, but you want to, how do you go about convincing your senior leadership that content marketing is worth doing?

Matt Johnson (35:19):
Yeah. Uh, I would go to your senior leadership with just a lot of this information we talked about. So, you know, a big way I started pitching a lot of the stuff, you know, at a current church is a lot of the stats that, you know, we're seeing, um, in the marketing world. So, uh, we know how effective content marketing is and how it can actually, you know, nurture our, uh, congregation. I, um, for your church, it could be the blog. It could be the podcast. Um, really depends. So, uh, I would go in with that in mind, go in, um, with change management in mind. So just, you know, go in and, uh, talk about, uh, what you're seeing, what the goals are and why you can do it and how you're gonna be able to do it, uh, is my best advice for all that it is gonna, can be kinda challenging, especially if you have, uh, older church and older, uh, executives on your team to kinda pitch some of this stuff.

Matt Johnson (36:25):
Um, um, especially some of the stuff that, you know, they might not see instant gratification from. So like a podcast you're not gonna see instant numbers from, it's something that you put time, money and effort into. That's gonna take, you know, um, a while to actually build your community up. But once it's built, it's usually pretty solid. And people typically once they're, you know, in the world of a podcast or whatever they can, uh, um, they stick around. So that's just the kinda stuff that you need to come in, ready to answer. So pick something that, you know, you can succeed at that, uh, can give you some fairly quick wins. Um, and then, uh, just be able to talk about that with that change management in mind.

Nick Clason (37:00):
So let's, let's, uh, keep, let's do this super quick, but let's pretend that you, uh, got approval to do one of these things. And in one month, what would be a win? I wanna just go through each of these. I want you to just lay out what you think a win might look like. So what would be a win if in one month you launched an ebook, what is a, a measurable win, something that you can point to your, your boss about like, Hey, look at this, this is what we saw. This was a win because blank happened.

Matt Johnson (37:31):
How many new people downloaded your ebook

Nick Clason (37:34):
And

Matt Johnson (37:34):
Depending on the size of your church, that number is gonna vary.

Nick Clason (37:37):
Sure, sure. Sure. What about white page? Same thing.

Matt Johnson (37:41):
Uh, white page. Yeah. White papers, probably pages. I would say the same thing is, uh, probably how many new people actually downloaded it.

Nick Clason (37:49):
Okay. How about a blog,

Matt Johnson (37:52):
A blog? I would just say how many, uh, people have read your blogs so you can actually get those stats, you know, you don't want people skimming it, um, not, or just bouncing away from it. So like actually having that bounce rate low and that read rate high on it.

Nick Clason (38:06):
OK. Podcast,

Matt Johnson (38:09):
Uh, podcast, it shows, uh, how many people are listening to it and these don't need to be new people. Like I said, a podcast is really gonna start with your and then grow

Nick Clason (38:18):
And then pillar page,

Matt Johnson (38:21):
Uh, pillar page is going just be how many people clicked on the page that's SEO related. So the bounce rate could be really high, but if you get someone stuck on for also biggest of that in mind.

Nick Clason (38:35):
Yeah. Okay, great. Um, alright. So you're a small church. You don't have anything of any one of these things and we just hired you to be our marketing consultant. What would be your number one project that you'd say, Hey, do this to get started,

Matt Johnson (38:53):
Look at this, the stats and who your congregation is and who your target is. But, um, most 90% of the time, I would say blog or podcast, just because it doesn't take a lot of extra effort on your end, um, podcast. You're gonna have to do a little bit editing, of course. Um, and the blog, you know, you're gonna have to set that up and, but the time commitment's a little bit less than some of these other things. And ebook is a quick way to get, you know, huge, uh, like to not get huge numbers, but to start seeing some of the new numbers come in a white paper, you'll have better, stronger leads. And then, uh, you know, a pillar page is a massive project. I wanna reiterate that there're a lot of work, so, um, but they won't give you the most traffic to your website.

Nick Clason (39:33):
Well, and I think like, if you, if we're thinking about this from like an in person ministry strategy, like everything you do for in person requires a lot of work. Like I'll just say, as a youth pastor, I have to build an entire schedule for an entire semester. I have to recruit in, uh, secure several different like locations, host homes, small group leaders, get them screened, um, create like a theme for every week and teaching and content and all these different things. Like there's a lot of work to be done. And so mm-hmm, um, like just because what we're talking about here in, in like digital form is a lot of work. It doesn't mean it's, it's not worth it, or you should only take the easy way out. It just means that you also have to set up all the infrastructure and framework to make it work too. And once you do, mm-hmm, , it's gonna be worth your while, but you have to have someone who cares about it and keep it going. Just like you have someone who cares about your student ministry, just like you have someone who cares about your women's ministry, keeping those things up and running and keeping them organized and brought together and the framework built and all the same types of things that we're talking about here. Like, it is a lot of work, but it's also worth it.

Matt Johnson (40:47):
Mm-hmm exactly. Yep.

Nick Clason (40:49):
So, so last thing, Matt speaking around this idea of organization, like all these things are a great idea, but how like, like, especially like eBooks white pages, like you're trying to capture emails. And so what is the best way to get your, get the word out there with these things? Um, is there like, cuz you, you know, you wanna do some sort of like email marketing type of thing and your church may have that may not mm-hmm but so you're gonna want to grab people's names, grab people's emails. Um, you're gonna need websites. Like what is the best distribution method? Is it advertising E like talk through it, just like that entire process from, um, getting it out there on Google, getting it, getting it out there on Facebook for ads, getting people to click on your thing, getting people to put their name in, um, where's all that stuff go, how's it how's doing. How do you keep it, keep all these things, uh, all these parts of the machine moving and working together. What's the best way to do that.

Matt Johnson (41:50):
Yeah. We could do a whole episode about advertising, probably a couple episodes, honestly, cause it's such a beast. Um, and distribution in general, but I would say like to get you started, I'm just gonna give you a soft answer since we've already given you so much info in this one is social media. So just do what organically on social, figure out what your delivery method is. So if you wanna, you know, do MailChimp, I don't know what your church has in place right now. So if it's a that you have, or, um, maybe you're doing a hub or you have rock RMS, whatever that you're capturing people already. So you have some way that you're capturing emails already. There's probably a form option that connects to that, that you can deliver PDFs for. Um, I would say probably nine times outta 10. That's probably true. So, um,

Nick Clason (42:42):
Well in most of those, most of those, whether, yeah, most of those, whether you pay for them or not, um, you know, cuz there might be churches here that don't, that don't have those things built yet, you know? So you gotta, you gotta land something as a distribution. So figure that out. There are some free ones, but it they're all gonna be limited until you start paying for 'em. And so if you're not already paying for one, you can go find a free one, but it, it may take some time to find one that works for free because certain features like automatic, like opt-ins with automatic email triggers, like that often costs a little bit of money, you know? So you just have to be yeah. Kinda aware going into that.

Matt Johnson (43:23):
Yep. Oh absolutely. And, and that's, and then just post that on social to start out and get people to share that organically. Um, especially if you, like, I don't have any money for advertising. Don't worry about advertising right now. So start with some organic, um, ways to do that and build up your social presence, which will help you when you get to the advertising stage and you might have budget.

Nick Clason (43:47):
Hmm. Yeah. And you can, I mean, think about it. You you're in an organization, no matter like, even if you're under a hundred people like that, you have uh, 50, 75, whatever raving fans about you. So ask for their help to get the word out because how many times Matt do you and I like make a decision based off of a word of mouth recommendation, more than Yelp mm-hmm more than the stars on Google. Like if you tell me about a good restaurant, like I'm gonna trust you way more than a restaurant with 505 star reviews. Like I just am. Yep. Cause it that's just, that's just how our brains work for one reason or another. Like we don't all the other people that we don't know don't matter as much to us. Um, but, but you tell me about a good restaurant. I'm like, yeah, I'll try it, you know?

Matt Johnson (44:34):
Yep, exactly. Yeah. So keep that in mind.

Nick Clason (44:37):
Yep. For sure. All right. Any listen, tons of stuff here. Um, we'll try to link all the different examples that we put in there, uh, in the show notes so that you can see, cuz I don't know about you, but I'm visual. So we're talking about eBooks. I wanna show you an example. We're talking about white pages. I wanna show you an example. Um, but any, any other like last parting thoughts around this stuff, Matt, that you have before we, before we sign off?

Matt Johnson (45:02):
Um, no. I mean pick one of these and go, try to, you know, start brainstorming some ideas to get it done. So

Nick Clason (45:10):
Love it. All right guys. Good luck. Let us know how it's going. We'd love to hear from you@hybridministryontwitterhybridministry.xyz is the website and uh, we'd love for you to subscribe to this podcast. Give it a rating, give it a review. And if you found this helpful man, please share it with a friend. Uh, same thing we just said, let people know you found this helpful. So until next time we'll talk to you later. Bye guys.