Follow Us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
Show Notes & Transcripts: http://www.hybridministry.xyz/046
FREE E-Book: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook

SHOWNOTES
THE ARTICLE BEING READ & REFERENCED:
https://youthministry360.com/blogs/all/how-to-be-present-with-your-social-media-presence

MY STUDENT SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.tiktok.com/@crosscreekchurch?lang=en

10 FREE SPIRITUAL PRACTICE TIKTOKS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4n40o5080lblih/Spiritual%20Practice%20TikToks%20-%20Nick%20Clason%20and%20Bailey%20Fore.zip?dl=0

TIMECODES
00:00-02:18 Intro
02:18-07:24 How to be Present with your Social Media Presence
07:24-12:19 How do we Show Up Where our People are Spending their Time?
12:19-12:58 Don't post Announcements on Social Media
12:58-14:01 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hey there everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always, am your host, Nick Clason. Thrilled to be here again with you. And just let me let you know little bit of a shorter podcast today I'm actually gonna do something a little different, a little unique. I recently wrote an article for YM Short for Youth Ministry 360, um, titled How to Be Present With Your Social Media Presence. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop the link to that here in the show notes, but I'm actually just gonna read it for you, um, and also give you some author commentary as I, uh, am reading it through. So expect like a 10, 12 something minute pod. You probably already saw that. If you already downloaded this, if you're on YouTube, welcome in. Glad to have you. Excited to be with you.

Nick Clason (00:48):
And here's why. Honestly, um, this may release the week before, week after, not sure yet in the order. I'm doing a little bit of some batch pre-recording because my family and I are getting ready to go to Disney and I'm looking to just completely unplug from work, from this, from podcast side hustles, all the things I'm doing. Uh, so excited about unplugging, excited about getting ready to send and go and be with my family in Disney. Um, that being said, I, the, the craziest thing about this article is I wrote it, I can't even remember how long in advance, and then it dropped months later. Like I, I wrote it, I know when I lived in Chicago and it dropped just a couple weeks ago now when I'm living here in Dallas. And so my life has changed immensely. And when I heard it, there were elements of it that I was like, oh, that's interesting.

Nick Clason (01:34):
Oh, I don't know if I would've said it that way. And then there are other things I was like, yeah, I definitely still agree with that, you know, so I thought it'd be fun to bring to you all because I wrote it before, I think I wrote it before we even had a podcast going. So these thoughts, like, just think about that. If you've been on this journey with me listening to, to me in your ear ball holes for a while, think about this. These, these thoughts that have been ruminating inside of me and brewing inside of me. Uh, anyway, all that to be said, show notes, hybridministry.xyz. Subscribe to us on YouTube, follow me on TikTok Act place. And Nick also five star review if you would be so inclined. And without any further ado, let's dive into how to be present with your social media presence.

Nick Clason (02:19):
All right, here we go. How to be present with your social media presence. Read by the author himself, Nick Clayson. Here we go. Incarnational ministry. Did I lose anybody yet? Now before you go dust off your lexicon, you probably already know and embrace this as a characteristic in your life and in your ministry, right? Here's the thing. And I said this cuz I knew that, that pastors, youth pastors, who's ever gonna be reading it, primarily, this is a youth pastor. This isn't aside by the way, in case you didn't know primarily youth pastors reading this. They embrace and embody this, this characteristic, this idea of incarnation ministry just may not use it. You know, super frequently in our vocabulary anyway, in the gospels, we see Jesus going to be with his people that he encounters. So if our ministries are going to be a mirror of Christ's incarnation life and incarnation ministry, we are required to go and be with the people that we're ministering to.

Nick Clason (03:16):
And if you and I were youth pastors in the nineties, well we'd probably be found at the mall sitting next to a Chinese restaurant that's handing out free samples of their bourbon chicken and browsing hot topic on our way out the store. You know, you remember, however, if your towns anything like mine, well, the mall I just described as a of it, former of its former self. So where are all the teenagers hanging out? According to some statistics, 45% of Generation Z report that they're online, as they describe it as almost constantly, 45%, 24% of teams report feelings of discomfort if they go more than just one hour without access to the internet. And finally, on average, generation Z allocates two hours and 55 minutes per day on average to social media. So let's just be honest for a minute. The mall has gone to there, and let's be honest and frank, our pockets, it lives on our phones and the students that we're trying to reach and spend their time, they're online.

Nick Clason (04:26):
Regardless of your opinion of whether or not you believe that this amount of screen time is healthy, advantageous, it's probably not. It is where our students are spending the majority of their time. Let's pause for a minute. Um, a quick aside from this, I was in a recent Barna CoLab group on how to disciple Gen Z and their, they're sharing some recent findings, super interesting, super fascinating stuff. One of the things that they shared, um, actually it was a guy that they interviewed from a church and he said, uh, if Generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then generation alpha right behind them. By the way, if you're youth pastor, that is fifth and sixth, seventh, eighth grade, maybe not as high as seventh and eighth grade, but definitely like sixth, fifth, and on down. So they are the youth ministry of the future.

Nick Clason (05:13):
So if generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then that means that generation Alpha is the first digitally dependent generation. Crazy to think about. And so a lot of times, let's be honest with our generational age gap and difference, even as I'm a millennial, even as some fellow millennials, Xers, boomers on up, what is our constant, like, what are we constantly asking generation Z and younger to do? We're asking them to get rid of their phones. We're asking them to disconnect and unplug from technology. And while I think that there's advantages to that and it's advantageous for people to learn the disciplines of being able to break away, find some silence, find some solace and solitude, um, away from social media culture, away from online culture, I think all of that is well and good. I just think that you have a generation that is dependent on it.

Nick Clason (06:06):
It is literally their alarm clock. It's their calendar, it's their actual phone. It's where they communicate with all their friends, whether it be text message, Snapchat, be real, but it's, it's their their map, it's their navigation system. It's the way that they check their grades. It's how they pay for their school lunches. Like it's everything. It's not like, I'll give you this example. I am recording this podcast when I'm recording it in preparation for my trip to Disney World. Everything at Disney World is now online. It's in the my Disney Experience app Genie Plus, which is the replacement of Fast Passes, lightning Lanes, um, checking into my resort, making mobile food orders, like everything is on my phone. And you are at an amusement park with your family trying to unplug, trying to disconnect Bif, do you have to be on your phone? And there are people who are like, I'm done.

Nick Clason (06:56):
I'm not gonna do that. And that's fine. But the reality is we are moving more and more towards that than we are away from that. And so if this generation is dependent upon it, what we have to do is stop villainizing the phone and we have to start looking at it as an opportunity to teach them and disciple them through how to have faith with a phone through that lens. And I think that's my heart in this article, and that's what's coming through. Let's read the next section. So here's a question for you. If in the nineties you would've gone hung out at the mall to connect with students and teenagers, how in 2023, which is one of the articles written, how in 2023 are you showing up where your students are? See, I'm not necessarily proposing that the digital church replaces the in-person experience hybrid far from it.

Nick Clason (07:47):
But if your students go home after school and spend almost three hours on their phones, which is what the statistics told us, then couldn't you make an impact with your students or your people online? All right, so here's some ideas how to do that. If you've been listening to this podcast any length of time you've heard it, I'm gonna say it in idea and then I'm gonna riff on it. So I'm gonna say idea number one, idea number two, so that you're clear, okay, idea number one, share a devotional thought. Guys, you can hold your phone out in front of you and you can give either a recap of, or you can give a completely new and different from, not different cuz come, gonna come from the Bible, hopefully, but different from your sermon or from the lesson that week or whatever the case might be.

Nick Clason (08:29):
You can give just a devotional thought, boom. Hey guys wanna give you quick encouragement, 60 seconds or less. People don't want longer than that. Anyway, you can do a deep dive into an encouraging, um, or challenging passage of scripture. Again, 60 seconds or less. I, I think maybe it was Mark Twain, I'm not sure, but it was him who said, Hey, I wanted to write a short letter but I didn't have time. So I wrote a long letter. See, it takes more time to make something quick, concise, and short. Idea number three, have fun, create fun and funny posts. Hey, if you're not following us on TikTok on our student ministry, I would encourage you to, you can go check it out. We are Cross Creek students. Um, hopefully now we are at Cross Creek students. If not, I may still have it set as at Cross Creek Church cuz TikTok won't let me switch my name over to Cross Creek students, but that's ultimately the goal.

Nick Clason (09:18):
I've had a hard time switching it over. But we do fun and funny posts. I literally, right as I was walking into this spare bedroom of my house to record this podcast, I was literally posting a video of a girl drinking ranch dressing flavored soda and trying to guess the flavor of it. Like it's just fun. And honestly, what I do is I toss out the invite on a youth ministry night. Hey, you wanna be on TikTok tonight? Sure. They all come into the room. I have six bottles of soda with weird flavors. I have a game cud up on my laptop. And another thing with the filter on on TikTok, it gets me like 20 pieces of video content that I just store, bank and pull back out later when I need it in my calendar. Idea number four, film answers to theological questions, right?

Nick Clason (10:02):
People are inspired by answers to deep things that maybe you don't wanna put online, but things that students are dealing with. Like, why do bad things happen? How do I develop a habit? Why, how do I spend time with God even if I don't want to? Why would I go on obeying him and living a life of sinlessness or the goal of that if he's always just gonna forgive my sins? Anyway? You talk about that every week. What's the point of it? What does God think about gay people? Does God require me to be a democrat? Does God require me to be a Republican? What would Jesus think of our current political landscape? You get the idea. Idea number five, encourage spiritual practices and disciplines. I don't know if it's gonna get accepted or if it's out yet, but I recently submitted, if it is, I'll drop a link to it in the show notes.

Nick Clason (10:48):
I recently submitted 10 TikTok videos. Actually, you know what I'm gonna do? It's on ym, um, or I submitted it to d y m I don't know if they took it or not. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop a link, uh, to that resource, the Dropbox resource in the show notes here, completely free charge. Just go grab it and use it. It's, uh, memorize scripture with me. Practice meditation, sit in silence, have a praise break, all kinds of different things. 10 different spiritual practices that that students or people or adults can use. It's not branded. So you can use it. Just download it and post it wherever you, uh, manage social media free for you. Uh, let's see. Are we on six idea number six, you can do recap posts or videos. Just take, literally you only need 3, 4, 5 seconds worth of of videos and you get like 10 of those real fast at the beginning of the night, um, or during your program.

Nick Clason (11:40):
And then you just put 'em into TikTok. Auto cut. Boom. You got a less than 22nd recap video. Phenomenal way to do that. Idea number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, less idea Number seven, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Figure out how to do that on social, whether it's static graphics, whether it's motion graphics, whether it's you talking graphics, whether it's voiceovers, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Finally, you can quiz students on their Bible knowledge. Uh, one of my favorite ways to do this is on the Instagram story editor with the story sticker, uh, uh, multiple choice story sticker. You can put it in there and you can ask them bible questions and test their Bible knowledge. Super fun way to go about doing that. Those are just some ideas to name a few. I don't know your context, but here's one thing that I do know, we're back to the article, is that I want you to notice that not one single idea that I mentioned above was an advertisement for an event.

Nick Clason (12:32):
We've gone into this, if you've listened to me for a while, you've heard this before. But what if we could use social media to encourage students to actually take the next step in their faith to engage with you or with your ministry, to challenge them to deeper more meaningful ways and a more meaningful walk with Jesus. It's not just another communication platform, which is what we often default social media into being. It's a means to help accomplish a more incarnation form of ministry. So that's it, that's the article. Love to know how you are using social media in your ministry context for more than just announcements to encourage people in their faith to show up where they are. But the bottom line is we are rooting for you. We are cheering you on. So glad you're in here. Hey, listen, if you didn't know this, 2023 is the year of short form video content, vertical video, short form content, less than 60 seconds. If you're like, man, I don't even know how to get this word out there, we got you right here. Link the description. If you're watching on YouTube or go grab our 100% completely free e-book titled, have I already ruined my Church's TikTok account? No. But this book will help teach you how to post one from start to finish all the way through doing it all on the phone in your pocket. So we're here for you, rooting you on. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being a loyal listener. And as always, we never forget.

SHOWNOTES
YM360
YM360
http://www.ym360.com
MINISTRY TO PARENTS
https://ministrytoparents.com/
MY YOUTH MIN
https://myyouthmin.com/

TIMECODES
00:00-03:01 Intro
03:01-05:41 The Limitations of Digital Ministry and How to use what we learned from our time in COVID
05:41-11:10 How do we show up to a place teenagers are native to?
11:10-22:00 If you had a crystal ball, how does digital and hybrid ministry need to adjust as we go forward?
22:00-26:55 What resources are available to Youth Pastors?
26:55-27:53 Final encouragement from Kerry to ministry leaders
27:53-31:07 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What is up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. And hey, if you were here for episode, uh, 19, the most recent one that we dropped, it was a part one of an interview with my great friend, um, Kerry Ray, who was on staff at YM 360. He, after 30 years of work inside the local church, has decided to step into more of a role where he's, um, serving the youth pastor, um, and people who are in the trenches doing ministry. So not only does he come with a wealth of personal hands on, boots on the ground, kind of firsthand experience and knowledge of reaching teenagers, um, and seeingDigital Ministry, Contact Work, Relational Ministry, Discipleship, Student Ministry, Youth Ministry, META Church, Streaming Church, TikTok, Social Media life before digital was introduced. Uh, the way he puts it was, um, I'm a digital immigrant versus now doing ministry to people who are digital natives. And so, uh, we're gonna dive into part two of this interview, but I would recommend if you have not heard, go back to part one because he introduces this idea, um, that's not, you know, it's not from him alone, right?

Nick Clason (01:08):
But like, he introduces this idea of a thing called contact work. And contact work is basically the basic premise of going to where people are as opposed to hoping that they will always just come to us, right? If we build it, if it's so beautiful, if it's so shiny and amazing, they will come to us. So he introduces that idea. Um, and now we're gonna kind of explore is that idea of ministry possible, uh, to do digitally. And I would argue that him and I agree for the most part, but I think that, um, we have to sort of like nuance our way into it. Which honestly, it's an interesting dichotomy. And even in having the conversation, I think is how most people feel about digital ministry. I think at a knee jerk reaction, there's this, oh no, you can't do that digitally because discipleship and ministry is best done life on life.

Nick Clason (02:00):
And for the record, I agree with that. Like, I want people that I can physically touch, hug, like sit and eat a knee, have a cup of coffee. Like, here's a great example. Right now, my wife is gone. She's, uh, visiting her mom back home in Ohio. I'm in Texas. We have a relationship. We've video or FaceTimed four times this week, uh, or four times a day, I should say. Um, every day that she's been gone, we've texted late at night, like, we have a relationship, but good grief, like, I wanna give my wife a hug. You know what I mean? Like, there's, it's obviously better together. However, my cell phone is making it possible to remain in contact with my wife. And, and so I think like when you put it that way, you're like, well, yeah, of course. Like, so then how do we add some intentionality?

Nick Clason (02:47):
And we talk about safety, some parameters. What does it look like, um, to do ministry in this way? So I'm really excited for you to check out part two. Again, if you haven't checked out part one, go back and listen to it. Um, and without any further ado, here is part two of our conversation. I mean, honestly, the entire basis right of this podcast is, is what's called the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Because I think what we've learned, at least the way I felt, and I was a part Kerry of an attractional based church during C and so we put together, in my opinion, the best youth ministry online experience that existed. But no one cared because the contact work didn't exist. And so it's, but then what happened right, was this argument, this tug and this tug and pull, like in c everyone was forced to go all the way digital.

Nick Clason (03:37):
And so we all did, we all went all in to the best of our abilities. And then once the restrictions started to lift, the pendulum swung almost so hard because we all saw the effects of not being together and how valuable that is. And so it almost swung like, let's, let's throw the baby out with the bath water and all the good things that we learned from that time period from being fully digital and having, you know, our like proverbial hands tied behind our back. Like I, so I went to a place where a, um, I was a campus student pastor. I didn't speak. Um, and we didn't speak even pre covid. We had a video speaker, um, every week cuz there's universal across all campuses. And I can give you my opinions about that later. But that was, that was one hand tie behind my back.

Nick Clason (04:26):
The second hand tie behind my back was that I wasn't allowed to meet with students. So Ty, what I feel like both hands tie behind my back, all right, now you're the youth pastor here, go do youth ministry. And I was like, how? But that literally forced me right? To just rethink everything. And for literally six months to nine months, I had to navigate that world with both a handstand behind my back. And maybe that is what, and as I'm talking this out with you, maybe that's what has prompted my passion around this because I realized there's some good things you can do digitally, but it can't replace what's done physically. And so I think we gotta find that, that hybrid I think contact, I think, yeah, yeah. At its core happens in person. But think about, you know, when you started out in ministry, you couldn't grab a phone and text that student and be like, Hey, how'd that test go?

Nick Clason (05:20):
You didn't have that. You had to rely on a physical meetup, the football game, youth group, whatever, to make that happen. And so we, we can live in that digital space and bow borrow off the equity that we have from what happens in person. And so how do we enter into there effectively, like you said, cuz that's what Jesus did. He showed up. We can now show up in ways that teenagers are, to your point, native to how do we do that? What are the, what, what does that look like? I think we're all trying to figure that out.

Kerry Ray (05:53):
I, I think we are A couple of things. You, you said one I wanted to say, I don't know if your, your listeners understand or know about you that you walked into a church as a youth pastor, right? As this whole thing started, or that whole thing started. And so immediately you were trying, you, you, they didn't even know who you were. So you were trying to introduce yourself in a digital way, uh, to a group of people who didn't know you at all. Um, and that was interesting. Um, but the other thing you said, um, you mentioned about, um, we snapped back, the pendulum swung back. Mm-hmm. , can we be honest? I think the reason why the pendulum swung back so quickly is because we were so many people were terrible at one of it, at one side of it. Yeah. And it was failing so badly and they were terrible at it.

Kerry Ray (06:40):
Well, it's not familiar. The second well, yeah. And the second that that ended, they they run back to what, you know Yeah. As fast as you can, because I'm terrible at this. So we did, you threw the baby out with the bath water because you were like, one, I'm not good at it. Two, um, nobody likes to do stuff. They're not good. Right. So I'm not good at it. I don't wanna do it. I just wanna get as far away from it as possible. Let's go back to what we know when it was working. Let's go back to the stuff that I was confident in doing. Let's just run back to that. But if Covid showed us anything, it is, there needs to be, to your point, a hybrid. There needs to be both. And there are students that are out there that we can, you know, need to say hello to digitally.

Kerry Ray (07:22):
We do need to learn how to utilize that digital space better. Um, and this is another thing I was thinking as you were, as you were saying that is, you know, in the physical contact work mm-hmm. , there were boundaries and rules. Um, uh, especially in ministry. You know, you, you had, there's, there were certain things you could do and you, there were certain things you put boundaries on and said, Hey, contact work means this. It does not mean, you know, driving a female or even a male by yourself and go, oh yeah, that's contact work. No, that's, that's potential jail time. That's what that is. . Um, so you don't, you don't do those things. I think in digital. Um, you mentioned texting a student, Hey, how'd that test go? Mm-hmm. . Um, I know with our small group leaders, they were very nervous mm-hmm. and still are.

Kerry Ray (08:12):
Cause we don't know the boundaries. Um, do you text a student? Is that okay? Um, because what if their parent is not cool with, um, you know, a 35 year old texting a 14 year old mm-hmm. . Um, how was your day? Um, you know, that can, that can kinda be weird. Uh, so there are some boundaries there. Do you hang out? You know, I can go to a football, I can go to a middle school football game and I could be there as a student pastor and I can see my kids that I see, I can meet their friends. This, there again, young life does a great job of this. You know, I can be intentional about meeting people. I'm in a public space. There's other people around. Yep. That is very different than me logging into Call of Duty intentionally and playing in a chatroom of, you know, a bunch of 14 year old guys and girls that I don't know.

Nick Clason (09:06):
Yeah.

Kerry Ray (09:06):
That's, that's different. And maybe the digital immigrant in me has that trigger goes, this is weird. Yeah. Uh, maybe that's the digital immigrant in me versus the digital native, but there's some oddity there. And so we've gotta figure out not just a balance of how do we, how do we engage that way, but what are the boundaries? What are the best practices? What are the safety protocols that need to be in place in a digital format to where you're not the weirdo, you're not the weird old guy or the weird old girl hanging out, you know, in a chatroom or in a, in a digital space. Um, the internet has been great, but it's also shown us that it's highly dangerous and that it is full of predators. And not to say that the football, the middle school football game stands, that there's not predators out there as well sitting in those, in those bleachers.

Kerry Ray (10:02):
But it's, society sees it differently in a digital space. Um, because right now that is where a lot of the ugly stuff is happening. Um, so all that to say is we don't need to abandon it. We do need to be careful. Mm-hmm. , we do need to engage, but to do it with boundaries and guidelines in place. And we need to, if you're in the church world, you need to set your people up well because they don't know. And they're trying to do what you're, you're telling them, Hey, do contact work. Hey, engage, Hey, be a part of these, these students' lives. And they do. But you gotta give them the boundaries of the protocol so that they know and they have confidence in how to interact in that digital space. One, they're already digital native more than likely. And two, it's an awkward space that they're unfamiliar with. And three, they need to feel safe. Just like if you sent them into a football game and said, Hey, I want you to hit at least one football game. Here's what you do in that space. Here's what you don't do in that space. You need to do the same thing with them in a digital context.

Nick Clason (11:10):
Yeah. So, from the seat you're sitting in now, um, what, if anything, like do you see about how covid, digital, hybrid, any of that stuff, how is it influencing and impacting ministry leaders? Cause you're sitting in a unique seat where you are helping serve the type of person that you were for the last 30 years. So what are you noticing? What are you hearing? What are the pain points? What are people asking? What are people trying to figure out? What are things that you're seeing? And then what do you maybe envision or see as, uh, a future maybe, maybe in like a year, but also maybe in the next five, 10 years of ministry, student ministry and all that stuff?

Kerry Ray (11:55):
Yeah. What I'm seeing is I get to speak to youth pastors in multiple states, in multiple denominations. Um, people who have been doing it for 20 plus years, 10 years. I was at Arkansas this past weekend and a room of, you know, 25, 30 guys and girls, um, who do youth ministry. And, um, there were some that were full-time. There were some that were, you know, part-time. There were some that were bivocational. Um, there were some that had been doing this for 10 years, eight years, 20 years. And then a couple of the couple of them are like, yeah, this is month three. Yeah. Um, , you just go, woo. Um, but I think they're all struggling with the same thing, which is what we've been talking about this whole time, is how to balance, um, how to juggle the digital aspect versus the physical aspect and, and what is contact work and how to, how do I create things that people wanna be a part of that students wanna be a part of?

Kerry Ray (12:55):
How do I program? Um, you know, a lot of 'em are just trying to figure out, how do I do any of this? I'm just winging it. How do I get support and momentum and, um, those pieces without even the digital piece involved. Um, but yeah, that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing people struggling. I'm seeing people trying to navigate this return from shut down to non shut and the, and the damage that has been done in the, in, in that. And I am seeing people try to figure out how to engage in a new way, a new group of people, um, being, you know, this, this group of, um, of Gen Z students who are still around, and then this incoming crop of generation alpha students who are currently, uh, sixth, seventh. And depending on the age, you've got a couple eighth graders that are young ones mm-hmm. .

Kerry Ray (13:48):
Um, but just trying to, how, how do I, how do I engage them? How do we, how do we, um, provide them with, with the things they need? And there again, I know this has nothing to do with digital, but what I'm really seeing the most, uh, in the youth ministry space is the audience has shifted so much in that culturally it's a different world. Um, there's a lot more questions. They're open to a lot more things. They, um, and, and pastors are trying to figure out, for example, you know, how do you teach in a ministry context? How do you teach a teenager about the word of God? Which is absolute truth when the generation doesn't believe in such a thing is absolute truth. Mm-hmm. , how do you do that? Um, how do you, you know, how do you, so many youth pastors are preaching about characters in the Bible or things that were happening scripturally.

Kerry Ray (14:45):
And they'll say, you know, well, well, Moses, so and so and so and so and so and so as if the people listening to them know who that is, is without stopping to say, let me tell you who this is, because they're, again, the nuns in os they were raised by a group of parents who didn't grow them up in, in scripture. So they don't know. And so our, our mistake is, or the mistakes I'm seeing, or pastors speaking in a, in a phrase like, say, like I said, well, Moses, you know Moses, they don't, yeah. They're like, yeah, the guy with the boat, they're like, no, that's Noah

Nick Clason (15:16):
,

Kerry Ray (15:17):
But we have to pause. We have to slow down and teach mm-hmm. . And I think we have to do that. I think technology, um, Instagram, social media, TikTok, I, I love, I love, and I hate what I'm seeing right now on TikTok. Um, and if you're not on TikTok, you need to at least look at it. Mm-hmm. . Um, if I can encourage, if a youth pastor's listening, if I can encourage you, I know it's, you know, it's the devil. I get it. But at least be familiar with it. Yeah. At least engage. And I know your church probably has a stance on it. And, and I'll warn you, there's things, you're gonna see some stuff on there. That algorithm is incredible. Um, you only need to pause for a second and it'll feed you more of that. Um,

Nick Clason (15:59):
So yeah, listen, here's the best TikTok hack, by the way. If you start it and they start feeding you stuff you don't want, hold your, hold the video down, click, not interested, do that two or three times and it's gone forever. Like I'm telling you, can, you can game that algorithm, uh, the way each can, the way you'll, you want,

Kerry Ray (16:17):
I'll see a better TikTok hack. Don't sign up for an account

Nick Clason (16:21):
or

Kerry Ray (16:22):
That, cause that way every time you, every time you log off the, turn the app off, you turn it back on, you get the most stuff. It's new every time. Um, but what, what I was gonna say about, about TikTok was some of the greatest things I'm seeing is, is student ministries, youth pastors, pastors utilizing that technology and teaching theology. Yeah. And, and, and, um, you know, there's a couple guys that do like the, you know, one minute sermon, um, and stuff that excellent content mm-hmm. this, the negative side of that is I'm seeing that the same thing with terrible theology mm-hmm. . Um, and I would say that group of people are using it very well. And our students, there, again, keep in mind your kids don't know the difference. They don't. Yeah. Um, and so they're watching things on TikTok that are, let's call it, you know, 30% true.

Kerry Ray (17:22):
Uh, and then it just kinda hangs, hangs hangs the right or hangs the left and, and goes crazy. Um, you know, I watched somebody the other day talking about, you know, Jesus, you know, Jesus's name wasn't Jesus. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, good. This is good. And then they kept going. They kept going. They like, so Jesus wasn't really God, he was just the, and I'm like, oh, no, no, because it started off, it started off really strong and going, yeah, this is good. This is good. Let's teach them these things. You know, there weren't really three wise men as far as we know. There were, there were wise men that showed up. Great. Great. So, you know what they were, they were really these things. They were Illuminati No, they were not Illuminati. You know, just, just crazy stuff. Um, where do I think it's going?

Kerry Ray (18:08):
I I definitely think, you know, the, the, those of us who are digital, uh, immigrants we're aging out. Um, more and more digital natives. Um, that's the way the world works, right. You know, more kids are being born more, more babies and children are being handed iPhones and iPads as pacifiers and are growing up with it. And that is a thing. And it can be good or it can be bad. And, and I guess my biggest takeaway would be, or challenge would be this, don't build a moat. There's no mo big enough. Whether you're talking to parents or whether you're trying to do your own ministry piece. Don't build a moat and try to protect everybody from technology. That's, it's foolish. You're not, that's, that's not a winnable battle. No. Um, I think what we need to focus on is redeeming that culture and redeeming technology and saying, how can I take what is, what is, how can I take who these students are and meet them where they are versus where we wish they were?

Kerry Ray (19:11):
Um, meet them where they are and redeem this technology and utilize it in a way for the glory of God and for, for the, for the right reasons. The right purposes. And try to try to really point to him using technology and use it to reach students. Use it to disciple students. Use it to, um, bring and share Jesus to students who may never, ever step foot in your church door, but they may be scrolling through TikTok and just happened to come across a video where you talk about this God man who loved you so much that he gave himself for you on your behalf, so that you could have eternal life. And it may, here's what I find interesting about students in this generational speech that we're in right now. There's no reason for a teenager to show up to the things you're doing.

Kerry Ray (20:05):
Mm-hmm. , there's just no reason for it. Yeah. But they still are. They're showing up to these things. And it's not because you got a great Instagram account. They're showing up to these things because they have an internal intrinsic curiosity about spiritual things that I believe that God has placed in them from creation to seek him out. Yeah. And they're showing up because that curiosity is itching and they're trying to figure out a way to scratch it. And they're just curious enough to still listen and use, use Instagram and TikTok all you want, but use it to scratch that curiosity in them that is God given. And let God be God and God do the things. We don't save people anyway. We never have, we haven't done it physically and we're not gonna do it digitally. Um, that's not, that's not for us, but utilize the, the tools that we have in front of us to continue to do the things that we are called to doop.

Kerry Ray (21:06):
Um, so yes, technology is out there. It is, it is doing its thing. Um, don't run from it. Don't build a mote to protect people from it, whether they're your own kids or not. Utilize it. Teach people how to use it. Teach people how to be safe with it. Set your volunteers up to utilize it. Well give them boundaries. Help them to, to do this thing well. Um, you know, show them how to do it and show your church how to do it. Show all the digital immigrants how to do it. Um, and lead, lead there. Lead from lead from the backseat. Um, especially if you're watching this, listen to this. Sorry. If you're listening to this as a, as a digital, uh, native, help people learn how to do this and to do it right. And to do it well. And not to be afraid of it. Cause I think the biggest thing is fear. Um, but yeah. Mean, sorry, man. I got, I've got on my soapbox for a minute, but

Nick Clason (21:58):
No, that was really good. I just, that was a great, that was a great place to land it. Why don't you, uh, you know, this has been a very youth ministry centric conversation, which admittedly so, and we, we let you guys know that at the beginning. Tell 'em about, uh, everything, you know, what, how can they engage with stuff over at YM 360. What are some of the resources that you, you all are producing to help, to help people in this space right now?

Kerry Ray (22:20):
Yeah. For, um, we, we create things. Our, our whole point is to make the things, to make youth ministry youth pastors wear a lot of hats. It's, it's hard. Um, I told those guys in girls in Arkansas, uh, this past weekend, youth ministry's harder than it's ever been. And it's not easy. Yeah. But we have more opportunity than we've ever had had because there are so many blank canvases out there who don't know. There's not a lot of, um, church baggage in teenagers right now, cuz they never went. Um, they read about it, they see it online, but, you know, they see people deconstructing and talking about it, but they don't have it themselves. A lot of them, because they, they haven't engaged yet. So, gosh, there's so much out there. Um, and why do sixty.com if you wanna check that out? Uh, there's tons of resources, uh, for you.

Kerry Ray (23:10):
There's, we post blog articles every single Monday. You can check out that kinda stuff. Um, I think that the, the best things that you can be a part of right now that we work on is we have two big platforms that we put out every month. New content for one of those is called ministry parents.com, ministry to parents.com. And it's not for parents, it's for you to help parents. So if you're in ministry, uh, and you're trying to help equip parents to be better parents in their home and to be, and to help those no e s's raise students in a way that points them to Jesus, um, we provide you with all the stuff. We do it all for you. Uh, we write all your emails, we, we curate all the content for you. It's really just point and click and paste and send.

Kerry Ray (24:00):
And we do it all for you. Uh, all of us know that we're supposed to partner with parents. None of us really know what that means. Um, and so and so we're trying to figure it out. And you know, what usually keeps us as student pastors from it is either we don't have kids of our own. And we go, well, I'm not legit. There's no way I'm gonna look at a parent and go, you know what you should do with that 14 year old? Cause they're gonna look at me and go, yeah, you tell me about that buddy. Or by the time we are legitimate, we realize that curating content for parents as far as what they need is a full-time job. Yep. And we can't do all that. And so that's what ministry parents does. Ministry parents.com. And then we just launched a brand new platform for training and development of youth pastors, um, that talks about all of this kind of stuff on the regular, every month we provide you with, gosh, 2026 plus pieces of content that's brand new every month that talks about everything from volunteers to parents, to technology, to other disruptors that are in that you're dealing with.

Kerry Ray (25:04):
Um, the whole point of it is to help you grow, lead and thrive in ministry. It is, it is all about developing you as a person. Um, you could check that out as well. It is my youth min.com, my youth min.com. It is, it is worth it. It's worth checking that out. Um, all those are subscription based stuff, but it's, it's not expensive. So whether you're full-time, part-time, uh, big church, small church, um, multi-site, multi staff, or you're flying solo, um, it is something that you can utilize. Um, and anytime, you know, my I am available, like I said, I tell people all the time, let me be that guy. Let me be the person that when you're struggling and you need somebody to talk to, when you are excited, when you're new and, and going, I don't know if this is the right way to do this or not, uh, I'm available.

Kerry Ray (25:54):
And, and more than happy to talk to you, I, I stepped out a student ministry proper to take this YM 360 role to give myself the ability to have these conversations like we're having the day, uh, with youth pastors, youth workers, uh, all over the place. So my email address is Kerry kr y com. Um, or you can catch me on Twitter and Instagram, uh, K R two, and then the letter you k um, I, I don't have TikTok. I just have a blank account so I can keep up with what's going on, but nobody wants to see me do Renegade or any of the dances anyway, so I know Charlie de that's, it's true, it's true. I should be on Dancing With the Stars, but I'm a, I'm no TikTok dancer day. So Yeah, day one day it's my aspiration. . Uh, yeah. So please, please hit me up and lemme hear from you. Any questions you ever have, anything you ever need, or if you just need to be encouraged and say don't, because here's, here's the deal, Nick, I just want people to know that there's less people joining into the student ministry rights than there used to be. Hmm. And, uh, we need more people than ever before. And so, yeah.

Kerry Ray (27:10):
You know, um, gosh, I'm going blank on that. Josh ship is the guy who said, you know, every student needs one caring adult. Yeah. Every student is one caring adult away from being a success. Um, and so, man, we need so many caring adults out there who are willing to see students, to love students where they are versus where they wish they were. That's good. And, and just to jump in and say, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm willing to let somebody show me the ropes. So

Nick Clason (27:43):
This stuff, man. Hey, I appreciate it. Thanks for your, uh, absolutely your time today from, uh, Birmingham Hotel Room. It's been great.

Kerry Ray (27:51):
. Thank you very much, man. Thanks for having me.

Nick Clason (27:55):
Wow. Well, man, I hope that you guys found that interesting and fascinating. Uh, hey, uh, in the show notes, wherever you get podcasts, you should be able to, uh, see the links to all the things that Kerry was talking about and all the resources that are available. If you are not a youth pastor, thank you for sitting through just a couple of old timey youth pastors chatting up, doing ministry, talking about ministry. But if you know someone who is in, in particular, man, I would really encourage you to share with him the ministry to parent and the, um, my Youth men, um, platform. Share those links with them. It's something that can be really, really helpful. Uh, we talked about this a little bit, um, off off Mike, Kerry and I, well, once we hung up. But my youth min, honestly, guys, it is conference level training.

Nick Clason (28:42):
And so if you're a youth pastor and you're in a small church without a giant budget, like it's behind a paywall, however, it is far cheaper than if you got a plane, got a hotel, um, and paid for a conference ticket somewhere across country or whatever, and you have access to it. Like, I don't know if you heard, he's like 20 something pieces of new content every single month. So there is conference level training very available at your fingertips, very accessible. Um, and so that's a budget saver, you know, and so I think leaders who wanna be learning, um, are growing super helpful. So check that out for sure. I am a, I'm a contributor to it, so, um, shamelessly love to have you check it out. Um, but anyway, uh, appreciate you guys, uh, listening. And if you're anything like me and you listen to podcasts on the go, I do it when I'm, I'm running, I do it when I'm driving, and I do it when I'm on the lawn doing the dishes.

Nick Clason (29:37):
The reality is, um, Kerry said so much good stuff in there and I would hate, hate for you to miss it. And so we, for free provide, uh, transcripts for every single episode. You can check those out at hybridministry.xyz or just, uh, read through it in your podcast catcher so that you're able to just see what's going on and, uh, hear what's going on and maybe take some notes, um, and take some of the things that you heard in your ears and put it to paper if you need it. Um, for conversations or for meetings with, uh, upper level leadership or whatever the case may be. We just wanna serve you and help you win in your area of ministry. So you can check that out at hybridministry.xyz. We're also on Twitter at hybrid ministry. We'd love to have you come hang out with us. And hey, listen, if you found this helpful one way that you could really help us out, um, a gigantic favor for us would just be male.

Nick Clason (30:26):
If you could give us a like, or a rating or a review, that would be very beneficial, help us pay it forward, um, and help you maybe pay it forward even to some other people who, who wanna help uncover and find this information. So, once again, grateful for you, thankful for you. Um, hope you guys have a great rest of your day, wherever you are, whatever you might be doing, and we pray that this is helping, um, make digital discipleship just a little bit easier for you in your ministry context. Until next time, talk to you later guys. Bye.

SHOWNOTES
YM360
http://www.ym360.com
MINISTRY TO PARENTS
https://ministrytoparents.com/
MY YOUTH MIN
https://myyouthmin.com/
EPISODE 016 ON HOW THE IPHONE CHANGED THINGS WITH DERRY PRENKERT
https://merry-swamp-3547.fireside.fm/016

TIMECODES
00:00-02:49 Intro
02:49-05:55 Kerry's Intro and Experience
05:55-09:12 What it's like no longer being in the trenches of ministry
09:12-13:44 What was life in ministry like before the cell phone and after?
13:44-16:22 Is technology what created FOMO?
16:22-21:00 What is contact work?
21:00-32:58 Can we use technology to our advantage in ministry efforts?
32:58-34:27 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Hey, what is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, episode 19. We've been doing 19 of these. I can't freaking believe it in your catcher. It might be 20, because we posted as Double Zero pilot. I kind of hate when people do that, and then I, I went and did it. So, anyway, uh, as always, I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be with you. And today you're in for a treat because number one, I'm not just gonna ramble in your ear holes the entire time, like I have been for the last several episodes, but two, I'm bringing on one of my really good friends. His name is Kerry Ray. He is the director of editing and publications right now at YM 360, which is, YM Youth Min, right? Youth Ministry 360. And he has 30 years of church ministry experience, particularly in the student ministry and youth ministry space.

Nick Clason (00:58):
So, let me caveat all of that to say this is a ministry podcast, not specific in particular to youth ministry. However, that being said, um, you know that I am a 12 year youth ministry veteran, and so a lot of my connections and conversations come in the youth ministry space. And so, um, I just will caveat all this to say that today is going to be a very youth ministry centric conversation. Um, but all of it is going to be couched sort of in, uh, digital, right? And, and so what Kerry is gonna be talking about, um, and what I did is I, we had an interview and it went really well, and it went really long. And so I decided, I think I'm actually gonna bite, uh, split this up into two more bite size pieces. And so, episode one is gonna come out this week, episode two, or part two of this, I should say, is gonna drop on Thanksgiving Day, so you can enjoy it on the way to your, um, grandmother's house over the river and through the woods.

Nick Clason (01:59):
So in this first part in particular, he's gonna talk a little bit about his experience, um, what he's seen and how he's seen digital play a role in that. And then he talks about, um, a thing that I first learned from him, but he says he's still primarily from young Life called contact work, right? And if you've been around this podcast at all, you've known, we talked about showing up where they are, um, which is what Jesus did, honestly, right? He, he showed up where we were, he put on skin, he became human. And so that's what he talks about, and he kind of gives the basis for it and why it's important. Um, and so that's gonna be today. Um, so hopefully you enjoy it. And so, without any further ado, we're gonna get started. And you'll notice just how well I am as a host when we plan this thing, when you hear how we get started. So here we go. 3, 2, 1. Check it out. Hey,

Kerry Ray (02:50):
Is whoa gonna go first on,

Nick Clason (02:53):
Man? Come on. Doesn't even listen to instructions.

Kerry Ray (02:57):
I did. I thought you said, I'll do a thing later. And then you go ahead and introduce

Nick Clason (03:02):
Yourself. I'm keeping all this in. This is Kerry, everybody. Kerry, introduce yourself to the tens and tens of listeners that I have.

Kerry Ray (03:10):
Hey, tens of listeners. My name is Kerry Ray. I am the director of publishing for Y M 360 in Birmingham, Alabama. Uh, YM 360 Youth Ministry 360. Uh, before that, uh, this is my first year actually as a director of publishing, whatever that means. Uh, I did, uh, before that, I did, uh, right about three decades in the student ministry seat, um, in multiple denominations of churches, in churches, multiple states, uh, different sizes, churches, different size, not sizes, different size churches, um, multisites single sites, uh, single sites that wanted to be multisite, uh, . I've been, I've been around the block and, and seen a lot of things, man. Um, but yeah, I've been in the youth ministry for right at 30 years. And, um, this was my first, actually at the time of this recording, this was my, this last Easter was my first Easter, uh, in, in here in 2022, was my first Easter in 30 years, not to be on staff at a church.

Kerry Ray (04:15):
So it was quite the different thing to sit in there as a regular person who could see all the things going wrong, but uh, was not responsible for, for fixing any of them. Um, and so it was great. It was, it was really great. Um, it's weird now on Saturday nights after, you know, you get in a routine for 30 years. Uh, Saturday nights are kind of a weird thing because you go to church on Sunday mornings, but you're not going to work, you know, to do all the things. Um, so, and you go with a family on, on a Sunday morning, it's whole thing. Just a different world, man. So I've, uh, like I said, I've been, I got to wife 360 in October of 2022, um, and started a, a new thing. We, we work in, uh, Y 360, if you don't know, we're, we're part, um, publishing.

Kerry Ray (05:06):
And, uh, we create content for student ministries, youth ministries, all over the world to use. Um, and we also do camps. We have a, a generate by Y 360, uh, which does camp all across different locations. We had this last summer, summer of 2022. We, I believe we were in 20, 23 or 24 locations, um, running camps, 20. We had three different teams spread out all over. Uh, so it was great. My, my section of that, we create all of the, uh, written material, all the devotional material, all of the, um, all the written material for camps. Um, so yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's very different. And then I get to, uh, coach student ministries, youth pastors, all across the place. Um, I've been doing that for around seven years, so, yeah. Nice. Yeah. Lot of fun. Lot of fun.

Nick Clason (05:59):
So let me ask you this, just, this isn't one of the questions I sent you. I'm already going off script, but, uh, do you enjoy Saturday nights and Sunday mornings not being responsible for stuff, or is there like an element of you that misses it at all?

Kerry Ray (06:15):
Oh, absolutely. I think anytime you do something for a significant amount of your life, um, there's a part of you that missed that, um, that misses, um, you know, just being around and, and, and knowing all the faces and knowing who's where. And, um, yeah, there's just part of it that you kind of miss a little bit of it. There's some part, and maybe this will make sense for some of you listening who've done anything for a significant amount of time, there's parts that you miss that you don't know why you miss, or you don't even know what you miss. You just say something's weird and off and just seems a little different. Um, yeah. But yeah, there, there's pieces and parts. There's definitely pieces and parts that I don't miss.

Kerry Ray (06:56):
You know, I don't miss, you know, being gone all day on a Sunday. Um, I don't miss, um, I the whole getting to be a part like you go as a family and do stuff with as a family, uh, that's really brand new. Yeah. Um, and, and it's, it's been great. My, my kids, I, my wife and I have two kids. We have an eight year old and a 14 just turned 14 a couple days ago. And so this is such a significant time in both of their lives mm-hmm. that it is great to be, you know, just a dad and not a staff member. Um, and to get, to get to sit in, I'll tell you, you know, a little bit of a confession. It's also difficult. Um, we're at a smaller church now, and, um, having been in large church ministry for so long, um, now that my daughter is participating in ministry, and, you know, that ministry is, you know, trying to figure itself out and mm-hmm. and, and go through all the, you know, all the growing pains of, of a growing ministry. And I'm sitting on the sidelines and thinking, gosh, , that's awkward. I can help that, but I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna white knight, you know, come in when my, on my high horse and, and quote unquote fix it for them. Especially with,

Nick Clason (08:16):
You're fixing it as the YM 360 guy. Are you fixing it as Madison dad, as dad? Are you fixing it as a church volunteer? Like, what, yeah. What's

Kerry Ray (08:26):
Your role, right? Or are you fixing as the guy that quote unquote knows it all right. So, you know, you don't, you don't wanna be that guy. Um, so yeah, it's, it's just been, it's been weird. That's, that's kind of the honest thing is to have done a thing, and I think this is true at anything, not just ministry, but having, you know, if you were, if you were a cabinet maker and you walked in and people were, you know, fumbling around with a hammer trying to build a cabinet, and you're just biting your, you know, biting your closed fist, going, oh, no, that's not how you, you do it . Um, so it, it's that, I mean, and not saying that they're not doing a great job. Um, they are, they're doing well in figuring it out. They're just, you know, figuring it out. Um, and they're going through some, some growing pain in that process. So yeah, that's, that's what we're doing as a family right

Nick Clason (09:13):
Now. So I'm, I'm curious, Kerry, like two or three episodes ago, I'll link it, you know, in the show notes, but I had, uh, my friend d Pinker on, and we talked about, um, how he, he has a similar longevity track record that you do, and he talked about how the invention of the iPhone was a pretty monumental, like, milestone marker for him in youth ministry. Like he kinda remembers ministry before the invention, um, and widespread use of the iPhone, and then post the invention and widespread use of the iPhone. Do you have, would you say you have a similar, um, experience with that? Like, did you, did you notice that being a pretty big milestone thing in student ministry and in your career noticing how students interacted? Did that change things? Did you, um, have to program or think about things differently because of technology and it's, you know, interwoven into the culture?

Kerry Ray (10:11):
Um, honestly, I, I think the iPhone changed not programming so much as it changed, um, advertising. And I know that's a big no-no word. You know, in the church world, you're not supposed to see the things you're doing as a quote unquote product or something you are promoting. Um, but you are, you're, you're promoting a thing, um, come be a part of this, whether it's a camp, a Wednesday night, a Sunday morning, you are trying to tell people this is a thing we have, um, otherwise you're sitting there by yourself. Um, and so I think it changed, I think it changed dramatically how we engaged with, with students. Hmm. , um, I don't think so much at all. It, it really changed programming. Um, but it definitely changed the way we engaged. It definitely changed, um, the level of intentionality that you had to put behind, uh, promotion and how you promoted and how you celebrated.

Kerry Ray (11:15):
Uh, it also gave you kind of an open door, you know, whether you want it to be or not. A lot of youth ministry is word of mouth. Yeah. Um, I always used to kinda call it the skating rink effect when I was a kid. You know, the skating rink was, was a thing. , sadly, that'll show you my age. The skating rink was a thing, and we didn't, in middle school specifically, you didn't know why it was a thing. Yeah. You just knew that's where everybody was. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, but it was word of mouth, you know? It was, it wasn't the, the skating rink when I grew up, the skating, it was called fun time, skate land. Uh, it wasn't that fun time. Skateland had this giant marketing, you know, this this monumental system or this, this thing that they were doing. They were like, come to fun time.

Kerry Ray (12:01):
It was just, it was word of mouth. And the middle school, you know, that that's where everybody was going on on a Friday night. They were going to fun time. And you talked about it in the hallways, and people do, and I think in cinema ministry, whether we want it to be or not, it, it's always been a word of mouth. You know, I'm, you know, why do, why do so many kids show up to this one event, this all nighter that you do? Well, because the word got out that these people are going and the other people wanna go. And then it snowballs into this thing. Um, and I think the word of mouth became digital. Word of mouth. Um, and you could, you could digitally have a megaphone to, to broadcast that thing versus just relying on word of mouth. Yeah. Um, and so that changed the game.

Kerry Ray (12:47):
So it changed. Um, the only thing I would say in programming, uh, uh, that it would change was that you had to be, or you started to be a little more intentional about recording the things that you were doing mm-hmm. and putting them out there for people to see later. Yeah. Uh, and to advertise with. Um, that's probably the only way it really changed. And I would say it changed programming. It would just, Hey, we want to capture certain things. And so we would talk about, as a team, uh, what are the things we wanna maybe capture tonight and, and broadcast so that people can see it and try to leverage the fomo, you know, the, the, that FOMO piece mm-hmm. is, is a real deal, the invention of the iPhone, Instagram, now TikTok, um, even, even be, you know, be real. It is that FOMO piece of what's happening in the moment. Who's doing what, Ooh, I wanna be a part of that. Mm-hmm. , that's what changed. I think that's what changed.

Nick Clason (13:45):
So would you say before that, that fomo for someone my age, who's only done ministry in an iPhone generation, is fomo a recent phenomenon since the invention of technology and things like that? Or was that always a part of it? Now you just can see it with your own eyes that you Oh, you're right now missing out.

Kerry Ray (14:07):
Yeah. No, FOMO has always existed. Um, it wasn't called that, but you know, there was always that, you know, nobody wants to be left out. Everybody wants to be, um, they did say it for hundreds, hundreds of years. They've been saying for years, you know, that, um, when you walk into a building, but think about yourself anytime, iPhone or not, you walk into a restaurant in a busy time of the day for a restaurant mm-hmm. , and you're the, there's maybe one other person in the restaurant. There's something inside of you that goes, it could be the greatest restaurant ever. It could be the best food, best atmosphere, but there's something inside you that intrinsically goes, huh, yeah, something's wrong. What's wrong with this, this ? And, and I think that's, I think that's who we are as, as human beings. When you walk into a store, there's nobody shopping there. When you, when you go to a gym and you work and there's, you're what, what's midnight? That's if you're doing it in a time where typically there would be people there, whether we walk into a church now, um, and there's, you know, there's nobody really attending. You go, huh? When you walk outta that, you don't say, you know, man, that was great. You go, man, that was great. I wonder why nobody goes.

Nick Clason (15:27):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, right? Cause none of that's based on the actual content maybe. Nope. Of like, oh, that was a great message I really resonated with, or whatever. Like what you're noticing is like the social equity landscape of like, what's going on around you, looking around, no one's there. And

Kerry Ray (15:44):
It is a thing, and it is a thing. I think that thing has always existed. And I think whether it's the iPhone or social media, um, has just exacerbated that and made it, yeah. A more prominent thing turned the volume up, if you will, uh, has made it a more prominent thing, more obvious thing. Um, the, but I think it's always been there. Uh, I think it's, you know, when you were eight years old and didn't get invited to a birthday party and you knew other people did mm-hmm. , that's, you had fomo, you were missing out. Um, I think that's just a, a human thing.

Nick Clason (16:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So you and I connected, you were at a church in Cincinnati. I was at a church in Cincinnati, and we were on the doorstep of working together. Um, and so in that process, I guess, I mean, I guess it was even formal. We had formal interviews and stuff. Um, you explained to me, uh, a thing that, I don't know if you came up with this or coined it or whatever, but you called it contact work. Um, so explain a little bit to our listeners, like what that is, where it comes from, maybe the theological or biblical basis for it. Um, and, uh, like then I wanna kind of explore, is that type of work, is that type of ministry, is that possible more and more as we enter into this digital space? But first of all, give us just a little bit of like a background of like, what is it, um, what are you talking about with contact work? I think when I heard it, I never heard it called that, but it was very intrinsic to me. Like, I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense, right? As a youth pastor, like, this is what I'm trying to do. I just never kind of put this label to it. So explain that a little bit.

Kerry Ray (17:32):
Yeah. Well, I definitely did not, uh, coin the phrase contact work. Um, that is, um, I served for a while, um, in young life, and that is a, that is a big, big piece of young life. If anybody's listening who has ever been a part or knows anything about young life, contact work is one of their core tenants. Um, they put a lot of, a lot of energy and effort and strategy

Nick Clason (18:00):
Into Andre good at contact work. That's, that's probably what they're best, I would say.

Kerry Ray (18:04):
Oh, they're, yeah, they're excellent at it. And it's because they value it. It's such a high value, um, for them. Like I said, it's one of their core tenants. Um, it's such a high value that they do it well. Um, and so borrowing that phrase from those guys, um, I just learned it and saw it done really well and saw it valued. Um, and so I, I kind of adopted it into early on into, um, what I was doing, and it was, it was going where they are versus expecting them to come to you. Hmm. Um, contact work at, at its core is, uh, young life would call it earning the right to be heard. Um, but it is, or maybe you hear them say, um, doing things on their turf mm-hmm. , um, so to speak. But basically it is, it is going to where the students are mm-hmm. versus sitting and expecting them to come to you, and then you're putting in the time with them in their places where they feel comfortable and confident, and where they maybe kinda run the show versus your place behind these walls, behind this door where you're in charge and are expecting them to, to do certain, certain things. Um, contact, contact work. Oops, sorry. Contact work is something that is something that we have done for years. It's an expectation.

Kerry Ray (19:37):
Sorry, my headphones went out for a second.

Nick Clason (19:40):
Oh, no, you're good. Contact work is sounds great to me. So,

Kerry Ray (19:42):
Okay. Contact work is, is something that, um, I have, you know, expected is the best word to use of any staff we have I've ever had on, on a, on a church staff. Um, it is, it's that big of a deal. Um, for example, when I had interns and, you know, we were only allowed, you know, what, 15 hours with an intern mm-hmm. mm-hmm. 10 of those hours with contact work, and I would ask them to, you know, fill out a form that tells me where they were going, what they were doing, who they, who they hung out with and talked to. Mm-hmm. , it was that big of a deal. I wanted them to value it. Um, that's when I first started in ministry. Early on, we didn't call it that. Um, but that was my role. Um, I had an older youth pastor who kinda looked at me and sat me down and said, Hey man, I, I'm too old to go run with the Bulls. Um, so , I'm gonna ask you to do that, and I'm gonna expect you to be in the school. I'm gonna expect you to be the one at the games. I'll still be the guy preaching, but, and you know, teaching, teaching you how to do those things, but, you know, you're the guy that's gonna run around with 'em. You can call it Tide Piper, whatever you wanna call it, but it is going and building relationships with students, with teenagers on their turf where they are at instead of expecting them to come to you.

Nick Clason (21:02):
Yeah. I think, and I think, like for me, man, the basis really of me starting this whole podcast is realizing that, uh, digital can play a role in that. You know, I think for churches, a lot of churches, uh, get stuck into their, like, programming schedule. It's Wednesday night, Sunday morning, whatever, and not realizing that there's another 167 unclaimed hours that students are living life doing their thing. Um, you know, so that can obviously be done in person, but how would you say, have you seen that be either possible, or would you say like, yeah, that's not even really a possibility, uh, to show up on their turf in like a digital or more of like a hybrid type of way?

Kerry Ray (21:53):
Lemme back up for a second first, and I can say that one, it's, it's part of what we're called to do. Mm-hmm. , if you're in ministry, um, we're supposed to be following and living as Jesus did. And what you never saw in the New Testament was Jesus just sit still somewhere and say, you know, everybody come to me. Mm-hmm. , I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna sit here , you know, in Jerusalem. I'm just gonna sit here and expect you to come to me. He traveled, he, he went around from town to town, place to place sharing and talking. And part of that was, you know, just getting around the people. Mm-hmm. , um, the people that, you know, he came to this place to die for was just to be amongst and, and interact with those people. Um, and that's part of our calling we're, we can't just sit in a church.

Kerry Ray (22:43):
You could have the greatest program in the world, but you sitting in a church and just expecting people to come to you is one arrogant too. Mm-hmm. , it's foolish. Three, it's ineffective. Um, it just doesn't, it's not the thing you can't, that's not who you're called to be. You're called to, to be out and about. And with people, people, these students are, you're calling, they're, they're coming to know Christ is your calling. And, and it can't be, I'm just sitting here and the kids that get here, that's great. The kids who don't hate it for them, um, that that's not okay. Yeah. So let's start there. Uh, number two, um, it, it matters to your community. Um, you hopefully want your church, your ministry, your student ministry. You want that to, to have such an impact on the lives of the people in your community, no matter their age, that if it disappeared, people would care. Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (23:40):
. Yeah.

Kerry Ray (23:41):
And to do that, you can't sit in your ivory tower literally and, and expect that to happen. You've got to go out and make some sort of impact, some sort of influence. Uh, and I think in the world we live in the, with the, um, deification, if you will, you know, all of the, you know, I am, you know, de deconstructing my, my religious experience. Um, people are weary. People are weary, people are leery I'll rhyme there. Uh, they're both, they are, they're, um, suspicious mm-hmm. of church. Like, what do you, you know, what do you want from me? Oh, you just want my money. Um, and we've got, if you're talking about students and general teenagers, uh, we've got, this is the first group generation that was raised by students who bowed out years ago. You know, statistically they're, they're called the nuns. N o n E S, not n u n S.

Kerry Ray (24:42):
But the parents are the people who were in student ministry, you know, maybe. And then they bowed out and their parents didn't, you know, didn't raise them in church. And so now they're having kids of their own. And, and so it's, it's blank slates. So you've got parents who don't know, who don't know church. You've got students who don't know church. Um, they're blank canvases. And so, uh, we are, should be out and about if nothing else trying to, trying to show and be the hands of Jesus Christ, the hands of beauty of Christ in these communities in which we are called the love administer to, um, digitally, um, I, I, let's be honest, we watched these last couple years with Covid shutting everything down. Mm-hmm. , we watched the churches who, and the student ministries who had embraced a, a different philosophy versus the come to me.

Kerry Ray (25:40):
Um, they transitioned better. I won't say, well, I will say they had, they made it through the Covid piece a little better mm-hmm. than the churches and the student ministries who lived in the come to us mentality. Um, but let's be honest, I think everybody struggled with it. Uh, because even young life, uh, who is excellent at contact work, I watched Young Life struggled to find themselves because they couldn't do that anymore. Yeah. They couldn't do the face to face interaction, and they had to try to do it in a digital format, and it didn't work as well. Sounds, um, it, it failed. Um, yeah. And it struggled. I mean, some of it, I mean, he, it kinda worked. Not really. I, I would say it failed. Um, even, you know, the big players in, in student industry, the people who were doing this, the guys out like, you know, um, fields and Josh, Doug Fields and Josh out in California went to a digital format.

Kerry Ray (26:38):
And I don't know, I, I haven't talked to these guys about it, so I'm gonna assume, but I, I would assume if you, you asked those guys, they would tell you that it was not what it was. Mm-hmm. , did they do the big digital thing? Well, sure they did. Yeah. But I don't, I don't think it was what it was before that. Yeah. I don't think they got the same interaction. It's a, it's a lot of work for a little payoff. Um, I know at the time of covid, I was in, uh, church in Cincinnati, Ohio, and our middle school ministry was tied to the weekends mm-hmm. , and it was kinda a show up to church, and you go to this thing, but our high school was built offsite. Um, and we had had multiple years where the students had built communities, it houses across the city, and those communities met offsite, and it was in that community that those students lived in with small group leaders that lived in that community that those students lived in.

Kerry Ray (27:33):
And those students were showing up and inviting people into this thing because it was their thing. Mm-hmm. , um, it was kind of their turf, but with our, uh, blanket over the top of it. Sure. It was, but it was still their thing. Um, and when Covid hit, I got to see firsthand middle school, they come to us, we shut that down for a little bit, then we tried to do it digitally. It just didn't fly. Um, it was a struggle to put, you know, 10 kids in the room, in, in a digital room, uh, high school. I don't think, if I looked at the numbers, and I tracked them every week, I think in total we lost two students. Wow. Two, why? And we actually picked up a few. Why? Because they had already built this community that was not attached to the come, come and see mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (28:31):
It was, it was a community. So when we took that community that already existed and just moved it to a digital format, they, they still do the same people. It was still, it was built on a different thing. Mm-hmm. , it was centered around community and not centered around come and see Yes. Or come and participate. Yeah. Um, so it, it, it, it mattered. It, it changed. And I, like I said, I watched, um, during those, during the covid years, got to see, you know, there were plenty of churches that that died. There were plenty of churches that are still, you know, where a year out now when this is being recorded. And they are still struggling with putting the pieces back together. I don't think, I don't think ministry, I don't think church will ever quite be the same. Um, post covid. Interesting. But, and I think youth ministry is harder, um, because I think students got realize they didn't have to be there.

Kerry Ray (29:25):
Mm-hmm. , uh, the church kids stopped going. The, the non-church kids never went. Uh, and we had a generation now that has been raised at least for a couple of years, you think of a sixth grader, they went through sixth, seventh, and part of grade without ever being in a so ninth grade in that time where it's already hard to be a part of a community because you drive for the first time, you've got some freedom in ninth and 10th grade. Yeah. Depending on your age and your state, uh, you start having freedom, you start working, um, you start doing other things. It's already hard in the, in the youth industry world. For those of you listening to this that are in, in ministry, you know, that time is already difficult anyway. But now you've got a group who went three years without engaging at all mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (30:08):
Uh, and then behind them is another group that went three years without engaging at all. And behind them is another group that, you know, hey, which is babies at the time. So it's going to be a difficult dig out. Um, and I think that that actually makes this contact work piece even more relevant. Mm-hmm. . Now to your question, if, can it be digital? I don't know. I, I have not seen that work super well. Um, now I will tell you this, we all know that, um, for a teenager, uh, when you, and I think of the friends we make, you know, they say, well, my friend, you know, you like, you think my friend that I play, you know, call on duty with, you know, that lives in California. You're like, you never, you, you live in Alabama, you don't know that kid , but you're like, no, I play with them every day.

Kerry Ray (31:00):
I, you know, I spend hours with them on a headset, you know, shooting people and, and you know, talking about stuff over the headset to them that is a real friend. Yeah. Um, that barrier has dropped mm-hmm. to us as adults. You know, I think, you know, for those of you that don't know, those of us, you know, over the age of, let's call it 27 ish, you know, we're digital. We're digital immigrants. Mm-hmm. , we're, we come with baggage of how technology works and how it should be used and utilized, and, uh, where our teenagers and below, or digital natives mm-hmm. , there's never been a time where they did not know technology. There's never been a time where social media was not interactive for them. Um, and so we as adults, as digital immigrants, let's use that instead of adults, us as digital immigrants, we look at, um, online friendships, online relationships, um, and go, that's weird.

Kerry Ray (32:03):
Um, that's not a thing. But to them as digital natives, that has always been the thing that has always been very real. Um, dating apps and, you know, swiping left and right. And I mean, that went from like a silly thing. Like, you know, this is those of us, again as digital immigrants, look at that and go, come on. Um, you know, you're just, you're just, you know, trying to find a hot dude or hot girl and hook up. But for them, they're like, no, I, I'm trying to find a relationship. I get to know people this way. Yeah. Um, it's, it's fascinating. Yeah. Um, so I think there is, there, there's gotta be a way for that to happen mm-hmm. , and we've gotta figure out this, and I'd go back to contact work. There's gotta be a way for contact work to happen in a digital context. But there is some, there is something to set for a loss of the, the face to face because the face to face is so significant.

Nick Clason (32:58):
Wow. Well, wasn't that awesome? I'm so excited for you to hear and learn from part two. Um, anything and everything that Kerry mentioned, uh, YM 360, my youth min, um, all those things. Um, and also Derry's episode. I'm gonna link all of those in the show notes, which you can grab a in your podcast catcher or be over at hybridministry.xyz. And I would really encourage you, because he said a lot of really good things. And if you're like me and you listen on 1.5 or two times speed, uh, you may have not caught it, or you're driving or you mowing the lawn or whatever you're doing, head to hybridministry.xyz and you can grab a full transcript of this episode so that you can have and use to utilize at your discretion. That's a thing that we do and produce for you, um, for a hundred percent free.

Nick Clason (33:49):
So we just wanna let you know that that is available there for you to check out at http://hybridministry.xyz If you found this helpful and I'm sure that you did, please give it a share. Send it to someone that you know, maybe in youth ministry, um, and leave us a rating or a review. That would be really, really helpful for us. We would love to, uh, hear that. So, um, we will chat with you guys next time. Excited to share with you part two of this episode. But until then, we'll talk again later by.

Follow us on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or online at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody. And welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast. On today's episode, I just wanted to have a quick conversation, a brain dump, if you will, about why we do what we do as Christians in church. And you know what I mean by that is there's a lot of moving parts in any organization if you're running a business or if you're an accountant or if you run a plumbing company or whatever, right? There's logistics, there's email, there's it, there's booking, there's scheduling, there's accounting, there's marketing, there's branding and color schemes and merchandising and content creation and social media. I mean, there's a million layers to everything, and the church is not exempt from that. And so what I wanna do, like I said, give just a quick little brain dump here. This is something that's been swirling around in my brain.

Nick Clason (01:09):
I am your host, Nick Clason. If you and I have not had a chance to meet, so excited that you're jumping on this, uh, podcast with me today. Um, I, we, we, we, uh, have this podcast, the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, because we are attempting to live life out in a hybrid sort of way. We don't live in a physical only world anymore, but we don't live in a digital only world either. How do we marry those two things together? And how do we create a hybrid sort of experience, uh, for the people that we're trying to reach? Because, you know, me, my story, like I'm a pastor, and so I've been called by God to reach people, make disciples, um, and share with them the mi, the mission, message, and hope found only in Jesus. And so how do we do that? And so for, you know, the majority of our lifetime, uh, we've done that through the local body, um, of the church.

Nick Clason (02:03):
And I believe that that's, that's a theological, um, understanding of what we have going on, right? Like the theological implications, Hebrew chapter 10, verse 24 and 25, Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Not giving up meeting together is somewhere in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another in all the more, as you see the day approaching, it's a biblical mandate for us to do life together. And by no means am I proposing that we don't do that. Um, so like I said, I'm a pastor, um, specifically I'm a youth pastor, uh, work in the Dallas, Texas area. And I just started a new job, started a new job, um, at, uh, going on two months now at this point. But the first month was, uh, remote and traveling back and forth between Dallas and Chicago, where I, I lived before.

Nick Clason (02:56):
And so, yeah, I really only feel like I've been here like 20 something days or whatever since, you know, since I was able to kind of get in here full time and get things going. So, you know, one of the, and, and listen, before I jump into this, this could feel like a slight or a, you know, a dig at the church I'm at, or the churches that I've been in in my lifetime. And the fact is I'm very thankful for every single opportunity that I've been given. Um, I see how every, uh, stop in my journey, in my career, uh, has led me to a very specific spot in my life and how God has orchestrated, um, and paved those ways. And so, you know, there's some, uh, there's some jobs that I've had, you know, that, that have some hurt. Um, and there's definitely like some moments in my life and in my ministry career that, um, I've, you know, I've struggled with or whatever.

Nick Clason (04:01):
Um, but I'm thankful for each and every stop along the way. I'm thankful for what I've learned at each and every stop along the way, um, and how the Lord has used that to grow me and give me just a, a perspective. And so I say all that to say what I'm about to say. Uh, like I said, may seem like I'm poking holes, like I'm digging, like I'm frustrated and I want as much as I can to preface that and say, I'm really, I'm not okay, especially if you're my boss or HR person and you're signing my paycheck, very appreciative for the job that you've given me. But what I've most recently, especially in this most recent onboarding, and so where I work now, I'm thrilled. I love my job. I love what I do. Um, I love, you know, they believe in me and they're giving me opportunities to go out and run and innovate and try some stuff.

Nick Clason (04:57):
And so for that, I'm incredibly thankful. Um, however, a lot of this stuff is popping up in my brain because of the fact that I'm starting somewhere new. And so, while I'm incredibly thankful what I'm about to say when I'm about to kind of like, um, I dunno, shine a light on, if you will, may seem like I'm aiming it at the church that I'm currently employed at. And by no means am I trying to, like I said, shine a light and be frustrated, whatever. So I think of caveat of that enough, it's been like two minutes of caveat, so you're probably ready to hear what I'm about to say. So in the whole onboarding process, um, actually, lemme see if I can pull it up. Um, in my email, when I first started, I got, um, information on how to set up, uh, my account for our church database, church management software.

Nick Clason (05:54):
Um, I also got information on all my benefits, which obviously I need that, and I'm grateful for, and I'm thankful for, right? Um, let's see, what else do I, I got, I got information on, uh, how to join, like the staff, um, info portal, like, um, it's called leader, Uh, you know, so it's like that plus like, uh, what's, you know, uh, development and stuff like that. Um, email, um, expenses, a couple of different portals for expenses. Um, and then our request, uh, system, which is like requests and calendars, maintenance things. Um, and I'm trying to think what else. Oh, there's, then there's task management software, um, that I had to learn. Then there's keys and there's fobs, uh, to get into doors. And then there's meetings with like department heads, you know, so like, um, how do we, in our, like I'm a youth pastor, so how do we, um, interact with the tech team?

Nick Clason (06:57):
How do we interact with the worship team? How do we interact with the creative team? How do we interact with the communications team and how do we interact with the facilities team? Um, a lot of the answers to that fall under the systems and like portals that I just listed out. Um, however, there's another like meeting to just sort of like a get to know people and then be like, um, kind of hash it out, chat it out, right? And so I, again, I say all that to say like, there's a lot of focus on those things. And as a pastor, um, Jesus committed all of his disciples, including pastors, to go make disciples, make more disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them, commanding them. Any promise that he'll be with us, promise us his presence. I'll be with you always to the very end of the age.

Nick Clason (07:53):
It's Matthew, uh, 28, 18 through 20. So I, I think, again, caveat, love, love my job. I think anyone that you're like questioning, like, why do we need this? Why do we, that this, the other thing, Well, those processes help make us more efficient so that we can, um, not waste time on details and tasks, and those things don't get dropped. And so then thus, therefore, we can be more effective and freed up to make disciples great. I mean, I agree with that. I agree with that on paper. Okay. And then, um, you know, you think about, think about like, what do we do as the church, right? So if I sit down, I'm like, Hey, I need to understand what my role as a youth pastor is in relation to worship, in relation to tech, in relation to facilities, right? Like, what does that, why, why is all that important?

Nick Clason (08:57):
Well, because I'm gonna be using the building. So we need the sound, the lights, the worship, the music, the facility to be ready, set up for a, you know, for what? For our event. Well, what's the purpose of our event? Well, that's to make disciples, right? It's really easy. And Ayanna, I can't remember who coined this term, you know, but I'm sure you've heard it before, right? There's, there's the tyranny of the urgent, right? There's always something more urgent, pressing. Like right now, I'm looking at my computer and I have one big red, uh, bubble on my email saying I have an unread email. And my human inclination, in fact, like computer companies, software companies, like they, they build it this way to give it like this, like, you know, urgency type of thing. So it's like, Oh, I gotta check that notification, right? That's, that's always the case.

Nick Clason (09:55):
We're always looking to figure out like, what is the most important thing? What do we need to handle most? And so in my church, we meet on Wednesday nights, we also meet on Sunday mornings. And so, and that's, I've had that rhythm before. Uh, but I, I'm most recently came from a church before this where we only had like one week worth of, uh, one thing per week of stu student ministry programming. So Wednesday and Sunday, like, that's, that's rapid to me. Like, it, it feels like much more, uh, much more frenetic of a pace. Frenetic is the wrong word, but like, the frequency is just doubled, right? It's from one time a week to not two times a week, Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. And those gaps are shorter. And so to get my things done in between those two are quicker. And so, like I said, I'm always turning around and finding myself like, Oh, you know, I'm recording this on a Tuesday night, tomorrow morning, uh, is Wednesday, I'll be at church all day long.

Nick Clason (10:51):
And then, because I'm at church all day long on Wednesday, um, I will work most of my day on Thursday and be off on Friday. I gotta get everything between, you know, tomorrow and Thursday ready and locked and loaded for Sunday. And I may in fact get some stuff ready and locked and loaded for Sunday, tomorrow, on Wednesday before I ever even, uh, you know, host the next event. I'm two events ahead, right? And that's, if I'm really, you know, most people say, Oh, it's if you're really well planned and that's, you're really on top of things. And, and I like to think I am. However, that there, you know, there's always, like, you always work best under pressure. Um, there's actually like a psychological term of that called like forced focus. And so if you're forced to focus, like as you're zeroing in on an event, no matter how good, and well you are planned out, like, you'll come up with something, you're like, Shoot, it was a good idea.

Nick Clason (11:47):
I should have done that. You know, So anyway, all that right? Aha. That to be said, What, why are we doing church? Like, we're not in the event business, but we are a little bit, right? And here's why. This is a hybrid conversation because, uh, 10, even 10 years ago, maybe like 20 at the most, right? The way to gather together in the way to disseminate, uh, information, theological information, with the exception of the Bible in like print pieces, using printing press, books, magazines, whatever, newspaper articles, like the only way to distribute that information was through the local church. And so thus, the regular gathering was really important because you'd come together and maybe the church would have access to these print pieces of these magazines. They'd get 'em in bulk or whatever, and they'd provide them for their parishioners, their congregation members. But now, since the advent of the internet, all that stuff is available to people.

Nick Clason (12:51):
And so the novelty of church or the uniqueness that it brought, it, it almost feels like it's not there as much. And then again, what are we doing? Like, we're making disciples through the context of hosting events. And I, I, I, I think events matter, and I think they're important. Um, you know, but like, like I, I told you a couple episodes ago, go back and listen to it where I said, Hey, here's what we're, you know, trying to do on social media or whatever, Um, trying to launch some stuff. I just pulled TikTok open on my account, and that's why you heard some background noise on that. Um, and I'm gonna do it again right here, but, um, listen, like I, we posted a like sermon, uh, recap deal, um, couple weeks ago, and I had a 437 views on, on one of those, right?

Nick Clason (13:49):
That's one of my higher ones. That's, that's, you know, better than most. But here's the thing that's kind of crazy. Think about like, when I gather all my students together, um, I have like a hundred, a hundred students, and that's, that's good, right? That's, that's pretty big. Um, some, you know, somewhere between 102 hundred students all together, if everyone showed up, you, if you're a youth pastor, you know how this goes, right? And so, uh, what's more advantageous? Well, I know, I know the students in my room, so I have a captive audience. I'm able to disciple them a little bit better. I'm able to craft the message, um, so that they hear what, you know, maybe they need to hear whatever they're like struggling with or through. However, like the reach on TikTok is like five times that with that one video. You know, some videos are smaller, like, you know, the most recent one I think had like 19.

Nick Clason (14:44):
So it's, it's obviously a lot, a lot smaller. And, uh, TikTok is less about who you follow and more about being, being discovered. And so, um, what is the next step for those audience members and all that stuff. All all that being said, like I know I find myself being challenged to be a disciple maker, be a dis be a disciple myself, of Jesus, and out of the overflow of that, make more and better disciples of him. And the, the context or the fabric, which with which at least the majority of the time of my job is soaked into, is through executing and, um, planning events, maintaining a physical facility, and, you know, worrying about branding, messaging, signage, like all those ancillary pieces. And you know, when it's all said and done, like officially on my, like, I don't, I don't have a time sheet, I'm salaried, right?

Nick Clason (15:53):
But if I did like on my time sheet, like Sunday mornings with students is probably like two hours. And then Wednesday nights with students is another like two hours. And if I'm like a really good youth pastor and I'm like getting coffee or going to football games, let's say that's another like two to four hours. Like in my 40 hour week, I spend eight, eight hours a great week, maybe 10 hours if I'm like super over the top, like really on it with actual teenagers. And like, I get it, right? Like in Ephesians, Paul said, Equipped the saints for works and acts of service. And like you heard, to have a hundred, a hundred plus kids, like, and we have small group leaders that, you know, it's, it's technically their job on our, in our pipeline to like, make that happen. But like, call to make disciples.

Nick Clason (16:45):
And so again, I say all this to say like, I'm not disgruntled, not angry. I love my church. And quite frankly, like I'm here because I'm so passionate about this hybrid stuff and in marrying like the digital with the physical, not because I love digital so much, cuz I really don't, but because I think that, well, I know that there's 167 other hours a week that the one hour a week that kids are sitting in our service, in my church I have too. So 166 hours in addition in a student's life, what am I doing then? How am I reaching a student where they are? How are they learning, growing, developing deeper into the core characters of Christ and doing the things that he challenged them to do? How else are they coming across those things? If it's not just a wins in night when they're in the building with me, or on a Sunday morning when they're in the building with me. Like when else are they being challenged by their youth pastor, by their church to live out their faith, to live out their faith, to learn the knowledge, to understand the things and tenants of the Bible, but

Nick Clason (17:48):
Also then to carry out that message to their friends, to reach their friends who are far from Jesus, to, to share the message of hope, the gospel with their friends who don't know him, to grow deeper in their relationship, to hone their skills, their character, so that it mirrors more closely like Christ to, to follow what, what his mission was that he laid out. I mean, this is so much more than how do I return in my receipts and how do I learn the softwares in the systems? Like I get it, right? Like at church is an organization. And without those things, you know, it would probably be far less effective. I get it. And you know, it's, it, it, maybe it's just a necessary evil, I don't know. Um, but it's just, it's something that got me thinking, like, you know, sit in a staff meeting today and we're just going over tons and tons of logistics and you know, like I said, I love my job.

Nick Clason (18:45):
I have a really great job, and they're, they're allowing us to think outside the box and allowing us to break the mold a little bit. And so I'm, I'm really grateful for that. Um, but I just wonder if sometimes church, not just my church, all churches get a sucked into the tyranny of the urgent and b, turn into event makers as opposed to makers of disciples, builders of disciples, crafting, honing the next generation to look and act more like the person of Jesus. Like that's, that was his commission. So if we start with that, if we, if we start with the why, like why do we do this? And is an event the most effective way to do it? Probably, Or at least, at least if it's not, it's, it's a part of a hybrid solution to what the future looks like. And I don't have all the answers.

Nick Clason (19:38):
And that's you. That's, I think that's why I'm coming across passionate and potentially angry. I'm not angry. I'm really not. I'm just, I, I'm really, I'm right now I'm gonna study provided through my church about 50 days through the life of Christ. It's an amazing study. I've done it before. I'm doing it again, just being reminded about how intentional Jesus was about investing in people living life with his disciples and modeling for them what his ministry model was. And, and then I turn around and I'm, you know, I'm having to like, figure out how to like submit her a seat cuz I've never done it before. Cuz you know, I always had my admin do it. And, uh, she, she recently left and started a new job somewhere else. And so we're looking for one. And you know, I'm like slugging through that a little bit and I'm like, man, I get it.

Nick Clason (20:28):
Like right. It's necessary. And if anyone, if anyone from where I work hears this, they're gonna like, think I'm just this ungrateful, you know, complaining guy. Like I'm not, I'm really not. I'm just, I'm wrestling with like, what's the most important and how do we, how do we create something to respond to the tyranny of the urgent while not losing ourselves in the making of disciples. And I think that that's, I think every youth pastor, I think every pastor, every person in vocational ministry feels that tension at some point. So if you're in vocational ministry, let me hear it from you. Um, we're in this together and like I said, I love where I work. I don't have all the answers, um, but it's just something that got me thinking today. So I don't know. Listen bro, this is like a stream of consciousness. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna have chapter markers for this at the end of the day. Like this is just me rambling talking for 20 minutes. So if you found a helpful, let me know. Reach out on Twitter at hybrid ministry or, uh, swing by the website, hybridministry.xyz. Uh, and until next time, we'll talk to you later. Peace out my friends.