🎧 Ronald's Podcast
https://podcast.downloadyouthministry.com/category/middle-school-ministry/

DESCRIPTION
In this conversation, Nick Clason and Ronald Long discuss the challenges and opportunities of youth ministry in the digital age, particularly focusing on the role of technology and cell phones among middle schoolers. They explore the importance of engagement in content creation, the necessity of guidelines for responsible phone use, and the balance between digital and in-person ministry. The discussion emphasizes the need for open conversations between parents and children regarding technology, as well as collaborative resources for youth pastors to navigate these challenges effectively.

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⌚TIMECODES
00:00 The Role of Technology in Middle School Ministry
04:50 Guidelines for Responsible Cell Phone Use
09:50 Balancing Digital and In-Person Youth Ministry
14:53 Encouraging Healthy Conversations About Technology
20:01 Collaborative Resources for Youth Pastors

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00)
What's up everybody? I'm Nick and this is.

Ronald (00:04)
Hey guys, I'm Ronald Long. How you doing?

Nick Clason (00:06)
We're excited to be here, Ronald. This is a weird thing. This is your show, this is my show, this is our show.

Ronald (00:08)
we are excited to be here.

Whose show is it really? That's a question.

Nick Clason (00:15)
That is the question that people want to know the answer to.

Ronald (00:19)
Did I just take over hybrid youth ministry? I think I did. I did. great. This is mine now. And yours? You get middle school ministry. Yeah, this is it. Tell Andrea. no.

Nick Clason (00:23)
You did, you did. Yeah. Welcome. Well, actually, yeah, and I'm taking over middle school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you have exactly. Bye, Andrea. Bye. Anyway, you know, Ronald, it's interesting and I'm excited to have this conversation because probably the biggest, one of the biggest pushbacks I get when I'm pushing stuff like in my hybrid ministry, just idea and whatnot is what about middle schoolers?

especially like in our context, we don't get middle schoolers until like, or we get them at sixth grade, which there's an inflection point. And depending on the conservative nature of your church, there could be a lot of those students that have cell phones. And then a lot of students that don't, you know? And so like my main thing with hybrid ministry is trying to intersect people where they are. And I think the cell phone is just a great spot to try and aim for. Right. But what about those middle schoolers that are young and like don't have cell phones? And so.

Ronald (00:57)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Nick Clason (01:21)
I'm excited to have this conversation with you because you as a lifelong middle school youth pastor and host of podcasts, like you and a dad of daughters in that age age range, right? Like I want to hear your perspective because I'm it feels to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like middle schoolers kind of run the gamut. Some that don't even have access to any technology and then some that are just all in way too much. You're a little scared for their well-being, you know.

Ronald (01:29)
EW.

Yeah.

Absolutely, and you're right because their parents also run the gambit too. So for people listening who don't know, I have in my house four teenage daughters. I have 18 year old senior graduating this year, then I have a freshman, a seventh grader, and a fifth grader. So I've got everybody.

Nick Clason (01:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you're right there.

Ronald (02:15)
And my elementary school kid who's in fifth grade, Ruth is telling me about like her friends who have cell phones and have had cell phones since like third and fourth grade. Like that's just been their reality. They have always had a phone. Think of the iPad kid who just like parents are like, yeah, whatever here, right? Here's just the next step up. Go ahead and have a phone. Don't care. Put whatever on it. And then like,

Nick Clason (02:42)
So

Ronald (02:45)
me and my family, this has become our rule, it was our rule with our first, you get your cell phone at the end of fifth grade. And so, and we'll talk a little bit more about this too because I have really appreciated what other parents like told me and helped me figure out. That cell phone only can do a couple things, right? And we stair-step eventually through it.

Nick Clason (02:54)
Okay.

Hmm. So as we like lean into this, first of all, everyone should know, no matter where you're listening, hit the link down below, because Ronald and I put together kind of like a collaborative hybrid ministry for middle schoolers kind of resource. So take it, download it, use it, share it with your parents, whatever you want to do. But especially like here we are post-Christmas, and isn't it so true that most middle schoolers

Ronald (03:30)
Use it.

Nick Clason (03:41)
there's a lot of technology that's given under the tree. And so this is just a very timely conversation, right? Like let's talk about technology use and middle schoolers. give us, like, why you start there where you did a little bit, like dive a little deeper into that. Fifth grader, that's your rule. Is that your recommendation? Do you take it, would you recommend parents take that on more of a case by case type basis? What's the wisdom principle in that, or is it?

Ronald (03:44)
100%.

yeah.

Nick Clason (04:08)
you know, hard and fast, like, yeah, as soon as they're done with fifth grade, they're mature enough to have a cell phone or like, what's your, how do you make that decision? I guess, or how would you coach parents to make that decision?

Ronald (04:17)
So what we went through and what was kind of like the deciding factor for us is, I live in San Antonio and so we have, once my kid was finished with elementary school, our oldest, she had friends who were splitting up into like the four winds, right? And we wanted to give her a way to stay connected to them and so we were like, okay, we're going to give you a phone, but.

Nick Clason (04:36)
Mm.

Yeah.

Ronald (04:46)
Big stipulations. We had it, it's an iPhone, so we locked it down pretty tight to where she couldn't download any apps without requesting permission, so that's a big deal. There's no browser on it. So in fact, my high schooler just got a browser this year for ninth grade. to put that in, yeah, no browser.

Nick Clason (04:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Okay, so that's like all of middle school. Yeah.

Ronald (05:16)
Specifically also, no social media. She actually also just got her first social media, which was Pinterest. you, stair steppin' man. That's a stair step. But that, okay, here's what I tell parents, and here's what I have told parents and what I am taking through. Imagine a cell phone like a car, right? You are, even for the visual.

Nick Clason (05:25)
Okay. Which, does that even count? know, like that's one of those fringe ones.

For sure.

Mm-hmm.

Ronald (05:46)
You're giving keys away to your kid. for the audio too. on. There we go. Little foley. Little foley for our audio listeners. You don't just give the Ferrari away to a 16 year old or a 15 year old and say, right, go figure that out. guess you know more about this than I do. Like, no, no.

Nick Clason (05:46)
There you go.

Those are car keys, people. Ronald's jingling them. We'll narrate this.

Yeah.

Ronald (06:15)
you start that kid backing in and out of your driveway in the beater, right? And so we took that principle and applied it to our kids having cell phones. So like, okay, you're going to get like a not great iPhones, not the brand new one. It's going to be like, the one with the one camera. Yeah. The one camera type deal. And we're going to stair step you through this. Well, that's just an Android, Nick. That's what you.

Nick Clason (06:30)
Mm-hmm. me down. Yeah.

Maybe some crack screens like my Android here.

The glass is apparently weaker.

Ronald (06:45)
That's fine. No, and so we've stair-stepped. so my seventh grader who has a phone, also has a phone in middle school, has a phone but doesn't have, again, social media doesn't have a browser. And we also put like a stipulation on where the phone can go. My girls, I live in a two-story house. All the bedrooms are upstairs. No phones upstairs. Like that's a rule for us. And so when ...

Nick Clason (07:11)
Great rule, by the way. I approve. Yeah.

Ronald (07:14)
When it's time to go to bed, the charger's downstairs and they have to charge their phone downstairs. No phones at the dinner table. In fact, even it's no phones after dinner. So we say, hey, get it done after dinner, no phones. Those are just like things that we have done as a family to be like, hey, here's the deal. We are going to give you permission that expands with responsibility. And then also cool thing as a parent, my kids don't have a cell phone after supper.

Nick Clason (07:18)
Yeah, good.

Mmm. It's good. It's good.

Mm-hmm.

Ronald (07:44)
So if I'm just scrolling on my cell phone after supper, they're like, hey dad, what are you doing? I'm like, yeah, you're right. I need to be off my phone. I need to pay attention to you.

Nick Clason (07:46)
They're calling you out.

That's so smart. That's just like built in accountability right there, for sure. Yeah. And you know, the thing that I, I try and tell parents as well in our context and other youth ministry avenues and whatever, honestly, just like a lot of times the question is what product or what resource do you use to like monitor like your kids screen usage and all those types of things. And rest assured, there are a million different like resources and things out there that you can use and you can lean into.

Ronald (07:57)
It's huge.

Absolutely.

Nick Clason (08:22)
But at the end of the day, the goal is for that thing not to become your kid's parent. The goal is for you to be the parent of it. Right. And so I love your rules because those guidelines are things that you've put in place. Like you can lock down an iPhone all you want, but you can still abuse it if it's in the room and they're on it until way after bedtime or you know, the no, no phones after dinner thing. Like there can be indiscriminate use or just like mindless use of it. And so.

Ronald (08:50)
Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (08:51)
You're being proactive and in on top of it, you know, and that's, that's what I really like and appreciate because that's the tech. There's always a workaround in the technology. That's what I've found. Like there's no foolproof piece of technology. It's always a work.

Ronald (09:02)
Heck yeah.

No, I figured it out when I was dealing dial-up modem internet and my parents had the protective things when I was in high school. like, I can figure this out, you know? So no amount of blocking software or things like that will get around actual discipleship of your kids. Because you are a person who is imperfect, just like your kids. They're gonna make mistakes. So what do do?

Nick Clason (09:10)
Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

That's it. That's it. That's good. That's good. Let's shift gears a little bit then. Let's talk about your, how you've noticed technology, cell phones, whatever, within actual confines of youth ministry. Not just, you you parenting your kids with it, but like, what's it like navigating? Cause in a lot of cases, like we said, you got kids that don't even have it at all versus kids who are like using and fully on like all the social apps. So.

Ronald (09:36)
Like, how do you figure that out? Big deal.

Yeah.

Nick Clason (10:03)
What was your typical practice as a middle school pastor with technology?

Ronald (10:10)
Yeah, of it was just being open about that being a potential barrier between you and other people. And the other thing was not, because I was in a real conservative context, there was almost like some judgment to kids who did have a phone, which was really funny. And so I had to like stamp, yeah, I'm glad you get it. So.

Nick Clason (10:28)
Mm

Yeah, same here by the way, so I can relate to that.

Ronald (10:39)
On the one hand, whenever I had a parent being like, you know what, my kid just say that they don't connect very, they don't have any friends in youth ministry. And I'm looking at their kid, I so remember this one specific instance of girl, phone here, face down, and even her hair like covered the side of her face to where all it was, and she was in a corner on her phone looking down at it and not engaging with the room.

Nick Clason (10:59)
Yeah.

Ronald (11:07)
And then like I got a email three weeks later being like, my daughter is just not making any friends. I'm like, yeah, no joke. I've tried. And so trying to have a conversation with students where it's both not being judgmental, but also making sure they're aware of like, hey guys, if you feel lonely, one of the reasons in a list might be you're on your phone too much and you're missing what's going on right in front of you.

Nick Clason (11:13)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ronald (11:36)
you care more about your online persona or the next funny video than you do your friend who's literally sitting three feet away from you. so trying to navigate that well was always the thing. And so that would just be like application. But on the other hand, you can do that in really great ways to be like, Hey guys, if you've got a phone, text a friend verse right now, someone who's not in this room, text an encouraging verse.

Nick Clason (11:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ronald (12:03)
so that you can be a light in their life, right? It's both and, right? So I don't like telling a kid, hey, cell phones are the devil, you should never have one. And I don't like telling parents, just give your kid a phone and don't worry about it, because it's absolutely both and.

Nick Clason (12:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's honestly, that's exactly like what I feel like my entire podcast is predicated on. what this started out of, I don't know, I guess like a moment of frustration and a little bit of like an inflection point. like we'd gone pretty hard in on like digital ministry during COVID. I was working in Chicago and so it was necessitated, like it had to happen.

But then we found some really fun and cool wins out of doing ministry in a digital sort of context and some opportunities that actually opened up for us that weren't available to us doing ministry pre-COVID. And so as we were all sort of coming back from, you know, restrictions and lockdown and all those types of things, we were then trying to navigate this like tension between like how much should we swing the pendulum, right? And so my whole, like my whole thing, like the whole name of this like hybrid ministry is like,

Ronald (13:08)
Yeah.

Nick Clason (13:13)
It's not just your digital, but it's not just your in-person. It's kind of that both and, and I think in all of life, it's easier for us. We like to draw hard and hard and fast lines and be like, cell phones are bad. So you should not, but I like your, you know, your Ferrari example because you have to work, you have to work up to it. You don't just earn it immediately. And so like my contention is as much as we, especially older generations want to lament cell phones and how difficult they are for

ministry and connection and they are like in some cases they definitely are, but like there's also a lot of good, you know, that comes out of them. your friend a verse or group chats. Like group chats are such a simple thing that didn't exist. Was it 10 years ago? 15 years ago? Like even if you have people with Android, like group chats are still a way to stay connected, you know, to one another. but you know, so like that's, that's kind of like my contention is like

Ronald (13:54)
Mm-hmm.

No, you can't connect with people with Androids over group chat. It doesn't happen.

Nick Clason (14:11)
we have to help students navigate this well and not just settle for the easy answer of just throw your cell phone in a river. It's terrible and it's the enemy. And if we think that, then why are we getting our kids these things for Christmas? It's like, I just need to call them at practice. Okay, but now you've opened Pandora's box and that's not necessarily a bad thing, not condemning any parent for doing that. I'm just saying now we have to help them navigate that well, both at the parent level and also while we're like...

Ronald (14:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Nick Clason (14:40)
navigating and managing that within like our student ministries.

Ronald (14:44)
Sure, and it's just as important as showing your kid what you version can do and be like, hey, you know what's really cool about you version? It's a Bible reading plan. Let's you and me do it together, parent and kid. Or, hey, as a ministry, we're gonna do this month long Bible reading plan. That's on your phone. Yeah, it's absolutely being able to use the tools that are available to us, because we could have said the same thing about lamenting the invention of the car, taking away our, aw man, we're not as

Nick Clason (14:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Course privileges.

Ronald (15:14)
connected. So yeah, and since this is the middle school ministry podcast too, it matters to a middle school student what you model to them. Because they take that to heart. so my whole thing was not trying to judge those who had a cell phone. But yeah, absolutely. If they're going to be on YouTube,

Nick Clason (15:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Ronald (15:44)
watching you know Mr. Beast do whatever Mr. Beast does then I kind of also want them to hear from their youth pastor every now and then and so that's an easy thing to do like you pastor to take your phone spend five minutes making five reels and then or five shorts for YouTube and be like hey look my kids are gonna get some encouragement for me this week that's it's out there

Nick Clason (15:51)
Why not? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely. And one thing I've noticed and I've seen in like studies and stuff here recently is like, you know, Gen X boomers even have all sort of like settled in on Facebook millennials. Are you millennial, Ronald? Yeah. All right. Me too. Me too. Instagram, right? It's kind of like millennials favorite platform. Gen Z sort of like made tick tock its thing. We're noticing

Ronald (16:22)
yes, and how dare you.

Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (16:34)
Jen Alpha's making YouTube kind of their spot. And I, yeah. And I even read that it, for Jen Alpha, it's taking the place of Google as its preferred search engine. And so what an opportunity for us like to be on there, you know, and for middle school kids to see us, to see their youth pastor, to maybe even see themselves or their friends from youth group. You know, if you post shorts, reels, all that type of stuff on there, like

Ronald (16:36)
Yeah, it is YouTube.

Absolutely.

Nick Clason (17:01)
You're so right. Like it's such a fantastic opportunity. it really, just exactly what my whole goal with hybrid is like showing up where they are. Like if they're on YouTube, how cool is it? Like they can get on there and they can watch MrBeast who's all across the country and also their church.

Ronald (17:17)
Well, and to even use the platform like it's currently being used then, how cool would it be if your kid typed in how to study the Bible and they got an answer from their youth pastor immediately? Like you already had a five minute video on how to study the Bible that you had prepared for your kids and it was there, right? Because that's how they're using the platform.

Nick Clason (17:30)
Right? Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah, it's not just like, it's not just there for you as a youth pastor to have another channel for announcements, though you can be, but I would, what I encourage people to do is use the platforms for their intended uses. And so if you're going to use it for a thing that you think is what your ministry needs, but it's not in alignment with the intended use of the platform, you're not going to see the same types of results than if you actually use it for what it's being used for, which is answering specific questions.

Ronald (17:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Nick Clason (18:09)
And frankly, entertainment, right? And maybe like a little bit of inspiration too. So that's good. So what would you say to a middle school youth pastor or any youth pastor out there, like who's got people in their church like you and like me who are a little leery about cell phone, cell phone usage, middle school. Like what's the, how would you coach them, you know, to either lean in and have that conversation or.

Ronald (18:26)
Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (18:38)
with parents or how to like manage maybe some of that potential like turbulent waters of, you know, angry parents who think cell phones are evil and of the devil.

Ronald (18:48)
You know what's funny is when I first started in ministry, there was a big deal where we said, don't bring any cell phones to camp. And then there was a really turbulent season in between when we arrived to my kid as a parent saying, my kid will bring their phone to camp or they're not going.

Nick Clason (18:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Ronald (19:18)
And so navigating that in between, I think there are far fewer parents who are going to say that a cell phone is evil. They might be saying, my kid has to have one because I need to be connected and know what's up with my kid at all times.

Nick Clason (19:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ronald (19:35)
which is a different type of unhealth, that's fine. We can go from there. To help a youth pastor navigate the cell phones. Cell phones are bad, right? A cell phone is the same, to use the car analogy. It's a tool. can take you someplace great. It can take you someplace awful. And if you want to be the youth pastor who's like, no cell phones in the youth room. They go in this box over here and we use paper Bible still. Like that's fine.

Nick Clason (19:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, yeah.

Ronald (20:04)
if you explain that, right? As long as you're saying, why we do this as a ministry, this is the vision, this is what we're trying to accomplish. Do that, but you're going to have parents who, when you go to camp, when you go to retreat, they're gonna push back on you and be like, hey, my kid is going to take their cell phone. I don't care what their rules are.

Nick Clason (20:28)
Yeah. Well, like when did you get a cell phone? Like how old were you when you got a cell phone? Yeah.

Ronald (20:31)
I was 16 and I got a cell phone because my parents were afraid that I was going to get lost when I started driving by myself. So I got my dad's secretary's old Nokia phone.

Nick Clason (20:45)
But so you're 16, right? And now you're the type of parent in that particular age bracket and demographic, you're sending your daughter's kids to camp. like that's all, know, cell phones from the age of 16 for you and on up. Like I was about the same, you know, so here in a couple of years when my kids are old enough to go to camp, I only, that's my like comfort zone, you know? And so like I get their scary stuff on it, but

Ronald (20:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Clason (21:14)
It's also gonna, it's not, you're not never gonna give your kid a cell phone. So how do we, and that's my thing, how do we help lean in and teach them the good things of it? Put good, good rules and guidelines and guardrails all around it so that you're hopefully protecting your kids and having conversations, you know, with it.

Ronald (21:25)
Yeah.

It's exactly that. It's continued conversations with kids. And even as a parent being okay to say, these are our non-cell phone times to where we're going to talk. I know parents who like to say no phones in the car because that 15 minute, 20 minute drive can be like, hey, we can actually have a conversation as we drive around. But just having conversations about your phone usage. Hey, who are you following? Hey.

Nick Clason (21:35)
That's it, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, so true.

Mm-hmm.

Ronald (22:00)
I or even telling like I will do this with my girls. I'll send them goofy videos and goofy memes Not because I think they're the funniest thing in the world But I'm trying to connect with them on their level like to my own kids and so like It's funny because they don't have social media what I'm doing is screen recording a funny reel I saw and then sending that to them as a message

Nick Clason (22:09)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah dude. Yeah, for sure.

Bro, that's so committed, but I love it. Like that's, you you're like, we're not doing the social media thing, but I still want you to see this thing that I saw on social media and it's funny. So you'll like it. It's great.

Ronald (22:34)
Yeah, and I want you to know that I'm thinking of you throughout the day. I want you to laugh. This is a funny thing. And yeah, phones aren't the devil. Yeah, so it's trying to continually have a conversation with your kid. And even where you're saying, hopefully they're coming to you and being like, my friend is being dumb in the group chat. They go, okay, what did they say? Talking through what's good to text, what's not good to text, how...

Nick Clason (22:43)
That's great,

Ronald (23:02)
inflection matters and be like, Hey, I know you hate it, but this might be a FaceTime moment because it sounds like you guys are not seeing each other texting back and forth. Maybe you need to like actually talk.

Nick Clason (23:12)
Yeah. Yeah, man, that's so good. Well, anything else, Ronald, before we hang this sucker up?

Ronald (23:19)
I think the most important thing a parent can do with their kid and having a phone is have some guidelines and have lots of conversations. I think if you stick into those two places, like you're gonna be in a spot where maybe sometimes it's uncomfortable, maybe it's sometimes you're giving a little bit more, you're giving more unearned responsibility away than you're ready for, but like that's parenting as a whole. You don't want your 18 year old kid.

to get a cell phone and all social media all at once and be like, well, now I'm gonna learn everything. It's much, I think it's a much better experience for you and the kid if you walk them through the process together with you in the driver's seat sometimes and them in the driver's seat sometimes.

Nick Clason (24:04)
That's good. Yeah, actually, if anyone's listening to this, watching this like here live, like in the next several weeks, like that's what I'm doing on my podcast is I'm doing like some parent and kid kind of like tech talks. And so they're like aimed for youth pastors to like curate or have that conversation with like some downloadable worksheets and stuff like that that they can share. because I think that's, that's the key in all of this. Like it's, it's easier to draw a line in the sand and be like, no, this, like this is it. We're not doing that, but like we,

Ronald (24:16)
Mmm, yeah.

Nick Clason (24:34)
That's the phone has not allowed us to do that. It's not going away. So instead we got to figure out how do we lean into it into what's uncomfortable and maybe like uncertain waters, like lean into it to just open up that continued kind of conversation thing. So I think that's, that's so good. So, yo, if you're listening here for me on my channel, go follow everything Ronald's doing, middle school ministry podcast. It's dope. It's all about middle schoolers and he's got dope co-hosts.

Ronald (24:48)
Absolutely.

Yeah. I just want to thank everybody for listening to my podcast, the hybrid ministry podcast. Thank you so much. That's really great. No, and if you're, if you're listening to this from middle school ministry podcast, you should definitely go check out what Nick Clayson is doing over in hybrid ministry. Some really good stuff, some really helpful things to carry the conversation forward when it comes to the digital world and youth ministry.

Nick Clason (25:05)
that you've taken over.

Yeah, no, I love it. So good. And like I said, we both collabed on a little resource. It's free in both of our show notes, so go grab that. that's it, man. We'll talk to guys next time.

Ronald (25:34)
See you around.

Follow us on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Find all the resources you need from the podcast http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Follow Derry online:
-TWITTER: https://twitter.com/derryprenkert
-INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/derryprenkert/
-PODCAST: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/my-third-decade-in-youth-ministry/id1338273697

SHOWNOTES
Steve Job's introduction of the iPhone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7qPAY9JqE4
Derry's Parenting Resource: https://www.downloadyouthministry.com/p/adolescence%2C-technology-and-parenting/training-3996.html
Johnny Mac's Stuff: https://yourhouseblend.com/jonnysblend

TIMECODES
00:00-03:30 Intro
03:30-10:53 The impact of the invention of the iPhone
10:53-14:30 What happened in ministry after the invention of the iPhone
14:30-23:20 How have you responded since then?
23:20-32:44 When do you ask phones to be put away?
32:44-41:23 How can we utilize technology now to further and advance God's mission?
41:23-43:38 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Excited to be with you today. Uh, today we have our very first, uh, guest interview, uh, friend of mine Derry Pinker. He's located in, um, Amish town, Nape Indiana. Um, right now, uh, he worked at that church for over 20 years, and then he was at another church for just a couple years, super large church in, uh, Kentucky. So, um, excited to bring you Derry's conversation. Uh, he mentions a couple of different links. He talks about Steve Jobs' keynote, a resource that he has on download youth ministry and echo ministry. I'm gonna include all of those in the show notes, but without any further ado, let's just hop in so you can get to know Derry.

Nick Clason (00:51):
All right, well, what's up Derry? Good to have you on the podcast. Welcome, man.

Derry Prenkert (00:56):
Yeah, it's so good to be with you, Nick. Thanks for having me on.

Nick Clason (00:58):
Yeah. So as we were talking a little bit before I hit record here, you have a podcast or did, or what would you define the, the existence of your podcast? Right Now?

Derry Prenkert (01:11):
The status of my third decade. It is, it has been on the longest hiatus ever. Um, yeah. And it is coming back. Um, it's tied to this whole world of the shift that I've, I've made from being in a local church to now serving pastors in the local church. Yeah. And I'm in a season of getting all the groundwork laid for that. I, uh, have every intention, every intention by, uh, early 2023 that it's gonna launch back out. And there are some, there are actually some things already recorded for it, so, so it hasn't completely gone away. There, there is, there is a future to it.

Nick Clason (01:46):
That's good. Cuz it's still in my podcast catcher, so I'm not unsubscribing from, I just wanna let you know that it's still there. So, um, but back when I mowed the lawn when I worked two churches ago, I think I heard you, um, talk about like, uh, this really big shift in culture and you noticed that it was, uh, have to do with when the iPhone came into existence. Mm-hmm. , just give us a little bit, like give us your story, how long you've been, you know, doing youth ministry, um, and how you have a beneficial perspective of before technology and phones are a part of what we have to navigate and deal with. And then post, and then maybe we can just kind of chat about how we navigate that as, you know, people who are, uh, ministering to people, students, um, who are very much entrenched in this technology, like Lane and world.

Derry Prenkert (02:42):
Yeah, absolutely. So, um, my story is somebody that started in youth ministry at 19 years old. I was just about to turn 20 and I started an internship and that was back in 1996. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I'm old. Um, and so graduated from high school in 95, start in, in ministry in 96. And so I get 11 years of ministry. Um, and in those 11 years, uh, you know, cell phones, car phones were around when I started . Yeah. And cell phones were around when I finished college in 1999. But they were, they roamed the minute you got outside of about 10 miles from your house and you only use them in emergencies. And then, and then it moved into, you know, 2004, 2005, the razor flip. Flum was the coolest thing in the world is texting, kind of entered the picture mm-hmm. . Um, and then, you know, so I, but, but really it was 2007 when Steve Jobs holds up this, this phone.

Derry Prenkert (03:36):
And it's actually interesting to go back and watch, I don't know if you've ever watched that keynote when he does it. No, I should, but, but he, he, he introduces it and is pretty prophetic, like the level of what he's talking about where technology is heading. Cause he said this is gonna revolutionize and change. And he says, he says, What would happen if we were to introduce a computer operating system, a phone and a iPod all in one thing. Yeah. And that's, that's the heartbeat of what they did. Um, and actually I, I do a technology thing with parents, uh, adolescents, technology and parenting. Mm-hmm. , uh, what I do is, I'll actually, it's, it's a fun little exercise cuz if you think about, you got, most parents of teenagers right now are, are there children of the eighties if they're really, if they've got younger, like their youngest kids are teenagers now, nineties or maybe early two thousands mm-hmm. . And so what I do is I'll put up on the screen different, like, what was the technology of our time. And so like, you know, in the eighties you got like VCRs and corded phones and, and a Walkman or a giant computer that has a green screen maybe.

Nick Clason (04:41):
Yeah. I found the VCR yesterday in our building, so that was cool,

Derry Prenkert (04:46):
Dude. And, and did you try playing anything? Cause it probably just ate the tape, right?

Nick Clason (04:49):
Yeah, no, I was like, I don't, I don't even know if we would ever need this, but, Right. Yeah. Here it

Derry Prenkert (04:53):
Is. Yeah. Yeah. It's, see the, in the eighties in technology, like everything got fixed by blowing on it. Um, so like the VHS tape wasn't working. You blew on it. The, the Nintendo cartridge. Yep. You blew in that and then blew in the box. Mm-hmm. . So that was, you know, eighties in the nineties, you have cell phones come, you got the Discman mm-hmm. that I remember. I would, as the nineties I would run or exercise with a discman, but I had to be careful not to run too hard because the CD would skip Yeah.

Nick Clason (05:17):
As I skipping. I

Derry Prenkert (05:18):
Remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, early two thousands social media in MySpace shows up. Yep. But, you know, garins show up, Uhhuh, um, digital cameras are a big deal in another 2000 flat screen TVs. Right. So we walk through these different, different moments and I say in 2007, Steve Jobs holds up this, this little device. And everything I just said was around in those different decades now lives inside this single device. Mm. Interesting. It is your video games. It is your music, you know, it's your disc man, it's your VCR or your DVD player. It is your

Nick Clason (05:53):
Computer, your calendar. Yeah.

Derry Prenkert (05:55):
Yeah. It's everything. It's all there. And, and so for parents, it's just saying like, recognize how significant this shift is. And so for those of us in ministry, if we are in that age, it's important to recognize that for those of us that are, I I, a lot of youth pastors are maybe a little, um, younger than the parents that they have. Right. Remember, like, these are the parents you're working with that, that this shift has happened. It might be a little more native to you as a youth pastor if you're in your, your mid to early twenties mm-hmm. . But it's foreign. It's, it's, it's so different and, and it's, it's changed so much. Um, the two things to kind of say, when I look at youth culture, cuz that's where I spent a lot of my time Yeah. That I would say are huge, is, uh, one youth group in church.

Derry Prenkert (06:40):
I was at a church that ha drew from multiple high schools. And pre 2007, we were the place to go to connect with friends. Hmm. Um, now we saw God move and we were, we were, we were unapologetic that that wasn't the, that wasn't the primary point. The primary point was to encounter a relationship with Jesus, to understand your call, to be a part of this kingdom work. But the appeal for my kids, I'm gonna drop names that nobody knows from Wawa c high school at Northwood High School. Mm-hmm. and Goshan High School. Someone knows each other. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, uh, they can meet weekly at our place. Right. Uh, now with the institution of not only, you know, the, just the move of the cell phone with texting, but then once the iPhone came in, it wasn't just you, you could, you didn't have to go there to meet a place you could actually interact face to face, you know, through FaceTime, through, through, um, whatever it might be.

Derry Prenkert (07:33):
Google Meet all do different stuff. You could, you could do that over the phone. So it became less important. The other thing that's super intriguing is, I don't know about Eich, but the greatest day of my life, uh, as a teenager was when I turned 16 in one month in my town, because that was the day I could get my driver's license. Yeah. And by getting my driver's license, that meant a whole new, uh, level of freedom, empowerment, and ownership. Like that driver's license was my ticket to independence. Yeah. I've noticed, um, a major change. I can't believe how many kids I interact with that are like 16, 17 and, you know, we're doing an event. They're like, Hey, can I get a ride? I'm like, You don't have your license yet. Yeah. No. And, and, and, and I I don't have like the scientific proof to this, just the conversation.

Derry Prenkert (08:25):
Sure. It's, they're like, Why would I, why would I need it? Well, yeah, the big shift came like that that license was my way to get to my friends. Mm-hmm. and my community. Now, this, this thing that we can hold in our hands is our ticket to interact. And so, so like one of the, I guess like the big implication that I would throw out that is huge is it it has radically transformed our connectivity mm-hmm. , um, even with the people right next to us. Yeah. Um, so I mean, so many other thoughts, but there's, those are just a couple things like that we recognize. Another way I say it is like we basically now are carrying around super computers in our pockets. Yeah. That, uh, it's, they are that we're, we have, we have excessive, uh, access to information. We are, we are constantly connected. Um, and it's like invasive, you know, it's not like it's, when's the last time I I I, you can answer this or the people are listening, When's the last time you actually turned off powered down your phone

Nick Clason (09:26):
On your own? Well, mine's new, so never

Derry Prenkert (09:29):
Yeah. .

Nick Clason (09:30):
Right,

Derry Prenkert (09:30):
Right. And it's, it's like impossible to, like, they've made it so it's hard to do. And so it's always there. Now, now I might sound like I'm interesting. Yeah. I'm negative on this. I do mourn more in some things because I'm old and I'm an old guy sitting saying, Get off my lawn kids. You know, a little bit. But, um, but those are some of the things that I think are big that have changed. And so, so just the way we go about ministry has to change with it. It is in my mind, we measure time on before and after like, events that come to mind in youth ministry world, most youth pastors that were around before Columbine mm-hmm. and after Columbine, they know it changed the way you had to handle liabilities and safety

Nick Clason (10:10):
Measures. Yeah.

Derry Prenkert (10:11):
Mm-hmm. pre nine 11. Post nine 11 as a, as a culture, our life shifted on how we view, uh, things pre covid, post covid. We're still learning that all. Yeah. I still could make the argument pre iPhone and post iPhone, pre smartphone and post iPhone could be, could be the most significant watershed cultural moment that we've experienced in the LA since World War ii. Yeah.

Nick Clason (10:35):
I don't, one of, one of like, I, one of the guys I listen to a lot, his name, you know, Brady Shear mm-hmm. , he talks about this being the biggest communication shift that we've seen in 500 years. So he's referencing that being the printing press. Yeah. And now with all this digital stuff. So that's a great call. Let's go like, let's go there a little bit. You said, um, pre iPhone people would gather from multiple high schools to your church. Did you notice that stopping, um, after, did you notice attendance shifting or did you just notice that still happens but there's, there's now just an iPhone in everyone's pocket and that's changing how they're interacting. But things are still, still sort of the same. Like, what would you say was, uh, like a, an actual effect, right? Yeah. Of that attendance thing you're talking about.

Derry Prenkert (11:25):
This is not scientific at all. It's very guttural and it's nature. Uh, and it's my experience, I would say it didn't, for some it stopped. But I would say the bigger thing is it got more sporadic. In fact, you we're just talking, I don't know, it would be fascinating. You know, they talk about how people are coming to church less often Right. Than they used to. That a regular attendant is, attender is considered once every month or once every three weeks. Right? Yep. I wonder how that correlates to the institution of like the, the actual cell phone and smartphone because Yeah, because that was the thing. Like pre pre smartphone, um, even kids from the same school, there was the chance to just, you know, we're not just going through in passing periods. We're gonna have a small group time. We're gonna have a pre hangout post hangout mm-hmm.

Derry Prenkert (12:09):
once a week. This is my guaranteed time. I'm gonna get time with my friends. Yeah. Um, and so it got more sporadic. Yeah. Uh, definitely. And, and that could be in part because they could have the community outside of the youth group. Um, but it still, that's why I would, I would still be a firm believer. There is a limitation to what you can accomplish over digital. I think anybody that truly had to walk through the PA pandemic and live completely on a screen would a hundred percent agree with me. You can't replace, um, interpersonal in person reaction Totally. With digital. But you can find more connection or, or you can find connection in the gaps through that. And so I think it got more, um, more sporadic, uh, in nature. And yes, they are showing up with them. And I mean, man, whew, how many conversations do I have?

Derry Prenkert (12:58):
I had with parents and leaders on, We gotta, we gotta, we gotta like force kids to turn these off or tell 'em they can't have 'em at all. And then, and then the issue of parents talking about what age do I give my kid a phone? When do I not? Because not only are they carrying it around, I mean, it's just, it's just there. And so the amount of attention that was going down to it when they were around that, that I'd say kinda really hit in the two, like 2014 15 phrase when everybody got one. Mm-hmm. , uh, everybody had one.

Nick Clason (13:28):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, even my kids in first grade and his teacher sended stuff on his like e backpack and then his like e folder and he has like iPad time. Like, so my sort of thing is, while you may lament the loss of some of what was prefo and pre-technology, um, it's not going anywhere. And so, you know, cuz I, I'm with you sometimes I have leaders who are like, We just need to get rid of the phones, take 'em away from the kids. Like make sure that they, you know, only use paper bibles and that, you know, it's, it's wrong to read God's word on a screen type of thing. And that's, that's a high preference maybe mm-hmm. . And there may be some validity to some of those things, but the fact of the matter is like, why, You know, my argument is why are we discouraging a kid from reading the Bible if it's super accessible to them and in their pocket 24 hours a day?

Nick Clason (14:25):
Um, you know, so, So what have you noticed or what are some of the things that you've done realizing like, we can't, we can't get ourselves away from these. They are everywhere. They're on all the time. They are our everything. Our day planner, our calendar and our social life in a lot of ways. You know, like what are some of the things that you've, you've tried to embrace as a youth pastor, um, to maybe leverage them or lean into them and then maybe what are some of the times that you've discouraged use of them? Because you're like the, the, you know, the re the result of what's gonna happen here physically is gonna be greater than what is happening if you're on your

Derry Prenkert (15:02):
Phone. Yeah. It's great. Um, in the thing I do with parents, which total shameless plug, it's actually on D ym, you get it, download Youth Mystery

Nick Clason (15:12):
And then you have an extra $4 in your pocket. Yeah, yeah,

Derry Prenkert (15:15):
Yeah. From that roof. Yeah. It's called Adolescents Parenting and Technology. I use an illustration. I, and I, it's an illustration that, that hit me is our phones are a knife, um, and a knife, uh, can serve many purposes. Uh, a knife is, can be used to spread butter. It can be used to whittle wood to make, uh, amazing things. It can be, it can be, uh, used to, you know, cut through things that are hard to cut through. It also can be used to kill people. Um, it's really about what is happening with the person that has it in their hands. And a part of that is what's their intentions as well as what's their awareness of a knife. You know, I've got, you've got younger kids. Mm-hmm. , I had a six year old that early on, he just got us obsessed with our steak knives when he was three or four.

Derry Prenkert (16:03):
And we had to like, put those things up high cuz he just, he didn't understand the danger involving those knives. Right. Um, and, and so, uh, so with that, like, with that illustration in mind and looking at it that way, I, I look at this thing, a knife is really, for the most part neutral. Unless it's this crazy butcher knife that is, for the most part, a knife is neutral. It's what you're doing with it in your hands. So then it becomes about making sure to check your motives as well as prepare the person that has it in their hands to use it in the right way and to know how to use it in the right way. And, um, I think in that, like, especially if we're talking to ministers and I, I would put this across the board, in fact mm-hmm. , I would argue that senior pastors teaching pastors should be coaching, uh, 50, 60 year olds how to utilize their phones wisely, even more so than those that are just growing up with it, a native part of their life.

Derry Prenkert (17:03):
Hmm. Um, cuz I don't see a lot of students, uh, just making a fool of themselves on how they treat people on, on social media is, uh, as much as I see adults, uh, in what they're saying and everything else. So, so the, it's across the board. Like we have a responsibility to look at what does scripture say about, especially from a discipleship aspect of how we are to love our neighbors ourselves, and then how does it play out on this thing, you know? Mm-hmm. . So, so that would be, that would be a thing. So, um, so that's just, sorry, little rant there, but the knife and, and, and we, we have a responsibility to show them. Uh, I am a big fan Nick, of just intentionality in ministry overall. I think a lot of pastors, uh, I'm, I'm dedicating really, I feel like the second, second half of my life is I just want youth pastors and any pastors to be healthy in ministry.

Derry Prenkert (17:53):
And a big part of that is guarding your own heart. Um, another part is just thinking clearly and strategically in Christ's focus and inten and intentionality in what you're doing is a big part of that. Um, and so I would, I would argue that anybody that is in charge of a program, uh, a ministry, uh, any regular ministry gathering, there should be a side to say, Okay, what's our philosophy in how phones play into this? Mm-hmm. . And it can take up a lot of different forms. Yeah. One is what's our, so we're gonna be teaching this series, How's it showing up on their phones? Mm-hmm. , are we gonna do digital notes that they can look at while they're in the room? Are we going to do follow up stuff through social media that's gonna create interaction? Um, you've done some great stuff on the importance of don't just use your social media of as a, as a billboard that uses this interactive place.

Derry Prenkert (18:47):
You know, thinking through those things. Mm-hmm. , um, how are we going to actually handle the phones inside the space? What are, are, are, uh, uh, to what, what do we need to take into account if a middle school, I, I'm helping out in middle school right now, and I'm at a pretty conservative community mm-hmm. where I'd say it's six through eight grade, I would say no more than half the kids are, are actually walking in with smartphones. Now I know some would go, That's ridiculous. Well, that's my community. Sure. So I need to be thinking through, um, that I, I have to have a path for the non phone user. Right. But also I need to be thinking through for the phone user to begin to show them now. Like, Hey, if you're gonna follow Jesus, that plays out in this thing. Yeah.

Derry Prenkert (19:28):
So how do we do that? So what, what am I teaching? You know, when I get to the practical steps of my teaching, how am I intentionally saying, Hey, this is how this plays out on your phone. You know, that can be a part of it. Um, and then, and then I think, uh, there's just the overall, uh, idea of, I, I have kind of these categories I think through that I want to try to do inside the programming. And this is very youth ministry specific. I want to have times where, uh, where they have it and it's on, but they're encouraged to put it to, to the side mm-hmm. and not access it at all. Because, because we need to be able to do that in real life at times. Mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. . And so small groups, a lot of times, I don't know if you have this some, sometimes they'll do like the basket or, or, or things to say, Hey, it's here.

Derry Prenkert (20:14):
Or just even stack them in the middle of the room like, it's here, but we're not gonna use Oh yeah. Use that right now. Yeah. And, um, or it's just even a, Hey, let's put this in our pockets. Just hang tight with me for a little bit. Um, then there's then there's times where it's like off or not there at all. And we can talk about that one a little bit more. Probably it'd be a good one of, of, Hey, this is a no cell phone situation. Yeah. I think that's very debatable on how much we're often, but there's times where it's important to just, I mean, uh, solitude, simplicity, um, making sure that we're not controlled by things all apart of following Jesus. But then most importantly is we're gonna have times where we use this thing in a redemptive manner. Yeah. Um, we're gonna find ways.

Derry Prenkert (20:57):
So, so we are closing out and we've talked about, uh, the importance of praying for others and what ha you know, maybe we're doing a series on prayer and it's about praying for others. And, and what we say is, Okay, here's what we're gonna do right now. If you have a phone, I want you to pull it out and I'm just gonna ask the Lord to speak to us, to give you a name right now as somebody you could pray for. Hmm. And, and now I want you to pull out your phone and I want you to text them, not not, not text them that you are praying for them, actually text out what your prayer for them is. Hmm. Or when you walk out the room tonight, I want you to use that little voice memo thing. I did this this morning. Uh, I got a friend who just started first day in ministry today. I, I did a voice memo to him that was just solely my prayer and that was it. Like, here's my prayer for you today as you started on ministry. Yeah. That's cool. So, so finding ways to use it, redemptively. So again, I kind of went different, but use it redemptively. Find ways to put it to the side, find ways to turn it off or not have it there at all. And do all of that intentionally.

Nick Clason (21:51):
Yeah. I mean, a lot, a lot of what we say on here is that digital and physical, uh, both are important, but they're both categorically different. And so that's why I do think there is value in things that are strictly physical only. I think, like you said, we learned a lot of things about ourselves and people during covid when what was physical could not be completely replicated digitally. Yeah. Um, and vice versa. Right. And that's, that's the thing too, is like, I think the vice versa piece is like, there are some digital things that are digital only, like mm-hmm. me. Like you can do message recaps and, and things like that where you're calling back to what you did, um, throughout the week. Like on things like social media where people are not physically gathering in your room on a Tuesday morning, or they can be reading a u version plan on their own when they wake up on Thursday afternoon, you know, at lunch, whatever.

Nick Clason (22:46):
So mm-hmm. , that's, that's this whole idea of hybrid is it's, there is room for, for physical only. And there's also space, I think for digital. And that's part of the thing is we've, and I think a lot of churches are kind of running up into this, is they're, uh, Hey, you're, you're a youth pastor so you have to do all of it. Mm-hmm. , it's like these are two completely like different lanes. And so there's, I mean, there's staffing conversations and budget conversations I think like around all these things that are gonna be coming, coming down the pike at, at churches, so mm-hmm. , what would you say are times, um, maybe where you would, you would say, Hey, let's put phones away all together. Maybe talk about like camp situation Sure. Or, or retreats or whatever. Yeah. I'm sure that's probably one of the, the main ones that comes to people's minds.

Derry Prenkert (23:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Nick, you and I are a part of different youth ministry communities. Um, Facebook groups are a wonderful mess at times. . And one of the, one of the hot topics amongst many other things is when this gets asked of, Hey, what's your policy on cell phones? And it's interesting. It's like just hot takes start firing all over the place. Right. So, um, I was a part of one church for 23 years mm-hmm. , and I was a part of another church for 2.3 years. That's my little joke, uhha. But, um, , uh, in the one church that I was at for 23 years that I also grew up where technology was unfolded. And we, we had a hard and fast rule that really any trip that we did, we started with the idea of no cell phones would be allowed. And it was because we had a high emphasis on interactivity and, and, and it, cell phones weren't around when we set the rule.

Derry Prenkert (24:24):
It was, you can't bring your walkmans, your discmans your game boys because we're here to interact with each other. And the minute you look down on that thing, you're not there. So that just kind of lended itself over to cell phones and everything else. Mm-hmm. . And so, um, so any camp retreat, anything like that, we just, we put a pretty hard and fast rule with the one except perception being our senior retreat that we do with grads. We'd say, Hey, you can bring it. It was almost like this. Oh, you're old enough now. I, I don't know that I liked the motives in it, um, in, in it all. So, but then I went to, uh, another church where it was like, you can have them all the time mm-hmm. . Um, which, and the interesting thing I saw was effective ministry was taking place in both situations.

Derry Prenkert (25:09):
Um, but we hadn't really stopped and re strategized in my 23 year church to say, Hey, we're kind of, we kind of just stumbled into this, but these things are so much a part of his life. So we need to understand when we ask a kid to leave theirself at home, we're asking them to leave their most prized valuable mm-hmm. , um, possession mm-hmm. at home. Um, and then at the other church it was like, it's all there. But where we really said, Hey, how are we, are we, are we assessing how we're we're using these? And so I don't, I don't come from the mindset that says definitely no. Or definitely yes. As much as, again, back to that word, intentionality. Yeah. Um, have a plan. Yeah. Talk about it. So, so where we really landed, where at the church I was just at, was, um, if the event is going to be primarily focused on those that don't know Jesus coming into the situation, we're gonna be very hesitant to say he phones.

Derry Prenkert (26:06):
Yeah. Because they're not gonna get the idea of it. If the event is, is high, um, service based, um, intentional discipleship mm-hmm. and deepening, we're gonna stop and say, Hey, you know what, let's, this might be a time, Yeah. Let's evaluate this, where we're gonna maybe more lean toward this is a no-go, but then we're gonna say, here's why it's a no-go. If it's heavy discipleship, it's gonna say, this is gonna be a significant time. Where the primary things we're gonna do is we're gonna focus in on your connection with God and your connection with others, and we're gonna challenge you to find ways to do that outside of the technical technological world. Can you do that inside the technological world? Absolutely. But we see the value of a break. Um, and so that's kind of where we landed. Uh, but I mean the, the, I'm back, I'm back around the church that I was at for 23 years, though a lot of the rules are still in place that if it's a trip or retreat, it's no go. The interesting thing is, um, parents hated a whole lot more than students did.

Nick Clason (27:03):
Yeah. Now they were the one were noticing that too. Yep.

Derry Prenkert (27:05):
Yeah. If you, I would argue you wanna try to institute a no cell phone rule and you don't have it, it's gonna be really hard and it may not be worth the fight and it won't be because the kids, it's gonna be the parents. Parents are be, How do I get a hold of Johnny? Yeah. And, you know, in whatever case. Um, but, but when we take seniors on the retreat, when we were taking them, you know, and we'd allow to have phones, it just naturally had come up in conversations. They would go, Wait, are you gonna start allowing this for other kids on your, on, on campus? Like, we didn't have. And and I'm like, and, and I'd get into the conversation with 'em like, Oh, are you ticked because you had to suffer through not having 'em. Yeah. And you're, and you wanna make sure they get punished like you did.

Derry Prenkert (27:42):
And the seniors would be like, No, no. Like, I'd love that. We didn't have 'em. Yeah. I, I I actually would come back from camp. So grateful that you really pushed that on us for that time. Mm-hmm. . Now, is that right or wrong? No, I, I like, does that mean that you absolutely shouldn't do it? No, but it was just, it's an interesting aspect to it all. So again, long, long talking to just say it's about intentionality, it's about thinking through why would we want to do this? Mm-hmm. and then, and then making sure to communicate to those that are participating. And if it's in youth ministry, the parents of saying here's why. Yeah. Um, and then being ready for a fight, if you wanna say No phones. Cause it's, it's a challenge.

Nick Clason (28:20):
Yeah. That, No, that's really good. And again, right, like there's things that only physical can accomplish and there's things that only digital can accomplish. And I think an experience like a camp or whatever, there is a lot of connection that needs to take place. And most students, and you know, back to what you said earlier, people in church like don't know how to live in a world where it's just that where their phone isn't constantly dinging or lighting up or vying for their attention. And so I, I too have noticed in those types of environments where students, people are like grateful and thankful or say, man, like I'm, I haven't even like, wanted my phone. They're kinda surprised by it. You know, that that's, that's kind of the case. So Yeah. It's so

Derry Prenkert (29:05):
Interesting. Can I give two practical, just real practical tips if you choose to do no phones, especially if you're a youth pastor. Yeah, yeah. Um, one is bring in a, at at least one, maybe multiple people who's their sole job is to capture photos and videos of the experience mm-hmm. . And at the beginning of the experience, make sure that the students know who that person is, because one of the things you're asking them to sacrifice is

Nick Clason (29:28):
Capturing, capturing

Derry Prenkert (29:30):
The memories

Nick Clason (29:30):
Of

Derry Prenkert (29:31):
It all. And that's bigger than ever, right? Yeah. Because they can do that. And so making sure that that's there, and then making all those photos and videos available as soon as you possibly can. Um, and I, I noticed that, um, the, a camp I was at this summer there, the photographer was actually uploading those, um, to their social media platform, like with a link while the camp was there, even though the kids didn't have phones, so that as soon as they got home within like one hour, the kids were like posting their, you know, their real, their reels that recaps, like that's good. Building up all the stuff on the, That's really good. So I think that's a big one. And then two is think through your strategic feedback loop to parents. The parent freakout is, I don't, I, how do I know? Well mm-hmm.

Derry Prenkert (30:14):
, if you have a, a way of saying, Hey, here's, here's where you can go, um, whether it's a Facebook page or group, or if it's your Instagram, or if it's even like a, a remind, uh, setup or whatever, texting, like, here's where it's at. We found that Facebook lives where you could at a camp mm-hmm. , um, actually doing a, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go live at this time. I'm actually gonna give you a little glimpse into the session just for a short bit so you can just see what's going on and then come back and update you. And the beauty of a Facebook Live, every parent is still on Facebook, uh, for the most part. So they, they, they're there and so they can jump on live and then you can let it sit there. So, um, but those two things will, will go a long way in helping the resistance you might get. Um, when it comes to the no phone

Nick Clason (31:00):
Rule. Yeah. We, we, we do, we've done like a photographer and my, my favorite, and it always depends on like if the church or I have the budget to pull this off, but like get a videographer as well, or the same person, um, and have them do a daily, like, recap video. Those are great for opening your like sessions, but they're also amazing to throw up on YouTube and then text a link out. And so, you know, parents who, uh, send their kids without phone or whatever, they feel this like sense of relief if like they see their kid. Absolutely. Then the downside is one, one time I had to, uh, remove a clip because a kid was like picking his nose and the mom like, wanted it out. Yeah. Um, and then another time ano a mom was like, I haven't seen my kid in any of the recap bees. Yeah. And I'm trying not to freak out, but like, are they having fun? Like, are they making friends? Like, and I get it, like as a, as a dad myself, you know, now, like I would also want to try and like lay eyes on my kids. So

Derry Prenkert (32:01):
Totally same. Totally same. Actually Gabe, the pastor at the church that I'm serving with now, he did a meal time at camp and he just said, Okay, who needs to see their kid Facebook Live, , who needs to see their kid? And he just went around and said, funny. And he put up the phone, he said, Tell your mom you're okay. And, and it was like one of the most viewed Yeah. There are a lot of people there, so Yeah. And that is legit. And it's, you gotta be ready for it for that whole world. And, um, it is, that is evidence again, of the different world. And, and as a parent of a high schooler and a middle schooler, I wasn't at the high school camp. I was at the middle school camp. I was watching for my kid. Yeah.

Derry Prenkert (32:38):
That I didn't quite quite realize. So.

Nick Clason (32:40):
All right. Last, last thing. Um, how can we, as pastors, people in ministry, what are ways there that you see that we can optimize technology, um, now Cause like the overall mission, right? Of the church mm-hmm. to make disciples. And Paul used, you know, the thing available to him writing letters at the time to reach churches that he was not near. So what are some ways, just maybe a couple ideas off the top of your head that you have seen effective or ideas that maybe you haven't seen totally fleshed out, but are ruminating inside. Like Yeah. Where we can use what is available to us in technology. I mean, even the fact that I'm sitting in Texas here in northern Indiana and we're having this conversation and we're seeing each other, like, that's an advantage that wasn't available to us pre 2007. Right. And so, uh, what are some of those things maybe that you have seen or have thought about that we can use to our advantage to help kids take steps closer to Jesus?

Derry Prenkert (33:40):
Yeah. Let me throw you a little bit of a curve on where I might go with this to start only, um, in that I've been a part of large to very large churches mm-hmm. , and you've been a part of larger churches where there's a budget that's available and mass communication through technology. And so our minds might immediately go to Yeah. Podcasts and video streams mm-hmm. and, uh, you know, Instagram and getting somehow in with you version so you can build up a Bible reading plan. And I Yes. Yeah.

Nick Clason (34:10):
But I would it if you can

Derry Prenkert (34:11):
Yeah. I would say pastors and ministers to remember to that this is an incredible one to one ministry tool still mm-hmm. . And so, um, and, and this has gotten especially big to me as I've shifted over into this world now where my primary job that I says God's called me to is just to pastor pastors, especially those that are youth pastors. Well, they're all over the nation. Yeah. And so, um, last night, Sunday night for me, I'm recognizing I was just like, Lord, who are the people right now that might just kind of be in that spot that a word of encouragement or a check-in could go a long way? And there were, there were four texts that were sent out to individuals going, Hey, you're on my mind. How did today go? Or what's going on in your mind? Woke up this morning and like I already told you about, there was one guy that is first day he shifted from the education world to the church world.

Derry Prenkert (35:03):
Hmm. And so, um, so I, I would just start by saying yes, I mean, as we think about the massive ways to do it, let's not forget that pastoring at its best that's good is a one to one, a one to three relationship mm-hmm. . And so, uh, connecting with our parishioners are people that we're discipling, whoever they might be, uh, through the phone and doing it healthily and thinking through safeguards and all those things are really important, especially for youth pastors. Um, which probably is a whole other episode to talk through at some point. . Yeah. But, um, but to understand like, this is a ministry tool at its core. And so a a properly placed text, phone call, FaceTime, um, like, or comment on a, um, on a, on a post, uh, can is, is ministry, like, is deep ministry and meaningful ministry at times.

Derry Prenkert (35:53):
Mm-hmm. . Um, That's great. It was interesting Nick, uh, my former youth pastor, uh, my dad died 10, uh, 13 years ago now, and my former youth minister is no longer in youth ministry. And, but it was an incredible influence on my life. Mm-hmm. . And it was about, uh, it was, it was right around eight years after my dad had died, I posted just a memory of him and below in the comment section, my old youth pastor got on and he, all he wrote was, I'm so proud of you Derry. And I read that and I lost it. And, and I talked to him and, and what happened in that moment was like, I realized, uh, can, like, thank you. I miss I miss having my dad, and I'm not, I don't have a dad that can physically say to me, I'm proud of you anymore.

Derry Prenkert (36:39):
And I'm, I'm like a 36 year old man, like blubbering over my youth pastor telling me he's proud of me. But it's because he, he, in that moment, he ministered to me through a simple comment on a Facebook group mm-hmm. that also helped me work through some grieving that I was at. I hadn't really just walked through and said, God, I'm kind of ticked, I'm kind of ticked right now because I've lost, like, why did this happen? And, and it helped me kind of break through to a new level. And so, so anyway, like just, I, I, that's the one thing I would just say is as we think through the strategic and the greater stuff, let's not forget this is a incredible tool for the most effective ministry that is relational and personal in nature. That's good. That's good. Um, um, I would say otherwise though too is, um, I have a good friend, John McAllen, Johnny Mack, he did this thing, he started, it was called Echo Ministry.

Derry Prenkert (37:25):
And the idea was how do you take and create echos of what's happening on the, on the weekend? How do you have the message echo through the rest of the week? And our technology, our cell phones are such a primary tool to make that happen. You said it so well, there are things that we can do now because we have these, um, where it can show up in the moment, in, in different ways, uh, whether it's, uh, uh, a thinking through, uh, devotional journey, like I said, through you version. Mm-hmm. , uh, uh, the youth group that I just was at for the last couple of years, they're doing a thing called sale up Moments every week. They have just one moment that, that where they, they use on social media where they say, Okay, you're scrolling through, but stop, exhale, um, and listen to God allow 'em to speak to you.

Derry Prenkert (38:16):
You know? And there's a whole acronym to it. I can't remember what the H was good. Yeah. I like that. You know, have a burger, I think was the last, no, I can't remember what the H was, but, um, they, they, they walked through it and, and so using that was, um, was, was a way to do it. So I, I think it's that matter of how can we echo it mm-hmm. . And there's a lot, you know, podcasts can be a part of it. Uh, I started something called Digging Deeper with our main services when I was, uh, at my own church. And, and what we did was every Wednesday I would sit down with whoever was preaching mm-hmm. . And if I, I, I was a part of the teaching time. If I was preaching, somebody else would come in and the first thing we'd say, Hey, hey, what hit the cutting room floor?

Derry Prenkert (38:53):
What were you not able to get to this weekend that you wish you could have? And people just love that aspect, but then we would pick it part a little bit more mm-hmm. . And so, and it, it's not hard. It's a, you know, get, get a little basic, um, Yeah. Recording set up and you can get it set up pretty easy. Um, and so there's just so many ways, but I would just start with the, like, how can we echo into the week, what happened on the weekend Yep. And use it on a digital format.

Nick Clason (39:16):
Yeah. No, that's good. I, I also personally think that we don't know yet like, the answer to some of these questions. Yeah. Like, I still think that there's, uh, things yet to be discovered, you know, in front of us. And so I think, uh, if there's any sort of like, challenge for anyone listening, I would just say like, just do something. Um, and you may stumble upon something great. You may find some stuff that's terrible and you need to cut it out. Um, but if you're, if you're always looking that direction, uh, you'll, you'll stumble upon something good that you maybe don't even know, or you maybe didn't, you know, you maybe weren't even able to see it right now when you started it because of a limited technology or budget or whatever. And so just be looking for ways. Cuz like I said, it's less, I think, I personally think it's easy to make digital about being flashy, um, or whatever, looking good to parents or other youth pastors or other people in ministry, whatever.

Nick Clason (40:15):
But I think it's far less about that for me at least, and it's more about how effective can I be in spreading the message of Jesus with all the tools that he's given to me. Yeah. Like, I'm, I'm alive in 2022 with access to podcast microphones and phones that can take incredible videos and pictures, like mm-hmm. , how am I going to use steward those things to reach the most amount of people, you know, that have an audience to reach. So I think that's, that would be my challenge to whoever's listening is think what Dare said, think through all the things that, with intentionality, Um, and then just be open, you know, to, to utilizing some stuff.

Derry Prenkert (40:52):
So yeah. You're, you're so right on. We don't have it all figured out. Probably one of my greatest pet peeves in life are, uh, those that are convinced they have it all figured out. Um, Yeah. and I, I, I can do that at times. And usually when I'm at that point and I'm like, Oh yeah, I know how to do this. Mm-hmm. , that's the moment when I will fall flat on my face. And so, so there's a ton to be learned. There's a ton to be determined I love, or

Nick Clason (41:14):
That's when a new iPhone comes out, Right. And you're like, Oh, this changed everything. Or Covid hit and this changed everything. So yes. Totally. Good. Yes. I think we're living through that. Well, hey man. Um, anything else off top of your head? You don't have to, but I just wanna make sure you said everything you wanted to say. Didn't leave anything unsaid.

Derry Prenkert (41:30):
I think the only thing I would maybe end with is in that same vein is, um, it's everywhere. It's so much. Uh, also don't be afraid to not feel like you have to do everything, you know? Um, uh, especially to the minister that's trying to think through how to do effectively. There is a, there is a moment where less is more because your soul needs to rest, you know? Mm-hmm. , if you're finding yourself trying to, uh, late at night when you should be being around your family, invest your family or on your day off going, this is the time while Ill dive into all this digital stuff. Eh, you know what, maybe, maybe that's, uh, not worth it. No, not, maybe it definitely is not worth it. Definitely not worth, There's just, that's the part of like this thing, there's just so much out there. Mm-hmm. don't, I, I I guess it's like that idea of don't gain the digital world at the cost of your soul. Yeah. good is, is, is a big thing. And I just, I say that out of a season where I'm just seeing so many of us burn out. Um, and we're burning out in a lot of different ways, but one is because we're just constantly on and we don't hit the off switch. That's

Nick Clason (42:34):
Good. That's good. Love it, man. Well, hey, thanks again. Uh, you referenced a couple things in here. I'll toss 'em in show notes, like your resource on D ym so that all tens of our listeners can go get it. There you go. Um, anyway, thanks for hanging out man. And uh, absolutely. We'll chat again. Chat again. Yeah. Awesome.

Nick Clason (42:52):
Well, wasn't that great, Uh, super thoughtful, super helpful. Um, I hope that you found this interesting and helpful as well. Hey, um, we are online on Twitter at Hybrid Ministry. Would love to have you come hang out, follow us over there. Um, we're still growing, not super active yet, but, uh, we're well on our way. And also everything you need, show notes, links, transcripts, all kinds of stuff. You can find out hybrid ministry.xyz along with a now growing bank of archive and older episodes. So if you're just not stumbling upon us, we'd love to have you go back and check it out. Uh, you can do all of that at hybridministry.xyz Ze. Again, thanks for being with us today and we'll chat next time.