Hybrid Ministry - Episodes Tagged with “Discipleship”

Episode 197: Custom vs Done-For-You Social Media for Churches

Nick Clason — Thu, 16 Apr 2026 05:00:00 -0500

Social Media is like the beast that never sleeps.
In this episode, I have two experts to argue both social media philosophies.
Should you use a pack that's done for you, so you can set it and forget it?
Or should you focus on more custom content for your church instagram feeds?

Find out, listen to the debate, and you decide!

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🕰️TIMECODES
00:00 Social Media for Youth Ministry
00:39 The Guest Today?
01:53 Custom Social Intro
02:52 Done For You Intro
03:52 Why Done For You Social Media?
05:54 Why Custom Social Media is most effective
07:55 How Long Do You Spend on Social Media?
10:26 Have You Raised up Volunteers?
12:07 Done For You Closing Remarks
13:07 Custom Social Media Closing Argument

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TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:000 - 00:00:02:065
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Youth ministry debates. Welcome to the

00:00:02:065 - 00:00:02:112
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
fourth

00:00:03:002 - 00:00:03:076
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
and

00:00:03:086 - 00:00:04:075
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
debate

00:00:04:085 - 00:00:05:008
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
episode.

00:00:05:033 - 00:00:05:050
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And

00:00:05:050 - 00:00:07:110
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
in this one we are talking all things

00:00:08:013 - 00:00:10:077
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
social media, and I'm debating none

00:00:10:096 - 00:00:11:103
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
other than

00:00:11:113 - 00:00:27:037
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
myself. And I'm going to be taking two different stances. Stance number one is going to be on social media. That is done for you. You download it out of a pack and you just set it and forget it versus social media.

00:00:27:037 - 00:00:39:053
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
That is custom social media that has your own voice and your own face. And we're going to be going head to head. Myself versus myself. Welcome, everybody to the Hybrid Ministry show.

00:00:39:063 - 00:00:49:065
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Well, hey everybody, welcome to the Hybrid Minister's show. If you've not been following along, we are currently at the tail end of a playlist where we've been exploring big youth ministry

00:00:49:075 - 00:01:05:022
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
debates. And in this one, the debate is specifically centered around social media. And rather than trying to find another opposition or another person on the other side, I figured I would genuinely argue this position from each side of the social media aisle.

00:01:05:032 - 00:01:09:020
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Done for you versus custom for you. And so when I'm wearing a

00:01:09:033 - 00:01:10:111
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
black shirt, I'm going to be arguing

00:01:10:119 - 00:01:14:051
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
packs that are done for you, that are set it and forget it. Think

00:01:14:061 - 00:01:15:080
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Sunday social, think

00:01:15:080 - 00:01:19:015
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
nuclear social, think doing membership post.

00:01:19:025 - 00:01:22:111
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And then when I'm wearing a white shirt.

00:01:23:000 - 00:01:38:028
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I'm going to be arguing social media. That's custom, social media that has your own flair, social media that has your own voice in your own face. And so, just like we've programed every single one of these other debate style episodes, that's how we are going to

00:01:38:028 - 00:01:40:080
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
do this with a minute introduction and

00:01:40:080 - 00:01:46:013
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
then two minutes of an argument, then a back and forth Q&A, followed by one minute of closing.

00:01:46:042 - 00:01:53:030
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And welcome to the podcast to argue social media myself. Nicholas.

00:01:53:040 - 00:02:09:105
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. So minute on the clock. So I've been in youth ministry for 15.5 years. Started out small churches in Ohio. Always seen the value and need for social media, digital ministry. In fact, I read a book, or listen to a podcast about exiles in Babylon.

00:02:09:115 - 00:02:18:045
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
It was a Barna book and talked about the value of YouTube and how the next generation is going to be asking some of the heaviest and most theologically based questions on YouTube.

00:02:18:055 - 00:02:40:084
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So to kind of get my gears turning around YouTube, I started a little like YouTube through my church podcast, moved to a church in Chicago the first day Covid hit. And while we were there, obviously we had to come up with a digital and an innovative and innovative digital solution. And while we were doing that, it really like sparked my love, my continued love for social media, YouTube, and just digital ministry.

00:02:40:084 - 00:02:54:060
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so kind of ever since then, I've seen the value of it. I've seen the power behind doing a good job on social media. And then then I moved to Texas. Which next guy can take it away?

00:02:54:069 - 00:03:13:053
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. That's great. So I moved here to Texas in 2022. I came to be, one of my really good friends. His name is Darren. I came to be kind of like his right hand man and, learned a lot of stuff about digital and kind of poured into it and really, like, brought it to life here.

00:03:13:062 - 00:03:28:021
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
In where the in the current setting that I'm serving in, last summer. So about eight months ago, at this point, he stepped away to another role, at another church, and I took over and assumed his role, which is a lot more management, and it's a lot more meetings

00:03:28:021 - 00:03:34:114
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
and a lot more oversight of people. And so my schedule looks like this on screen here.

00:03:34:117 - 00:03:51:098
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
This is a screenshot of my schedule. I actually sent it to him last week complaining. And I'm actually getting ready to hand social media over to a resident because I'm running out of time, no matter how well I'm mapping out and blocking my time. Social media is great, but there are other things that are also taking my attention.

00:03:51:098 - 00:03:56:060
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So, excited to be with you today.

00:03:56:070 - 00:04:22:029
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. Okay, so two minutes on the clock. So, I would say our goal as youth pastors is not to be content creators, not to be social media managers. But our goal as youth pastors and pastors in general, working in the church, our goal is to be disciple makers, and we should be implementing and facilitating, a system and a program that helps move students more meaningfully and significantly towards Jesus.

00:04:22:029 - 00:04:26:038
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so I know and I believe that social media

00:04:26:053 - 00:05:00:036
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
obviously is still important, and I believe that it has a role within the life of the local church. But I also believe that we should be primarily focusing on making disciples. And my argument for why you should consider done for you. Pax is it just while it's important, while social media can be a mechanism for life change and for disseminating the hope and the message of the gospel, I also know that as my calendar gets more and more full, as my plate gets more and more stacked up, and as I have more and more of those proverbial plates spinning, so to speak, that social media

00:05:00:058 - 00:05:14:000
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
is one of the first things to kind of like fall off my radar and so, yeah, so I believe in social media, but I also believe in delegation. And so if you can delegate that either through a team or through a,

00:05:14:011 - 00:05:20:101
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
just downloading a pack of especially like if you're a member, you're already paying for it like it's included.

00:05:20:110 - 00:05:45:009
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
You should go ahead and check something like that out because, while the while like, I believe that we're busy, I believe that social media is important. I also believe that our ultimate goal is to raise up leaders and to help point people towards Jesus. And so if social media is taking that away from me, I don't want to, become less effective as a disciple maker because of social media.

00:05:45:009 - 00:05:57:084
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so because of that, I would recommend that you grab something that's done for you, that's taken care of, and you don't even have to worry about it. And it frees up your time to be the best version. And pastor of you that you can be.

00:05:57:094 - 00:06:23:016
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. So I would say two minutes on the clock. I would say my argument is that in social media, the goal is not to just get your announcements or your information pushed through. It's it's a very, very small part of it. In fact, the goal on social media is engagement, which my argument would be as youth pastors, as ministry leaders in churches, our goal should be engagement across the board.

00:06:23:038 - 00:06:47:118
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
We would want people to engage not just with our church for the sake of engaging with our church. We would hope that they would engage with our church, and that's going to be helping to move and promote them towards and for life change. And so the same thing is true on social media. And just like every single time you're hanging out with a student at Starbucks, you're not only ever posting announcements in the same way that you're, or like you're hanging out at Starbucks.

00:06:47:118 - 00:07:03:107
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
You're not only ever talking about spiritual, so if you're talking about life, you're talking about fun stuff, you're talking about interesting things. And you see, you know, the latest neighbor gets a stand up routine, like whatever that might be. And I think the same thing should be true on social media. And I think you should have a custom fingerprint of our own church.

00:07:03:107 - 00:07:26:012
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Right. And so because of that, I think that helps drive engagement and so people respond to people, people like some of our best performing posts on social media, our faces, not graphics that we cooked up in Canva. And so the more we can get faces, my face, my leaders faces, my senior pastor's face and other students faces, that's the goal on social media.

00:07:26:012 - 00:07:52:046
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so in the same way, like announcements are good, graphics are good, done for you. Stuff is good. But Dunphy can only take you so far because if it's done for you, it means it's also done for many. And if you're just posting something that someone else has already made, that can be done at any given church in any given context across America, only you have been called to be the youth pastor and the shepherd of your church and the students that God has entrusted to you.

00:07:52:057 - 00:07:59:032
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So lean into the customization of that and use it to spread the message of good news and hope of Jesus.

00:07:59:041 - 00:08:09:022
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. Okay. So I have a question for you. Nick. White shirt. Nick, how much time do you spend on social media per week?

00:08:09:032 - 00:08:26:099
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah, so let's see. Good question. I used to spend a lot of time on social media when I was editing our teaching videos. Probably took me ten hours a week between that, and then our other social media content, like our short form content, we finally built up our budget in such a way to be able to pay an editor, which I get.

00:08:26:099 - 00:08:46:069
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
That's a luxury. Not everybody has that. I would also say, like, if you have the potential to just, like, film yourself in the back of the room with a camera. Cameras have come a long way even since I started at this church in Texas. And so you could probably get a decent camera, a decent lens, and a decent like, just, what am I looking for?

00:08:46:069 - 00:09:01:017
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
An adapter into your soundboard? You can probably get that for a thousand $2,000. And again, you might have to work your way up for it. You might find a donor for it. If there is some money for it. But you can put a camera in the back of the room and you can film your messages, and you can use those for clips and stuff like that.

00:09:01:017 - 00:09:14:094
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And then I also come a long way. So to answer your question and spend a lot of time when I've done a lot of the work myself, but do things like opus clip link down below if you want to check that out. If you have some sort of long form version of your message without lower thirds is going to crop it out.

00:09:14:094 - 00:09:39:097
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Opus clip is an amazing solution that will give you clips and chunks of your teaching, and of your messages that you can sprinkle on all throughout social and listen. Maybe video is not even an option for you. Maybe just like record your sermons through soundboard and post to audio. Have an audio sermon like that's still a version of hybrid Ministry of Digital Ministry might not be the most effective just on social media, but there's even ways to do that where you have like the sound wave bar, right?

00:09:39:097 - 00:09:59:056
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And like you can do overlays and B-roll and, and you can do your slides and stuff like that as you clip up some of the things. So like, you don't have to be hamstrung by the equipment side of your, of your life. And then that being said, I built out a whole strategy. I owned it, but then as I've owned it, I've handed it off.

00:09:59:056 - 00:10:17:018
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So on the capturing and creation side, I have a whole team of students who are building that out every single Wednesday night. And then on the editing side, I have a whole team of students, and even some leaders and other staff members who are helping, do some of that. But I don't manage much of it anymore.

00:10:17:018 - 00:10:29:052
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So I would say in an honest assessment, I spend less than an hour per week and have a fully customizable social media, YouTube channel, Instagram, all those things.

00:10:29:062 - 00:10:33:003
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. I mean, my question to you, black shirted Nick would be like,

00:10:33:003 - 00:10:45:034
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I get that you were all about done for you, but have you considered raising up volunteers to give you a hand on some of these things as you've, you know, gotten busier and lost some of your time that you used to have?

00:10:45:044 - 00:11:21:066
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah, actually, yes. I have raised up volunteers in in my space. And that's one of the reasons why, the done for youth stuff. I mean, I'm not so far down the done for you path. It's because of my own prep of raising up volunteers. So I have a couple of students, who I've raised up in who have taught how to run and do social media for themselves, and how they, can, come in at edit off of our computers, our machines, our software that we spend the money for that we've invested in.

00:11:21:075 - 00:11:43:079
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And they have my help, my troubleshooting ability. But if I didn't have them at this current juncture, I'm not sure that I would have as much time to devote towards, you know, five, five, days a week, two posts per day, ten, ten different pieces of content. Like, I don't know that I would have that amount of time to get something like that off the ground.

00:11:43:079 - 00:12:10:093
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So something that's a little more done for you, something that's just a little bit more turnkey. In my current role, with the amount of direct reports I have, with the amount of people that and meetings that I've found myself in. Had I not raised up those volunteers to continue to keep doing what I'm doing as I've stepped into this new leadership role and I'm not I'm not 100% sure how well I would be at launching a brand new hybrid in social media, like kind of ministry and campaign, like right now.

00:12:10:102 - 00:12:21:095
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. So final minute on the clock. My final closing argument is honestly my own social media pack. I don't mean for this to be like self-promotion and like a plug, but the fact of the matter is this is that I

00:12:21:111 - 00:12:32:100
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
have a pack that has a whole done for youth section. In fact, I was just on social media not ten minutes ago, and one of the members from my cohort, I follow their youth ministry.

00:12:32:109 - 00:12:55:086
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I ran across a takes 60s to pray post. I ran across one that I had made and I had created myself. And so I saw another youth ministry. I saw another youth pastor use my content for their own students. And that's why I would recommend this, because sometimes you have the bandwidth, sometimes you have the margin, and sometimes you have the creative energy, but other times you simply don't.

00:12:55:086 - 00:13:09:101
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so you need something that's still good, that's still effective, and that's still going to push the mission of Jesus forward in your space, in your context, in your church. And you can do all that through social media and on your social channels.

00:13:09:111 - 00:13:30:062
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah, right. So my argument is that social media is best when it's custom. People respond best to faces. And you, if you're the youth pastor, you've been called to shepherd your people, which also includes putting your face on your Instagram, on your YouTube, on your TikTok, and, shameless plug my done for you and custom for you social media pack.

00:13:30:062 - 00:13:54:048
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I have four different seasons summer, fall, winter, spring, $17.99. Or you can become a Patreon member, which gives you access to our weekly bonus podcast. And then as a part of that $4 per month membership cost, the $17.99 social media pack will coach you through how to have a custom and hybrid social media ministry. It will give you scripts.

00:13:54:048 - 00:14:10:089
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
It will tell you, it'll give you filming prompts. It will give you man on the street questions with the graphics and the overlays so that your social media can be custom, but it doesn't have to break the bank financially or from a time standpoint. Check it out. Link down below in the description.

00:14:10:099 - 00:14:33:044
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Well, hey, thanks everybody for hanging out on this episode. And I think, and I hope that you're able to tell that my genuine answer is that, yes, it should be custom social media and that yes, it should be done for you. Social media. And I have the perfect tech to blend those two things together. There is information and a link down below in the show notes.

00:14:33:044 - 00:14:53:059
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Or if you just have questions, bro, reach out to me. Shoot me a DM. If you found this episode helpful, interesting, or at least just something comical to laugh at because I was literally debating myself just with a different outfit, then hey, go ahead and give us a like or subscribe. That would be the greatest form of payment, especially if you choose not to go check out the social media pack.

00:14:53:068 - 00:14:57:009
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
But until next time my friends. And as always, don't forget to stay hybrid.

Episode 196: Lock-Ins: Ministry Gold or Total Disaster?

Nick Clason — Thu, 09 Apr 2026 05:00:00 -0500

Lock-ins... is there a more polarizing youth ministry topic?
Should you do them?
Are they valuable?
Or are they the worst idea ever?

In this episode, two youth pastors go head to head, and you get to decide!

Take Advantage of Andrew's FREE Lock-in Planning Session:
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/contact

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SHOW NOTES
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https://www.hybridministry.xyz/196

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//OPUS.PRO FOR AI SHORTS & REELS
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🕰️TIMECODES
00:00 Pro or Anti Lock-in?
02:16 The Argument Against Lock-ins
05:14 The Busy Youth Worker’s Guide to Social Media
06:12 The Argument For Lock-ins
09:11 What Do You do if Kids don’t like boardgames?
10:56 Are Lock-ins only effective for Middle Schoolers?
12:16 What are the “risks” vs the “rewards” of a lock-in?
14:29 Do Lock-ins affect your Sunday morning attendance?
16:43 The Final Argument FOR Lock-ins
18:00 The Final Argument AGAINST Lock-ins
19:09 You decide - who won?

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TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01.102)
Well, what is up everybody? Here I am this morning with Andrew and my new friend Ellen. Good morning everyone. How are we doing this morning?

Ellen Partridge (00:10.995)
Doing good.

Nick Clason (00:12.802)
Hey, are you guys, do you have coffee yet in your systems or is that long gone? All right, okay. They're doing pretty good, right, Michigan State?

Andrew Jansen (00:12.964)
Doing fantastic.

Ellen Partridge (00:16.771)
We're on the first cut. Go Spartans.

Yeah, not as good as Michigan, which is a bummer, but...

Andrew Jansen (00:23.46)
They're doing good.

Nick Clason (00:25.73)
Mm, yeah. And this will drop after March Madness, so we'll all know. Comment down below, like how Michigan did. know, Michigan State, not Michigan. But I'm excited because today we are debating pro lock-in versus anti lock-in. And based on the two people that you see on your screen here, you can probably already tell who's pro lock-in.

Andrew Jansen (00:33.591)
it.

Nick Clason (00:50.9)
and who's anti-lock-in. And so I'm just so excited for you guys to get to, not only get to know these two amazing people, but also hear their positions on this. And so by random draw that happened off screen that you're gonna have to trust me because I'm a pastor and I get paid to tell the truth. Ellen, you get to go first. So one minute on the clock for you. Just introduce yourself, help the people understand your context, where you're at, how long you've been in ministry, all these types of things. Ellen, are you ready?

Ellen Partridge (01:18.751)
Absolutely. I'm ready.

Nick Clason (01:21.58)
Alright, take it away.

Ellen Partridge (01:23.455)
All right, everyone, my name is Ellen Partridge. I serve as the central pastor of students at Thornton Apple Valley Church. We are centralized out of Hastings at Michigan, southwest Michigan. And we are a multi-site church, but I've been in ministry for very close to two decades now. And we're in a rural context and a multi-site context. So things are a little bit different for us versus just the single site.

And when I think about lock-ins, the thing that always comes to mind is the Halt analogy. If you're hungry, if you're angry, if you're tired, what are the things you shouldn't do, which is make decisions. And so we're gonna put students in a room where they are locked in together. You got the ones who, I have a kid in my youth ministry who at camp asked me if I could move our bedtime up to 9 p.m. I let him know that wasn't a thing, but you've got those kind of kids, and then you've got the kids who have snuck in.

all their energy drinks and are going to be up till four in the morning. And those kids that are up are going to be picking on the kids that don't want to be up, that want to be sleeping. And then you've got a lot of that interpersonal conflict that is going on within that. And you're putting that all into a giant space where you're having to entertain them and or keep track of them as they are, you know,

coming up with all of these grand ideas of how they're going to use their time. And I remember back to my youth group days, our youth ministry actually met in a old YMCA building, and for some reason, they did not lock the doors to the locker rooms, and then that locker room led to a empty pool. And I can't confirm or deny if there were children conceived in that pool, but there probably were.

And it was coming from opportunities where we did lock-ins and they let us all throughout this building with lots of classrooms, lots of spaces that should have been locked that were not. And so from that perspective of hungry, angry, tired, lack of ability to, you know, keep an eye on all the students and all the places, I am very anti-lock-in.

Nick Clason (03:43.896)
Well, there you go. Andrew, she blew past introductions just straight into arguments. Brother, she's coming for you, right? Like she is coming in hot. So, Ellen, great argument. Man, I hope no students, babies were conceived in that pool. I don't ever want to swim there. Andrew.

Andrew Jansen (03:49.24)
yeah, just right past it. Yeah, she went right past it and that's okay.

She's coming in hot, yeah, for sure. It's okay.

Ellen Partridge (04:10.12)
Me too.

Andrew Jansen (04:12.365)
Yeah, it's gross.

Nick Clason (04:13.838)
Tell us why Ellen's wrong and why lock-ins are a great idea. But first, give us a little bit of intro as you go. Are you ready, my friend? Let's go, take it away.

Andrew Jansen (04:28.345)
ready. Yeah, hit it. My name is Andrew Janssen. I am a middle school pastor in Manhattan, Kansas. Sorry, a couple years ago, we did play Michigan State and I know you probably knew that but we have nothing to talk about sports wise, hardly at all right now. So that's okay. But I love K State. I love serving in Manhattan. I am 36 years old. I've been a youth pastor for 10 years and

I really love getting to be in Manhattan, getting to work with college students that invest in middle schoolers. That's kind of my passion. And man, I love lock-ins. just, it works within the context of our church is about 1900 people and we work with multi buildings on our campus, but not multi-site, but.

It is just set up in a really easy way to execute and make lock-ins happen. And especially in our season right now where we have, and it changes, we have college students that graduate, but we have like 17, 18 youth coaches right now. And a lot of them enjoy staying up super late. And so it just really worked in this season to be able to have enough people there for a safe lock-in to happen.

Middle schoolers are crazy and love staying up all night, love getting to be like, you can be at the church besides Sunday and Wednesday. And just, it was just really, really awesome. We did a New Year's Eve lock in and they just have so much fun. There's opportunities for fellowship, board games, long extended times that maybe you don't get that opportunity to play through an entire game of exploding kittens or taco cat.

Mahomes cheese pizza, not taco cat goat cheese pizza. We all know Mahomes is the goat. But we play taco cat Mahomes cheese pizza and you get through two rounds and it's time for youth group to start. So we get to play through those games, have those conversations and invest in the students moving forward.

Nick Clason (06:40.494)
Great. All right, well there you have it. Like there's, each of you have laid down the gauntlet with your position, right? Andrews is based upon board games. Ellen's is based upon pools being present. And so with those two things in mind, plus everything else, do either of you have a question for the other that we can debate in a little bit more of an open forum?

Andrew Jansen (06:55.097)
You

Ellen Partridge (07:10.974)
All Andrea, I got one for you. So what do you do with the kids who are not your board game kids? What are your other activities that you're able to do? Because it sounds like you're pretty board game heavy. So how are you keeping the other kids occupied that are not interested in your board games?

Andrew Jansen (07:27.929)
Absolutely. I have, I try to make sure that every single second is accounted for at a lock-in. We have intentional time where it's like, they get to choose. We have our youth building has like carpet ball, foosball, ping pong. We have not a Nintendo switch too, but two Nintendo switches, which is kind of confusing, definitely. But so we have like Mario Kart and Smash Bros going.

Nick Clason (07:49.902)
That could be confusing,

Andrew Jansen (07:56.882)
I really try to get them away from screens as much as I can because we all know that battle. yeah, trying to have every single second with like some sort of activity, some sort of competition tournament. The last time I was on with Nick, we talked about the Assassin's like meta ongoing game that happens throughout the evening and having things like that where there isn't an opportunity to be bored.

really, really is effective with middle schoolers. Because once you were right, once they're bored and exploring and they find a pool and we know what happens next, like there's just something about an empty pool. So, but with middle schoolers, that's not so much like the sneaking off and having that happen. I think that's more of a high school situation, but I just try to make sure every single second is accounted for. And that kind of helps with, you know, not having that boredom.

board game time for the students that don't like board games.

Ellen Partridge (08:57.362)
And notice you keep saying middle school. You're not mentioning high school. So are you saying that lock-ins are only good for middle school or would you do one with high school?

Nick Clason (09:06.072)
Good question.

Andrew Jansen (09:06.325)
I would, that is a great question. I would do a, I would do a high school lock in for sure. I think that you do run that risk. They are a little bit more like, I can kind of put on the dad voice like the, Hey, what are you doing? And they'll just like freeze as a middle schooler. They still, you know, we'll listen to authority when it yells at them. So with high school, they're kind of a little bit more independent, a little bit more calloused and a little bit more.

Like on their own I consider I always use this analogy of like middle schoolers are like dogs and high schoolers are like cats Like dogs are just happy that you're there and happy that you see them high schoolers. You kind of have to earn that relational like equity and I would say yes have a lock-in with high schoolers, but only do it if you have the resources and the adult volunteers and also if you're like

this group is just like, this is a crazy group of high schoolers. It's not always a green light for that specific group of high schoolers if you just feel like that wouldn't be good. Does that make sense?

Ellen Partridge (10:16.934)
Yeah, it's good argument.

Nick Clason (10:18.464)
Andrew, you got a question for Ellen?

Andrew Jansen (10:22.763)
Yes, what do you feel is, like, I want you to tell me what is the, like, risk reward trade off where you feel like, hey, this is too risky to have a lock in for this type of reward.

Ellen Partridge (10:35.422)
Mmm.

Ellen Partridge (10:45.35)
Yeah, it's a great question. I would just say I'm a big fan of like doing late night activities, hanging out super late. The thing that gets me and where I feel like the risk comes in is once you hit that one, two, three, four a.m. that even, and you mentioned that you've got college leaders. I don't live in a college town and so I mostly have adult leaders. And so for me,

I know my adult leaders are not gonna be on their A game coming into that situation. And so for me, the risk in my context is a lot higher that my leaders are gonna start maybe losing their minds or going stir crazy or sleep deprivation is gonna kick in. And it's gonna lead to students, because they're curious, ending up doing things that they don't need to do. And so for me, I would rather do a thing where it's like, hey, we're hanging out till midnight. Your parents are picking you up.

and then maybe we do something again the next morning because then I know they're getting sleep, my leaders are getting sleep, and it also means that I'm not putting them at risk, I'm not putting my leaders at risk. And so for me, there doesn't seem to be necessarily, yes, there's the connection reward, but I wonder if that's always overshadowed by the sleep deprivation, the angry, hangry situations that can come up and also,

I worry for my adult leaders that they're gonna say something out of their own sleep deprivation or frustration after telling the same kid eight times not to do something, that it may end up ultimately hurting a relationship that was good, and then they make a good relationship with someone that they had a bad relationship with, and so you're kind of at a net zero, is kind of how I look at

Nick Clason (12:32.078)
I just feel like the ultimate fact that like, I would rather sleep in my bed at two o'clock in the morning. Like that's my strongest argument for anti-lock-in. Just shooting straight. Plus I enjoy Saturdays and if I am doing a lock-in, I don't know. Also, Andrew, question for you. Do you ever notice that your Sunday morning attendance is affected post a lock-in weekend?

Andrew Jansen (12:32.345)
Definitely fair.

Andrew Jansen (13:02.165)
for sure. I mean, I tell my youth coaches, like, hey, you were just at church for 15 hours. It's OK for you to sleep in. I'll be there because I work there. And students, a lot of times parents will bring them and they might fall asleep or something during a message.

Nick Clason (13:04.027)
hahahaha

Nick Clason (13:13.787)
Yeah

Yeah.

Nick Clason (13:28.622)
Yeah.

Andrew Jansen (13:29.079)
Yeah, think it happens. There are definitely repercussions to having a lock-in, but I just think that there's just a lot of... I've seen so many good things and good conversations and relationships start at lock-ins, and it's just with a certain unchurched group of students, it's just an easy invite. It's just an easy win to get them there.

Nick Clason (13:45.091)
Yeah.

Nick Clason (13:50.382)
Yeah, which and I hear you like Sunday morning, it's like, okay, like, yeah, they didn't come on Sunday morning, which is like the senior pastor's goal. But like we had a lot more effective and fruitful time than like them sitting through a sermon or whatever, like through the lock-in and you know, the times I have done lock-ins, like it's almost always one of the number one most attended events from friends. Like we get, we would have some of our biggest.

Ellen Partridge (14:12.242)
Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (14:16.75)
numbers and biggest reach, you know, as far as outreach is concerned. So I definitely do see like both sides for sure. So those of you listening, you're about to get your opportunity to vote. Ellen, you went first last time. Andrew, we're gonna put a minute on the clock now for you. Give us your final one minute strongest argument why Y lock-ins. Are you ready, my friend? Take it away.

Ellen Partridge (14:30.173)
All right.

Andrew Jansen (14:42.008)
I'm ready.

Lock-ins are definitely the easiest first step in the door with a church. If you have the right resources, if you have the right volunteers, and you have a solid game plan going into it, you know your group of students. I think middle school or high school, it is an easy invite for the unchurched students. And that is kind of the lens in which I plan a lock-in.

I don't have the whole bait and switch. Like we're going to talk to them about Jesus Christ, their Lord and savior first thing, and then just have the rest of the lock in. It is, hey, building connections, being intentional and teaching the students. That's why we're doing this. Like, Hey, we're doing this so you can bring that friend, start that relationship. And so that they associate church with fun, with safe, with

They feel welcome and feel like they belong. There's something different happening here. And our hope is that continues on.

Nick Clason (15:47.81)
Great, almost a buzzer beater, but not quite. All right, Ellen, you get the final word, final say, anti-lock-in. Go ahead, take it away.

Andrew Jansen (15:50.839)
Almost.

Ellen Partridge (16:00.572)
All right, as fun as lock-ins can be in the memories that are made, the risk of students having bad memories, whether it's a leader who loses their cool, it's another student who says something they wouldn't have said because they're sleep deprived or because they're overtired, to me just doesn't equate to the reward. I am much more on the side of let's do a long.

evening event where maybe we can start at six or seven and parents are picking up at midnight. So we're still getting that opportunity to connect with them, to have those great conversations, to have an opportunity for them to invite their friends. But at the same time, when it hits two, three in the morning, our leaders and our students are home in their beds, getting the sleep and the rest that they need. And hopefully, because they had a great time.

We're gonna be able to see them on Sunday morning and they're able to stay plugged into that larger church community opposed from being just separate from the youth ministry.

Nick Clason (17:05.023)
Nice, nice. Another almost buzzer beater. Well, there you have it, my friends. You have your pro lock-in versus your anti lock-in debate. And so you guys get to be the decision makers. Those of you watching, let us know, comment down below. But without any further ado, we're gonna get out of here. For Andrew and for Ellen, I'm Nick. Thanks for watching everyone. See you next time.

Episode 172: The Cellphone Problem in Youth Groups

Nick Clason — Thu, 23 Oct 2025 05:00:00 -0500

In this episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show, we tackle the cellphone problem in youth groups and reveal a 3-step phone prevention strategy for youth ministry that actually works. Instead of fighting students for their phones, you’ll learn how youth pastors can use a variety of tools to their benefit, including how to turn phones from a distraction to an actual asset. If you’re looking for practical youth ministry tips, phone management strategies, and digital discipleship tools to keep students engaged, this episode is for you.

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🕰️TIMECODES
00:00 Phones in Youth Group
00:23 How Do you Keep Kids off Phones?
00:38 Step #1
01:24 Step #2
02:15 Step #3
04:09 Idea #1
06:09 Fall Social Media Plan
07:22 Idea #2

--------------
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:05
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
In this episode, we're going to talk about my three step phone prevention strategy for youth ministry.

00:00:08:05 - 00:00:17:01
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
But what I also want to show you is how I've turned phones from a distraction to an asset in our youth ministry. And frankly, it's

00:00:17:01 - 00:00:24:08
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
a lot easier than fighting kids to get rid of their phones. Welcome everyone to the Hybrid Ministry Show.

00:00:24:10 - 00:00:29:05
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Well, hey, everybody, welcome to the Hybrid Ministry show. In this episode, we are answering this question.

00:00:29:05 - 00:00:34:17
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
What are the ways that you have been able to keep students from being on phones during lessons and smog?

00:00:34:17 - 00:00:34:26
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Glad you

00:00:34:26 - 00:00:51:02
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
asked. Here's my three step strategy. Step number one is a central parking location. Like you read the comments of this post and just about everyone has either like some charging stations solution a little like hanging basket,

00:00:51:02 - 00:00:54:20
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
place for them to just like, leave their phones in the middle.

00:00:54:23 - 00:01:11:12
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Some different pictures, some different links to different things. We even had at our church at one point in time, we had like cell phone lockers. So this is like lockers with temporary codes where you go, you put your phone in, you create your own code, and then you come back and you get it. At the end of the night, we no longer have them.

00:01:11:12 - 00:01:30:26
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I tell you why in a minute, but, that's an option that was like the most, like next level solution. But basically everybody does it. Like, you just make that the thing. Hey, everyone, put your phones here before we go on into the room for youth group. The other option, let's be honest, like one of the good things that they could be using on their phone is like the Bible app.

00:01:30:26 - 00:01:49:19
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so if you're teaching from the Bible, you're going to give them some sort of like scripture lesson, and they're going to pull their Bibles out on their phone to read it. But then you know how phones work. That's because distraction there, over there, then playing clash clans in a minute, and they're no longer reading the Bible because you stopped reading the Bible in your lesson.

00:01:49:19 - 00:02:15:20
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so, the solution set in two is just very simply like, provide paper Bibles, like if you want kids not on their phones and you want kids in the Bible, provide paper Bibles everywhere, all throughout your space so that there's no excuse for it and or also encourage, and even like potentially bribe and reward students who do bring their paper, Bibles to youth group to engage with Scripture in that way.

00:02:15:23 - 00:02:16:13
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
The third

00:02:16:13 - 00:02:20:04
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
and most effective way, in my opinion, this is more of like in a small group setting.

00:02:20:04 - 00:02:25:04
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So if you're in like a large group, room, this doesn't quite work. But in a small group setting,

00:02:25:04 - 00:02:35:27
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I'm a huge fan of the idea of a thing called a group covenant. Okay. And a group covenant is essentially something that you do at the beginning of a small group term or cycle.

00:02:36:09 - 00:02:55:12
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So you got to think about this. If you have like groups that never break for any sort of rhythm or any sort of reason, then you got to create natural kind of like start points. So, you know, beginning of the school year, maybe like beginning of the calendar year, something like that. Or in certain contexts I've worked in, we've, we had three distinct small groups cycles.

00:02:55:12 - 00:03:15:21
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So we had the fall, the winter and then the summer. And so and then each of those ran for 12 weeks at a time or whatever. And so, during the beginning section of those, you, you have a small group covenant. So you talk about rules and expectations. What's the expectation in this group for treating one another and all those types of things?

00:03:15:21 - 00:03:20:13
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
However, in that the other thing that I recommend,

00:03:20:13 - 00:03:41:09
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
is you ask, what are we going to do about phones? And you let the students decide, and that's more powerful than you having temporary cell phone lockers. That's more powerful than you having paper Bibles. When you let the student say, decide and dictate what's going to happen with phones, that's where the wind is found.

00:03:41:10 - 00:04:07:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so you just simply ask, what are we going to do about phones? They come up with it. And I've always found that students in a group covenant setting actually make stricter rules than rules that you would probably want to make for them. And so let them decide through the avenue of a group covenant, which, by the way, is one of the things I did not see in the comments of the description, however, of that of that question.

00:04:07:11 - 00:04:24:00
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
However, this is the hybrid ministry show, and so I would be remiss to not talk about the ways in which I have actually tried to use phones as an asset. And so in our student ministry, when I started here and this episode links right

00:04:24:00 - 00:04:31:26
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
here, I detailed and discussed how our hybrid ministry strategy has to our growth over the last three years.

00:04:31:29 - 00:04:55:16
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so when I got here, one of the moves we made was we went from rows to tables. That was a major decision and quite frankly, a thing that people had. Some issue with that at first. But now we do tables pretty much consistently. And whenever we take them away, people like you don't like rows anymore. So it's just funny to watch how people kind of change and transform over time.

00:04:55:18 - 00:05:21:08
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
But one of the things that we're leaning into is sidekick. And so we have a poll, a QR based poll, which is one of the features of the new beta sidekick, which, by the way, if you didn't know, you can jump into co-leader or co-leader Premium plus, with code Hybrid Ministry 1001 word. They'll give you 10% off co-leader, which also gives you access to all of the sidekick stuff.

00:05:21:08 - 00:05:41:20
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so one of the benefits and they're still kind of working out some of the kinks, about sidekick and its relationship with the legacy version. But one of the kinks or but one of the best parts about the new version, the beta version of sidekick is, the, the poll voting. And so we use that all the time.

00:05:41:20 - 00:05:59:10
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so poll voting kids get their phone out their skin and they can vote. They can use it for games. They can use it for messages. We even use it sometimes in the pre-roll. I tell you what, I'm going to do that I'm going to link down below our sidekick set up because, it's still not all the way full proof yet.

00:05:59:12 - 00:06:09:06
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so sometimes pro presenter is a better option. And so we actually run both on two different machines, and show you how we set that up. Link down below.

00:06:09:06 - 00:06:16:08
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Hey, quick break. Let me ask you a question. Are you still waking up every day? Is youth pastor scrambling to figure out what you need to post on your social media?

00:06:16:11 - 00:06:45:24
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Blurry dodgeball. Pick a video that your leader sent you that's a little bit pixelated, because iPhone still hasn't updated fully to RCS yet. You see, you don't need that kind of stress this fall. That's why I created this the fall seasonal social media pack for youth pastors. It is three months worth of done for you content done for you, paired with some customization so that you and your leaders and your students are the faces and the personalities on your student ministry Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube shorts feed.

00:06:45:27 - 00:07:05:24
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So here's the thing. You can grab my pack right now over on Patreon. And did you know that monthly hybrid. Here are Patreon members who only pay $4 per month and get a bonus podcast. They get this pack completely for free, so if you do the math for three months worth of social media content, it's only $12 where the pack is 1799.

00:07:05:24 - 00:07:22:24
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Either way, it is a steal for you and it will take away the stress of posting. And you can grab that pack right now and start becoming a master at social media and hybrid ministry. In your youth ministry context, rooting for you as you are crushing it this fall in your student ministry.

00:07:22:24 - 00:07:37:06
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
The other thing that we use is a feature called Digital Notes, which is just a US leaning into the resource and the platform of the YouVersion Bible app, live event section that, YouVersion includes.

00:07:37:06 - 00:07:59:21
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so we set up a YouVersion live events, reading plan. Or it's not even a reading plan necessarily, but a YouVersion live events to follow along with the notes every single week. And like I said, we sit at tables and so we have like a little placard, plastic about this big. It sits in the middle of the table and it says, follow along with this week's digital notes, and it's got a QR code.

00:07:59:28 - 00:08:27:10
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so the QR code stays the same. But then on our QR code service generator, we turn around and we change the link to that every single week. So we change the link to the newest, iteration of the digital notes of the YouVersion, events plan. And so, they can also, you know, navigate into it and find it on the YouVersion live, section of the YouVersion events, and they can follow along.

00:08:27:10 - 00:08:49:16
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
As you know, we're very like, video centric and hybrid ministry centric youth ministry. So we create thumbnails for all of our talks. And so all of our in-room talks also have the thumbnails that go at the top of the YouVersion live events plan. But the, other beautiful thing, frankly, about the YouVersion live events plan is you can link to things external.

00:08:49:16 - 00:09:10:12
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So once they're on there, you got them hooked in and you can help them follow along. You can ask them questions and they're things that they can interact with. They can highlight scripture, they can take notes. But then you can also include external links. So we have a next step like form on our website that we use. And so at the end of every single lesson we say are you ready to take a next step?

00:09:10:12 - 00:09:30:13
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Click here to let us know and it'll navigate them off to our website. And then the final piece in the YouVersion events is we include a Bible reading plan that relates to the topic of sorts. And so any single given week a student on the YouVersion live event plan, they are encouraged or asked at least if they want to take some sort of spiritual next step.

00:09:30:13 - 00:09:37:13
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And they're also fed some sort of Bible reading plan. And so I want to point that out as a way to say we have

00:09:37:13 - 00:09:55:15
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
use phones and sidekick gives us a sliver of that. But our digital notes really opens up a wide avenue of ways that we can help students take next steps and be more intentional and meaningful during the lesson, so that they're using their phones to follow along with what's going on.

00:09:55:15 - 00:10:15:00
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Now, I told you I made a calculated risk with tables. I also want to let you know that phones is another calculated risk. And in fact, like one of the one of the comments on this post of the question that I'm reading said, man, just let kids have their phones, stop making it a fight. And like I tend to actually agree with that guy, but I will let you know.

00:10:15:00 - 00:10:37:01
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like phones are still a fight and they are still a distraction. Just last week, two nights ago in our youth group, one of our leaders, one of our table leaders. So we have students that are in, senior high that are leading groups in discussions. He was playing a game on his phone, and one of our staff one up, and they said, our table leaders are allowed to play games on their phones.

00:10:37:01 - 00:10:54:01
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And he knew the answer to that was like, no. And so he had to go to that kid and say, hey, put your phone down. So if that's coming from one of our leaders, it's there's that much even trickle down to the rest of students. So, well, hear me say, what we do is not foolproof, all right. But it's a calculated risk that I'm willing to take.

00:10:54:01 - 00:11:12:15
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And one that when a student brings their friend for the first time and a mom and dad. Imagine this. Your parent, you send your kid to imagine you send your kid to a completely different denomination or different religion to go with one of their friends, and then they don't have their phones for an hour. How would you feel if you couldn't get in contact with them?

00:11:12:17 - 00:11:32:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
You know, we're the millennial generation of of parents. We want to have contact with our children, especially if we've paid for and given them a phone. And so we try not to make that an obstacle for people to be able to come into our ministry. But again, it's a calculated risk and one that we are, used to, fighting and using.

00:11:32:11 - 00:11:48:02
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So let us know down below in the comments what you do in your youth ministry as it pertains to cell phones. And go ahead and subscribe what you see right here on the screen and check out the next question. Video. There's also here on screen. But until next time. And as always my friends, don't forget stay happy.

Episode 152: This Social Media Post is dead in 2025 - What to do instead

Nick Clason — Thu, 05 Jun 2025 05:00:00 -0500

The “done-for-you” social media strategy is dead in 2025—and it might be quietly hurting your ministry. HubSpot’s latest report says real impact comes from micro-connections over time, not cookie-cutter content. If you want to win on social this summer without burning out, show up with authenticity, stay consistent, and use tools that amplify your voice—not replace it.

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--------------
🕰️TIMECODES
00:00 Tomatoes & Youth Ministry?
00:46 Social Fluency & Micro-Connections
01:50 Social Fluency Real Time Example
02:14 Do All "Done For You" Products Suck?
03:06 Social Media for Busy Youth Pastors in 2025
05:27 Your Custom Summer Social Media Plan
07:00 Micro Connections - Consistency over Perfection
07:58 Social Media without the Burnout

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TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:24:24
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Buying a tomato is now an existential crisis. I was reading the recent Global Social Media Trends report put out by HubSpot. Link to that down below in the show notes if you're interested. What does that have to do with you and your youth ministry? It actually has a lot to do with you in your youth ministry, because today we're going to talk about social fluency.

00:00:24:25 - 00:00:50:01
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
What is it? Why does it matter now more than ever, and how churches who are ignoring this are being left behind? Plus, I'm going to show you how you can win at that social media fluency through social media this summer. Even when you're slammed with VBS camps and mission trips. Welcome to the Hybrid Ministry. Why is buying a tomato an existential crisis?

00:00:50:01 - 00:01:14:07
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Because there are so many decisions to make. It used to be easy. You wanted a tomato. You walk to the grocery store, you bought the tomato. Now there are so many options. Amy Marino from HubSpot nailed it. She says social fluency is what drives results. This isn't about having the slickest reals or trendiest memes. It's about mastering a thing called micro Connections.

00:01:14:07 - 00:01:35:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
We're going to dive into that a little bit later, but HubSpot says that every buyer's journey is made up of small connections over time. And I get it. You're thinking like, well, I'm not selling anything. And in a way, absolutely you are not. But in a way, absolutely you are. That does apply directly to you, your church and your ministry.

00:01:35:11 - 00:02:02:18
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so students and parents aren't checking your Instagram once and then deciding whether or not they're coming to your church or not. It's made up. This social fluency thing is made up of touch points and consistency and relevance. Okay, like for example, let's break this down. A parent sees your Bible verse post on your Instagram. Then later on that week they see your Wednesday night youth ministry recap and then a post from their kid.

00:02:02:18 - 00:02:32:23
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
You see, that's trust built one scroll, one block at a time. That's what social fluency is. And so whether you're in the market for a tomato or a youth ministry, here's the kicker. These church ministry platforms and products that are, branded as done for you, they suck. Is that harsh? Well, maybe, but here's why. And I'm going to be honest with you, because I believe that it removes you, the youth pastor, from the equation.

00:02:32:26 - 00:02:58:21
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
You are the connection. You are the relationship. And so when every single post looks the same, when every single post looks generic, when every post is downloaded in such a way that any youth ministry in the country in the world can use that product. It doesn't pack the punch that you want it to do. It doesn't build social fluency and you miss the nuances of your community.

00:02:58:22 - 00:03:21:05
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
You know, I talked about it several episodes ago. I said, stop posting video announcements if you're here on YouTube, it's linked up at the top of the screen. But social is no longer about those slick ads. It's about being present and authentic, and it's about being human. But wait, you're busy. You have VBS this week. You have summer camp the week after that, and then you're taking a mission trip in the middle of the summer.

00:03:21:08 - 00:03:47:21
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I get it. Trust me, I'm a 15 year youth ministry veteran. Also trying to lean in to social media and hybrid ministry. In addition to that, on the weekly basis, you're leading games, you're preaching, you're planning summer trips. That is why I have built for you and for all youth ministries this summer. Social media kit. It is a 50% done for you like I was talking about, but it also has custom for you.

00:03:47:21 - 00:04:16:19
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So in the done for you category I have Bible verse reels. I have emoji phrase guesses, I have spiritual practice videos and I have what to do when you're facing blank carousel Bible based posts. I also have a full posting strategy that I recommend, and if you don't want to follow mine, then you can build your own. But then beyond that, then this is where I really believe it is the next level sort of pack because it's 50% custom done for you.

00:04:16:20 - 00:04:35:25
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So I have devotionals where I'm telling you what to do, how to how to recap your most recent sermon. But if you don't have any ideas, I just give you a devotional script, read it, memorize it, go direct to camera and you are off to the races. I have interview style man on the street style questions with included graphics.

00:04:35:25 - 00:04:54:05
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So all you have to do is capture, put together and then overlay with the graphics that I have provided. I have transition hook style videos and I've included the first half of the videos. I've found them for you. All you have to do is shoot yourself, your leaders, your students, your pastor, whoever at the end of the video and invite someone to youth or to whatever event.

00:04:54:05 - 00:05:19:23
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And then finally I have Bible trivia where I have included the graphics as well as the questions for you. So again, this is all very much the grunt work is handled the templates, the graphics, the prompts, and you can quickly swap yourself in to become the hero on your social media, to build that social fluency so that it'll be your voice, that it will be your photos, and that it'll be your vibe.

00:05:19:23 - 00:05:48:10
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
You and your students and your leaders are still what is present on your social media content. Hey, youth pastors, church communications people, would you like to have your social media dialed in for the next 90 days? Especially with summer on the horizon? Listen, that's exactly what you're going to get with the summer and seasonal social media pack. It's a new product that I'm rolling exclusively on my Patreon.

00:05:48:16 - 00:06:09:04
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
It's three months of custom strategic content for less than $20, and this is built specifically for busy youth pastors like you who want to stay active on TikTok and Instagram Reels and YouTube without spending ten plus hours a month figuring out what to post. So here's what you're going to get. You're going to get 50% of the content completely done.

00:06:09:04 - 00:06:37:19
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
It's turnkey plug and play, post it and go. The other 50% is custom content for you to still shoot. However, I'm going to provide scripts and templates and frameworks so that your face, your students and your volunteers are who are seen on your social media feeds. This is not just pretty graphics. This is a full blown social media strategy for the next three months, designed by someone who knows both youth ministry and digital ministry.

00:06:37:20 - 00:07:01:24
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so if you're tired of scrambling for the cost of less than a pizza and frankly, more nourishing than a pizza, grab the seasonal social media pack today. Oh, and I almost forgot. Patreon members get it for free. You know this HubSpot, trends article? There's a quote that says A buyer's purchasing experience is made up of small connections over time.

00:07:01:24 - 00:07:23:29
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And quite frankly, that's the same thing that is true with students. A student's discipleship journey is built on these things called micro connections. And so in person that's youth group. That's high five, that's fist bumps, that's showing up at their football games. But we now have the advantage in a hybrid world to lean into the digital side of those relationships as well.

00:07:24:05 - 00:08:01:07
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Social posts, DMs, reels, stories. They're all digital handshakes. And so I encourage youth pastors to show up consistently, not perfectly, but just regularly and show up. And the way that you show up is by putting your voice, your face, and your ministry out there. And that is a way to build that social fluency. But with the summer social media pack, you're also not going to be burning out while you're still making those digital and in-person micro connections, because I've done it all for you.

00:08:01:07 - 00:08:25:28
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
The fact of the matter is, social media in 2025, it's not optional. It's spiritual hospitality. And the thing is, the churches who get this social fluency, they will reach more people. They will reach more deeply. So do you want to crush it this summer without cloning somebody else's completely done for you scripted strategies and grab down below link in the description.

00:08:25:29 - 00:08:35:18
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
The Summer kit, and you can take your social media to the next level. Well, don't forget my friends and as always to stay hybrid.

Episode 141: How I Plan Events with Kaylen Adams

Nick Clason — Thu, 20 Mar 2025 05:00:00 -0500

This episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show kicks off the "How I..." playlist with a deep dive into event planning with guest Kaylen Adams, an expert in coordination and logistics. Kaylen shares her step-by-step approach to organizing youth ministry events, covering everything from volunteer recruitment and communication to detailed schedules and contingency planning. Whether you're a youth pastor who struggles with organization or looking to refine your event strategy, this conversation is packed with practical insights to help you run seamless, high-impact events.

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SHOW NOTES
Shownotes & Transcripts
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/141

CONNECT WITH KAYLEN ON SOCIAL
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🕰️TIMECODES
00:00 How I Plan Events like a Pro!
01:10 Kaylen, who are you?
05:06 What Lanes did you own?
07:03 How can you help someone think?
08:07 How did you communicate?
11:54 How did you determine call times?
16:30 How do you recruit for an event?
20:05 How many jobs do you give a leader?
21:24 How do you calculate for food?
24:21 What Else?
26:28 What if my church doesn't do all that?
28:34 Keep People's Personalities in Mind

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TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:00
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
For what is up everybody? Today I am going to introduce you and have you in for a treat, because I am going to be interviewing one of my friends and coworkers, Kaylen Adams, who's fantastic at event planning. This is going to be the start of a new little playlist series on my podcast, and here on YouTube, where I am going to introduce you to some of the people that I know who do things the best in youth ministry and particular lanes.

00:00:25:00 - 00:00:46:05
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And Kaylen is the queen of event coordination and event management. Not only is she like, really fun and have a really good mind, but she is fantastic at getting volunteers, recruiting them. And when a volunteer comes in just feeling like they know exactly what to do. And you will. If you implement these things, you will look like a rock star.

00:00:46:09 - 00:01:04:05
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So if you're a typical youth worker who's not very organized, this episode is for you because it will help you and if you think that all hope is lost on you, then this is a great, podcast to send to a volunteer or a high level admin who might step in and help you with some of the logistical things, but you are in for a treat regardless.

00:01:04:10 - 00:01:31:06
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
With my interview today with my friend and coworker Kaylen Adams. What's up everyone? Here we are. I am with Kaylen Adams. Which yes, you don't even find that on your name on here because that's how that's how new this is. So it is formerly known as Maltais, not hyphenated. Straight up Adams. Which means you just got married and,

00:01:31:08 - 00:01:52:02
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And you might not know Kaylen, but I know Kaylen. I worked with Kaylen. Worked in the past tense. We are still on staff together, but she has switched departments, so now she's in the kids department. And the reason I ask Kaylen on here is, what was it last weekend? Two weekends ago, we had our high school weekend.

00:01:52:02 - 00:02:14:01
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And you still worked with me then, and, oh, my gosh, Kaylen crushed it. Like, you guys don't have any idea. And as she was, like, literally crushing every, like, logistical and administrative detail of the weekend, in the back of my mind, I was like, we got to get Kaylen on so I can ask her, how do you plan for these big events?

00:02:14:01 - 00:02:38:10
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So why don't you give us just kind of a quick overview? Kaylen, first of all, like a 20 or 30 second like synopsis of who you are, how we ended up working together. But then, like, what did you oversee, at these events? Like what particular? Like lanes and areas and avenues. And then I just think what you did is such a helpful tool to many of the youth passers that I've ever seen or worked with. And so I just think this would be helpful to get out, you know, to people. Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:38:10 - 00:03:02:13
Kaylen Adams
So we've started working together because I, I went to college at the University of Wyoming and I got a degree in human resources management and entrepreneurship with minors in hospitality anthropology. There you go. So so that was. Yeah. Yeah. And so I did that.

00:03:02:13 - 00:03:29:13
Kaylen Adams
Fell in love with ministry there. And then around like my senior year, I learned the opportunity to do a residency in Texas, which I hate sweating. So my family was like, I was like, I think because I love Jesus, I don't know. So I applied and I ended up getting hired in January. And so after I graduated, I moved to Texas, and I did a residency at Cross Creek Church and guest services.

00:03:29:15 - 00:03:50:22
Kaylen Adams
But I love that, like ministerial aspect. And I still was kind of doing some of more of that support ministry with it. So needed and very, very special. Big shout out to everybody in support ministries. And so that's when I transitioned into students and I kind of brought a lot of my guest services and undergrad knowledge, which infuse that into what I was doing.

00:03:50:22 - 00:04:08:00
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And students. Yeah. So then like for the first little bit, I remember you're like, I don't really know exactly what you guys want me to do. And we were like, just keep doing like, I mean, like, you guys don't understand. Like, Kaylen was just she just knew what to do. Like, even if she didn't know what to do, she pretend like she knew what to do.

00:04:08:00 - 00:04:30:06
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And it seemed like she's known what she she's doing. But it was this last high school weekend where, like, you were pulling out, like, spreadsheets and folders and instructions and, even, like, I remember distinctly I was talking with you about our t shirt order number, and, like, our student registration was, like, lower than anticipated. And you were like, no, we're going to need this many t shirts.

00:04:30:06 - 00:04:50:20
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And I was like, why? And you're like, because of all of our volunteers. And I was like, do you really like, do you really think that? And your confidence, you're like, absolutely. And you were right, by the way. So what like lanes did you let's talk about specifically our high school weekend, which for those of you who don't know the context, it's like a D now without the spending the night element.

00:04:50:22 - 00:05:10:02
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So it's like two days on campus. Yeah. Like Friday night, Saturday until like 3:00. And so it's probably like our second biggest event next to, like, a thing like summer camp, right? So yeah, in that event, what particularly did you own, like, what were those areas? And I just want to ask you kind of pepper you questions.

00:05:10:02 - 00:05:33:02
Kaylen Adams
Yeah. In that in those arenas. Well so this was we originally had one winter we to middle school and high school. Was it split into middle school night high school. Well for middle school night Darren, the student pastor at Rush Creek pitched and I met my boss, so he. Yeah. So he did a lot of the the directional things for that division.

00:05:33:02 - 00:05:56:21
Kaylen Adams
And then programing. And I took everything else and like, did the logistics of the event planned it all. So by the time high school weekend came around, because I wasn't middle school night, so I didn't play a part at all, which is relevant because when we played high school night, we did a lot of the same stuff. We just like copy and paste a lot of the stuff that worked and made it a little more, for high school and that middle school.

00:05:56:23 - 00:06:20:20
Kaylen Adams
Oh yeah. And then we had known, like, what worked and what didn't. So we're check in by the time we got to high school again. Yeah, that's good. But yeah, by the time we got there, Nick you did programing. So like everything that you were sitting in a session and watching and experiencing. Nick was all in of planning and talking to the people, like worship people and yeah, yeah, I did everything outside of that.

00:06:20:22 - 00:06:44:20
Kaylen Adams
So and how we move through the timelines, you know, when were kids eating, where were they going to be, what activities were they going to be doing. And then we had food making sure we had enough food, making sure. Yeah, we had t shirts. And there they were out and that, you know, we gave away a little like pin to all of our students, like, you made sure that that was where it needed to get and left, you know, passing out our note sheets and pens.

00:06:44:20 - 00:07:08:09
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And, I mean, you just you thought of like, every detail. So, like, I know your background helps you with that, but like, imagine you're talking to someone who's not as organized as you like. So you come by that naturally, which is what was just like a marvel to behold. But like what? What would you tell someone? Or how would you encourage someone to think if they're like planning something like that?

00:07:08:09 - 00:07:29:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like what? What's the way that you help us get inside your brain for some of the logistics?

Kaylen Adams
Well, when you're planning an event, yes, for a job, for ministry, ever. You write down all of your ideas like, no one is like, I'm just taking this all right here. I will accept it later. It's going to be there like you always write it down.

00:07:29:11 - 00:07:54:20
Kaylen Adams
You make it through for you. And I just thought, you know, would probably be really helpful for a volunteers to see that map. Like, I don't know why I would keep it from them. They should know, like how we got from point A to point B, because by the time we're at point B and we're doing the thing, they deeply understand what they're doing and not only do what I'm telling them to do, they can actually take initiative and do the things that I missed.

00:07:54:22 - 00:08:13:05
Kaylen Adams
Yeah. And so that's a huge part of it is just like, if I were a volunteer, what would I want to know? So I could do my job? Well, I feel good about it. Yeah. So then how how did you go about communicating? Like, did you have a meeting? Did you send them a text? Did you send them an email?

00:08:13:05 - 00:08:31:03
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like what? Because that's probably, I would imagine, a lot of stuff. And I think again, most youth pastors are like, I don't either have the time or be want to overwhelm my volunteers, or maybe see just another reason I didn't actually write it down. It is all in my head. So, I mean, I would say probably for all of us.

00:08:31:06 - 00:08:55:12
Kaylen Adams
Step one is get it out of your head onto paper somehow. And then two, how did you communicate it? Yeah. So I communicated a couple different ways. So the only time that I was texting volunteers instructions or anything was a, when I was recruiting them. Okay. I never sent them like, all the information they needed individually because I needed them all to be kind of in one part.

00:08:55:12 - 00:09:16:24
Kaylen Adams
So I knew who was getting one information and it always the same. Yeah. If I ever was giving instructions, it was in a group chat or a group of people that had a specialized role. Those came last minute. They weren't actually accounted for. Next time we did an event, I probably would account for them in advance. So I'm not texting information because for the smaller like you're saying, the.

00:09:17:01 - 00:09:51:02
Kaylen Adams
Yeah, the smaller, more specialized groups groupings of people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I like to create an escape room. We had game masters and we didn't know about that until like pretty close to the event. I probably would have included them into all the mass event communication before that time. Got it as okay. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So and then and then putting together all this information, I'm kind of stockpiling it in a folder called Volunteer Prep, and I'm organizing it by like, this document, they need to know this document.

00:09:51:02 - 00:10:11:16
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
They need to know if they don't really need to know that, I'll pull it back. What are those documents? Can you give us just a few examples, like pull back the curtain a little bit?

Kaylen Adams
Yeah, yeah. So I'll make a volunteer schedule that's like five position. And then I sang people to that position per day. So it's not by time blocks, it's by day and what they're doing okay.

00:10:11:16 - 00:10:28:21
Kaylen Adams
And then I have a document a volunteer job description. They need to know what they're doing, why they're doing how they do it. Yeah. And then I do a document. If we're doing anything outside or in a weird space, I'll do an aerial map and I'll make, like, different stations and positions of where they're going to be.

00:10:28:23 - 00:10:51:09
Kaylen Adams
I'll give them a service order so they can see just how we do, how the whole day is going to go through. They even see like how different session parts are going to work, like what sounds work. It's going to do all the stuff because they help with transitions, like really help because it's easier to be like, hey, after they do a million little miracles, I need you to come out here rather than at 737.

00:10:51:09 - 00:11:11:20
Kaylen Adams
I need you to. Yeah. The more like more like, big landmarks on a map. Yeah. Once you get this song, then this is your cue to come out and help set up for lunch, like, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. That's why the service order is so important. And for them to see what's in Planning Center is for that.

00:11:11:20 - 00:11:34:07
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
We updated everything for the whole event kind of revolves around that. And you're doing the same for your volunteers. And so because then I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, you're able to be like, hey, if you're in charge of lunch, like, these are your three areas or meals, I guess, like these are your three. So like Friday night dinner, Saturday morning breakfast and, you know, Saturday lunch.

00:11:34:07 - 00:11:56:08
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like at this time you need to be here for this. Because if we say lunch is at 12, let's say I'm imagining you're having your volunteer get there at 11:15 or 11:30 or something like that. So how do you real quick answer this question for me. How do you determine, what time to to call for them? Like, yeah.

00:11:56:10 - 00:12:18:11
Kaylen Adams
So when it comes to like food stuff because you're dealing with catering and vendors usually like I wouldn't have that start. So we had lunch at like, what was it this year? 12 I think it started and I don't remember the exact time. I just know we had it and it was ready. And that's why you're here. We had food dropped off at like 1115.

00:12:18:16 - 00:12:41:10
Kaylen Adams
Okay. So plenty of time. And most of that was not because I was worried about my volunteers because they knew what to do. And we're not in like the biggest space ever is to account for vendors being late or not knowing where to park and, stuff. Yeah. When it comes to other transitions, they're a lot tighter windows and they're a lot quicker usually it was like the song before something started.

00:12:41:10 - 00:13:04:10
Kaylen Adams
I would send them to go do something, but again, that's also because their space isn't really big and any materials they needed or resources. I set out in a central location, a table in the main space. We all were operating out of the auditorium, and I labeled everything with all the different times that it's going to be needed, and even put under, like during this song, you should take that, this place.

00:13:04:10 - 00:13:25:17
Kaylen Adams
So my volunteers knew to flock to that table when transition times are happening. Yeah, that was so good. So then are you. So you're just labeling those like yeah, color you label like for anything. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You label like crazy. If you think like oh that'd be really obvious for someone to know it's now you should label.

00:13:25:23 - 00:13:45:10
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Because again, your brain versus reality. Right. Like it makes sense in your brain, our brain as we're planning the events. But it might not make sense to volunteer. Yeah, because they're just dropping in. Right. You know. Yeah. After work. Right. They've been at work all day and their mind is in a million other places.

00:13:45:10 - 00:14:06:24
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so like, they're, you know, giving up their time and they're willing and they're helpful and all those things. But like I like that. I like what you're saying, like, almost, almost dummy proof it. Right? Not that they're dumb, but, like, make it so simple. Okay. Yeah. Do it. Yeah. Well, my volunteers, they do best when they're confident.

00:14:06:24 - 00:14:24:06
Kaylen Adams
When they're confident, they are empowered to take initiative, make decisions, do something really well when they're not confident in whether or not they're in the right place, holding the right thing, putting it where it should be. Then you have a lot of lag and you have a lot of like question. And that's when things start to like frame fall apart.

00:14:24:09 - 00:14:59:24
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. So your job as an event coordinator is just to how can I give my volunteers the most confidence they need in this decision. That's good. Okay. So then anything else on what you tell volunteers? I want to maybe go a different direction if you feel like you've kind of got everything in that lack thing is leading up to the event, you want to send out the longest email of your life, and then is where all of the equipment I talked about keeping in that volunteer folder and you go through, you give an overview and you kind of describe how the event's going, and they need to read those attachments.

00:14:59:24 - 00:15:26:05
Kaylen Adams
I sent it all beforehand because that's our big meeting, and they can refer back to you and have in writing. And then by the time we are at the event, like 30 minutes an hour before the start, that meeting is a refresher or a question. That's not the entire meeting. Yeah, yeah. And then the other thing you did, which I thought was brilliant, was you, taped all those attachments to a wall of one of our leader workrooms.

00:15:26:07 - 00:15:47:10
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So, yeah, if they didn't want to, you know, fight with their email to find it again, they could just go reference quickly off a printed copy. So again, you don't like you think about your dummy proofing it like, yes, you communicated it in the email. And this is one of the concepts I talk about in communication a lot is like, we live in like a Netflix culture, so people live it with like an on demand mindset.

00:15:47:10 - 00:16:05:03
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so you sent it on like a Thursday at 3:30 p.m., but like, they were in the middle of like a business meeting. And so it wasn't in their mind then, but it will be in their mind when they show up on Friday at six. But like they've gotten 27 more emails since then and so. Oh yeah, where is that?

00:16:05:03 - 00:16:24:21
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And I think it's brilliant to put it somewhere just quick and accessible and maybe even another hack that we didn't even do or think about, but like maybe even having like a static like landing page or like QR code that they could like scan and pull open, like in a, just a tab in their safari. And then that gives them access to everything, you know, that they need.

00:16:24:23 - 00:16:58:15
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
But yeah, I think that was that was so smart. So then how do you go about, like, help us get in your brain because, you know, you had a couple volunteers there that I was like, oh, like, I wouldn't have thought that they would be here. Not because they did, like a bad job or they're just they weren't like as maybe like involved or like, maybe they're only serving like once a month or once every other, week, like in our student ministry and like, you had the, like, in charge of, like, food or like certain like, you know, snack type areas, like, how did you go through and think, who am

00:16:58:15 - 00:17:16:22
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I going to recruit? Because I thought that was one of the other really special things was like, you asked a very particular or like, dedicated ask for like just very, again, very specific volunteers. You didn't I didn't feel like you did like an all call, though. You maybe you did to kind of pick up anyone who might be interested.

00:17:16:22 - 00:17:39:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
But then I think you went particularly after, like certain names or certain individuals. How did you how did you like, think about them to, to ask them and like what goes into you? You know, determining this person would be good for that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you definitely do an all call because, well, we are desperate for people to help.

00:17:39:13 - 00:18:06:02
Kaylen Adams
We're not gonna act like or not, but, honestly, I just kind of go with a philosophy of I'll never say no for somebody like, you know, I think sometimes we do that even if we say that we're not like, well, they only serve on Sundays and they're very particular about their job. And I'm like, yes. But they also probably like high school is I don't know, maybe the chances are, and so I just kind of like we always have conversations for like, oh, that person would be like, so good at this.

00:18:06:02 - 00:18:27:03
Kaylen Adams
Or if only they do it. And I usually take that person and then ask, yeah, like I make a list of all. Yeah. As I am planning events and I just keep people's personalities in mind like I, we see them work all Sunday and we see them work Wednesday. And you kind of see like what things kind of light them up and what things they're like, oh can I do anything else but that.

00:18:27:07 - 00:18:42:18
Kaylen Adams
Yeah. And so I just kind of catalog that and that way. And I do kind of mentally. But it wouldn't hurt to like make a list of people like I love reaching out to this person for this. This is this. And I've noticed that they've done events. We have volunteers that really get fired up for events like that.

00:18:42:18 - 00:19:02:24
Kaylen Adams
Just being a part of a big beast of a programing thing, like kind of lights them up and exciting. And so I have people that I regularly reach out with, like Kyra Allen Love. She's one of our checking people. I remember when I came in, she was on like some sort of kind of understanding that she was only going to volunteer a couple times because she had some things going on.

00:19:02:24 - 00:19:26:20
Kaylen Adams
And I just remember, like, she was so stoked to do this back to school bash experience. That was like a Wednesday night special because, like, I definitely would love to do events and she's been my event checking person every single time I day. Yeah, yeah that's good. Yeah. She loves it. So you have like a you're very in tune to to them like just ongoing right.

00:19:26:20 - 00:19:44:20
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like you're keeping an eye as you're doing your job. And so that makes it easier obviously. Then when you go to to think and yeah I like that it is not creepy but it is. No. Yeah. But I think that's part of the that again I when I saw some of those people that was like interesting but also awesome and like that was all kudos to you right.

00:19:44:20 - 00:20:01:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like I'll kudos you because like I wouldn't have thought to ask that person. Like I would have thrown a link in our leader group chat. Hey, you know, want to volunteer? They did it. And now I'm desperate, you know? And, so yeah, I was we were more than fully staffed, you know, for. Yeah. And so that was the other thing.

00:20:01:11 - 00:20:20:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like how, like how many jobs do you try to give a leader? Like how many are you trying to, like, let people do double duty? Or like, hey, you're in charge of like, food and like, that's your job the whole weekend. Like, how do you make those decisions?

Kaylen Adams
Yeah, some of our jobs, like, they feel very crucial and important because they are.

00:20:20:13 - 00:20:40:05
Kaylen Adams
But they're not crucial. Important in that they happen the entire time of the program. Like right there. Yeah. There are a window a very important window. But then and. Yeah, and you have to remember, when you're dealing with these volunteers, they're adults with full time jobs are like at the leaders, if they're they're at your event, they are high capacity.

00:20:40:07 - 00:21:01:24
Kaylen Adams
They don't do well, bored or sitting and doing nothing. They want to do something. And if they're doing something that morale is high and they'll probably do another event because they're like, that was awesome though. So yeah, it's good. Yeah. So I assign generally like 2 or 3 roles throughout the service order to people. So they're like constantly transitioning and moving to do so.

00:21:02:01 - 00:21:22:02
Kaylen Adams
Yeah. And that comes back to your like schedule your map. And you're like you're thinking that ahead. Like okay. Do they after this window closes they can go to this, but then they maybe can't do this next thing because they're going to be busy doing that. Like, again, that's the next level stuff, Kaylen, that you're like, you're very good at.

00:21:22:02 - 00:21:44:02
Kaylen Adams
So, okay, so then, let's talk a little bit about like, food. Okay. How do you determine, how much to order? Like, is it just as simple as, like, as many as there are registered. How do you account for, like, walk ins at an event like this where we do leave registration open all the way up until you know, it starts.

00:21:44:02 - 00:22:05:20
Kaylen Adams
And so theoretically, a kid could walk in and do you have enough food for them, like how do you how do you kind of try and manage that or think about that? Yeah. It all it does depend on how, big of an invite event. This is like I think high school weekend was an invite like, but we didn't like push super hard and say like my friends going for it.

00:22:05:22 - 00:22:25:12
Kaylen Adams
Yeah, yeah. So always keep that in mind. Yes. You keep the registration number, but you also want to account for all of the adults in the building. Don't forget yourself or your staff then volunteers. And if you're providing food for tech and worship or if they're doing their own thing so that all is in that number. Yeah.

00:22:25:14 - 00:22:49:00
Kaylen Adams
But registration, I just kind of. I don't want to have too big of a margin because then we're spending a lot of money on food. But things that I can give out is like door prizes, like pizza. I'm a little more willing to have extra of because we could have done or do to make their night, but like, same with, you know, because no one wants like a cold, soggy sandwich by the end of like 12 of them.

00:22:49:06 - 00:23:10:08
Kaylen Adams
Yeah. So I would be a little bit more tight on food like that. And also keep in mind that everyone's like, kids are so hungry they're going to eat three slices of pizza. You keep in mind the girls, because girls don't eat as much food as boys. And, like, I definitely like they're just there's camping retreat food.

00:23:10:08 - 00:23:32:14
Kaylen Adams
That is great because you're hungry, but it's not a lot of kids. First choice. Really like one of it. Yeah, they'll like maybe one and a half will split with a friend. Yeah. So just keep that in mind. Like the ratio is not as monstrous as you think. Yeah, I think the ratio I've tried to use for pizza is, two and a half times your number.

00:23:32:14 - 00:23:51:06
Kaylen Adams
So, like, think you're big number of all the people including tech and worship and check in and staff and everyone. And then you multiply it by two and a half. That'll give you the total number of slices that you need. And then you can divide that by eight, because that's how many slices of pizza are in, your pizza box.

00:23:51:06 - 00:24:06:02
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And then that'll give you a number with a decimal. And you can either round up around whatever you, you know, feel. And what's really nice is like, you know, you do the random picker thing, like, with their name. And for those who don't know, you picked the names and then they just get a random prize for doing nothing.

00:24:06:03 - 00:24:22:03
Kaylen Adams
Yeah, that great. Pick that food leftovers too, because you don't want to bank on having extra if you're just kind of guessing because kids might be really hungry and you don't have it, and then you just lost a prize for a game. Yeah. So you want that to be like a random moment that if they don't get it, they have no idea.

00:24:22:05 - 00:24:48:02
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. All right. Let's see what else. What else do you what else do you think about for an event that I'm not thinking even to, like, ask you? Listen, you have to know if your church has any sort of, like, admin team, administrative volunteers that help put these things together with your operations at all, like your facilities and your finance people or whatever it might be.

00:24:48:04 - 00:25:09:00
Kaylen Adams
You need to meet with them, like way ahead of time. So I see way ahead of time. Yeah. So I start meeting with people. We've been cutting it kind of close and cutting it close to meeting two months in advance. Okay. So you need to some of us that might be like, oh, that's when I start thinking about it.

00:25:09:02 - 00:25:34:17
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Yeah. No. Especially if it's like a really big event. Which high school weekend is a really big event for us? We need to start planning that month in advance. And depending on, like, the capacity of your team, that could fluctuate a little bit. Like if it's just you and one other person, I would say probably start looking at that at like six months and having if you have a couple other people who can share that, you could maybe do a little bit less.

00:25:34:19 - 00:25:59:21
Kaylen Adams
But you definitely need to start meeting with administrative people on your church staff that are handling this, because their personalities are a lot different than yours. As a ministry person, you're used to pivoting and being creative and all the things and pulling it off at the last minute. Yeah, they are not. They love systems and processes and if you break their system, it's going to be really, really hard to get them to like be on the same wavelength with you.

00:26:00:01 - 00:26:22:11
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Good. Yeah, yeah. And like in our particular, you know, setting, we have like our facilities people like they set everything up for us, which is fantastic. But to your point, like, only if we're on top of it, if we slide in in the ninth hour and we're like, this is what we want, they're like, yo, we're already on to like, stuff for like later, next weekend.

00:26:22:11 - 00:26:43:23
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Like we've already, you know, planned our day. So, you know, to her point like, and whether you know so like, here's the thing I do know if like you're listening, you're like, okay, I don't work at a church anywhere near that. Has any of that. Like, I am the operations, I am the admin. And what I would say is, lean into your volunteers if you're like that sounds fantastic.

00:26:43:23 - 00:27:15:12
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
I would love that. But I don't have anyone that works for me with me on my team. Anything like that like that doesn't mean you can't do it, and it doesn't mean you still can't delegate and dish out. You just may have to do that more of like a volunteer capacity. So find a mother. Or like someone who, like, works in like an administrative like role that has a little bit of, bandwidth and margin and like, ask them, you know, like, I'm sure if I'm saying that many of you right now, as you're listening, you're like, oh, yeah, I could probably ask so and so, like that person's come into your mind like, let

00:27:15:12 - 00:27:33:00
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
that person be your Kaylen for your event. And like, yes, we had the luxury of like Kaylen being on our team payroll, but like, you know, it doesn't it doesn't, they don't have to be right. And like. Yeah, setting up you can. I mean, we employ teenagers, like, students to, like, come early and do stuff like that.

00:27:33:00 - 00:28:00:12
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And, you know, we call them what we call them. Simps. Yet SMPs student is tone texting is for like, student oh my gosh. Okay. Do not disturb do that anyway. Ministry student minutes protege. Protege. Yeah yeah yeah. Protege. Yeah. And so anyway, we employ them, they, get free camp, and stuff like that, but they come early in, like, sets, set things up.

00:28:00:12 - 00:28:25:02
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
So, like, they can be like facilities team. So again, as we're saying it like, don't don't be like I had never be there like you for sure can like employ volunteers and people that'll do it for free. And they like to to Kaylen's point. Yeah they do. That might not be your gifting. And you're like, no one would ever want to run administrative or set chairs up like some people genuinely do.

00:28:25:02 - 00:28:47:19
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so don't rob other people of being able to serve your youth ministry, God's kingdom, whatever. By not asking them. What else Kaylen. Anything else or do we hit it all. I just would in mind people's personalities. You're going to have people who, when they're planning events, they just run just like that's just their personality and that's how they work best.

00:28:47:19 - 00:29:06:12
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so they're going to ask a lot of questions and they're going to want to meet with you last minute and their vibe might kind of like make you kind of thrown off because you're like, I thought we had all this plan. Why do you need to meet and double check? They've probably done a great job. They just want to make sure that they've done everything you need to help you.

00:29:06:14 - 00:29:25:20
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so if you have someone in your life who's like that, just remember, like, just have your questions kind of written out of what you know, that they text and have those input ready for them. And that's going to help those meetings a lot quicker. I had a at one churches I worked at, I had a volunteer like that.

00:29:25:20 - 00:29:47:23
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Her name was Sarah. And the way that I would think logistically when I was planning things because, like, I was a one man band, we had a church secretary 20 hours a week that served the entire church. Right. So, like, I could get some stuff, you know, to for her to do for the youth ministry, but not like she wasn't like, there to, like at my beck and call for everything.

00:29:48:00 - 00:30:12:16
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And so as I was like dishing things off to volunteers and whatnot, like my, my filter in my head was always like, what would Sarah want to know? Right? It's I think that's a good like a good way to think about it is like, think about the volunteer who has the most questions for you. And then ask the question like, would the amount of information that I'm sending up, would it satisfy that person?

00:30:12:16 - 00:30:37:12
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
And if yes, then you're on the right track. If not, then you probably need more detail. So yeah. Yeah, I love that. Cool. Kaylen, is that it? Do we hit it? Yeah. There's our all events for future and for always going to be planned, do you think? I think I think so well, yeah probably. All right. Well hey, this was how I plan events with Kaylen.

00:30:37:14 - 00:30:57:18
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
Not Morty's Kaylen Adams. And, she's awesome. So, Kaylen, I mean, like, can people, like, follow you, like, on social media or anything if they want to? Yeah. Yeah. Where, where where can they find you? It's funny. I have to, like, go double check. Well, I can't fake my name. Oh, wait. What is it? Now that I just had to change my social media handles?

00:30:57:18 - 00:31:22:13
Kaylen Adams
Because I just got mail? I know well, and Instagram is actually really hard to change your last name on, so it hasn't been changed yet. My handle, but my name on there stage so you can find me at K Maltese Underscore on Instagram. It's cmake lta s underscore on Instagram Facebook Palin Adams look me up. I think that's all in I'm on because I'm old and TikTok that's okay.

00:31:22:17 - 00:31:32:21
Nick Clason | Hybrid Ministry
It's banned anyway. So actually it's back. I don't know if you heard but oh all right people. Well I'm signing off for Kayla and this is Nick. Talk to you next time. Stay hybrid guys.

Episode 046: How to be Present with your Social Media Presence

Nick Clason — Thu, 25 May 2023 04:00:00 -0500

What is Incarnational Ministry? It's Jesus' involvement in our life. How do we embrace the same philosophy of Jesus' ministry in our own ministry contexts? And how do we do so in a hybrid and digital way to show up where our church people, members and congregants and spending their time?

Follow Us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
Show Notes & Transcripts: http://www.hybridministry.xyz/046
FREE E-Book: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook

SHOWNOTES
THE ARTICLE BEING READ & REFERENCED:
https://youthministry360.com/blogs/all/how-to-be-present-with-your-social-media-presence

MY STUDENT SOCIAL MEDIA:
https://www.tiktok.com/@crosscreekchurch?lang=en

10 FREE SPIRITUAL PRACTICE TIKTOKS:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4n40o5080lblih/Spiritual%20Practice%20TikToks%20-%20Nick%20Clason%20and%20Bailey%20Fore.zip?dl=0

TIMECODES
00:00-02:18 Intro
02:18-07:24 How to be Present with your Social Media Presence
07:24-12:19 How do we Show Up Where our People are Spending their Time?
12:19-12:58 Don't post Announcements on Social Media
12:58-14:01 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hey there everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always, am your host, Nick Clason. Thrilled to be here again with you. And just let me let you know little bit of a shorter podcast today I'm actually gonna do something a little different, a little unique. I recently wrote an article for YM Short for Youth Ministry 360, um, titled How to Be Present With Your Social Media Presence. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop the link to that here in the show notes, but I'm actually just gonna read it for you, um, and also give you some author commentary as I, uh, am reading it through. So expect like a 10, 12 something minute pod. You probably already saw that. If you already downloaded this, if you're on YouTube, welcome in. Glad to have you. Excited to be with you.

Nick Clason (00:48):
And here's why. Honestly, um, this may release the week before, week after, not sure yet in the order. I'm doing a little bit of some batch pre-recording because my family and I are getting ready to go to Disney and I'm looking to just completely unplug from work, from this, from podcast side hustles, all the things I'm doing. Uh, so excited about unplugging, excited about getting ready to send and go and be with my family in Disney. Um, that being said, I, the, the craziest thing about this article is I wrote it, I can't even remember how long in advance, and then it dropped months later. Like I, I wrote it, I know when I lived in Chicago and it dropped just a couple weeks ago now when I'm living here in Dallas. And so my life has changed immensely. And when I heard it, there were elements of it that I was like, oh, that's interesting.

Nick Clason (01:34):
Oh, I don't know if I would've said it that way. And then there are other things I was like, yeah, I definitely still agree with that, you know, so I thought it'd be fun to bring to you all because I wrote it before, I think I wrote it before we even had a podcast going. So these thoughts, like, just think about that. If you've been on this journey with me listening to, to me in your ear ball holes for a while, think about this. These, these thoughts that have been ruminating inside of me and brewing inside of me. Uh, anyway, all that to be said, show notes, hybridministry.xyz. Subscribe to us on YouTube, follow me on TikTok Act place. And Nick also five star review if you would be so inclined. And without any further ado, let's dive into how to be present with your social media presence.

Nick Clason (02:19):
All right, here we go. How to be present with your social media presence. Read by the author himself, Nick Clayson. Here we go. Incarnational ministry. Did I lose anybody yet? Now before you go dust off your lexicon, you probably already know and embrace this as a characteristic in your life and in your ministry, right? Here's the thing. And I said this cuz I knew that, that pastors, youth pastors, who's ever gonna be reading it, primarily, this is a youth pastor. This isn't aside by the way, in case you didn't know primarily youth pastors reading this. They embrace and embody this, this characteristic, this idea of incarnation ministry just may not use it. You know, super frequently in our vocabulary anyway, in the gospels, we see Jesus going to be with his people that he encounters. So if our ministries are going to be a mirror of Christ's incarnation life and incarnation ministry, we are required to go and be with the people that we're ministering to.

Nick Clason (03:16):
And if you and I were youth pastors in the nineties, well we'd probably be found at the mall sitting next to a Chinese restaurant that's handing out free samples of their bourbon chicken and browsing hot topic on our way out the store. You know, you remember, however, if your towns anything like mine, well, the mall I just described as a of it, former of its former self. So where are all the teenagers hanging out? According to some statistics, 45% of Generation Z report that they're online, as they describe it as almost constantly, 45%, 24% of teams report feelings of discomfort if they go more than just one hour without access to the internet. And finally, on average, generation Z allocates two hours and 55 minutes per day on average to social media. So let's just be honest for a minute. The mall has gone to there, and let's be honest and frank, our pockets, it lives on our phones and the students that we're trying to reach and spend their time, they're online.

Nick Clason (04:26):
Regardless of your opinion of whether or not you believe that this amount of screen time is healthy, advantageous, it's probably not. It is where our students are spending the majority of their time. Let's pause for a minute. Um, a quick aside from this, I was in a recent Barna CoLab group on how to disciple Gen Z and their, they're sharing some recent findings, super interesting, super fascinating stuff. One of the things that they shared, um, actually it was a guy that they interviewed from a church and he said, uh, if Generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then generation alpha right behind them. By the way, if you're youth pastor, that is fifth and sixth, seventh, eighth grade, maybe not as high as seventh and eighth grade, but definitely like sixth, fifth, and on down. So they are the youth ministry of the future.

Nick Clason (05:13):
So if generation Z is the first digitally native generation, then that means that generation Alpha is the first digitally dependent generation. Crazy to think about. And so a lot of times, let's be honest with our generational age gap and difference, even as I'm a millennial, even as some fellow millennials, Xers, boomers on up, what is our constant, like, what are we constantly asking generation Z and younger to do? We're asking them to get rid of their phones. We're asking them to disconnect and unplug from technology. And while I think that there's advantages to that and it's advantageous for people to learn the disciplines of being able to break away, find some silence, find some solace and solitude, um, away from social media culture, away from online culture, I think all of that is well and good. I just think that you have a generation that is dependent on it.

Nick Clason (06:06):
It is literally their alarm clock. It's their calendar, it's their actual phone. It's where they communicate with all their friends, whether it be text message, Snapchat, be real, but it's, it's their their map, it's their navigation system. It's the way that they check their grades. It's how they pay for their school lunches. Like it's everything. It's not like, I'll give you this example. I am recording this podcast when I'm recording it in preparation for my trip to Disney World. Everything at Disney World is now online. It's in the my Disney Experience app Genie Plus, which is the replacement of Fast Passes, lightning Lanes, um, checking into my resort, making mobile food orders, like everything is on my phone. And you are at an amusement park with your family trying to unplug, trying to disconnect Bif, do you have to be on your phone? And there are people who are like, I'm done.

Nick Clason (06:56):
I'm not gonna do that. And that's fine. But the reality is we are moving more and more towards that than we are away from that. And so if this generation is dependent upon it, what we have to do is stop villainizing the phone and we have to start looking at it as an opportunity to teach them and disciple them through how to have faith with a phone through that lens. And I think that's my heart in this article, and that's what's coming through. Let's read the next section. So here's a question for you. If in the nineties you would've gone hung out at the mall to connect with students and teenagers, how in 2023, which is one of the articles written, how in 2023 are you showing up where your students are? See, I'm not necessarily proposing that the digital church replaces the in-person experience hybrid far from it.

Nick Clason (07:47):
But if your students go home after school and spend almost three hours on their phones, which is what the statistics told us, then couldn't you make an impact with your students or your people online? All right, so here's some ideas how to do that. If you've been listening to this podcast any length of time you've heard it, I'm gonna say it in idea and then I'm gonna riff on it. So I'm gonna say idea number one, idea number two, so that you're clear, okay, idea number one, share a devotional thought. Guys, you can hold your phone out in front of you and you can give either a recap of, or you can give a completely new and different from, not different cuz come, gonna come from the Bible, hopefully, but different from your sermon or from the lesson that week or whatever the case might be.

Nick Clason (08:29):
You can give just a devotional thought, boom. Hey guys wanna give you quick encouragement, 60 seconds or less. People don't want longer than that. Anyway, you can do a deep dive into an encouraging, um, or challenging passage of scripture. Again, 60 seconds or less. I, I think maybe it was Mark Twain, I'm not sure, but it was him who said, Hey, I wanted to write a short letter but I didn't have time. So I wrote a long letter. See, it takes more time to make something quick, concise, and short. Idea number three, have fun, create fun and funny posts. Hey, if you're not following us on TikTok on our student ministry, I would encourage you to, you can go check it out. We are Cross Creek students. Um, hopefully now we are at Cross Creek students. If not, I may still have it set as at Cross Creek Church cuz TikTok won't let me switch my name over to Cross Creek students, but that's ultimately the goal.

Nick Clason (09:18):
I've had a hard time switching it over. But we do fun and funny posts. I literally, right as I was walking into this spare bedroom of my house to record this podcast, I was literally posting a video of a girl drinking ranch dressing flavored soda and trying to guess the flavor of it. Like it's just fun. And honestly, what I do is I toss out the invite on a youth ministry night. Hey, you wanna be on TikTok tonight? Sure. They all come into the room. I have six bottles of soda with weird flavors. I have a game cud up on my laptop. And another thing with the filter on on TikTok, it gets me like 20 pieces of video content that I just store, bank and pull back out later when I need it in my calendar. Idea number four, film answers to theological questions, right?

Nick Clason (10:02):
People are inspired by answers to deep things that maybe you don't wanna put online, but things that students are dealing with. Like, why do bad things happen? How do I develop a habit? Why, how do I spend time with God even if I don't want to? Why would I go on obeying him and living a life of sinlessness or the goal of that if he's always just gonna forgive my sins? Anyway? You talk about that every week. What's the point of it? What does God think about gay people? Does God require me to be a democrat? Does God require me to be a Republican? What would Jesus think of our current political landscape? You get the idea. Idea number five, encourage spiritual practices and disciplines. I don't know if it's gonna get accepted or if it's out yet, but I recently submitted, if it is, I'll drop a link to it in the show notes.

Nick Clason (10:48):
I recently submitted 10 TikTok videos. Actually, you know what I'm gonna do? It's on ym, um, or I submitted it to d y m I don't know if they took it or not. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drop a link, uh, to that resource, the Dropbox resource in the show notes here, completely free charge. Just go grab it and use it. It's, uh, memorize scripture with me. Practice meditation, sit in silence, have a praise break, all kinds of different things. 10 different spiritual practices that that students or people or adults can use. It's not branded. So you can use it. Just download it and post it wherever you, uh, manage social media free for you. Uh, let's see. Are we on six idea number six, you can do recap posts or videos. Just take, literally you only need 3, 4, 5 seconds worth of of videos and you get like 10 of those real fast at the beginning of the night, um, or during your program.

Nick Clason (11:40):
And then you just put 'em into TikTok. Auto cut. Boom. You got a less than 22nd recap video. Phenomenal way to do that. Idea number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, less idea Number seven, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Figure out how to do that on social, whether it's static graphics, whether it's motion graphics, whether it's you talking graphics, whether it's voiceovers, give shout outs to leaders and volunteers. Finally, you can quiz students on their Bible knowledge. Uh, one of my favorite ways to do this is on the Instagram story editor with the story sticker, uh, uh, multiple choice story sticker. You can put it in there and you can ask them bible questions and test their Bible knowledge. Super fun way to go about doing that. Those are just some ideas to name a few. I don't know your context, but here's one thing that I do know, we're back to the article, is that I want you to notice that not one single idea that I mentioned above was an advertisement for an event.

Nick Clason (12:32):
We've gone into this, if you've listened to me for a while, you've heard this before. But what if we could use social media to encourage students to actually take the next step in their faith to engage with you or with your ministry, to challenge them to deeper more meaningful ways and a more meaningful walk with Jesus. It's not just another communication platform, which is what we often default social media into being. It's a means to help accomplish a more incarnation form of ministry. So that's it, that's the article. Love to know how you are using social media in your ministry context for more than just announcements to encourage people in their faith to show up where they are. But the bottom line is we are rooting for you. We are cheering you on. So glad you're in here. Hey, listen, if you didn't know this, 2023 is the year of short form video content, vertical video, short form content, less than 60 seconds. If you're like, man, I don't even know how to get this word out there, we got you right here. Link the description. If you're watching on YouTube or go grab our 100% completely free e-book titled, have I already ruined my Church's TikTok account? No. But this book will help teach you how to post one from start to finish all the way through doing it all on the phone in your pocket. So we're here for you, rooting you on. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being a loyal listener. And as always, we never forget.

Episode 031: Why should churches care about digital ministry in 2023?

Nick Clason — Thu, 16 Feb 2023 04:00:00 -0600

In this episode, Nick explores if there's value in digital ministry. What exactly is Hybrid Ministry? What are ways that the church can live out digital expressions that add value to in-person moments and in-person relationships? What are ways that the church can be more Hybrid?

Everything you need at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Follow Along on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
Or on TikTok at: http://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Hybrid Ministry Discussion on the Barna E-Book Episode: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/006

TIMECODES
00:00-01:31 Intro
01:31-08:03 Assumption: Social Media isn't relational
08:03-15:13 Let's define Hybrid Ministry
15:13-17:24 How are real relationships hybrid?
17:24-20:00 The Best Hybrid versions in our culture
20:00-31:48 The Best Hybrid Ideas for Churches in 2023
31:48-33:00 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:03):
Well, what is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast, and now on YouTube. Excited to be with you all. We're gonna test out a couple of video options here. See how these go. I know it'll go fine. Mostly I'm testing to see how much extra work it's gonna be. But, um, would love to have you join us over there if you want to check out for video stream as well. Something that is just another option. So we have audio, we have video but everything, the home base for it is http://hybridministry.xyz of course, cuz hybrid ministry.com was taken. So I'm your host, Nick Clason, excited to be with you. And in today's episode, what I actually wanted to discuss was this idea of why should churches even care about digital and hybrid ministry? Like what is the purpose?

Nick Clason (01:03):
We all saw the pitfalls downfalls and the reasons why digital ministry was not a good example. It was not a good thing during Covid. And so we are now past Covid. We're able to live in a more semi-normal world. Why in the world should churches even care about digital? So let's go ahead and let's get this episode underway. So let's talk about some assumptions, right? Like, I think that there are some general social media specific assumptions that say that social media is void of relationship, right? Like, the point of it is, I, I I don't know, right? Like the point of it is maybe to post some announcements and try and drum up some external, some marketing, so to speak, uh, examples of people who might not go to our church and we want to get them connected to our church.

Nick Clason (02:08):
But there's an assumption that like the real, the main thing that's gonna work is gonna be relationships of people to people inviting one another. Let me just say that, um, I've been doing student ministry social media now for 12 years, and never once has anyone of the accounts that I've ever run really gone viral, so to speak. Like we've never had more than like an inordinate amount of followers, never had more like a thousand followers. I have had a couple Instagram accounts with more than a thousand followers, but honestly like, that was not from anything that I, or we were doing. That was more an inherited thing where the Instagram account already had a high level of followers and we were just sort of like the beneficiaries of that account already having a lot of followers. So my point is nothing we did really drummed up a lot of outside interest.

Nick Clason (03:03):
Okay. And so this assumption that social media is not relationship based and you know, the purpose of it is to, you know, get people from the outside looking in. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that is, I think that's, I think that's a benefit. I think that, um, like we said in the last episode, the church is in a unique intersection where what you post can be both discovered by the people that go to your church, but also because of the new discovery algorithms, which this is probably why in my 12 years we haven't seen this, because these new algorithms that are being made famous by TikTok and then adopted by Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube on reels and shorts are, um, new. Like this is a new territory for churches because previously your people followed your pages and your accounts, and if you wanted more people to follow it, you had to pay for it.

Nick Clason (03:52):
And I've, I have never done that. And so my accounts never really did that, where there were like a lot of people coming to discover our accounts. And so now we are in a unique intersection where people might actually discover your church. And what's more interesting is that all of these algorithms, there's a uniqueness where they start out geographically local. So first the algorithm from what we've learned is they're pumped out to your followers, which are then pumped out to their followers, which are then pumped out to the, uh, like your geographical region, which is why a lot of times you can geotag your posts on Instagram, on TikTok, and so you can put your city, and so the people in your city might be exposed to your information first, and then beyond that it'll, you know, go to the state and viral and whatever the case might be.

Nick Clason (04:44):
But, but the reality is, the, the closer that you are, the more likely that the people around you are gonna find it. And so therefore, if people in your geographical region are discovering your videos, there is an actual chance that they might hear the message of Jesus from you and then take a step to become a visitor or a first timer at your church. I mean, wouldn't that be amazing? Wouldn't that, wouldn't that be one of the goals that we're looking for here? Um, and again, like I said, I haven't experienced that in a lot of cases, and I think that's because that really wasn't an option up here until very recently. Um, however, there's still the argument that like, no one's gonna come to our church based off of that. And that might be true. And I think that it depends on your style of church, if you're, um, a more of an outreach centric church that you want that.

Nick Clason (05:34):
And so you're gonna be more gung-ho about this idea. And if you're more of a discipleship centric church, which tends to be a little more inward facing, um, not because you believe that that's more valuable and more important, but that just tends to be the vibe, um, that comes with it, then you are gonna prioritize some of those relationships more over, um, like, like cold leads or, or, you know, top of a funnel marketing type of terminology to borrow from the secular world. So, um, all that to be said, there's this assumption, there's this notion that social media, um, and social ministry is void of real relationships. And I would just, I would debunk that and say that I think that that's not entirely true. Um, I agree to a point that it can be done that way and, um, that, that this ministry, that this focus in your church needs some very particular and very, um, deliberate attention.

Nick Clason (06:34):
Like it cannot just, in my personal opinion, it cannot be put on autopilot anymore. It cannot be put on the back burner. There needs to be a person more than a volunteer and more than someone's like, uh, section of their full-time hours devoted to social media. Like you probably need a full-on person, um, not someone to do double duty. Like, like even right now, um, I am a youth pastor, but I'm like on a team of three and of the three, I'm the one tasked with digital and video and social media, website, whatever, right? Like that in and of itself is a full-time job. And sometimes my youth ministry duties have actually, like, you know, this week I had to make calls to interview students about baptism, um, and we're onboarding a bunch of new students to volunteer. Like sometimes those things feel like they're in the way of my digital stuff and that, that's out of balance for me personally.

Nick Clason (07:34):
Um, but that's my point in saying that this digital of it's all consuming, it just takes up such a gigantic portion and it it is vast and it is huge. And, um, and there's a lot of opportunity and there's a lot of potential. And so to just dump it on someone as like a, hey, 10 hours of your week, like it's, that is so hard. It's gonna be very difficult for that person to be able to, you know, to make, to make, uh, that 10 hours work for them the way that you're probably hoping that it would work. So in Covid, right, we learned that we're not built to be completely isolated. And so just social, um, and that's, that's the whole, that's the whole origin of this podcast is I felt like we were debating, um, when I started this podcast in late 2022, I guess mid 2022, um, we were debating between in-person ministry and digital ministry, especially where I was, we had, we were still working and operating out of a lot of the rules that we had built for C O V with the show that we had made for C O V D.

Nick Clason (08:38):
Like, we hadn't let that go. We were still producing it weekly. Um, and we had found a way to pivot from strictly online to a more in-person model where groups watched it in host homes. Um, and then they discussed the, the message afterwards. And I thought it was incredibly ingenious and innovative. Um, but there were a lot of people in our church that that didn't, and they were ready to just quote unquote go back. And, you know, we had a, a marketing guy, and if you listen to some of our first, I think like seven episodes, um, Matt was actually the co-host of this podcast. Uh, we both made cross-country moves. And, um, I, I don't know what happened to him. I never got him back, really. I mean, we still talk, but he would keep saying like, yeah, yeah, I just gotta get my computer set up, gotta get my computer set up.

Nick Clason (09:22):
And eventually I was like, all right, Matt's not getting his computer set up. I'm just, I I got a produce weekly episode, so I can't wait on him anymore, right? So, uh, here we are and I'm just kinda doing this thing. Anyway, besides point Matt marketing, honestly, genius guru in my opinion. He said, the world we live in is now hybrid. In fact, Barna did a study, we did a couple episodes on it, I'll link to them in the show notes, um, did a couple episodes on the findings that we found from Barna study, and they, they titled it the, the state of hybrid church or something like that. And what it said, what it found was that especially the younger generations, the generations that are going to be filling our pews and churches here in the next couple years, gen Z and millennials said a hybrid, um, version of church is going to suit them very well.

Nick Clason (10:11):
What that often scares us with on two fronts is, number one, it feels like we're shifting away from in person. And I think a lot of times in person, and I've talked about this multiple times, I think a lot of times in person, room or moment or feeling is for the, the vanity of the pastor, and not even in like a sinful or bad way, but just like, man, getting up in front of a room full of people feels really good and you feel like you feel like you've done something and you've been somewhere and there's, there's a shot of like adrenaline into your like arm every time you get up there to preach. Even I, I find myself like finding more value from preaching to a live room of, of humans with interaction, um, like just, you know, face-to-face interaction. Um, then I, then I do from a, a TikTok video that goes viral wave over like 3000 something views.

Nick Clason (11:02):
Like, it just, it doesn't feel the same. And I get it. And you know what? I don't know that it is the same. I think you have a much more captive audience, even in a room of a few hundred than you do, um, with a, a short form under 62nd video that that has over a thousand something views, right? All that to be said, I'm not proposing that, that you throw one quote unquote baby out with a bathwater. We live in a hybrid world, right? So I found this stat incredibly fascinating. 76% of American surveyed ha uh, have a friend that they've met online only they've never met in person. Right? Now, you might be thinking, how is that possible? Again, if you're older, think younger generations gaming and, and you know, chat rooms and whatever and whatnot. Like of course in the nineties chat rooms were pedophiles want to hang out, and they probably still do, right?

Nick Clason (11:55):
But, but 76% of Americans have a friend in some way, shape or form gaming social media that they've never met in person. Like I have an anecdotal real example. I have a friend named Dan that, um, for the first three to six months of our life, or not life of our relationship life, , uh, it was strictly online. Uh, many of you know I've told this story, but I started at my last church on day one of Covid and went immediately into lockdown. So the number of real live human beings at my church that I met was very, very small. The number of real life human beings that I met on Zoom after that was very, very large. And, um, you know, I had met a decent number of the staff, at least from my interview or on my first day on the job, but then to meet other people.

Nick Clason (12:49):
And Dan was a, just a regular church attender volunteer who led a, a hybrid, not hybrid, actually strictly online small group. I had a relationship with Dan. Um, and, and he even said, he's like, you are like the poster child for me, or the poster example of what it looks like for somebody who, uh, says like, you can't make friends with someone online. He's like, we totally made friends, you know, with each other online. And so these are examples, both empirical data. 76% of Americans say, I have a friend with someone who's completely online. And even in my own life, like I would say I had a real relationship with him, um, it would've been great to be sitting in the same living room or whatever, but at the same time, you know what, every Tuesday night, I just got my laptop out in the comfort of my own home brew, a cup of my own coffee that I personally enjoyed more than like a cake cup that someone was gonna gimme at their house.

Nick Clason (13:49):
And we sat down for small group. And you know, what was funny was like our church would do this thing where like you'd watch the live stream on YouTube, and this was the archetype for our student ministry. The group's team of course, stole it, but we'd watch the video on YouTube, and then everyone would log in to their campus specific zooms via a link in the description, and then a moderator there would break everyone out into breakout rooms. So they would sort of have control over the entire call, and then they would give a warning after like an hour or so that all the groups would, uh, be, be closing down by the moderator who's just literally sitting there out in the waiting room, just kinda waiting for people to be kicked out of their breakout rooms and reassign them or whatever. Super boring job I've done a million times youth ministry.

Nick Clason (14:33):
Uh, so a couple times those ended and we, our entire small group just jumped off and got into our very own room, and had group until like 11 or 12. We weren't, you know, at that point we weren't talking about spiritual stuff. We were just joking around, goofing off, having fun, whatever, right? My point is, relationships can exist in an online space. You just have to be deliberate. You just have to be intentional, and you have to be able, willing, willing to massage those relationships. So let's talk about, um, some hybrid ways that relationships can exist.

Nick Clason (15:14):
So some of you might know this, um, but a couple weeks ago, my, my wife's mom, my mother-in-law, uh, passed away from a two plus year long battle with cancer. It was, it was rough, man, like, not gonna lie, but, um, the thing I wanna kind of extract or highlight is the moment that the day that she passed away and that it became more public because of social media. Again, another example, um, my phone was flooded with text messages. My wife's phone was flooded like threefold, tenfold with text messages. Um, every single one of those people were people that we had met in person at one moment in time or another, whether they be a family member, whether they'd be a friend, whether they'd be a former colleague or work associate from another job that we'd been at. They'd all been people we'd met in real life person before.

Nick Clason (16:12):
However, the relationship at that moment existed in a hybrid space. Very few people in that exact moment were with us. I mean, I, I had to drive from Texas all the way back to Ohio, so the only people with me were me and my two kids. Um, and her, she was with her sister and with some family friends, and then everybody else reached out and provided love and care and support via text message that that is an example of a hybrid relationship. You know what I mean? Um, and, and some people were people that I work with now at the church I'm at at now. Other people were people I worked, worked with in the past that reached out either way, right? Like they're all people I knew, but they're all showing up for me in a hybrid way. So, uh, I wanna talk about a few, uh, examples of like other businesses that we might interact with in the world in with hybrid sort of interactions.

Nick Clason (17:22):
Let's dive in examples of real life hybrid interactions. My favorite of this is Home Depot, right? I interact with Home Depot at the store level. I drive up, I go into the store, I grab 98 cents of plumbing tape, right? Uh, that's an example of me interacting with Home Depot at a physical level. Okay? All right. So another example of course is me interacting with Home Depot at an online level. I might go on the website and I might see how much of a certain item is in stock that, but I'm not in the store. I'm completely in my house. I'm looking at all my computer on the app, but the, the app actually is my favorite feature. When I'm in the store. I almost never, like, if I walk around in the store for like more than two minutes and I can't figure out where an item might be, I immediately pull up the app, which often I've uninstalled from my phone, so I reinstall it.

Nick Clason (18:25):
Then I like, almost, the first thing I do when I walk into Home Depot is begin to reinstall the Home Depot app, find my local Home Depot, the one I'm physically standing in, and then I look that item up, whatever it is, to try and find it, and then it'll tell me exactly where it is, what aisle, what bay, and how many more they have in stock. I love that feature. That's hybrid. I'm in person, I'm in the store, but I'm interacting with a digital piece of technology, uh, you know, for my relationship with Home Depot. Another o another example is a dentist office, right? You go to a physical visit. But I love when a service like this has a great website, especially for being able to book appointments or being able to reach out. This last week, I brought my car to an auto mechanic shop.

Nick Clason (19:13):
I called them, not there, called them, right? That's an example of me from my house calling them. That's old school technology. You get it right? Then I show up, I'm in their office. But then when I was done, you know what they did? They sent me a text message to let me know that my car was ready. You see all these things, and I, I think like in a lot of ways, like when we talk about digitization or hybridization of church and of ministry, we don't even know what that looks like. So right now, in a lot of ways that's social media, that's video content, but the reality is like, some of this is uncharted territory. So for 2023, for right now, for someone just starting out, what are some examples? What are some ways that your church can live and exist in hybrid ministry?

Nick Clason (20:01):
All right, so like I said, I think a little bit of this is like pioneering uncharted territory, pilgrim's progress. Like, we don't know some of these answers, but, um, what are some examples of ways that your church can, uh, live and and be hybrid? So the first one is probably the most obvious one, and probably the easiest one, I would say is your Sunday sermon. Okay? So what are ways that your Sunday sermon can exist in a hybrid space? Well, first and foremost, right? You can, while someone is sitting in the auditorium, they can interact with and engage with your sermon notes, or they can interact and engage with, um, some self-guided like outlines or ways for them to take notes. So, like in my church, my pastor puts his notes on our church app. Um, it's honestly, it's essentially probably the manuscript that he's up there preaching with as I've looked at it.

Nick Clason (20:58):
Like, it's very thorough. Um, and my guess is that that's like a, that's a workload decision, right? Like he already built this. So if he just copy, if, if they or someone just copy and paste and put this into the app, uh, that's not that much more work for him. My personal favorite example is the you version events feature. So in everyone's you version Bible app that most people have downloaded on their phones, if not, definitely recommend it. Cause again, it's another way to interact with people in a hybrid way. Um, there's an events tab that you can create, like a self-guided sort of outline, and then people can, can take and add notes to certain headers or certain bible verses, um, that, that are related to or interact with the passage. And then they can also link out to like videos or other, like further discussions.

Nick Clason (21:51):
One of the things I try to do is I try to challenge myself to add one option of a, a link out from a u version event for deeper study or for more information, or for a longer YouTube video that I didn't, you know, didn't have time to show or didn't have time to look like fully, you know, unpack. I try to challenge myself to do that every week. Again, to just think hybrid, right? Brady Shearer has made this phrase famous, but the other, the additional 167 hours of somebody's week. So then beyond that moment, beyond that Sunday service, um, you can of course rip out the audio. Um, if you're already live streaming, um, you can have live stream, you can post those videos to YouTube. You can, uh, long form podcast content on a podcast feed. That's a way for it to be hybrid.

Nick Clason (22:45):
And then finally, ways for that to live on and, and find its way into that, that intersection of your church, people being reminded of the message and people from outside your church may be discovering and stumbling upon your message are short form Instagram reels, TikTok videos, YouTube shorts. Um, if you're already live streaming your content, you're sitting on a goldmine of social media content. You don't have to, uh, come up with as much social media content as you did in the past. You already have it. You have the short, or you have the long form video. Clip it up into minute segments. Find a good hook, get a good editor. And, uh, hey, if you don't have a good editor, but you're interested in it, reach out. Um, I'm interested in, uh, starting something, you know, kind on the side for myself to be doing this and serving churches in that, that way.

Nick Clason (23:38):
Um, I don't exactly have a framework for that or what that looks like. Hit me up on dms, on TikTok, or, you know, reach out to me via YouTube, all those links in the show notes@hybridministry.xyz. What about groups? What about relationships? How do you hybridize relationships, right? Because that's sort of the basis for this whole thing, is that social isn't, isn't built on relationships. And I would agree with that in the nitty gritty. Like when, you know, when my mother-in-law passes away, I want someone to really show up for me or really call me or really, you know, text me, um, not just, you know, interact with them at a, at a digital or social social media type level, right? But for a lot of people, the discovering of groups or finding their place or finding their people, that's half of the battle. And so if your church does not have some sort of group finder, I, I would highly recommend doing that.

Nick Clason (24:36):
If your church is about groups in some way, shape, or form that are open that people opt themselves into, then get yourself a group finder, a catalog, if you will, of the options available at your church for people to find and discover real authentic community. Because you and I know that community is really what changes things. It's what takes a church from their church to my church. So get on a group finder of some way, shape, or form. And then once you're in those groups, here are other ways that, that those groups exist and live in a hybrid sort of sense. You might use a infrastructure like Facebook group, you might use a GroupMe, you might use a group chat, or you might use some other tool feature that someone's gonna develop down the road. Maybe I'll do it and get rich, I don't know.

Nick Clason (25:23):
But, um, for the groups to have some sort of calendar of events, a place for them to have message boards with announcements, um, text messages to interact back and forth, prayer requests, all kinds of different stuff, but a place for the group to live beyond when the group meets, right? Again, the other 167 hours of that group's relationship. When is that? Where is that? When does that take place? The last area, so we talked about sermons, we talked about relationships. Now let's talk about information. You know, uh, churches more than just information people are distilled down to more than just the information that they, uh, put into their brains, okay? But like another example of ways that, that things can exist in a hybrid sort of way is some classes. So you already have your Sunday morning service. You probably already have groups. People probably can't devote too many more hours to the church, but maybe they do want to grow.

Nick Clason (26:24):
Maybe they want to grow in their knowledge of theology, or maybe they want to grow in, in a specific topic. Um, a dating marriage, right? Whatever the case might be. Your church with the 40 hours a week in your office can film some content and, and put up a catalog or a library of courses, like on a website or on an app, six week course, eight week course, something like that. So again, if someone's really committed, they may not have the time to drive back over to your church and sit through a class, find childcare, all the things. But once the kids go to bed, if they wanna pull up in their laptop and learn more, grow more in the area of theology, love, dating, marriage, spiritual gifts, right? Like you name it, you can offer a library of some of those content. I mean, products already sort of exist for that right now for churches, right now.

Nick Clason (27:14):
Media is an example of it. Um, but again, I've found that to be more small groupy content. So you can create something, you, if there's a need, you can scratch that itch, a leadership type academy. And you might even have like a leadership academy for high level leaders in your, in your, um, organization in your church that come together every so often in person. But then after they come together, if the primary goal of it is, is information and knowledge, um, and then, and information transfer, you can accomplish that for sure. You can accomplish that in a hybrid sort of way. Um, more than just short form video sermon content. You can provide short form, social media, TikTok, YouTube type content. Um, like about any topic right now, I'm doing like a little bit of a theology 1 0 1, like a deep dive into like certain areas and elements.

Nick Clason (28:06):
Um, and I'm putting posting on TikTok two times a week. It's a little mini-series that people probably just like randomly scrolling through, aren't gonna notice that they're all like interwoven and connected together. But in my mind they are. And so anyone who sees it, they're, they're gonna learn something more about God or about Jesus, or about creation or about salvation, or about the Holy Spirit or whatever the case might be. Um, because I don't have time to always get into all that, right? Like whatever our series is that's sort of driving and dictating, um, what's, what's being taught from the platform. But there are other necessary things that I think people, my students need to know that I don't have time for it, but this is a way that I can create time for it in the other hours of the week. Um, there are also examples and ways to do longform, you know, uh, styles not just short form.

Nick Clason (28:57):
So audio podcasts are huge. A lot of adults, something like 80 something percent of adults listen to three hours of podcasts a week. So, um, I think, um, Mariners, like Eric Geiger out of Mariners is doing a phenomenal job because the thing I love about him is he's conservative theologically for sure. Um, and so he's not just like out there trying to like get vanity metrics or whatever, right? But the thing he's doing is he's, he's finding ways to use the technology to teach deeper, more robust, you know, truth. And so he's doing a thing like, uh, a podcast called like the, the things that didn't make it into the sermon. Basically, if you're a pastor and you've done this before, you know that you, you prepare a load of content, but then you have to start cutting to get it down to a certain minute mark, right?

Nick Clason (29:46):
So he's doing a podcast on all the things he had to cut from his sermon, um, once a week to just dive deeper into more information. Um, and I, I think that that's brilliant. You know, I think that's a brilliant way, uh, to just add more value to the, the people in your church's, you know, life. Um, and if they're interested in it, that's great. A couple years ago, we, back when Facebook Live was a really big thing, me and another pastor on my staff, we sat, sat down for a thing called Tuesdays at two, and we just, uh, unpacked the sermon from sort of our eyes and our, our vantage point, you know? Um, and we would just have a conversation, um, as sort of interview style. And I mean, he was a licensed biblical counselor, so, uh, he was just a wealth of knowledge.

Nick Clason (30:31):
And so I, I almost operated more like as the host, and I would just toss him questions and let him sort of like unpack and untangle, you know, take the, the theology or the, the preaching and, and bring it down to more of like a boots on the ground level. At least. At least that was the goal. So all kinds of like ideas out there of ways that you can service and serve your congregation in a hybrid sort of way that is not void of relationship, that is meaningful and that people in your church will take advantage of. You just have to think hybrid. So I'd encourage you lean into it. Like I said, we're on the, a little bit the pioneering front because we had solutions for digital pre covid. It was mostly live streaming your service. Then in C O V I D, we all went full bore into it, and it was uncomfortable and unfamiliar.

Nick Clason (31:24):
Um, and so once restrictions lifted, we went back to what was familiar. Many of us went back to what was familiar, and I'll just encourage you to not abandon some of those things, but, but listen for and look for ways that you can show up in the other hours of your church members weeks. Those are gonna be what's important and valuable to them. Well, hey everyone, if you found this, uh, podcast helpful, please share it with a friend. Help us get the word out, http://hybridministry.xyz. We provide complete full show transcripts for every single episode that we've ever produced. Also, head to the blog section of that and you can grab our free social media checklist, what to do every time you post a social media, and our free complete guide to posting a TikTok from scratch, from start to finish. That is on there. And again, we are on YouTube now at this episode being the first one. Hey, to everyone on YouTube, check that out if you will get a link for that as in the show notes. And until next time, talk to y'all later. Stay hybrid.

Episode 030: The Advantages that Churches FINALLY have on Social Media in 2023

Nick Clason — Thu, 09 Feb 2023 04:00:00 -0600

In this Episode, Nick breaks down the advantage that churches have on social and with digital media in 2023 and beyond. And how your church can lean into that advantage, not only to train, equip and raise up your own members, but also to reach those around you with the message and hope of Jesus.

For complete transcripts head to http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Follow along on social https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Or YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@sonicsman8/featured

TIMECODES
00:00-00:32 Intro
00:32-03:23 The Church has the Advantage on Social Media in 2023
03:23-05:50 The History of Social Media
05:50-06:50 The Stars have aligned in 2023 for churches on social media
06:50-09:53 - Advantage #1: Content Creation is at the Core of a Church's Weekly Work Routine
09:53-12:51 - Advantage #2: Content Creation is at the Core of the Senior Leader's weekly job
12:51-19:05 - Advantage #3: Content Creation, and the sharing of it, hits at a preferred intersection for churches
19:05-20:52 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What is up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I, as always, am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be with you wherever you are. Listen, I was gonna stay excited to be with you on this morning. I just got done with a little morning run, drinking a little morning coffee. Uh, but you might be listening to me in the evening. You might be listening to me while you're doing dishes. You, you also might be listening to me on run, wherever you are listening, said to have you with us, uh, this morning. Today, I wanted to talk about the three distinct advantages that churches have on social media in 2023. If you are anything like me, uh, the people that you follow, the algorithms that you're in especially if you've listened to the Pro Church tools or anything that Brady Shearer produces.

Nick Clason (00:52):
You have heard this before but in the event that you're not and I have some unique twists to it as well. I just think that wherever, wherever you are, wherever your role is, whether if you're like a ministry leader, a, a student pastor, a senior pastor, a church marketing person, a church communications person, whatever your role is, I think it's important to note that the church today in 2023 has a distinct advantage on social media, an advantage that they haven't had in, I would say, years. Um, in all my entire time as, um, a church leader, a pastor, youth pastor, I've never experienced or noticed an advantage much like what we have today. So, um, I'm excited to share that with you Before we dive in. Um, anything that you need show wise, you can head to hybrid ministry.xyz. Um, if you click on the, uh, articles or the blog section there of the website, that is where you can access our completely 100% free ebook and our 100% free checklist signing up for either one of those will get both of those resources into your inbox automatically for free.

Nick Clason (02:03):
So go check those out. We would love to have you there. And if you didn't know this, every single episode that we have, uh, has transcripts and is, um, put on, on the website into every episode's archive. And so that is a just completely 100% free resource that we make available to you so that you can go back and not have to listen back through, but you can read through. Um, and let me just warn you that because, uh, this podcast is still, you know, I'm still not making money on it. It's something that I am paying for out of my pocket. I have not, I have not paid Rev, who I use rev.com. I've not paid them to do the human transcription. Yep. So I'm still doing ai. Uh, so even sometimes I go back to my own archives to look for things, but, uh, sometimes it's a little bit hard to muddle through because it's AI transcribed.

Nick Clason (02:53):
So sorry for that. If you're out there, sponsor us, and, um, maybe we'll start springing for the human transcription so it's got a little bit more level of accuracy. Um, but hey, uh, head to the show notes for anything that we mentioned today. Um, like I said, grab our free ebook on, have I already ruined my TikTok account? A complete Guide to Posting a TikTok from Scratch. 100%. All that being said, let's dive in the three distinct advantages that churches have on social media in 2023. Let's go. All right, so 2023 social media. Here we are. Let's think about it. The church has a distinct advantage, one that they have not seen in a lifetime. I think of a lot of social media. So, um, social media historically has been a social platform, right? That's where the, the term social comes from, because humans are connecting one-on-one with other people on the other side of the screen.

Nick Clason (03:45):
So think Facebook started as a college, uh, on a college campus so that people could get to know one another, that they maybe haven't met people that they recognize by face. So it's very, uh, it was very built as a, uh, human to human connection sort of portal. But over time, it's evolved and it's become sort of like an, an online photo album. Different social platforms have taken on different life forms, Twitter, sort of like a micro blogging, uh, place to kind of like listen and look at things live. Like I, I use Twitter a lot for sports. Instagram was a photo sharing app. Um, and you could, you know, at its inception, you could only share one photo and it could only be Square. And so, um, part of the problem was that Facebook would, would really recommend you creating like, full online albums, like share your entire trip to Brazil with us, where Instagram is like, share the best photo from your trip to Brazil.

Nick Clason (04:36):
And then Twitter was like, while you're there, live tweet, right? So all of those had u had unique and completely different, um, purposes. Then throw in YouTube, which is the second largest search engine in the world. Some would say three behind Google images, but either way, they're all under the Google umbrella. So, um, Instagram, or I'm sorry, YouTube being a search engine, um, and long form video, that's a completely separate piece and style of content that is needed from Facebook, from Instagram, from Twitter. And then, oh, by the way, here, bursting on the scene is this brand new thing called TikTok, short form video, where people just do dances and goofy silly stuff. So what are we supposed to do with that? So you got photo albums, you got groups and pages over on Facebook. You got micro blogging and live tweeting things. You got Instagram, single photo sharing apps, eventually stories added in.

Nick Clason (05:31):
And then you got YouTube long form video, and they're all different. And so if you're a church leader, and if you're like the senior pastor and you're also keeping your social media afloat, you're just doing whatever it takes to like serve each of the platforms at its bare minimum. But now in this weird aligning of stars in 2023, I would say, because of the, um, prominence and popularity of TikTok, churches have a unique and distinct advantage that they have not had in years. And that is this short form vertical video content is now being pushed across all of the major platforms. Yes, Facebook, yes, Instagram, yes, YouTube, and obviously yes, TikTok. So your core four, your main four players that I would recommend that you as a church be active on, on social media. You can have all four accounts, and better yet, you can post to all four accounts, the exact same piece of content across all four accounts.

Nick Clason (06:37):
And for the first time ever, you're not dinged. In fact, you're encouraged to do that. So let's take a look at reason number one, why the church has a distinct advantage on social media in 2023. So, advantage number one is that content creation is at the core of what a church's weekly work rhythm is. So think about this, your church every single week hosts a gathering where a piece of content is delivered to a group of people. Um, think like, and that is an, that is an amazing advantage that most people don't have, because most, if you're a plumber or if you're an auto mechanic, or if you are a big box store retailer, right? You also want to be on social media. It's part of marketing, it's a part of driving up business and getting clientele and people discovering you. But what in the heck is a plumber or what is a big box store retailer?

Nick Clason (07:39):
Or what is a, um, auto mechanic? What are they doing every single day? They're fixing leaky drains. They're selling things to people as cashiers at Walmart. They're, they're, they're, uh, they're fixing people's cars, timing belts, right? That's what the primary like, focus of their work is. And so if an auto mechanic wants to be active and vibrant and relevant on social media, that auto mechanic is going to probably either a, take his phone with him under the car and do some tutorial videos or something like that. But if that auto mechanic is any good, he's probably really busy and he has, doesn't have time to be posting, editing, putting captions over, you know, screens. So then what does an auto mechanic do? He hires his young Gen z uh, nephew to come in and run social media, but that nephew has never touched a car before.

Nick Clason (08:30):
And so that nephew is just trying to like, keep their Instagram feed posted, um, and keep it active and with like, graphics and things like that, okay? The point is, an auto mechanic is not in the business of content creation. Neither is a plumber, neither is a store. Now, the really good ones are, right? And those are the ones that you probably watch. You have a leaky drain, you go on YouTube or you go on YouTube shorts, you're gonna find a plumber who's done a tutorial that's a really good plumber who's creating some content. But the reality is not a hundred percent of plumbers are doing that. Not a hundred percent of businesses are doing that. Not a hundred percent of auto mechanics are doing that. The church weekly 52, sometimes 51 weeks a year. Cause some churches take that week between Christmas and New Year's and doing online only service, but even still, they're creating content.

Nick Clason (09:16):
So go, I digress back to 52, 52 weeks a year, 52 times in a year, you are creating content to be delivered to somebody that is age old, that has been a part of what the church has done for decades, centuries. Um, the, so the reality is this, right? The reality is that, um, short form video content loves content, loves created, custom curated content, and the church has a unique advantage because it already is creating that content within the rhythm of what it does. Okay? Advantage number two. So not only is content creation at the core of the church's weekly work rhythm, but content creation is at the core of what the senior leadership does within the organization. Let's go back to our plumber or automechanic mechanic analogy. Usually the head, the CEO of the business is not the content creator. So if you as a plumber wanna have a popin TikTok account, you probably have to hire somebody who's good at marketing to create a Popin TikTok account.

Nick Clason (10:27):
If you as a auto mechanic wanna have a Popin TikTok account, you gotta bring in your nephew, okay? Now, maybe your senior pastor isn't very tech savvy. Maybe your senior pastor isn't even very active on social media. But what your senior pastor does is your senior pastor sits down and weekly writes up content. And so the head, the most, um, the, the best figurehead of your entire organization is standing up and presenting a prepared piece of content weekly. We already, we already talked about that, right? But it comes from the very tippy top of your organization. So if you were to bring in your nephew and an auto mechanic shop, the nephew's like, Hey, you should do some tutorial videos. I would imagine the auto mechanics like, bro, I don't have time for that. I get outta here with your newf fangled social media, TikTok video, things like, I, I can't go under the hood with a phone.

Nick Clason (11:26):
I, I don't even know how to work this thing, right? That's the difference. The senior pastor gets up weekly to prepare or to present prepared content to a group of people, to a room full of people. So that bodes well for you. Why does that bode well for you? Because your, your, uh, social media accounts on your, on, um, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, whatever, people probably follow your church because they go to your church. And so therefore, when they see your senior pastor on a video, that's a very recognizable face that's much more recognizable than your church communications person. No offense, that's you watching this, or your digital marketing specialist. Again, no offense if that's you watching this, or even your youth pastor who you handed your phone to and said, Hey, please keep us relevant on social media. They may see the youth pastor preach 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 times a year, but they see the senior pastor preach almost weekly.

Nick Clason (12:21):
And so when they're scrolling through a feed and they see the senior pastor on your social media, he is going to be a very recognizable person. He's also probably your most skilled communicator. So also you can use that to your advantage. Put your most skilled, uh, oral, um, person, oral, uh, presenter out there for the, for both your church people to see, but also for other people to see, which leads us to our third distinct advantage for churches advantage. Number three is that content creation and the sharing of that created content hits at a unique intersection of what most churches are looking to do. So what are most churches looking to do? Well, you can go back to Matthew chapter 28, verse 18 through 20. Jesus says, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.

Nick Clason (13:23):
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age, baked within the great commission, we find something that comes from the greatest commandment. Matthew chapter 22, where Jesus says you are to number one, love the Lord your God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And second, love your neighbor as yourself. What is the church meant to do? The church is meant to help people learn the ways, the methods, the mission, the the content, the character, the competencies of Jesus to adopt those things. So for believers to grow more and more into the image and likeness of Jesus. And also the church is meant to go to make disciples, to reach out beyond our walls, to share and show the love of Jesus. And short form, vertical video content hits at the intersection where both your church people are, and people outside of your walls are living.

Nick Clason (14:19):
And so both are scrolling through social media, both are scrolling through some sort of discovery algorithm on one of the four core social media platforms, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or TikTok. And boom, they're stopped with an inspirational message because it's a weekly thing curated by your senior leadership. And now they are stopping, scrolling and looking at a video and being encouraged, equipped, and discipled. All right, so now what? So with these three distinct advantages, now, what does this mean for you? Well, you might be watching this and you might be, um, a church leader who doesn't have any time to really do anything about that. You might be a, uh, marketing manager and you can't get your senior pastor to let you onto these platforms. So the first thing you need to do is you need to, uh, use a little bit of persuasion maybe, and show some analytics about the popularity of these discovery algorithm, um, apps, and the fact that every single social media platform is pushing and highlighting and promoting this type of content.

Nick Clason (15:21):
The other thing, if you're already live streaming your service, which Covid brought most people into that, um, then take clips, then watch through your sermon and, and take some clips and watch through them. If you are interested in, um, looking through some examples of ones that I have done in my own ministry and for other ministries of places that I am in partnership with, uh, hit me up, reach out to me. Um, you can DM me on Instagram at Clason nick or on TikTok at Clason nick to see some of those examples. Uh, but be looking through your live stream messages to, um, find two or three different clips that you can post and promote a week. Now, what if you're not live streaming? What do you do? Well, you can go back to another episode. I'll drop the, the episode link in the show notes.

Nick Clason (16:08):
But I gave my complete custom setup for it, creating YouTube content for churches on a budget. And the primary thing that I, I recommend is that I recommend that you, uh, pre film your talks. So I'll give you an example. I'm a youth pastor in a, a church with a fairly large auditorium, but we, the auditorium that I'm in is not the main auditorium. So we don't have all the bells and whistles to do a live stream. And so instead of us trying to jimmy rig a phone in the back or figure out a way to like drop $50,000 to retrofit our auditorium, uh, to do a good live stream, I take my camera on my phone, prop it up on a tripod and fill myself or any one of the other people on our team before we deliver the message live on a Wednesday.

Nick Clason (16:53):
So we use that to post on YouTube, and then we go back to that content to edit and, and clip out the things. So the other things that you need to be doing, um, as you're listening to sermons, is you wanna be listening to things that are good hooks. Uh, so yesterday I was sitting in a sermon, I was sitting in my, my church's sermon, um, and I heard my pastor give this analogy, this five finger analogy of how to learn and, and know and memorize God's word better. And I thought, boom, that's an amazing reel. So I'm gonna go find it and I'm gonna clip it up. Um, and so if you're interested in that, head to my TikTok or head to, uh, my Instagram to check out example of that or just DM me for the link, I'll show it to you Again, that's Instagram, TikTok.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Um, and my handle is at Clason, c l a s o n, Nick, n i c k. So, um, and then, uh, hone your editing skills. Here's the beautiful thing. If you don't have the, the best software to do it on a computer, you can do most of it on the TikTok app. So you can bring clips into your TikTok app and use the studio, uh, feature to edit that. Again, if you don't know how to do it. If you've never opened TikTok before and you're like, what in the world am I looking at? Head to the link in my show notes and grab our free ebook on how to edit and post a TikTok completely from start to finish. It will show you how to use the studio feature in TikTok, how to edit and how to, um, create clips that matter, that grab people's attention.

Nick Clason (18:22):
Um, and that stop the scroll. The biggest thing you're looking for when you're clipping things up is not just to put little clips of your pastor out there, but you're looking to find a good hook. And either your pastor says a hook creates a good hook in his talking, or if he doesn't, you can use that, that famous voiceover feature and say, um, you know, using like the AI auto sound thing, this is like five ways to memorize and learn scripture. Cuz I don't know that my pastor gave a good hook for that. So I'll do that, probably voiceover effect and then boom, I'll clip his thing up and I mean, he took probably five minutes on it and I'm gonna clip it down into under 60 seconds. So I'm just gonna make it quick, quick cuts fast, uh, memorable, and boom, it's gonna be out there.

Nick Clason (19:05):
So if you found this helpful, glad you're here. Thanks for jumping in. Listen, you have the message and hope that is available to the entire world. So don't be afraid or ashamed or shy to share it. Use social media. Um, lean in to hybrid to get the message of God's people out there, both to remind and remember, um, or to remind your disciples, the people in your congregation about the message from Sunday to be encouraged throughout the week, to continue to take steps more and more in their faith, to look more and more like Jesus and to reach those around us who maybe have not yet found the hope of Jesus, but can find that through the body and work of a local church. And you are directly in the intersection of that. Whatever your role is, pastor, youth pastor, digital specialist, church communications person, excited to have you with us on the journey.

Nick Clason (20:02):
We clip up little, uh, clips of these every single episode and drop 'em onto my personal TikTok at Cliff and Nicki can grab the link there in the show notes. Uh, we will have transcripts for this episode at http://hybridministry.xyz wherever you listen to this on whatever podcast platform catcher. Glad to have you with us. Glad you're listening in your ear holes. If you found this helpful, would you rate it, leave a comment, and maybe share with the, so that they also can, uh, learn about the importance people around. And we will talk to you next time. Stay Hybrid.

Episode 029: Is Digital a Valid method to Preach God's Word?

Nick Clason — Thu, 02 Feb 2023 04:00:00 -0600

In this episode, Nick takes his listeners on a journey through his deep dive on asking the question "Is Digital a valid method to preach God's word to the world?" He explores what preaching is, the ways in which God has spoken over the years, the purpose of the church and then ultimately gives a conclusion!

SHOWNOTES
For all things Hybrid Ministry head to http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Hangout with Nick:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g
https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick

FREE E-Book: "Have I already Ruined my TikTok Account?"
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook

The Best YouTube strategy for 2023 and Beyond!
https://www.hybridministry.xyz/021

TIMECODES
00:00-03:16 Intro
03:16-05:04 The Theology of Preaching
05:04-09:17 The high calling of being a preacher of God's Word
09:17-10:30 God has chosen to speak
10:30-13:58 God has chosen surrogate voices
13:58-18:45 What is preaching?
18:45-30:47 The purpose of the Church
30:47-37:31 Can you share the message of Jesus online?
37:31-38:47 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
Well, hey there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be here with you. And I just wanted to invite you, if you have not yet, check out our website http://www.hybridministry.xyz. If you didn't know, we have complete show transcripts that we have created a hundred percent just for you. Um, those are a hundred percent free for you. They're not free to produce, but they are a free gift that we do for every single episode. So if you're like me, where you probably are listening while you're driving or running or exercising or cooking or biking, and then you hear something and you want to, uh, recall it or write it down or take a note or quote or something like that, you can do that through the transcripts. Now, full disclosure, the transcripts are AI and automated automatically generated.

Nick Clason (00:57):
And so sometimes they're not the most reliably transcribed, but they are still a good tool and you usually be able to figure out and get to the right place. with those other thing I wanna invite you to do is if you have not yet checked out our 100% free ebook that we created, called Have I Ruined My Church's TikTok account just yet? You know, there's a lot of speculation, um, and maybe worry when you log onto TikTok, like, am I doing this right? Is this how this is supposed to look? Did I do this thing wrong? And I just wanna encourage you to grab this ebook, and the answer is probably no. Um, but we'll help you, we'll help you, uh, take your first step post your first TikTok, because the world of vertical and short form video content is not going anywhere.

Nick Clason (01:51):
Um, in fact, it is so saturated in all of the major markets, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, that for the first time in a very long time, you can post identical content on all four of those platforms. And they will not ding you, they will not take away because you're posting something that was built for another platform while short form and vertical video content was made popular by TikTok. The other platforms are all trying to chase that down and bring that this discovery algorithm into their framework. And so they are Fran frantically trying to make that a reality and trying to make that happen. And so, um, the church has a unique opportunity to not only grow on social media, but take a medium and a platform that prioritizes this, uh, short form video content speaking directly into a camera. Um, which is something that the church has the ability to do quite easily.

Nick Clason (02:52):
Like if you think about it in the past, right? Uh, churches would have, uh, so like have to figure out a way to make graphics, figure out a way to have to get photographers. But now a pastor is actually probably someone who's pretty well versed in communicating to people, and that's what is happening in these short form video, uh, pieces of content. And so it's a really unique, um, and really unprecedented time in the church. So, with all that being said, excited to have you today. Today I want to talk about the theology of preaching. Now, you might be thinking this is not a digital topic. And the reason that I think it's a digital topic is because I think that, um, the teacher, the preacher has, um, the ability and perhaps even responsibility to use social media to spread and share the message of Jesus.

Nick Clason (03:46):
Um, and so the reason I wanted to do this deep dive into preaching is because I wanted to make sure that as I read through an examined different sections and pieces of the New Testament, that I was not speaking out of turn, um, and saying something that, uh, was not theologically accurate, you know, in the land of, well, per like, I guess the anticipated argument, and, and in fairness, I haven't really heard this from anybody, but I wanted to make sure that I, um, wasn't saying something that was not a hundred percent biblically or theologically true. Because again, like I said, I haven't said it yet, but I've circled around this idea. My anticipated idea or anticipated argument was that people might say preaching has to take place in the fabric and context of local church and local community. And so I wanted to examine cuz I wasn't sure that that's actually what was said, um, in the New Testament.

Nick Clason (04:50):
And so I wanted, but I wanted to see it for myself. Obviously, I wanted to look at the text and I didn't wanna just go off what I thought or believed or, um, was mostly sure to be true. So let's take a look at the Theology of preaching. So in 1980, a book called Biblical Preaching came out by Hadden Robinson. That was, that was my, um, textbook for, I believe it was Homiletics. Um, which homiletics is the actual, uh, practice or act of delivering a sermon. And so I went to that book, um, and the book is very much a, uh, pro dispositional preaching style verse by verse type of thing. And so he's, he's really building that case the entire way through. And so there's, you know, there's, um, a couple of introductory ideas in the first chapter about what is preaching. Um, but then after that it really dives into the, the ex dispositional side of things and how, how you should focus on that.

Nick Clason (05:58):
But one of the quotes that I found interesting that Hadden Robinson said was he said, Hey, one should think twice and twice again before nominating himself to that company of preachers. And, um, obviously, um, he's borrowing that from James chapter three, verse one, where James writes, dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church for me, or sorry, for we who teach will be judged more strictly this, this responsibility of, um, standing in the gap between God who has a message and his people as a preacher or as a prophet as they were in the Old Testament. That is a high responsibility, and those people are going to be judged more harshly. And so Robinson is saying you should think twice and maybe twice again before you, uh, attempt to step into this. It's not just something about glamorous, not just something about, um, you know, like being known noticed, like this is a really high calling.

Nick Clason (07:00):
And so I think that it's really important for whoever is listening to this, whether if you're like a social media manager and you are a person on camera a lot, or if you're pulling, um, audio clips or video clips from your pastor's sermons, the the fact remains the same that whoever that person is, and then if, if you are an actual pastor who's doing the, the recording, you will be judged more harshly. So, so take that responsibility for what it is worth, right? Like, it's very important. Matthew Simpson, um, he wrote this. He said, his throne is the pulpit, and he talking about the preacher stands in Christ's stead. His message is the word of God around him are immortal souls. The savior unseen is beside him. The Holy Spirit broods over the congregation, angels gaze upon the scene in heaven, and hell await the issue, await the sermon.

Nick Clason (08:00):
And so, uh, same thing, right? Like it's just talking about the, the priority. It's talking about the the level of weight that is on whoever is preaching. All right? And so, uh, I will, uh, throw, uh, a lot of notes, um, a lot of links into the show notes. I'll throw Had and Robinson's, um, link to that book if you wanna check that out. Um, I also found a bunch of articles online that I found pretty helpful. Um, one was from a ministry magazine article. And, um, I just wanna give you a couple of the highlights from that magazine that talk about the importance of preaching. Again, in almost all of these articles are almost all these books, the assumption is that preaching is done in a physical context behind a physical pulpit to a physical congregation. And by no means am I trying to build or make a case that says that that should go away, okay?

Nick Clason (08:51):
But what I am trying to build and make a case and open a door for is can preaching or can sharing the message of Jesus, can that also be done using different methods and mediums, such as an online medium, uh, like short form, video content, YouTube, TikTok, whatever the case might be. All right? So here's some of the high, uh, high level takeaways from this Ministry magazine article about preaching. All right? So the first thing at a very basic foundational level is this, is that God has chosen to speak. We see in Genesis chapter one, 10 different times it was recorded, it says, God said, we also see five different times in that same chapter of Genesis chapter one, that God called and so to God, words are very important. In fact, his entire creation was speaking. And then the thing, existing plants, animals, light, darkness, day, night, moon, stars, sun, all of that was given to us by the voice and word of God to God, words and breath and speaking, it matters, and it plays an, a pretty important role in the narrative of human history.

Nick Clason (10:08):
Furthermore, uh, God breathed into Adam and gave him his life. And Psalm 33, 6 says, by the word of the Lord, the heavens were made, the host of them and the breath of his mouth. And so, God, there is a very important and, and critical role in the fact that God has even chosen to speak. So God's chosen to speak. God has also called for surrogate voices to, to speak on his behalf. Preaching by the prophets was a, a way of warning the people to get their act together or to, to watch out for some sort of impending judgment that was going to happen because they had not been obeyed. See, God is love, and he's giving all, um, opportunity for mankind to experience and come to salvation. One Timothy chapter two, verse four says, who wants God? Who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth?

Nick Clason (11:08):
Romans 10 13 through 16 says this. It says, so everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But how can they call on, on him to save him unless they believe in him? How can they believe in him if they've never heard about him? How can they hear about him unless someone tells them? And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? So that's why the scripture says, how beautiful are the feet of the messengers who bring the good news? But not everyone who welcomes the good news for Isaiah, the prophet said, Lord, who has believed our message? See, there's power in the words. There's power in being saved through the words. And God has a desire for humans to come to that understanding. The, the, the reality is this, is that the, the power comes from you and my and your preacher or whoever.

Nick Clason (12:00):
The power comes from that person's individual life. It's about the words that are said, but there's power and weight behind it. If there's authority, integrity, um, if, if, if the message is coming from the overflow of somebody's heart, of somebody's life, this, this message is not just about saying the message, right? There's obviously that, that verse where Paul says, uh, even if despite how the gospel is being preached, I rejoice because even if it's in vain, or even if it's not good or whatever, like it is still being preached. And that's true. But the, the more connected you and I and your pastor are connected to the vine, John chapter 15, if, uh, we are connected to the vine, you're reminded that Jesus says, um, apart from me, you can do nothing. Ian Bounds has a quote that says, the sermon is made in the closet.

Nick Clason (12:59):
The man, God's man is made in the closet. And so then at that point, you and I get to take this idea from Romans chapter 10 or for Timothy chapter two, um, and share it with other people. God desires for all men to come to an understanding. We, we get to be the feet that carry the message to the people who have not heard. How sweet are the feet of those who carry that message, however, is the person's personal life is our personal life, is our heart, is we have the gut check in place because it's really easy on social media, it's really easy on TikTok to get vanity metrics and vanity views and feel like we're actually doing something when in reality we maybe aren't doing anything and we're chasing after selfish gain or selfish motive. So like Ian Bound says, the real sermon, the real is made in his private life in a closet.

Nick Clason (13:59):
All right, so I got some more articles. Um, what is is preaching, um, I, I, I searched what is preaching, and a quote from, uh, thabiti on Yawe says this. He says, preaching is God speaking in the power of his spirit, about his son from his word through a man. Thessalonians chapter one verse form five says four, we know brothers loved by God that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. First Thessalonians two 13. And we also thank God continually because when you receive the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it as it actually is the word of God. God himself spoke through Paul's preaching, which is at, which is at work in you who believe power is in the word. Um, and also in the messenger, right?

Nick Clason (14:59):
First Peter, chapter four, 10 through 11, each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others faithfully, faithfully, admonishing God's grace in its various forms. And if anyone speaks, you should do so as one speaking the very words of God. And then Matthew chapter 10, verse 19 through 20, when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. Cuz at that time, you'll be given what to say for it will not be you, uh, speaking, but it will be the spirit of your, uh, father speaking through you had Robinson Hadden. Robinson says this, he says, preach means to cry out Harold or exhort, second Timothy, chapter four, verse two. So preaching should so stir a man that he pours out the message with passion and fervor. See, scripture already has authority. And so Robinson's argument, right, like I was saying, is one for expository preaching, which obviously he's speaking and writing this with a mindset of, uh, really I feel like he's arguing expository versus, uh, like topical or whatever.

Nick Clason (16:10):
And he's also arguing it with the assumption that this is taking place within the context of a local church with a pastor who's standing behind a pulpit who has the word of God open in front of him, and he's preaching out of it. And he's saying that the authority comes from the word of God. And so if we're going to take that and transfer this to a digital format, the same is true. You see, it's really easy, especially on TikTok. It's all about quick and the hook and about capturing attention. And I think those things are true. And by the way, those things are still true for live preaching in the room sermons, um, capturing people's attention, making sure it's relevant, taking what is true in God's word, and also making it true in their life or relevant in their life. However, the authority, the intersection there between, uh, the word of God and the relevancy, um, of the, of, uh, the message, the intersection of that needs to be God's word.

Nick Clason (17:01):
That is where the authority falls and comes from. All right, so back to Robinson, right? An expository definition. Um, he says this, he says, so, so the passage, uh, governs the sermon. The expository communicates a concept. The concept then comes from the text. The concept is applied to the expository. And then, um, the concept is then applied to the hearer. Okay? And so oftentimes a complaint about expository preaching is that it's not very relatable, it's boring, it's dry. Okay? Check out this quote from Robinson. I found it incredibly eye-opening, especially as I'm doing this research in light of, can this be a digital means a digital format? He said, seldom do normal people lose sleep over the, the jutes, the Canaanites or the, the parasites. Uh, or even about what Abraham, Moses or Paul had said or done. He said, what they do lie awake, wondering is about grocery prices, crop failures, corals with a girlfriend, the diagnosis of malignancy, of frustrating sex life, the rat race where the rat only seems to ever win.

Nick Clason (18:10):
So if a sermon does not make much difference in that world, they wonder if it makes any difference at all. And I would say, and I would make the argument that the same is true if you're going to try and preach and share the message of hope of Jesus online, cuz people are, are not scrolling through TikTok worried about the JB besides Canaanite pairs, that's Abraham, Moses, or Paul. But what they will care about is when you can take those things and make them relevant and apply them back over to the worries, the frustrations, the day-to-day life, things that are causing them concern.

Nick Clason (18:47):
So all of that is about preaching. All of that is about good fact that God chose to speak, he uses surrogate voices and preaching must inspire, um, and be relevant for people, uh, to take the message and apply it back over to their lives. The question then is, what is the role of preaching in the church? And is preaching an exclusive thing that can only happen in the context of a local church body, right? Then that would be, that would be, um, pretty important to, to figure out, um, especially in light of, of this argument. And, you know, in a lot of cases, I, I feel as though my audience, and if this isn't you, that's obviously fine. You're obviously welcome here. You can, can learn and from what we're talking about, but I feel in a lot of ways my audience is aimed at a person who is already in a local church, um, who's working for a local church and who's already seeing a lot of these things sort of like happening and take place.

Nick Clason (19:48):
The question I have then is, what is the purpose of the local church? You know, we went into that a little bit in the last episode, so I'll drop the link to that in the show notes. Uh, I also then looked up, um, an article I found on, um, desiring god.org, which is John Piper's website, and he has seven qualifications for the church. So he has seven qualifications and a averse or two that sort of like, uh, support it. And so I also look those verses up and I'm gonna read those verses when I'm done, um, so that you understand where he's getting his, his basis for. So he's, he's making a statement, um, and tying it to a, a scripture. And I'm gonna read the actual scripture so that you hear that scripture, um, as well, not just like the reference to, okay, so the first thing that he says, he says that people must give evidence in the remember, uh, the basis for local church.

Nick Clason (20:39):
Um, so number one basis for a local church, or what is a local church, that people must give evidence that they are believers, that they, they trust Jesus as their savior and Lord, the New Testament makes it very clear that we are adopted into the family of God through our faith. And that comes from John chapter one, verse 12 and 13, but to all who believe him and accept him, he gave the right to become children of God. They're reborn not with physical birth resulting from human passion or pl or a plan, but a birth that comes from God. The second basis, the second qualification of a local church is that people must be baptized. Jesus commanded a Matthew chapter 28, verse 19, that the way to make disciples was to baptize them and to teach them. And this was the uniform practice in the early church.

Nick Clason (21:21):
Matthew 28 19 says, therefore, go make disciples of all nations, baptiz them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The third basis for the local church is that there must be a regular assembly. A group of people who only came together, say once a year, could not rightly be called a local church because they are a central activities of the church, which lose their meaning when not done corporately. So therefore, Hebrews 10 25 commands us not to neglect meeting together to hear. Hebrews 10 25 says this, let us not neglect our meeting together as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near. Uh, just a quick pause here. I would say in a lot of ways, I think the gathering together, um, a lot of it is not, um, at this point in 2023, is not necessarily for information transfer.

Nick Clason (22:11):
I think, um, that that has been solved through means like podcasting and YouTube videos and, um, people can even listen to worship music on Spotify. Now, I think one of the major factors of the local church is for this is for encouragement. I think that life is hard. I think that people are lonely. And I think that coming together in a gathering, in a regular gathering is for encouragement. Um, that complicates things a little bit when most churches gather together to sit down in rows and look ahead and watch a person talk for a half an hour. And I think that's where I can make the argument that you can take that same content that you're delivering in a 30 minute sermon and distribute it and disseminate it out online. You can also do it in that format. But I think that there should be something meaningful there for the regular assembly, that there should be some sort of encouragement.

Nick Clason (23:04):
A lot of churches have Sunday school classes or small groups that meet to do that and to fill that, to fulfill that function. And I just think that, um, we have made that a second tier priority, um, in the church. And I think in 2023 and beyond, with information and all-time high and an all-time level of availability, I think that what people really want and need and are looking for is that encouragement. So I'll continue going on. Uh, the fourth marker of a local church is, it says, among these meetings, there must be, um, gathering for worship. This follows inevitably from the ultimate value placed on Jesus Christ who calls us together from our rela uh, relation to God. Through him, the church is destined to live, uh, to the praise of God's glory. Ephesians chapter one, verse six, 12 and 14, and therefore, it will contradict our nature not to assemble for worship.

Nick Clason (24:00):
Um, acts chapter two, uh, 47, and then Romans 15, six through seven. So Ephesians 1, 6, 12, and 14 says, so we praise God for the glorious grace that he has poured out on us who belonged to his dear son. Verse 12, God's purpose was that we, Jews who are the first to trust Christ would bring praise and glory to God. And verse 14, the spirit of God's guarantee that he will give us inheritance. He promised that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so that we would praise and glorify him. So because of what he did right, we would, we would as a result, praise and glorify him. And, and because of that, then Piper is making the argument that that's the church should be, um, built on worship and adoration and, and praise of God. Acts chapter two verse, uh, acts 2 20 47.

Nick Clason (24:50):
Acts 2 47 says, all while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people, and each day the Lord added to their fellowship, those who are being saved, Romans 15, six and seven, then all of you can join together with one voice giving praise and glory to God the father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept each other just as Christ has accepted you, so that God will be given all the glory. The fifth marker of the church. Our meetings must include exhortation from the word of God, right? This is pay attentional to this one. This is really what this entire podcast is centered on. Um, we were born and new through the living and abiding and the word of God, first Peter 1 23. And our life in Christ is preserved not by bread alone, but by every word that precedes out of the mouth of God.

Nick Clason (25:35):
Matthew four, four, the shepherds of the church are the provision that God has made for feeding his sheep. Therefore, we strive not to be the church where the word of God is neglected. First Peter one twenty three, for you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal living word of God. Matthew four, four, Jesus told Satan, no, the scriptures say, please people or not, not please people do not live on bread alone, but by every word that precedes out of the mouth of God. Um, I do think that God has put pastors and shepherds in place to help feed his sheep, but I think that that really the role and mission of the church is, um, as Paul says in Ephesians is, is to equip the saints for works and acts of service.

Nick Clason (26:17):
And so I think in a lot of ways also it says in, I can't remember, I didn't write this one down first or second Peter, that we have everything we need for life and godliness, where a priesthood of all believers. And so people who believe in God should be given the tools to feed themselves to grow in their own faith on their own. And so, yes, I believe that you should gather together to hear a preacher who's poured over a week and remember the, the, the, the power from the word of God comes from the private, private life of the preacher, all that. However, I think the preacher should also be not just teaching the person, uh, like giving them a fish, right? But teaching them how to fish so that they can have that lifetime of learning. And we have, and I think that that a lot, a lot of that learning, um, with that requires some discernment.

Nick Clason (27:00):
Like especially with so much out there, social media, articles, whatever the case might be. Uh, I think the, one of the main things that needs to take place is discernment. Like how do you know if you believe this? If, if this article you're reading lines up matches up with your belief in God and if your, and if it lines up with what the Bible actually has to say. So how do you take what the Bible has to say and and weigh that and measure that against what you're reading, what you're consuming, what you're listening to. So, uh, I'll continue on number six, along with worship and the exoration, we must celebrate in the Lord's supper in order to be the church. We're committed to do this in remembrance of Christ. Luke 2219 and first Corinthians 11, four, neglecting this ordinance might seem, uh, inconsequential at first, but I think a church will bleed to death through the amputation.

Nick Clason (27:49):
Luke 2219 says, then Jesus took some bread, gave thanks to God, broke it in in pieces, and he gave it to his disciples saying, this is my body which is given to you. Do this in remembrance of me, first Corinthians 1124, and give, and gave thanks to God for it. Then he broke it in pieces and said, this is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. This is a gigantic argument for the importance of physical gathering. You, you really cannot partake in the Lord's supper together as a, as a body of Christ without a physical gathering together. You can, um, church has that before, took communion every single week. And so as a part of their online experience, they would encourage people to grab crackers and juice and do it in their homes. And we did that during Covid cuz that was required necessary.

Nick Clason (28:30):
But I think that there's something about doing it in a communal way. Again, I would not, I would argue though, that like when we're sitting in rows and the pastor comes out on stage and leads everyone through communion, I, I don't know that that's really communal, like you're together. But is that actually what he was just talking about there? And that's where, that's where I think the, the, the 21st century American breakdown from church is a has been away from family and more towards a theater or observatory way of church. And that's what I'm saying, encouragement and communal and all these things that, that do happen within the context of a physical church gathering. I do think that it's, it's not actually being played out that way. So you can make that argument like, well, yeah, you need to be together and whatever, but like when I'm sitting in a row, shoulder to shoulder and staring at the back of someone's head, I'm not really getting to know them, not really doing that thing that way.

Nick Clason (29:22):
Um, that's just how we have come to land here out of, out of history. Like historically this, we've been doing it this way, so we're doing it this way again, as opposed to like really, like I said, leaning into less on the information side cuz information's now much more available, but more leaning more into the relational side. Last thing, um, from Piper's article, finally, all of this must take place with the, with the guidance of duly appointed leaders. Paul appointed elders in all churches, acts 1423. He gave instructions about the qualifications of deacons and elders in first Timothy three and tied this one. Full disclosure, I did not write those out, so you can go check those out on your own if you want. And he said that Christ had given pastors teachers to the church to equip the saints for ministry. Ephesians four, one through 12.

Nick Clason (30:13):
I referenced that earlier. Uh, there have always been disagreements about what to call these leaders and how to organize them, but they must be present in a group in order for that group to be a church. Historic Christianity has always affirmed this. So Acts 14, Palm Barnabas also appointed elders in every church with prayer and fasting. They turn the elders over to the care of the Lord in whom they'd put their trust. And then Ephesians for one through 12, therefore I prisoner for serving the Lord beg you to lead a life worthy of your calling. You've been called by God and their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and to build up the church, the body of Christ.

Nick Clason (30:50):
All right, so with all that, with all those different pieces of, of writing and articles and excerpts from books, what's the conclusion? So what I believe very strongly is that the church is God's plan, a for redeeming his people. Matthew chapter 16, Caesarea Philippi upon Peter's proclamation that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus says upon this, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And so, uh, not only is the church going to be successful, but also it is God's plan, a for bringing about redemption and restoration to his people. I also believe that the church should include as Piper laid out elements of worship and teaching. And as I said in the last podcast, living out the one another's, he said it in one of his points about the importance of encouragement of meeting together.

Nick Clason (31:51):
I think that there's a, like I said earlier, and I did a little sidebar, uh, earlier, I think there's a lot more there and I think there's a lot more opportunity for the church to be more encouraging in lifting up one another. And so I think it's, I think it's ultimately God's desire that everyone comes to a knowledge of salvation of him. And I also believe, and I, and I see it pretty clearly, that it's Jesus' command for us to go and make disciples teaching them. And and I think that's probably done through the context of community. Now, like I said, I think we can get it twisted and say when we're sitting in rows, the way that the church has been set up for, for a century or longer now, that that's community because we're in the room together. And I don't actually think that that's the most effective form of community.

Nick Clason (32:43):
And I think most pastors would say that's not the most effective form of community. However, no one has really tried to break that. Um, and if they do, they're often considered sort of like hippies and people just trying to be like super offshoot of Christianity, right? But people who live, um, best in the context of community, people who have committed to a local assembly, a local body, a local acc, the church, um, those people are the ones who then can live out this command from Jesus to both be discipled and to be discipling others, teaching them about the commands of Jesus. And that's not just the pastor's job, it's the pastor's job to help equip set up framework, um, do this under the, the guidance and assembly and all these things. Okay? But in addition to the content from God's word, there's an encouragement of one another that needs to be lived out and needs to be expressed.

Nick Clason (33:40):
And however, I think in addition to all of that, we see Paul and we see Jesus and we see his disciples, like when Jesus sends out the 72, that they have a high level of urgency and priority to go and share the gospel to the people that have not yet heard the message of Jesus. And I do believe that digital vertical, short form video, long form video, audio podcasting, TikTok, is today's opportunity to help go out into the fray infringes to share the message of help found in the gospel. Like, like Paul, right? Almost every one of his letters was written to a church that he was not in physical proximity to. He had a relationship with them, he had met them before, maybe he hadn't, he just heard about 'em in a couple cases. But he sends and uses the, the communication means and effort of his day and age, and he uses it to get in contact with different churches.

Nick Clason (34:44):
And I believe that TikTok is today's opportunity to share the message of hope that's found in the gospel if we're borrowing from the marketing world and looking at like a funnel, right? Like the top of the funnel is the widest, and that's the awareness phase. And then people might move into a consideration phase and then a conversion phase, and then to the fact down in the lowest part of the funnel, um, where they are expressing loyalty. And then finally, they are expressing a advocacy. And I think that the church can, um, follow a similar way. And I think that that TikTok, I think that social media often is a top of the funnel type of thing. I don't know that you are gonna pray with anybody to receive Christ over TikTok. You might, and that'd be an amazing story. But I think in a lot of ways a person is, is hovering around the top of the funnel, gaining an awareness of Jesus, um, and, and maybe even your church, and then moving down that funnel more and more and more until finally I take a step into real live, authentic personal community.

Nick Clason (35:44):
And the church world is very similar. Jesus set up the very same framework, right? Jesus said, um, Hey, explore who I am, where he, where he gives the invitation to Andrew and John, and he says, come and see. And then out of that, he, he allows them to follow him or, or connect with him and with some other disciples. And then he really ch he leans in, he challenges them, goes from following me to, I will make you, I will change you, um, make you into fishes of men. And that's what we see a lot of the growth of them internally. And then finally, the most growth is when he turns and pivots and he says, now it's your job to go and multiply. And that's why we see much joy out of Jesus when the 72 come back, because the 72 is the, the second and third and fourth generation of disciples.

Nick Clason (36:31):
It's not just his disciples, the ones that we know, the ones that are listed, Peter, James, John, Andrew. But it's, it's their disciples, the ones that they've shared the message with. Those 72 go out and they also bear much fruit. That's the framework that Jesus has built up for multiplication. And so, um, we can, as the church, we can lean into that come and see, and that follow me, those entry level places. And in a lot of times those have been set up in physical gatherings in the worship environment. And that is a place where people can come and explore. But I think, um, in today's day and age, they're also doing a lot of that exploration in the palm of their hands, on their phones, on their devices and on their screens. And they're looking at their, at their phones. They're asking questions about, who is this man?

Nick Clason (37:13):
Jesus, what is this you say about faith? And as they're scrolling through TikTok to yes, be entertained and to yes, find another silly video or whatever they're looking for, they might also find something meaningful, something spiritual and something where you can say, Hey, come and see. Hey, listen guys, I hope you found this episode helpful. Uh, it was a deep dive. Um, it was heavy and there was a lot of, uh, scripture and quotes and stuff like that. And so, um, I will post, um, all the links to everything I've done in the show notes. Of course, there's free transcripts and you know what I'll do, I'll include my notes for this, um, in the, the notes as well. So you can get all that over at hybridministry.xyz. Go grab the ebook, go watch the YouTube video and how to post. And um, guys, listen, there is a lost and dying world out there, and that's why this is so important, not for you to get a thousand million hundred views on a TikTok video, but so that people who don't have a relationship with Jesus come to an understanding of a relationship with Jesus.

Nick Clason (38:15):
And maybe just, maybe that's through you giving them an opportunity to explore and open the door. So keep doing what you're doing, blessings on you and your ministry, and we'll talk again.

Episode 028: The Purpose of the Church and Social Media's Role within that

Nick Clason — Thu, 26 Jan 2023 04:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick discusses the purpose of the church, as laid out from Jesus in the Great Commission, as well as the 59 different times the New Testament lays out a "One Another" statement. He then disects and brainstorms different ways in which the church, through a Hybrid and Digital approach, can live out the mission and purpose of the church through some of the One Another statements of the New Testament Church.

Come hang out at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or on TikTok http://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
Or on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g

SHOWNOTES
FREE E-Book: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook
Have I already Ruined my TikTok Account Video: https://youtu.be/oxBn-p9O-eg
The Do's, Don'ts and lessons learned from launching a YouTube channel for your church in 2022: https://www.hybridministry.xyz/018
Atomic Habits: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0735211299/ref=asc_df_0735211299/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312014159412&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8492597528919365054&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9027304&hvtargid=pla-541463258824&psc=1

TIMECODES
00:00-01:31 - Intro
01:31-03:47 - What is the role of the church as a whole?
03:47-11:55 - How the Church should carry out the Great Commission
11:55-15:00 - Build Up
15:00-19:51 - Speaking Truth
19:51-21:42 - Stir Up
21:42-24:24 - 3 Short Form Video Hacks
24:24-26:24 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be here with you today. And if you have not go check out the show notes or head to hybridministry.xyz I'm gonna put a link to it in here, but we just released two things, a brand new YouTube video and a brand new ebook, both which are built to help you post a TikTok from start to finish. It's titled, have I Already Ruined My TikTok Account? And the entire purpose of it is really this understanding that like social media in 2023 is moving a hundred percent towards short form video content, TikTok, Instagram reels, YouTube, short style content. And so are you prepared and equipped to post that type of content? And are you prepared and equipped? Do you know what it takes to, do that?

Nick Clason (00:57):
Um, and have you, if you've ever logged into TikTok, and if you've ever been confused and you're like, what is going on in this place, this video and this ebook are both, uh, guides to help you walk through and navigate how to post something from something that you pre-recorded, or how to, uh, record something natively in the app, how to, uh, jump on trends, how to use audio, personal, um, business accounts, all kinds of different things. And so, uh, like I said, we got the link to that for you here in the show notes. Go check that out. I hope that that's something that you find beneficial and valuable. But in, uh, today's episode, I want, I really wanted to look at what is the purpose and what is the role of social media in the local church? So if we think about it, the purpose of the church, um, I think it was given to us by Jesus.

Nick Clason (01:51):
So I don't think that that changes. I think, you know, churches all have their own mission and vision statements, but I think they all should be derived and come from, uh, the Great Commission, which we find in Matthew chapter 28, verses 18 through 20, where Jesus says, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Again, this is Jesus talking. And he says, so therefore, go and make disciples. That word go is often used for like missionary conferences, like, go, go, go, go to Africa, go to Poland, to go to wherever. Right? But, but really the verb there is not go. The verb is this idea, the word go is better translated like as you are going. And so the verb, the actual verb is to make disciples. So the purpose of every church, every local, uh, church expression, every gathering, every eia, the Greek word of churches, eia, gathering and coming together, a conglomerate of people, um, that are all built and, and focusing on the same general mission, um, is to make disciples.

Nick Clason (02:58):
So as you are, are going, as you are living your life in the places where you live, learn, work and play, make disciples, help people take meaningful, significant steps towards Jesus. Um, teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. He says, and then he, um, says, Baptiz them in the name of the Father, son, holy Spirit. Once they make that decision. And then finally, I will be with you always, even to the very end of the age, Jesus gives us this promise of His presence, this promise that he will not leave us nor forsake us, that he will, as we are taking steps towards him, as we are helping other people make decisions to follow him, um, that people will be, um, that, that he will choose and will be with us to the very end of the age. So that is the purpose of the church as given to us by Jesus himself.

Nick Clason (03:48):
So then if, if the purpose of the church is to go and make disciples, the avenue or the venue with which Jesus lays out for us to do that is, I believe, best to be done in and through the context of his local church. And so I think that, um, what has happened is if we look back into a little bit of church history, which this is not intended to be like a church history podcast, nor am I that well versed in that topic anyway, but the, the, we all know, if we look back to like the Book of Acts and some of the early church, like the church was much more like a family. And now I feel like in America, north America, um, because of Western influence, the church is much more operated like a corporation, less, like, less like a family. So more corporation, less family.

Nick Clason (04:44):
And so social media, um, oftentimes is the marketing arm of this corporate entity that we're all living in and experiencing. And so social media's role often is an awareness. Um, role is often a role on helping people, um, learn about, have brand recognition and awareness of the church. It's all about color schemes and guides and branding and fonts. And, and listen, like as a, as a marketer at heart, like I'm, you know, I'm a youth pastor, right? But like, I, I'm obviously interested in this topic of marketing and stuff like that. So as a marketer at heart, I don't mind those things. In fact, I actually, I appreciate them. I understand what we're doing and, you know, with those things. So with that being said, right, like what, what is the role of social media in a gathering? Is it to help, uh, draw family together, right?

Nick Clason (05:40):
If we're gonna go off the old, uh, new Testament example, um, and framework, or is it to bring brand recognition and awareness, um, the role of the church to make disciples to do that in the context of a of gathering of a family. Um, where, where do we get our basis for what church is? You know, if we look through the New Testament, there's really not a lot of examples of a church built like a business with a c e o, with a head, with a pastor, with a president, with a figure talking head. Um, it's just, that's, that's really not what we see a lot. Instead, what we do see a lot of in the New Testament, right, as we see some of these examples of one another's. Um, so I think one of the best, uh, examples of, uh, what the church can do and what the church should be and what the church should look like is, um, found in the 59 times that we see the phrase one another spelled out in the New Testament.

Nick Clason (06:34):
So for example, we have, um, the command to love one another. We have the command to honor one another from Romans 1210. We have the command to live in harmony with one another, Romans 1216 to build one another up. Romans, uh, 14 for Thessalonians five to be like-minded. Romans chapter 15, to accept one another, Romans 15 to admonish one another. Colossians three, we have care for one another, serve one another, bear one another's burdens, forgive one another, be patient with one another, speak the truth to one another, be kind and compassionate to one another. Speak with Psalms and spiritual songs. Submit to one another, consider one another, look to the interests of others, and finally, stir up, stimulate toward love and good works. And I think most of us would agree that that entire slew of list, that's not even all 59 of them, right?

Nick Clason (07:24):
But the ones that I picked out that I put there on that list, I think most of us would agree that those are best done, or at least most familiarly done and accomplished through, um, being done in person. And so, if we are going to live out the call of the church, then I think, um, you could make an argument. I think some people do, and try to make an argument that the church should be most and best expressed in the context of a family, in person, local gathering type of experience. Okay? Now, just because it's familiar doesn't mean that something different is wrong, okay? And I think if you look at, um, the New Testament, obviously, what is the majority of the New Testament, the majority of the documents right, that we have in our New Testament are letters, letters from the Apostle Paul, letters from James, letters from, uh, Luke, letters, from whoever wrote the book of Hebrews, letters from Peter, letters from John.

Nick Clason (08:33):
And what are these letters? They are written to different churches with what? With the intention to live out these one another's, to admonish one another, to speak truth to one another, to build up one another, to stir up love and good works to one another. And so if those things are the case, um, what was writing in the first century? Well, writing was the means and method to communicate from long distances. Paul was writing to these churches because he was in prison. So he did not have the option to be physically present with them. And I think in a lot of ways, like, so, okay, then like, let's play that out. So yeah, that's what, that's, that was Paul's issue. But our issue, like, we can be together. Yes, that's true, but we also don't live in this very oral, um, slow paced, you know, in the first century, there were no cars.

Nick Clason (09:22):
The main mode of transportation was most likely walking. And so a lot of the, as you are going from Matthew chapter 28, right? A lot of that was probably on the way on the road. Jesus and his disciples probably had so many conversations as they were walking to and from different places in different locations. And so when we think about it, we're like, well, we, yes, we don't have to write letters cause we're not in jail to one another, but we don't live in a culture that really allows us to be together as often as they were in the first century. And I think that we should potentially try to pursue that. I think we should try to make every effort to be living life, um, together, uh, life on life and, um, encouraging one another and moshing another and doing those things in person.

Nick Clason (10:09):
However, I think that distance is still an obstacle, is still, uh, a thing that we experience here, um, in 2023 and beyond. And so, um, the constraints of not being able to physically be together 24 hours a day, seven days a week are real, right? Like, we have jobs, we have families, we have homes, we have sports schedules, we have, um, band practices, we have, um, we have to run our kids to and from all kinds of different things and activities. We have obligations, we have PTO meetings, we have family gatherings that are obligations. We have all kinds of different things that keep us from living life on life with our faith community. And so we should be doing all of these things in person. However, I think that the hybrid side of this is there is a means and a medium that is now available to us that was also available to, um, a a similar means of method that was available in the first century.

Nick Clason (11:07):
Paul used letters. Now I think we can use digital means and digital mediums to get the message of hope across. So let's talk about living out some of these one another that we looked at, right? I want to pick in particular three and, and talk about how those can be lived out in a hybrid world, okay? Because yes, social media can be a good marketing tool, yes, social media can bring a lot of awareness to your church and help get people to your big gathering. But if we're really gonna live out the method of Jesus, which is to make disciples, and then as the New Testament lays out 59 different times to do things with and for, um, one another, okay? Let's look more at the family aspect and think about how we can, um, how we can use social media towards that end. So the first one I wanna look at is build up, build up one another.

Nick Clason (12:01):
What are ways that you can build up the people of God that call your church, um, home, that want to be a part of a, a family and a faith community? How can you encourage them? Maybe you can look down the barrel of a camera and a shotgun microphone and record one video a day, one video a week, and encourage them to keep the faith to make a difference in the world and this sphere of influence that God has placed them in their life. Maybe you can read scripture. I think I don't have this stat very well off the top of my head, but I think it's something like 8% of, um, Christians say they read the Bible on a regular basis. And most people would say that regular means one time a week. Okay? Conversely, they say that Generation Z um, spends anywhere from five to eight hours of screen time per day.

Nick Clason (12:56):
All right? And so, um, that's just one of the generations that we're dealing with. The reality is they're reading scripture once a week versus being on their phone anywhere from five to eight hours per day. What if, while they're on their phones, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Facebook, on any of the social platforms that by the way, are now all promoting short form video content, what if you just read scripture? That's all you had to do. One of my, one of the trends, one of the, um, one of the frameworks that I used in my own ministry that gets some of the most traction is a hook like this where they open the phone and I I'm doing nothing. I'm saying nothing. And all I'm doing is pointing to text on the screen, no words for about 2, 3, 4, 5 seconds. And I'm pointing at the, at the text on the screen, which says either stay or scroll, which is just big and bold, right?

Nick Clason (13:46):
Like that's the whole point. Big, bold. And then right beneath it says, read scripture with me so they know what they're staying for, right? And once you see that, like if you're a Christian, okay, and you see stares scrolling, it says, read scripts with me, you're gonna have this like sort of guttural, visceral reaction. Like, ugh, I probably should stay and not just go onto the next dance video or sports video or whatever other video's gonna be behind it, right? And then just read a verse, one verse and then just riff on it for the remaining 30 seconds that you probably have left. You know, what does it mean? You could, um, promote other spiritual practice. You could help them get into practice of meditating, memorizing scripture, prayer, um, maybe even accountability. Hey, text a friend that you haven't texted in a while, like, do this one another text a friend from your small group who you know, needs encouragement. That's a way to help, uh, through another person, encourage a person in your local body. Um, you could also just deliver some wise words, um, some, some words that come from scripture, some words that come from a wise mentor pastor, somebody who has some age and life experience, but that's just an ex. Those are just a few examples to kinda get your wheels turning of how social media and short form video can be used to help build up the elicia, the gathering, the family of Jesus.

Nick Clason (15:01):
What about speaking truth? Um, obviously you can use sermon clips and we have talked about that ad nauseum, but it's still a worthwhile thing to talk about. If you are live streaming your service, grab a clip of your pastor, cut it down, get it into a 16 by nine framework, put in some sort of hook. If he doesn't have a good hook, use like the voiceover feature or some like big text on screen thing, be like how to navigate conflict. And then boom, cut to the pastor talking, right? If you do not have the technology available to you to, uh, do a sermon clip, um, we've talked in the past, and you can go back to the ultimate YouTube framework. I will, um, put that link here in the show notes. Um, but you can, um, pre-record your messages and you can make that be, um, a thing that you then pull clips from and, uh, give just different quotes.

Nick Clason (15:47):
Uh, 62nd inspirational things from the sermon content. Here's the thing, I'm a pastor, okay? A youth pastor, but a pastor nonetheless. And, um, I, I put a lot of prep into my weekly content that I deliver one time a week to a room full of people, and after that, it goes to die somewhere on my hard drive. But being able to then repurpose this out of your communications department or your digital strategy people, or even if you, it's you the pastor, take your content and put it back out there into the world that you have spent so much time preparing, that's a way to help, um, speak the truth with one another, to the people in your church to remind them of what they heard on the weekend. Maybe they weren't there. Maybe this is a, a primer, a teaser of what the appetite for them to hear a clip of the sermon.

Nick Clason (16:29):
Then they're like, you know what? Maybe I should go listen to that whole thing. Which leads me to the point that if you are, you should have a place for them to go listen to the whole thing, uh, either in full audio form or on a YouTube channel. Again, whether that's your live stream or that's a pre-recorded thing that you are doing, and then posting. Some other examples of speaking truth are sermon quotes, right? You can take just a quote from your pastor sermon and you can create a video out of it, even if it's just like a video of a drone flying over a mountain and then the pastor's quote flies in or a a tweet screenshot or something with some nice music behind it. Um, you can do adjacent type content from the sermon, right? So this month, for example, in our student ministry, we're talking about the, um, sermon series of habits.

Nick Clason (17:13):
Okay? So it's the habit of living in community, the habit of, um, bible reading, prayer, and then accountability. Okay? But what I'm gonna do on social media, and you can go check this out if you want, at our, um, our TikTok, um, it is at Cross Creek Students on Instagram, YouTube, and hopefully TikTok here soon. If you can't find it on TikTok, you might try at first. Colville students, we just changed our name and here's a quick story for you. We just changed our name and I, uh, I secured the handle at Cross Creek students on TikTok, and it said that it has, it has 30 days, um, to totally deactivate your account. So I deactivated and deleted the Cross Creek students account so that I could go from my first Colville account and change it to Cross Creek students, um, because I held it up until the 30 day period.

Nick Clason (18:01):
Um, but I have not been able to switch it over. So everything is Cross Creek students, the new logo, the name, um, and all the other handles are, but that handle specifically is still at first Colville students. I'm looking every single day this week to see if I can change it. If not, I may have to change it to something like first, uh, cross Creek students one. Um, but then once I do that, I have to wait another 30 days before I can make another change. And so I don't know when or if that, um, at Cross Creek students handle will become available. So I don't wanna lock in something temporary and then that handle becomes available, but I'm stuck, you know, for another 30 days. So anyway, um, welcome to the life of someone who's, um, working with these companies, by the way, their support not helpful.

Nick Clason (18:45):
So anyway, um, but the adjacent content that I have written on habits is, um, I just got done reading the book, atomic Habits by James Clear, phenomenal book. Definitely recommend it. I'll put the link to that in the show notes as well. Um, but I am going to share just some, some habit building, um, tips and frameworks, um, general habit building tips. And so that's adjacent content. We're talking about these four disciplines of community prayer, scripture, reading and accountability. And then over here on our social media, we're gonna talk about how habits are built, informed, make 'em easy, make 'em attractive, how to break bad habits, make 'em invisible, make 'em difficult, make 'em, um, something that you don't desire, right? And those two things go together. But this one is a little bit, um, more psychological, not as spiritual necessarily. And this one over here is spiritual. But if you take some of these principles from the Atomic Habits book and some of the other habit building things, you can apply them over to the spiritual habits. Okay? Um, another idea that you can have in speaking the truth is just like a hook. Like, Hey, here's what the Bible has to say about blank. It's a great hook. You're gonna get people start your video off strong.

Nick Clason (19:53):
All right? The third and final one, another I wanna look at is how can we stir up one another? How do we stir up one another toward love and good deeds? Um, you could give them a challenge to think about this. This is what scripture has to say about that. Um, what about, um, toward good deed, you could give them, give them challenges. You could ask 'em to pass along something maybe on like in like a Facebook group, like post a picture of you paying it forward and you do that whole thing at Starbucks line repay for the person behind you, or whatever the case may be. Um, but that just gives a little bit of social proof and a little bit of like camaraderie, like, Hey, we're all in this thing together. And, and better yet, right? Like, you can try to do all that and facilitate all that through social media, but if you can get your pastor from the stage to push that and say, Hey, this week we're all gonna pay it forward.

Nick Clason (20:40):
And then on social media, you're, you're posting, Hey, post a picture of you paying it forward, or, you know, something like, like that. Um, or you get a little, a TikTok video of, of you paying it forward. You have someone just in the passenger seat taking a video of you doing it or someone in your church doing it. And, and you can find a way to grab that and curate that and have them send it to you. Then you can post that and celebrate that. Remember what gets celebrated gets repeated. And so if these are some of the things that you want to do in your church, uh, capture that on video and sell, get that out and celebrate that. Again, we're in this unique time where all the four major players in social media, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, are all in right now, all in on short form video content.

Nick Clason (21:22):
And so for the first time ever, you do not have to create custom content for all four of those things. You can create one video that works for all four, and I have the, the framework to help you create that, post that and repurpose that to those different platforms. Again, Lincoln Bio, how you can get that free ebook or the YouTube video, check that out. Let me give you, um, three short form video hacks that, um, were noticing for 2023 as we're moving ahead. So hack number one is SEO does matter. If you look at TikTok now, especially, they are trying to use it more like a search engine. So just like YouTube was very much like how to this, how to, that. Now TikTok is moving that direction. So think about your videos that way. And so be using things like captions on screen, be using things like, um, hashtags, and then also be thinking about the actual caption that you are writing as you're getting ready to post your, um, your TikTok.

Nick Clason (22:20):
So try to think of search engine type optimization type of words. Another short form video hack you want is you wanna have a good hook, something that's going to stop the scroll. That's why that stay or scroll thing that I explained earlier is such a good hook because it's literally asking people to stay instead of scroll, which is the main behavior that people are doing when they're on social media, especially in a short form video place like reels or shorts or on TikTok. And then finally, um, use cross platform posting, like I said. So go to YouTube shorts. I just started doing that on our own account. Go to reels for both, um, Facebook and Instagram. And then you can duplicate and do dual purposes through your Facebook and Instagram feeds, right? So like, um, your feeds will help, um, if you, if you like, on reels, if you also post a reel to the feed that's going to go out mostly to your church members, to your eia, um, or into your stories, right?

Nick Clason (23:17):
That's another place that's gonna go mostly to your members. If it's on just reels, that's more of a discoverability. So how having people outside your church find you and see you and engage in spiritual practice with you. And so you can, for, again, you can do dual purposes. You can encourage admonish, build up, stir up, um, speak truth to the people in your church, and also offer some of those spiritual guided practices to some people who may not be inside your, your church. It's a unique and amazing opportunity that we have right now as people in 2023 to use the tools, to use the, the means, mediums, and methods of the day to help share the message of hope, to share the gospel with the people of the world, the people in your church, to encourage one another, to build one another up, and to help make them more like Jesus.

Nick Clason (24:09):
So use it. Be a social media user. Don't let it get you. Don't let it suck your soul dry, but use it to share the message of hope of Jesus because he has changed your life and you wanna share that with other people. Hey, thanks again so much for hanging out on this episode. I hope that you found it helpful if you did share it or leave a rating or a review. Both of those things are going to be phenomenally helpful in our indexing and helping get this message out to other people who are, uh, social media managers, church communications specialists, and their churches. Um, we just really want to be a resource to the local church. Um, I believe that the local church is God's Plan A for reaching the world. And so in every way, in everything I can, I wanna just help, um, the, help those people and help, uh, God's people get this message out there to them.

Nick Clason (24:59):
Um, also head to hybridministry.xyz. Um, you can grab that copy of that free ebook link is in the description or on the website there. Um, and, uh, come hang out with me personally on my TikTok. It's @clasonnick, um, c l a s o n n i c K. Um, I'm posting Little Clips, um, from this podcast to my own personal TikTok and I also just try to have some fun on there posting some football content and other fun things that interest me. So just fun place to hang out. Um, and then I also got my YouTube channel, which, um, is gonna be a little hit or miss admittedly. Um, but that is where that, how to post to a TikTok video is going to live. So you can go check that out. That's something that interests you, and we will talk to you all next time. Keep it hybrid people.

Episode 027: Nick's Interview with TikTok superstar, Josh Chasteen

Nick Clason — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick sits down with teacher and TikToker, Josh Chasteen. Mr Chasteen went viral on TikTok a year or so ago, in part because of his early adoption of the platform, his silly and relatable content, but he shares the story and all that's happened since that TikTok went crazy viral. In addition he shares his view and vantage point of what it's like being on TikTok as a grown adult and teacher and connecting and bulding relational inroads with his students.

SHOWNOTES
FREE EBook "Have I already Ruined my TikTok account?" https://www.hybridministry.xyz/articles/ebook
Check out the YouTube Video for that:
https://youtu.be/oxBn-p9O-eg
Follow Josh on TikTok
https://www.tiktok.com/@mr_chasteen101
Follow Nick on TikTok
https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick
For All things Hybrid Ministry
http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TIMECODES
00:00-02:23 Intro
02:23-09:44 How it all Started with Mr Chasteen
09:44-15:00 The TikTok that changed everything
15:00-18:03 What do your family members think of all this craziness?
18:03-22:04 How does TikTok allow you to connect with students for ministry and relationships?
22:04-26:35 The death of curation and content
26:35-27:55 What's the funniest or most fun you've had on TikTok?
27:55-29:47 As a teacher, what's one piece of advice you'd give to pastors or ministry leaders?
29:47-31:26 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I'm your host, Nick Clason. And hey, if you have not already, make sure that you jump into the show notes or head to http://www.hybridministry.xyz to grab your free ebook for how to know if you have already ruined your TikTok account. It is your guide, complete guide from start to finish on how to post a TikTok and how to start flooding your social media with this short form of vertical video content. Short form, vertical video content is here to stay. It is the trend for 2023, and it gives churches and ministries and pastors a significant advantage because you are already creating content within the normal rhythm and scope of your week. So repurpose some of that content. Use it on social media. Literally every single platform, TikTok, Instagram reels, Facebook and YouTube has introduced shorts.

Nick Clason (01:09):
They're all out there begging for this type of content to be on their platform, so don't miss that opportunity. I know specifically in my own context, we just started posting to YouTube shorts and just about every single video has over a thousand views. I think. Not a lot of people are out there using that platform. So we already have like 17, 18 subscribers from posting for four days so far. So it's a pretty unprecedented time. Every platform is in a little bit of a different place in their life cycle. Um, and so go grab that ebook so that you have the resources that you need to make that happen. In today's show, what I'm gonna do is I'm going to introduce you to someone who got on TikTok early, um, and had a, uh, uh, TikTok go completely bonkers viral. He has a crazy story to tell you. It's my friend, uh, Josh Chasteen. Him and I are actually friends from college. He was in my wedding, I was in his wedding. Um, but you may have actually seen him on TikTok if you're on there at all. He's a teacher, he does all kinds of fun teacher type stuff. So I'm excited to bring you this interview and conversation today with my friend Josh. Well, I'm here. Josh. Josh, thanks so much for joining me. How you doing today, bro?

Josh Chasteen (02:30):
Doing good, man. Just got done with basketball practice and, uh, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Nick Clason (02:36):
Yeah, yeah, man. So glad to have you. Good to reconnect too. Um, you know it, I was just talking to you offline for a second about how we, uh, or how I was making this, this ebook, um, and I logged on to grab a screenshot and it was your, like, one of your tos that popped up, and as soon as I saw that I was like, oh, yeah, Josh has this incredible TikTok story. So would you mind just walking us through what happened to you? It was about a year ago at this time, or maybe a little longer. Like what happened? How did it go viral? Like all this crazy stuff, like let us know.

Josh Chasteen (03:11):
Yeah. Well, things really got crazy a year ago, but it actually like dates back to 2019. So like fall of 2019, um, I hear about TikTok sounds fun, people doing dances. I'd never seen it. And so, um, I'm a junior high health teacher. I had six classes throughout the day. And so what I did like, and I just kinda like to do this random stuff where I kind of talk to kids about what's going on before we actually get into like, you know, stuff we're supposed to be doing in class. And so mm-hmm. , I was like, I spent the first five minutes of every bell like just asking them like, Hey, tell me about this TikTok app, you know? And so we're like talking through it. Every bells kind of telling me a little bit about what it is. And, um, so by the end of the day, you know, the kids were kinda like, you should get a TikTok.

Josh Chasteen (03:56):
And so we kind of came up with this plan, like, okay, well how about like, what if every Tuesday I did like TikTok Tuesday, where um, I either do a TikTok with like a group of students or another teacher or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, that's awesome. And so it was like, okay, whatever, you know, day or two goes by. And I'm like, I don't really think about it again. But there was like these, um, two girls that would like come by every day during lunch and they'd be like, Hey, you ready to start your TikTok? We'll help you do it. like, no, go away. I don't wanna do this right now. . And then they just kept coming back and finally I was like, okay, come here. Let's, let's do this. So they downloaded the app on my phone. I'd still never seen a TikTok at this point.

Josh Chasteen (04:32):
Um, and they're like, okay, well let's film one. I'm like, well, what do you do? They're like, well, I don't know, like, what's your favorite song? I'm like, uh, I mean, yeah, by Usher, you know, that's like the ultimate hype song . And so they're like, okay. So they're like, all right, we're just gonna film you doing, I teach health. So they're like, we're just gonna film you doing like the day in life of like a health teacher just do like whatever. So we're doing this like off the wall stuff and we're putting it to Usher Usher's. Yeah. And so they post it. I'm like, okay, cool. Well, everybody, like throughout school that day is just going insane. They're like, Hey, we saw your TikTok, saw you on TikTok. And um, you know, like, so I have had, you know, thousands of students throughout the year mm-hmm. .

Josh Chasteen (05:14):
And so at this time, this is 2019, there's no teachers on TikTok, you know, I'm like the pioneer of teacher TikTok apparently. Yeah. So there's no teachers on there. So like, first of all, like all the students in the school district, you know, like we have about 450 kids per grade. So all the kids at the junior high and the high school, you know, are getting on this. And so it's got a couple thousand views and they're like, you have, TikTok has a couple thousand views. I'm like, is that a lot? Like, I don't really know . And they're like, you have like a thousand followers. I'm like, once again, is that a lot? That doesn't seem like a lot to me. They're like, no, you, that really is. So I'm like, guy,

Nick Clason (05:45):
And this is from that very first one. This

Josh Chasteen (05:47):
Is just the first one. It was like that first day, you know? So I was like, okay. So I like went home that day or maybe the next day and I'm like, let's see what talk's about, I had never even opened it myself. So I'm just like scrolling through and I'm hooked. Like TikTok is like the most addicting thing ever. You can just get stuck like scrolling and it's never ending. And so this is me, I'm just watching this stuff and I'm like, this is pretty funny. And I'm like, I, I think I could like put some of this, these like trending things. I keep seeing these common things, which I'm like, oh, this is like a trend. I'm like, I could put like a teacher spin to this. So I did a couple of those and it was probably like my, I don't know, third or fourth one, um, that like really like blew up.

Josh Chasteen (06:27):
Like I just, they kept getting bigger and I'm getting thousands and thousands of views. Um, there was one that I did about like getting out of a te like canceling a test. And that one got, you know, I don't know how many views it got. It wasn't quite a million, but then I did one that was like, when your principal catches you making tos and it was like me and these two students, we were just filming it and it was like us doing like this at the time, you know, it was like this TikTok, you know, this was like the thing. So we were doing it and then like I stopped it and then I wanted the next clip to be like when this beat dropped like my principal looking at us through the window, like the classroom window. And so my principal, he's very stoic, like just looks like he's always angry, you know?

Josh Chasteen (07:12):
And so he had just come out from bus studios. The end of the day I'm like, I gotta get this like second shot of him looking in the window through my classroom door. And he did not seem like he was in the mood, but I was like, Hey, can I bother you for a second? I just want you to look through the window. I'm just gonna film it and then I just want you to give me your normal face. All you gotta do is look through the window. So he does it. And then, uh, it's great. I post it. The thing went insane. Like it had 50,000 views within like the first two hours. I'm getting all these followers. And uh, people thought it was hilarious. Um, and so it was like crazy. It was like really messing with my mind, you know? Cause I'm like, oh my gosh, I've got all this pressure now I've got this video with a million views.

Josh Chasteen (07:51):
I don't even know how to work the app. Like I still have like students filming it for me. Um, and so I'm like, you know what? I remember waking up one Saturday morning. I'm like, this is too much. It's stressing me out cuz now I have this pressure, like I gotta film more stuff. Um, but the kids were obviously loving it and I just, I'm like, I woke up in the morning, I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore. And I get on Instagram and Instagram I had it set up where if you get messages from people that you don't know, it doesn't like notify me. But I like just saw that I had all these messages and I open up Instagram and it's like, bars, stool sports. We wanna partner with you, we want a licensing deal with this. And it was like all these other random companies that were reaching out to me and I was like, what in the heck?

Josh Chasteen (08:32):
This is insane. And so so they found your TikTok and went and and messaged you on Instagram? Yeah, they were messaging me on, uh, on Instagram. Yeah. Cause my Instagram was connected with it. And so I was like, well I don't know, maybe I can keep this going for a little bit, you know? And, uh, . So I, I don't know, I just kept posting stuff and um, would kind of like see what the common trends were and put a, a teacher spin on it. And um, so I signed like a licensing deal on a couple different tos where it was like, and that kind of gave me more notoriety. Like Barsol, Barsol Sports had one where I canceled a test and it was like they had all the rights to it and there was like no money in it, but it was like it was on their Snapchat and all this stuff.

Josh Chasteen (09:12):
And so it just like started blown up. So I got to like 50,000 followers Yeah. On TikTok. And then Covid Hits and all these other teachers get on TikTok now the market's saturated. Mm-hmm. , I got nothing to film cuz I'm not in school. I don't have my students there giving me ideas and filming for me. And I don't want my wife to be like, you know, Hey will you film this? She doesn't wanna sit there and be like, you know, so you know Andy, so she's like not super into it. So like I kind of went like stagnant there for a while and I don't know, we get back into school in 2020 and I'm like posting some stuff here and there, but it's just kind of like a rough year. Um, you know, cuz it's like we're wearing masks and we're doing different things and the kids were kind of down.

Josh Chasteen (09:55):
And so we were behind cuz we had like been shut down periodically at random dates. So we were like not on schedule. So we had this like test that we were gonna take. It's the hardest test of the year. There was no way my kids were gonna be ready for it. I was not gonna give 'em the test, but I was like trying to make 'em sweat it a little bit. I was like, well maybe I gotta like post something on TikTok. If a pro sports team comments, it'll get you guys out of the test. Like I said, I was not giving it to him, but I had 50,000 followers. I was confident one pro sports team would comment. So, um, I'm like, Hey, let's do this. You know, whatever. Well it's like Tuesday of the week of break the bell rings to go from homeroom to First Bell.

Josh Chasteen (10:30):
I'm like, oh crap, I forgot I was going to, um, post this TikTok, I gotta do it today if I'm gonna do it. So I like pull out my phone in between the bells, put it up there, put jingle bells to it. It's an eight second video. It's just me looking at the camera. I don't say anything. I post the little caption. If a pro sports team comments, then I'll let my students get out of the test. Posted it by fourth Bell. The Detroit Lions had commented, so everybody was rejoicing. I'm like, phew, I don't have to like find another reason to get 'em out of the test . And then by the end of the day, like, you know, I think it'd gotten up to like a million views. Um, the Dallas Mavericks had commented the Seattle Mariners, whatever it was cool. Well, the Lions thing, like were te they were terrible last year, which shout out to the Detroit Lions.

Josh Chasteen (11:14):
They're in playoff contention. They're doing awesome. Dan Camp was doing great , but um, they really got the algorithm going. I think this is really, really sparked it. All of this was like timing things. Mm-hmm. . Um, I posted another TikTok like right around that time, um, about, um, like it's one that I post every December about how kids put off like doing homework until the end of a semester. So I posted that one right after I posted this one. And so they were kind of like working with each other. Um, but the one about getting out of a test, um, the lions were the first to comment. And so that was the one that was at, at the top. And so everybody's just bashing the lions, like he said, a pro sports team, not you guys. The lions suck, you know? So the lions are just getting absolutely obliterated in the comment section because it's like a pro sports team, not the Detroit Lions, but that like sparked the algorithm I'm confident of.

Josh Chasteen (12:08):
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean, and so we're talking millions and millions of views and so now it's popping up on all these other like professional sports teams pages and they're commenting. And I remember being, it was like probably the next night I was at a friend's house. We had a little get together like for Christmas mm-hmm. and uh, I'm like pulling this up. I'm like, whoa, pizza hu commented. I'm like, the NFL just commented. ESPN just commented. I'm like going nuts. And everybody's like, what? You know, we don't know about TikTok. I'm like, this is insane. Everybody's commenting. And so it was up to like 44 million views or whatever like by the weekend. Um, and then it was like everything I was posting was like gold. Like these kids were like, it was the last daybreak. They're like, Hey, can we post a TikTok with you?

Josh Chasteen (12:45):
I'm like, the bell's gonna ring in two minutes. Okay, let's do this and we'll put it to a trending sound. 11 million views. Yeah. Like it was just, everything I was posting was insane. And so it became a whirlwind, like all these local news stations are like interviewing me. ESPN, a producer at ESPN interviewed me is like, we wanna have you live on Sports Center on Saturday. I'm like, is this legit? Like, this doesn't seem real. Um, I get, and I felt like it was just for the dumbest thing. It was an eight second video with me not talking. And so, you know, the Detroit Lions had me up to a game. I was on the field, um, during the Lions Packers game. It was funny. I'm on the field and they're like, Hey, uh, go out in between the quarter, stand in the end zone.

Josh Chasteen (13:24):
We're gonna get a picture of you in the end zone. And um, the Detroit, like their comment was roll out the TV cart. And so I filmed another TikTok where I'm rolling out this big 80 inch tv cuz I'm like, I wanna like let people know the kids got out of a test. The lions commented, let's make a video in response to that about the TV cart. So I emailed all the teachers in the school. I'm like, does anybody have a TV cart? Like one of those old school one, nobody had one except our STEM teacher had an 80 inch flat screen tv. I'm like, this will work. Well, I rolled that out and that blew things up too because people are like, that's a TV cart nowadays, like that 80 inch flat screen. And so, and you're like, no, not really. We don't even have beef .

Josh Chasteen (14:03):
Yeah. So they, uh, they had me up to a game. And so anyway, uh, they had me out on the field in between quarters and um, they said they just wanted to take a picture while they like had me up on the jumbotron, they showed the ESPN clip, they rolled out an old school TV cart like the lions mascot did. And they like gave me like a thousand dollars check, you know? So I'm like, oh my gosh, this is insane. So it was crazy. Like all of these things that happened, like Papa John's is like, we wanna sponsor a pizza party for your students. Pizza Hut sponsored a pizza party for like, my staff. Um, like Instacart just sent like a ton of snacks for all of our students. Like, I mean, it was insane. All of these like little partnerships and all these brands were getting involved and yeah. Uh, I think like 150 to 200 different like brands or, you know, verified creators commented and, you know, even like Luke Combs and Paul Abdul and all these people got involved. So it was insane.

Nick Clason (15:00):
Yeah, man. Yeah. Well I think like, there's a lot in there, but, uh, like you saying you got on in 2019 when it was like the wild, wild West and it was like, yeah, you could go viral in a second. Like, now, one of the disadvantages I would say of TikTok is a, it's becoming a much more saturated market. 2020 pushed a lot of people to it. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so now like you really do have to like, put in a lot of work, you know, to grow, um, on TikTok. And so, you know, whoever's listening, whatever, like you still do it. Um, but every, every social media is going that direction. And it's actually interesting cuz YouTube is trying to replicate it. And I just looked at our YouTube analytics. Today's, I'm recording this on January 2nd. I started posting yesterday. Our church just changed their name yesterday.

Nick Clason (15:48):
So I've been holding off on YouTube to, to align it up with the name change. And so I just started posting shorts and the first three all went up over a thousand. Wow. Um, and I think, so it's like every, every social media is like going all in on these like short form things. But, you know, TikTok is, it, it takes work now. And so you say all that. Um, I'm just curious like what , you know, I know your wife, but people listening don't, like, what's, what's your wife thinking through all of this? Like, is she like rolling her eyes? Like you, this is ridiculous that you're getting all this notoriety? Or does she think it's fun? Like what's the, what's her sort of like, uh, take on the whole thing?

Josh Chasteen (16:26):
Yeah, probably a combination of both. I mean, I think that is fun. Like everywhere we go, you know, people would say something to her. She had friends from California that are messaging her like, this is crazy. Like, I know somebody famous now and she's like, well, you don't know anybody famous. You know me, who's like married to this guy. And you know, anywhere we went, like, we would go out to eat at Red Robin and the hostess is like, Hey, I see you on TikTok. You know, people were always coming up and it was like really just kind of like celebrity status and, um, the thing that she didn't love. So I remember one night we're eating dinner. This is like the week that everything's getting crazy. There's a ring on the doorbell, it's, I don't know, probably seven o'clock at night. And then she comes in, she's like, Hey, um, Fox News is outside. I was like, what? I was like, I'm in my pajamas, like eating dinner.

Nick Clason (17:12):
How did they

Josh Chasteen (17:13):
Even fighting me? I, that's a great question. And I'm like, are you serious? And I like, go up and there's this dude out there in a suit. I was like, Hey. He's like, Hey, we're running this story tonight. Like, uh, that's awesome. Is it cool if we like interview you? I'm like, well, can I like go throw on some pants and like ? It was just insane. And so she was like bothered by that. Like, now these people are coming to our house. And um, so actually the public relations lady in our school district actually like, took on a lot of the stuff for me. She's like, I will field all these calls and stuff for you. I was like, okay, cool, thank you. Nice, nice. So, um, yeah, but it was, that was pretty funny and I don't know, I mean, it's died down. Like I think that Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, but in that time it was just a little chaotic, uh, in . I don't know. I think she likes it, but at the same time she's just like, Hey, I'm my own person too, you know?

Nick Clason (18:02):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, yeah. I'm not just your wife. Yeah.

Josh Chasteen (18:05):
And

Nick Clason (18:05):
Exactly the other celebrity guy's wife. Yeah. I get that. So, shifting gears a little bit, Josh, like w I remember when you, because like, so I'm in ministry and you're a believer, like you, you love and follow Jesus. And I mean, I was youth pastor and you were one of my volunteers at the first church I worked at. And so, um, but, but even before I, I worked there. I remember when we were in college together, you told me, um, you felt called to like ministry or called to like reach in the next generation. Um, but you told me like I w I feel called to do this in the avenue of like, education through being a teacher because just the amount of exposure and the, the sheer volume and number of students that I'm gonna have an opportunity to reach is greater than just an average like youth pastor. And I just remember you saying that. And so as, as I'm thinking about this from a connecting with students standpoint, talk a little bit about how your TikTok account and presence has allowed you to, um, connect with different students, um, make relational inroads and stuff like that.

Josh Chasteen (19:14):
Yeah. Uh, there's a lot of things there. I mean, I guess the first thing I would say is like, you know, TikTok is not this like, you know, magic potion. If you just get on TikTok, you're gonna have all the students that are, you know? Yeah. So I mean, my big thing is building relationships. Like, um, one of the things, you know, you and I both know Doug Franklin, uh, well mm-hmm. , one of the things he said a couple years ago that I never forget is like, if you want to connect with any student, talk to them about their favorite topic in every student has the same favorite topic. Do you know what it is? Themselves.

Josh Chasteen (19:47):
Themselves. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, I love just like talking to students and like getting to know, Hey, what'd you, this is what I do every class bell. Like, or every, like Monday I spend the first couple minutes of every Monday's class, Hey, what'd you guys do this weekend? Somebody raise your hand. Tell me what you did on Friday. Yeah. What are you guys doing this weekend? You know? And then like gathering information and then it's like I get to know students and then talking about that, Hey, you're really into this. How's this been going? How's that? And like the kids, like, now that I've been in this for a while, like really remember that mm-hmm. and it's like, um, you know, I get letters and stuff written back and things where it's like, you know, you really like cared about every student. And it's just like, I don't know that I really went above and beyond other than just like getting to know them.

Josh Chasteen (20:29):
And I think that like in my field, in, in any field, even youth ministry, it's easy to like, Hey, here's the tasks I have to do. I have to do this, this, this, this. Mm-hmm. . And we miss like, the whole relational aspect in it. And it's really about like people and like loving people and getting to know them. And so, um, so first of all, I think that that's like a strong suit of mine is just being able to connect with kids. The TikTok thing has helped, but I could see how it could also hinder, there's this word out there that kids use cringe. Okay. So , you, uh, there's this tough balance where it's like, yeah, I want to put stuff out there that's funny, but I don't want to be cringey. And it's really hard. Yeah. Um, so like, that's why I'm like, you gotta be yourself.

Josh Chasteen (21:12):
Like, that's the main thing. Like when I try to do, like, see things that are funny that other people do and I do it, it comes across as cringey. So like, you have to be authentic. Like if you're funny, be funny. If you're not funny, don't try to be funny, you know? I don't know. That's good. So, um, there's that. And I think that, uh, for the most part I've stayed out of it. And the ones, the videos that have done really well are like, where I'm like just looking at a camera and I have a caption that's like trying to get people to respond to stuff. Mm-hmm. or like, I am being like overly nerdy where it's like, I'm not trying to be cool, I'm just Yeah. Being stupid. And that's like the point of the video. Yeah. So, um, you know, I don't know, I'm trying to remember like what your original question was. Like how do you use TikTok to reach more people? Um, you know, I think that, I don't think it's like the number one thing, but I think it's supplemental to like what's already being done. Mm-hmm. .

Nick Clason (22:04):
No, that's good. I mean, like, really the whole premise of, of this podcast for me is like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of like, digital opportunities for us, you know? Um, and I think that at least some of the ministries I've been in, especially where I came from, like, uh, I, when I moved there, COVID was happening mm-hmm. immediately. And so as we were kind of finding our way out of it, we had pivoted pretty hard into a really like, big, like, digital strategy. And so as, as things were starting to sort of settle down, things were starting to come back, there was this really big argument between like in person or digital and it was pivoted against itself. Like it's either all in person or it's either all digital. And I just think that there's, there's more nuance to it, and it, that's where the idea of this hybrid comes in because you're a real teacher with real human students and real human relationships.

Nick Clason (22:56):
So you have that already going. And I think most people listening to this, if you're a ministry leader of some sort, like you're gonna have that with your students or your congregation or whatever, but you can still kind of show up, um, and use some of these other tools to, to be present, you know? And yeah. And you're, as a teacher, it's, it's different than, you know, like someone who's in in ministry. Cause you're trying to like, actually like share the message of Jesus and stuff like that. You're probably gonna get in trouble for things like that, you know, but, but because you, uh, have that kind of presence, I think it probably, like you said, as fun, you got students who are like, let's do this thing. Like let's download it. And I know I've had experiences where, like I post a lot of the tos on my ministry account, but I'll have, I'll have students who are like, we need to do this trend.

Nick Clason (23:42):
And I'm like, all right, do like, let's do it right now. Like, let's make it happen. Um, and I told them, I remember last year I told them I thought it was stupid and I told 'em all the reasons why it wasn't gonna work, but then by that night they're both like, screenshotting me, like our account. They're like, this is the number one video on our TikTok account because like, they just know better than I'm going to know. You know? Like, yeah. And so that's, I think that's another principle too in your story is like lean into what, like the knowledge that students have, like use them, get them on screen if it, if you're like, allowed to insurance wise and whatever and whatnot. And so, um, that's just, that's sort of the, the thing I love about, like your story is that you are doing this in a mini, like, not ministry, not for ministry, right. But like, it helps sort of aid in their relationships and stuff that, that are going on, um, with you being a teacher, people seeing you, you know, when they're on the bus or at home or, you know, whatever the case might be. Yeah. So

Josh Chasteen (24:41):
It's pretty cool. And I would say too, like, you know, you talked about how it like takes some work and stuff like that. I kind of prided myself on like, I'm not putting a lot of effort into this. Like yeah, I don't own a ring light, I have no editing apps. Um, yeah, I filmed everything on an iPhone seven up until like, the one went insane last year. And then like my camera kind of went out and I actually, I did my e s ESPN interview on FaceTime on my iPhone seven. Uh, but I made a little bit of money, so I'm like, all right, I'll buy a new phone, put it into this. So up until then, I mean, I, I, and even still I, um, don't really have a lot of this stuff, but all that to say is there was like a brief moment, like when I officially blew up, or like first initially is what I meant to say initially blew up that I was like, okay, I gotta keep trying to pump out content and do all this stuff. And it was like, those videos always did really poorly when I tried really hard mm-hmm. . But it's like, when I'm just me and doing things that I love and make videos that are fun to me to make, then those are usually the ones that do well. I think it translates.

Nick Clason (25:40):
No, that's, that's really good feedback too, right? Like, you have almo like to whoever's listening, you have all the tools probably already in your pocket. You don't have to go get a bunch of gear, you don't have to go learn a bunch of new skills. And it, as TikTok has gotten bigger, like there, it has more and more power now too. You know, you can edit more, you can add more effects, you can do all sort of stuff. And so you don't have to get crazy. And that's, that's a thing. I think social media's really just like leveling the playing field. It's like, Hey, everything's about video. You can post, hold up a video and talk directly into it. Do a funny thing, do a trend, and boom, all of a sudden like you're, you're there. Like, you don't have to learn a new skill.

Nick Clason (26:19):
You don't have to go to school for graphic design. You know, I even, I even think about when you and I went to college together, I wonder how many of those people that have like, video degrees or graphic design degrees, like how much of that's like obsolete now, you know, because Right. So many, so many tools are out there. So, alright. So last thing just real fast, like what's the funniest, uh, TikTok or what's like the one that you're like the most proud of or one that you're like, this was, this was the most fun for me to do, or most fun for me to film? Or funniest trend or what's, what's such like one TikTok that you've done that you're like, this is my favorite and here's why.

Josh Chasteen (26:55):
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think , I don't know, there's so many. Um, it's usually the ones where I get a lot of people involved. Like, so there was one that we did where it was like, um, I don't even remember what the song is, but it's like you show like somebody's yearbook picture and then you show them now mm-hmm. . And so we did one of those with, um, our staff, like maybe that was last year. Like our teaching staff probably like six or seven teachers. Uh, some of my good friends. And so it was like I had 'em bring in their yearbook, I'd show their picture and then I'd show them now. And so, but it's just like fun because it's like the more people that are involved, the more fun it is. Yeah. And so it's kind of one of those, I'm like, I don't even care if this like, ends up being like viral or whatever. Yeah. It's like I had fun making it and actually that one did pretty well cuz I think it got like half a million views or something like that. But, um, so I don't know what, yeah. Like I said, the ones where I'm involving a lot more are usually the better.

Nick Clason (27:53):
Yeah. That's fun. All right, last thing, um, I didn't prep you for this, so, so sorry. But as, as a teacher, um, and someone who interacts with the next generation every single day, what's one thing that you wish, like pastors churches or youth pastors knew about teenagers or about the next generation? Like what's just one thing you're like, Hey, I wish you all knew this, or I wish you'd stop doing this, or I wish, like, I wish you knew this about what I see from my unique perspective as someone not in like a church or ministry related field.

Josh Chasteen (28:25):
Yeah, I think that, uh, this generation like is pretty good at like telling when people are being real and when people aren't mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . So I think, you know, just, uh, be real. Um, but also I would say, you know, I kinda already mentioned this earlier, like put a big emphasis on getting to know students because there's just a lot of hurt. Like, it's just amazing to me the amount of hurt that's out there. Like a lot of like, just junk that kids are going through. They're going through things that I've never could even imagine going through, but you don't know that on the surface. And so it's kind of like really, um, building those bridges and like tearing down walls, like getting to know them, um mm-hmm. where like some of this stuff starts coming out and then, I don't know, there, there's so many kids out there that just need like a trusting, caring adult in their life. And uh, and it's not a ton of work to like make that happen. I mean, it is work cuz relationships take time, but, um, yeah, I mean, just get to know kids.

Nick Clason (29:24):
Yeah. That's good man. That's good. Yeah. All right, bro, well that is it. That's all I got unless there's anything else that you wanna say. Um, I appreciate your time and, uh, thanks for hopping on, bro.

Josh Chasteen (29:35):
Yeah. Don't get too addicted to TikTok. That's the only thing I would say. Set, set some screen limits or else you'll go down a bad rabbit hole, but that's it.
If you're there all day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But no, thanks for having me. This is fun.

Nick Clason (29:46):
Well, hey, I hope you found that interesting and fun and just kind of an opportunity to kinda look and see, um, at what it is like to, uh, have a tweet or not tweet a TikTok, kind of go crazy and kind of go viral. So obviously that's not necessarily what we're all, you know, maybe like vying for or looking for, but it is, uh, it's a crazy story. And, um, more than that, I think what Josh's message was about, like, don't, don't just, you know, settle in for all the technology, but really get to know people. I think that's the heartbeat of most of us as ministry leaders, pastors, and so I, I just hope that you find that conversation helpful, useful, encouraging. Uh, hey, if you have not, again, like I said at the top of the show, go grab that ebook.

Nick Clason (30:31):
The link is in the show notes. I also have a complete video guide to that, if that's something that's helpful, uh, for you to watch, uh, to, to go through posting your first TikTok. And also if you found this helpful or if you grab that book and you find it helpful, share it with a friend. Um, leave a rating or a review. Uh, you can do everything and get all the show notes and transcripts and everything that you need to find over http://www.hybridministry.xyz. You can come hang out with me on YouTube or TikTok link to both of those in the show notes. And until next time, we'll talk to you all later. Bye.

Episode 024: Rob Shepherd on Starting, Growing and Making a Viral TikTok Account and Videos

Nick Clason — Thu, 29 Dec 2022 04:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick sits down with Pastor and TikTok Creator, Rob Shepherd. They discuss how he started out on TikTok, where his ideas come from, and the boundaries he needs to set up so that he doesn't become addicted to the TikTok world and keeps it all in check!

Full episodes and transcripts available at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Come hang with Nick on TikTok http://www.tiktok.com/users/@clasonnick
Or subscribe on YouTube for his new e-book coming out soon! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g

SHOWNOTES
Follow Rob on TikTok at https://www.tiktok.com/@robshep

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be along here with you and I'm excited today to bring you a guest. And so, um, this, this is Rob Shepherd. Um, he is pastor at Next Level Church out in Virginia. And, uh, Rob and I connected, you'll hear a little bit about how we connected, uh, but we connected cause uh, we have a mutual, um, friend, coworker. I mean, it's his sister, um, who, uh, I worked with his sister at a church I worked at in Ohio. And, um, we came together through just like some circumstances of, uh, doing a thing for his nephew. Um, a kid that was in my, uh, student ministry for a while. So, um, we met and just kind of became friends on Facebook or whatever. And then recently connected, um, more on TikTok.

Nick Clason (00:56):
I saw just a bunch of what he was doing on TikTok and, uh, kind of got onto his account. And, uh, I told him last week, Hey, I am stealing all of your ideas, uh, for our student ministry account because we needed a little bit of a refresh, um, in our posting, uh, rhythm, I would say. Uh, we had, we had done this thing where we were all kind of in charge of a segment of our, our TikTok posting calendar. Uh, but my, my coworkers were just having a hard time staying up with it. They weren't and aren't as, uh, TikTok and, you know, creating of TikTok savvy. Um, they just didn't do it as often as I did. And so, uh, posting would take them longer and they would avoid doing it cuz they didn't want to do it. Um, and it would take 'em longer than they wanted to, all these things.

Nick Clason (01:46):
So, uh, I started seeing Rob's videos and he had tons of fun stuff with just his kids and little games and competitions, a minute to win at stuff. And, um, so I went to his profile. I stole a bunch of his ideas. We started doing a lot of his things and then I just reached out to him. I was like, bro, you should come on my podcast. And he's like, I would love to. So I'm excited to bring you this interview with Rob. Excited for you guys to get to meet, uh, him. He personally has a TikTok account that's really active. He has a lot of followers, a lot of viewers, a lot of action, a lot of traction. So if there's a new for you, um, he has a kind of a wealth of knowledge on what it takes to, uh, run, manage, and grow a TikTok account. So, without any further ado, here is my interview with Rob Shepherd. Hey Rob. How's it going?

Rob Shepherd (02:37):
Awesome, man. Thanks so much for having me. I'm honored.

Nick Clason (02:39):
Absolutely. Hey, give uh, all tens and tens of my listeners. Just a quick, uh, overview who you are, where you are, uh, to what you're up

Rob Shepherd (02:48):
So. Yeah, I'm, I'm Rob Shepherd. I'm the lead pastor at Next Level Church. It's a church plant that I started 10 years ago. Um, I'm an author. I've written three books. My fourth book will be coming out in 2023. I have a wife, Monica, we've been married for 22 years and we have twins. They're 11 and they're in the sixth grade.

Nick Clason (03:06):
Awesome. So, uh, you and I connected cause uh, uh, your nephew was in my youth ministry in Ohio. Yeah. Um, and we did this super fun thing that I preached about and then your sister actually took me up on where, uh, a bunch of different people kind of invested in, in his life. And so we had this kind of culminating moment, uh, and that's where, that's where you and I met and I think we became friends on Facebook or something like that. And so I, I get on TikTok, um, when I moved here to Texas because I, before that I was just using my ministry TikTok account. Sure, sure. And I figured like, oh, I should probably make my own since I can't keep using my old ministry's algorithm anymore. Um, and you know, of course TikTok does that thing where it's like, you might know this person. Yeah. And so that's, that's how I, uh, you know, found you on there through that, through some linked contact thing, which I keep telling them not to do that yet

Rob Shepherd (04:01):
Somehow. Yeah, me too.

Nick Clason (04:02):
Here we are.

Rob Shepherd (04:03):
Yeah, it's so weird.

Nick Clason (04:05):
It's sketchy or something. I don't know. That's how they're, they're learning all of our information. They're gonna take over our world

Rob Shepherd (04:10):
A hundred

Nick Clason (04:11):
Percent, but that's fine. It's okay. It's okay. Um, and so, actually, you know, Rob, I just started watching your videos cuz so much fun. Oh,

Rob Shepherd (04:21):
Thank

Nick Clason (04:21):
You. Um, yeah. And, and then of course as a youth pastor, I was like, I'm gonna steal all of these ideas, . Um, and we did, but, uh, tell me just a little bit, how did you end up on like, TikTok? Was it like just for fun or are you doing it for like, ministry reasons, purposes to get your author like information out there? Like what's your, what was kind of your reasoning behind all that?

Rob Shepherd (04:45):
Yeah, so a hundred percent it was 2020. The whole world shuts down . Um, and like I have more time on my hands than than normal. Um, cuz we're not having public services. We can't be in the office. Um, like literally everything is shut down. Yep. And I kept seeing people post TikTok on Facebook and Instagram and I was like, what is this? Like, I don't get it. Like, how do they know these dances? And like, , how, like, what I don't, I don't understand. Like, it, this app doesn't make any sense to me. So I downloaded it out of boredom. Okay. And the first, I mean, the first few times looking at it, I was like, this is a, this is an app for 12 year olds. Like, I'm not, you know, there's no way. Like, yeah, I'm just not interested. But then, you know, there was like a couple nights where I couldn't sleep or whatever, and I would just like, let me see this TikTok thing and, and I would get sucked in.

Rob Shepherd (05:39):
And then you start watching videos and you're like, why is it two in the morning? Like, yeah. What is happening here? Um, and so after about a week of just kind of stalking and watching videos, I was like, you know what? This looks like some fun. And so 2020 was stressful for a lot, lot of people. Mm-hmm. , um, as a lead pastor, navigating, shutting down church when to reopen, um, it was very stressful for me mm-hmm. . And so starting to make these videos was a creative outlet. So I just started making, um, literally just to have fun. Just something to get my mind off of the stress. And then one thing led to another and we got a couple followers and that's what happened.

Nick Clason (06:19):
And there we are. Yeah. So that's your, like, that's like your personal, like that was something that you just kind of did for fun. Yeah. Have you dove into it, uh, at like a ministry or church-wide level yet? Or is it mostly just something you're doing on your own?

Rob Shepherd (06:33):
Yeah, so, um, TikTok is interesting to me because if, if you start it like, like your youth group's, TikTok, you can gain a following because people that are gonna follow you are probably other youth pastors or churches or they're interested in it. Mm-hmm. , because I started, um, doing just silly like games and, and that kind of stuff. My out of, you know, my 157,000 followers, they don't give a rip about what I do. Right. Um, anytime I post personal things, videos, tank mm-hmm. and no one's like, oh, you know, um, there's a few times in lives, like any, anytime I go live, I I'll tell people, Hey, I am a pastor and um, you know, and you don't have to be a Christian to follow me, but, um, and you know, there'll be some people who will say, oh wow, that's interesting that you're a pastor. But like, I've posted about my books before. Nobody cares. Yeah. Um, posted about our church, nobody cares cuz I didn't start it as that ministry, the ones that have success on it. Start it with like, the intent of I'm gonna start it for ministry or, you know, books, selling books or, or whatever.

Nick Clason (07:38):
Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I, I, yeah, I've even noticed that too, you know, with my own, like, it's, the thing that the algorithm has done is like TikTok has absolutely changed the game on social media, right? Mm-hmm. , so like before a church would have a page or an Instagram account or whatever, and then they'd tell their, their church people come follow us. And then we would all just post announcements about like our church potluck and Yeah. Doing things like that. And now TikTok and subsequently reels on Instagram and Facebook, YouTube shorts, like they're all about just like discovering people that you've never discovered before. Yeah. Like, you know that on your homepage there's the following and the four uab and like I'm never in the following.

Rob Shepherd (08:25):
Yep. It

Nick Clason (08:26):
Only puts me there after I post a video and then I'm like, these are a lot of people I know. And then I'm like, oh, that's cuz I'm in the following section. And they just did that to me. Yeah. So it's, it's such a different, and so from a like a ministry standpoint, it's such a different mindset of like, what are we doing on here? Sure. And like, who are we trying to serve in a lot of ways. Sure. It'ss almost like a, it's less of like nurturing your own people and more of like trying to reach people, you know? Yeah. And is there merit to it? I don't know. It's so, so new. Yeah. And that's the thing. Sure. So

Rob Shepherd (08:57):
Yeah. I I think, oh, go ahead. Do you have a question? Nope. I don't wanna interrupt you. Go ahead. Yeah, I, I think to that point, um, so, you know, in Jesus' day and age, the gathering point would've been like a well mm-hmm. and it's where the people went mm-hmm. . And so we see at times Jesus would go to where the people are. He would go to the well, like, you wanna go and gather an audience. Well, for a lot of a long time the church has acted like our building is a well, but no one in the community is coming to our, well no one has. That's

Nick Clason (09:27):
Good. Yeah.

Rob Shepherd (09:27):
But where is everybody? They're at the well called TikTok. Mm-hmm. There's over a billion people on TikTok. Mm-hmm. Over a billion. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, I've had some success on social media, on, you know, Facebook or Instagram, but nothing like TikTok. Um, you have the greatest chance to reach people now. It's a lot of hard work. It's not a guarantee that you'll reach people, but you have a greater chance to reach people and influence people and be around them. And so my TikTok is not explicitly like, I'm not a Christian TikTok, um, but I will subtly try to, you know, I'll wear a a a t-shirt that says, you know, a Christian message on it or, um, you know, I'll try to highlight in kind of a subtle way to say like, I've got all these thousands of people watching, um, let me try to gain influence. It's a long game. It's, it's slow. It's, you know, it's not a, a quick, you know, thing, but that's where people are. So I wanna gather around them and try to gain influence with them.

Nick Clason (10:20):
Yeah, absolutely. Like I, and like I said, it's, you know, how, so someone's scrolling through, they stop on your video and then the next one they're onto some like, stupid trend or stupid dance. So yeah, I think there's the pushback, you know, from other people is gonna be like, well, are you really making a difference? Or, you know, whatever. Like, is that 32nd clip enough to like influence and change someone's life? And like I said earlier, I don't know, um, sure. But what I do know is that the, a the landscape of social media is changing. B the landscape of our culture post covid, gen Z and the digital mindset is completely shifting. So this is the, the direction everyone's headed. And I'm sure there'll be some adjustments and pivots along the way. But for the first time in like social media history, every major platform is all in on this style of video. And I think the unique position that churches find themselves in is that, uh, this actually lends itself very well to what pastors, speakers, church people do on a regular basis. We create and produce content on a weekly basis. So for the first time we can take snippets of what we're doing and re-broadcast it. And also for the first time we can do that basically across the four major platforms without any consequence. Cuz they're all sure they're all going all in on this, you know? Sure,

Rob Shepherd (11:40):
Sure.

Nick Clason (11:41):
So the thing, like, the thing that stood out to me about you, uh, was like just the amount of fun that you have on it. Right. And I think a lot of times in this conversation, it depends where you land, right. But especially if you're like a church trying to like do digital ministry, you feel this need and this pressure to like share this deep theological truth, um, on TikTok. And if you don't get millions and millions of views, like you're, you, you didn't do it. It wasn't sure. Beneficial, advantageous. Um, so what, like, what predicated for you? Just like going all in on like, just the jokes, the fun stuff, the games, the competitions. Like I just love watching your family, like just having a blast together. Yeah. You know, doing things.

Rob Shepherd (12:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, for us it was just really natural. It was, um, we like filming these type of things. Um, we, we like doing, uh, coming from a youth ministry background there, a lot of the stuff that I do is recycle games that I used to play with, you know, my students and Yeah. Now my, my kids are, you know, 11 years old, sixth grade. And so, uh, we recycle, uh, uh, a lot of that. But I will say bigger picture for me is that there are a lot of church circles where it, it, it is almost like, uh, it's almost like God doesn't have a sense of humor. Like Yeah. Everything has to be serious. And, and I think there is a seriousness and there is a, a reverence that we should have towards God. But if you read through the scriptures, there's, there's whole festivals that God told people to have.

Rob Shepherd (13:15):
Mm-hmm. And in our culture, we have lost, uh, no one looks to the church to have fun. No one looks to the church to have fun, like parties. Like, if you wanna have fun, go get drunk, go out to a club. Yeah. But like, why, why shouldn't we set the standard towards no. Like, we've got the greatest news in the world. If anyone should be joyful, it should be Christians. And so let's have, let's have some fun, um, and, and do and show people like, Hey, you can have a great time and you don't have to cuss. Um, you can have a great time. You don't have to be half naked. Uh, you can have a great time and, and you, you don't have to be drunk. Like you can have good, clean, wholesome, fun and do it in the name of Jesus.

Nick Clason (13:50):
Yeah. No, that's really good. So, uh, couple, I now just want to get like specific and ask some like, just kind of fun questions. So what is, what video, uh, have you posted on your TikTok that has gotten like the most traction, the most likes? The mo went the most viral.

Rob Shepherd (14:07):
Yeah. So, uh, so, um, uh, you know, I was on TikTok for, uh, I wanna say, so I got on in 2020. It's 2022. So going on two years, it'll be three years I guess next, next March or, um, so for my first year, um, I had decent success, but it was nothing crazy. Um, I gained, uh, in, in year one I got up to 10,000 followers. Um, but I never had a video that had a million views. I had a few that like, were close 800,000, 900,000, but I never hit a million. Um, year two, uh, it was the summer, uh, Olympics and my wife said, Hey, we should do an at-home Olympics competition with our family. And so we invited a couple friends over and just did like, almost minute to win it type games. Yeah. But we called it at Home Olympics.

Rob Shepherd (14:58):
And I did like eight of these videos. And, uh, most of them didn't do great, but like, one of 'em was like the fourth one, uh, it, it took about two or three weeks, but it, it hit over a million views. Yeah. Um, and that's when I was like, okay, people like watching us play these, these games. And so we started doing some more of those. And then, uh, by November of of that year, um, I, I posted a, um, there was this trend that kind of went around, uh, like imposter where you have like, uh, you know, three waters and one vinegar mm-hmm. , and, you know, people gotta, you gotta guess who, who drank the, the vinegar. Um, so we were like, Hey, that would be fun to do with our family. And when I was a youth pastor, um, years ago, I, I used to do this thing called Dr.

Rob Shepherd (15:45):
Dare, where I would trick the students. And so, uh, if you take, uh, like a, a tub of vanilla ice cream and you scoop out all the ice cream and you fill it with mayonnaise and then you freeze it, it scoops just like ice cream. Okay. So back when I was a youth pastor, I would say, Hey, we're gonna have a ice cream eating competition. And, you know, I'd get my two volunteers and I'd scoop it out and they would think they're eating two scoops of vanilla ice cream. But then I would say, ah, you know, Dr. Dare gotcha. This is mayonnaise. Let's see who can eat the most mayonnaise. And then, you know, set a 32nd timer and they have to eat the most. And so, um, I was thinking about this imposter thing. I was like, you know what, we could freeze, uh, mayonnaise and do three ice creams, one mayonnaise, um, and let's just, let's just do an imposter.

Rob Shepherd (16:26):
Yeah. Um, and so we did this imposter video and I closed my phone and we went out shopping and, uh, we were at Target and I was like, I told my wife, I said, Hey, can I, can I look at your phone real quick just to see, uh, I wanna see how our TikTok is doing. And, um, it was like an hour later and it had like 17,000 views. And I was like, wow, okay. That's, that's pretty crazy. Uh, by, by like, you know, that night, um, it was like 800,000 by the next day it was, uh, like up to 2 million. Yeah. Um, that video currently, I don't look at it, I, I've kind of lost track of it, but last I checked it was at like 59 million views. Wow. Um, and so it has gone, it like there's people that are speaking Chinese and German, like there's all sorts of languages that have hit on this video in the comments Yeah. In the comments . Yeah. But that, so that imposter one, um, we've, we've had multiple now that have gone over a million. We've had a few that have hit, uh, you know, 10 million, uh, 6 million. Uh, but the biggest was that imposter one with the mayonnaise and it, it's at like, I think 59 million.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Yeah. And like I was telling you this week, like we, we tried a couple year of those. Right. And so we've, uh, we've done a few of those like on our team. Yeah. Um, and so our first one hit this week and we had an event last night and it was just fun cuz there's a lot of people like kind of talking to us about it. Yeah. Like, I totally thought she had it, I didn't Yeah. Like, you know, all that type of stuff. And so I think, you know, sort of like my heartbeat, uh, behind this podcast right, is like, I don't think that, um, digital ministry only is necessarily the best way to approach reaching people. I think it can happen. Um, but I think it's difficult. I think Covid showed to us like some of the limitations of it a hundred percent.

Nick Clason (18:19):
However, like the completely reliant on, on, uh, in-person, um, without any sort of digital expression at all, um, is very much like, Hey, come, like you said, come to our gathering place once a week and then we'll see you next week. Right? Yeah. Like, people still live lives 367 other hours of their, their week. And so how do we show up in, in those spaces, in those dead sort of spaces? And like you said, where people are, they're online, they're, they're jumping on their phones. Um, oftentimes, let's be honest, they're jumping on their phones to be entertained or maybe inspired. Um, but they're not jumping on their phones to be reminded about the church potluck in two weeks. A hundred percent jump. They're jumping on their phones to watch something silly. Like, I don't know about you. Like me and my wife will just get on our phones after the kids go to bed and she'll be on hers, I'll be on mine and we'll share stuff to each other like across the couch.

Nick Clason (19:12):
Yeah. Like, Hey, did you watch that thing I just sent you? Um, or we'll, you know, I'll turn it and show it to her. And so I think that sort of archetype of just like fun, entertaining, um, your church can, can be that, you know, you can set that example, um, and do it, uh, just for fun. Like I said, if nothing else, not even necessarily to try and go viral. Um, sure. But for your people, it's a way to, to engage. And like I said, so one of the way, one of the things I'm doing is I'm taking all that TikTok stuff. I'm also putting it on reels. Yeah. But then I can use that, uh, on our, our Instagram feed or our Instagram stories, which is often we're more of our actual followers are coming across our content. Yeah. So like I shared that imposter video that we did, uh, but I shared it to our story and then I just put like a, uh, the poll question sticker, like, who do you think it was? Yeah. And let people vote, right? Yeah. And so it's just another kinda layer way to like engage with your people. So even if you're listening to this, you're like, I don't know, I don't know if my goal is to reach 12 million people, like you don't have to like, that doesn't mm-hmm. that doesn't have to be the end game or the end No. The end goal in all this, you know, so

Rob Shepherd (20:19):
Well, and I, I would say to that fact, if you go chasing views, TikTok will drive you crazy mm-hmm. . Um, because the videos that I've put a ton of time in and I'm like, this is great. We've edited this. Like I've spent so much, I scripted this out, they flop mm-hmm. , um, you know, and a video that you don't even think about. Like I, I had a video, we did a video, we, we do this thing for my kids' birthdays, for all our birthdays where we flip a birthday cake. Yeah. And, um, my daughter flipped hers and her, her facial reaction was so great cuz she didn't, she, she caught it upside down. And I posted that video on their birthday, which is March 30th. Um, it did nothing mm-hmm. Like literally did nothing. Two months later it went viral. Hmm. Um, and it's that 6 million views right now, but if you chase views, if you do something for the views, you'll be so disappointed.

Rob Shepherd (21:08):
Yeah. Or I, I would say for anyone listening this, um, you don't have to duplicate someone else's TikTok, be authentic to who you are. Do what, what interests you. My family likes doing these games. Yeah. So it's very authentic and real to us. But if you don't like doing those games, don't go chasing that. If you don't like dancing, don't do dances on TikTok. Like Yeah. Don't do that. There is a niche for almost or niche, however you say it. There is a, a, a niche for almost everyone. Yeah. Um, you've gotta find it and be consistent. And when it's authentic to you, you can find an audience. But it, it takes, it takes time and a lot of work.

Nick Clason (21:39):
Yeah. All right. So that, so then another question I have, so those are your most viral videos. Yeah. What's your favorite video? And maybe like you said it, you put a lot of time into it, effort into it, and it didn't, it didn't do anything like, but what's a, a favorite video or two that you've done that maybe didn't go viral, but you're like, yeah, this is really cool. I still really liked it.

Rob Shepherd (22:00):
Yeah. Um, so I might have like recency bias, but there's one that I filmed a few weeks ago, uh, with my kids and my son does not love being on camera. Um, my daughter will, will she, she's more of a little bit of a ham, so she'll, she'll jump on with me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but we did a video to, uh, uh, a sound, we, so we didn't create the sound. Um, but she is playing, um, she has wrapping paper rolls and she's hitting my head and it's making like the drum noise. And my son took a cardboard cutout that we have of elf and he puts it into the background so he's controlling that she can't see him, but it gave him something to do. And, uh, it was just the three of us that, that made it. And it was so fun to make. Yeah. Um, it has not taken off at all. Uh, and so first I posted it once and it, it, it did not take off. And so like a week later I posted it a second time just hoping it would like, kind of take off. It hasn't taken off either, but that was the, probably the most fun I've had. And, and one of the ones that I'm like, I love that cause I did it with my kids.

Nick Clason (22:59):
Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit like just nerdy kind of like strategy stuff with that. So yeah. Uh, talk about what you've seen in the algorithm and um, and views and whatnot about, you know, you said like re reposting it. So are you like deleting the original video or are you just never taking it back onto your feed to try and like catch catch that lottery ticket again? Yeah. Um, and like, how, how many times would you do that with a certain video? Would you do it more than two times? Um, or what have you done, you know, that you've seen work?

Rob Shepherd (23:35):
Yeah. So here's the thing about TikTok, what you said earlier is what almost everyone does. No one hangs out on the following. They hang out on the for you page. Yeah. So if, if your videos don't get on the for you page, people aren't seeing them over and over again mm-hmm. . And so it doesn't hurt you to repost something and just see like, Hey, did this, you know, did it flop because no one, you know, is the wrong time of day or whatever, or Hmm. You know, whatever. So it doesn't, it doesn't hurt you to repost. And if you'll notice the people that consistently go viral, they repost the same type of video over and over again. Yeah. It may have a new tweak to it, but once they find out what do people like, they just do that over and over again. And then eventually they'll come up with a new, you know, twist or whatever.

Rob Shepherd (24:19):
Um, but there's a family that I, I follow that they've got, you know, like 2 million followers and when I scroll through their page, like I go to their direct page, it's the same video once every four videos. There's like, they just repeat it over and over again. Yeah. Um, and so yeah. I, I think, I think go for it. If you, if you, it's not like Instagram where people will, will criticize you or say, I've already seen this or Facebook, uh, it's all reliant on the for you page. And so if it didn't go viral, probably no one saw it on the for you page. You just repost it again.

Nick Clason (24:52):
Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Man, that's so, that's so interesting to think about cuz we've been so conditioned by the curated feeds, you know? Yeah. And everything that Instagram and Facebook were like, it's just, it's an, it's a brand new day out there on social media. And, and the reason I can say that like confidently Yeah. Is cause every other platform is ripping TikTok off right now. Like mm-hmm. , every other platform is going all in Instagram about three months ago, converted every video to a reel. Yep. Um, YouTube tried shorts didn't work and they, they took it down and they're tweaking it and bringing it back. Not because they don't want to work. They, they did some stuff I think on their backend to promote it even more. So everyone is saying this is, this is the new wave. So it's it, but it's a new wave of thinking too. Right? Yeah. Um, yeah. So it's, I that's so, that's so crazy to think about. Um,

Rob Shepherd (25:49):
Yeah. And I, as far real quick, as far as taking, taking down a video, um, so I know Instagram ingrained in a lot of, especially teenagers, that if it doesn't have a certain amount of likes take it down. Um, cuz they're like mm-hmm. a ashamed of it or, or you know, whatever. Um, do not do that on TikTok. I think it is a massive mistake. Mm-hmm. Very few people are just scrolling your profile and give a rip about how your videos are doing. That's good. Um, but what happens is, especially now, cuz this year TikTok has converted itself to be more of a search engine. Mm-hmm. , it wants to be more like YouTube. So like I have videos from last Christmas games that we played that are going viral right now Mm. Because people are searching for Christmas games. Mm. And so, like, I had a video that had a few thousand views last year. Right Now it's, it's, I mean, it's got thousands upon thousands of views from this year, year a year later because people are now searching for Christmas games or, or, or whatever. Mm-hmm. So I, I don't delete, I don't delete anything. There's been a couple that I have privated or I've turned to like friends only mm-hmm. , um, you know, but, uh, I, for the most part, once it's out there, just like see what happens and it could be six months to a year and then it'll take off.

Nick Clason (27:02):
Yeah. That's so good too. Think about it, the, it's come in like a search engine, so churches, church leaders, like you can answer questions that people might search like Yep. Questions about God, about faith, about theology, about like, some deep existential things that, like

Rob Shepherd (27:21):
Marriage relationships

Nick Clason (27:21):
You're all going to be looking at. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you can show up in Yeah. In those searches. So that's good. Yeah. All right. So the last, just the last little thing I wanna touch on here before we we sign off is how do you personally, uh, not get sucked into the addict addictive side of social media? Like the fact that, you know, you can be chasing likes, views, like it's, I mean, it's scientifically proven that they're built, our smartphones are built to be like dopamine hits, which are the same things that like drugs, uh, or pornography give us, right? Yeah. So like, what are some just sort of personal guardrails or things that you do to protect yourself or your family or your screen time or those types of things as you're, um, also producing different and lots of content?

Rob Shepherd (28:10):
Yeah, yeah. You know, so I a hundred percent got sucked in, in, into that, um mm-hmm. . And, uh, I would say the, the first thing that really, uh, impacted me is when we first kind of started going viral. Um, I thought, you know, this is it. Like, and it was so nice. Every time I opened my phone I had 99 notifications and it was so cool. It was like, man, you know, people are loving it. But then after a couple months I hit a dead zone and my videos, everything I posted, it didn't matter. It just flopped and it messes with your head. It's like, well, what's wrong with me? Does my content stink now? And like, it's not the case. Like, I don't know what happens with the algorithm, but the algorithm giveth and it take it away. Like there are, there are just seasons where it's like, no matter what you post, no one's gonna see it.

Rob Shepherd (28:57):
No one's gonna care. Mm-hmm. . And then there's other seasons where like you could sneeze on, on camera and it's gonna go viral. And so, um, that kind of seasoned learning helped me say, okay, I, I don't need to, I need to get off my phone. I don't need to be obsessed with it cuz I can't control it. Mm-hmm. , once the video is posted, I can't control if it goes viral or not. And so typically when I post a video, I shut my phone off and I don't get on TikTok for a while. Um, and just kind of let it sit and then, you know, I'll, I'll open it later. Um, also try really hard, uh, for family time. Um, which the nice thing about making tos with my family is that we get to do something together. Yeah. Um, before they started making 'em, it was me by myself.

Rob Shepherd (29:39):
Yeah. And that, my wife and I, we had to have some hard conversations cuz it's like, you know, we're watching TV and I would go make a TikTok and it would only take 15, 20 minutes, but it's 15, 20 minutes away from them. Mm-hmm. now we make a lot together. And so that, that's also been, but yeah, trying to shut off the phone. Um, trying not to, to let it consume your, your mindset and it'll make you go crazy if you're, if you're looking for likes or looking for, how's this video doing mm-hmm. now I just post and, uh, just let the album do its thing. Yeah.

Nick Clason (30:09):
No, that's good. I think, I think it's just acknowledging like they are trying to suck you in. So Yeah. A know that and then b like as a social media creator, pastor, producer, whatever, ministry leader, just have this self-discipline to put it down, walk away. Yeah. Maintain that walkaway power. So yeah. All right, man, let us know, uh, where can people follow you on TikTok? Tell us about Yeah. Your book coming out, like where they can grab all that type of stuff.

Rob Shepherd (30:39):
Yeah, so, um, I am, uh, at Rob Shep on TikTok, uh, Instagram. It's at Rob underscore Shep. Um, Facebook, I'm Rob Shepherd. Um, so, and I'm on all those. Uh, I don't ever check Twitter, but you can find me on there too, . Um, but, uh, yeah, so TikTok is at Rob Shep. Um, new book will be out, uh, hopefully by February, um, February, March. And you'll be able to find it on Amazon. But it, uh, all my books are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere you go to buy books, especially online. Yeah. Um, you, they, you can get a copy of, of my book. And so I've had, uh, three books out. The first one's called, even if You Were Perfect, someone would Crucify You. The second one's called You Misspelled Christian, and the third one is called Kill the Jerk. And so, um, those are my three books. And then, uh, fourth one is about, uh, when offense knocks and about not getting so offended. So,

Nick Clason (31:31):
Mm. That's good. Love it. All right man. Well thanks so much for your time

Rob Shepherd (31:35):
During Yeah, thank you. Crazy

Nick Clason (31:36):
Busy Christmas week. Um, for sure. Appreciate you making some time for it. Talk about TikTok a little bit. Um, yeah, some fun stuff. So, and uh, yeah man, we'll talk to you next time.

Rob Shepherd (31:45):
All right, sounds good. Thanks for having me on.

Nick Clason (31:47):
Yeah. Later, bro.

Rob Shepherd (31:48):
All right.

Nick Clason (31:50):
Well man, I hope that you guys enjoyed that conversation. Uh, I know even as I was having the interview with him, I learned a couple of things and he made me think differently about a couple of things in managing, uh, my TikTok reels, YouTube shorts, all the different accounts that, um, are promoting short form videos. So I hope that was beneficial and advantageous for you. Hey, if this was helpful, go uh, share it with a friend. We're gonna be posting some clips of this over on my personal TikTok at Clason, Nick, uh, check that out. And here soon. Um, I will be dropping a video, um, I believe next week, um, at the start of the new year on the framework, um, for posting a TikTok. It's called, have I Ruined My TikTok account yet? A guide for posting a TikTok from Start to finish.

Nick Clason (32:38):
Uh, it's gonna be complete with an ebook, um, as well as a tutorial video. And so excited to have you guys check that out. You can head, uh, to the show notes hybrid ministry.xyz/ 0 2 4, uh, to subscribe to my YouTube channel and, uh, to join my TikTok follower list, if that's something that interests you, or if you just want transcript notes from the show. We provide transcripts for every single episode completely for free at zero cost to you. We hope that you find it beneficial and advantageous. And also, would you just do us a favor, share this podcast with a friend, subscribe, rate. All those things will be an incredible gift to us here in the weeks after the Christmas season. Um, our gift to you is to continue to deliver meaningful and useful content every Thursday. Um, and a gift back if you so desire would just be, uh, a rating.

Nick Clason (33:35):
You would love that so much. Just open your purple podcast app on your phone, give us a five star and, uh, that would be incredibly generous and we would thank you so much for that. So, um, like I said, anytime you need anything hybridministry.xyz, there's also a, um, articles tab there. We're gonna start posting some more articles and writings and things like that. So, um, that's where the ebook is gonna be found. So just check that out. That's so interest to you. But until next time, we'll talk to a happy New Year and see you in.

Episode 022: Bridging the Generation Gap by using an episode of the Office.

Nick Clason — Thu, 15 Dec 2022 04:00:00 -0600

DESCRIPTION
In this episode, Nick dissects an Office episode that he recently was viewing and correlating that to how older and younger generations often approach the discussion around "In-Person" and "Digital" ministry. His proposal, was less "Either/or" and instead it was a "Both/And" approach. One that he likes to call "Hybrid"
What can the church take that is set to defacto "In-Person" only and create digital versions and digital access points for those same elements? Such as sermons, community and Bible reading.

Full transcripts and other resources available at: http://www.hybridministry.xyz
FREE Social media checklist at: https://merry-swamp-3547.fireside.fm/articles/free-social-media-checklist
Or come hang on TikTok at http://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick

TIMECODES
00:00-04:12 What we can learn from The Office
04:12-07:24 Digital - Ryan
07:24-09:16 In Person - Michael
09:16-11:21 How to make those two become Hybrid
11:21-14:57 Sermons
14:57-16:12 Helping People Find Community
16:12-17:53 Bible Reading
17:53-19:38 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:02):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. So excited to be here with you. My name is Nick Clason, and I am of course your host. Glad to have you today. You know, I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, a little bit different of an episode today. I wanted to look at an episode from the American TV show, the Office. Now obviously, like many, many of us are very familiar with this television show, right? Um, and you know, it's actually really funny. I have a coworker who's younger, she's in her twenties, and she didn't even know that the show ever even aired on like Network tv. She thought it was always a streaming show. So anyway, so I'm, I'm doing a little re-watch of this show, and I mean, here's the thing, like truth be told, I'm kind of like always doing a re-watch of this show.

Nick Clason (00:53):
I'm always, it's always at some level or some layer available to me. But the episode in particular that I wanted to focus on was from season four, episode two. It's called Dunder Mifflin Infinity. And if you're not familiar with the show, let me just bring you up to speed a little bit on it. So, Ryan, new manager at Dunder Mifflin. Um, Michael is still the, uh, the regional manager, the guy that everyone's kind of like used to and, and no, and he's famous and whatever and whatnot. Ryan is now his boss. And so that lasts for about a season. But Ryan is this new kind of young, up and coming guy. And so Ryan's entire like focus and identity and purpose is, he wants to bring D Mifflin into the 21st century. He wants to digitize them. And so Ryan is sort of this all digital, this all kind of person, right?

Nick Clason (01:40):
Online is the future. This is how it needs to happen, this is how it goes. Eventually, Ryan ends up in jail for fraud. So it doesn't exactly end up well for him, but let's just take a look at this episode in a microcosm. Um, conversely, there's Michael, who's old school. Michael's all about relationships. Michael's all about customer service. That's always sort of been done. Mifflin's calling card in the office is they're able to, um, out customer service, the big box retail guys. So what they're doing constantly in all of their sales and all those things is they're saying like, Hey, we're better than Staples. We're better than Office Depot, and we're able to supply you guys with the best possible customer service. And so we have Michael, basically we have Michael versus Ryan, right? In this, in this episode. And as I was watching it, it made me, um, it made me really like interested in this juxtaposition that we find ourselves in the church, in digital versus in person.

Nick Clason (02:41):
All right? And so, um, basically to, to summarize, uh, the rest of the episode, Ryan's pushing everyone to be more digital, gives everybody blackberries. Like that's the whole thing. Michael is opposing it. Jan, his now, uh, girlfriend is telling him that, um, he can sue Ryan for being, um, ages istic, um, and pushing out all the old people. And so, um, in an attempt to win everybody back over, Michael takes gift baskets to 10 clients that they've lost and that have, uh, switched over to other companies. And in that, while he's doing that, right, people are like, Hey, um, thank you so much for this gift basket, but that website thing that you're talking about, that's actually quite interesting to me. So let me know when that's a, when that's up and running. I'll be interested in exploring coming back to your company. And so there's wins for them, um, but there still are wins in the kind of like customer service side of things.

Nick Clason (03:41):
And so if you're a fan of the show at all, uh, just real quick, Michael drives his car into a lake because he is following a GPS way too closely and way too literally. And, um, he comes back to the office soaking wet and he thinks that he's lost. And, but in the meantime, for some reason, Ryan doesn't have the kones to stand up to Michael and just put him in his place, which I always find odd and interesting, but it's just this kind of weird tension between the digital guy and the in-person guy. So let's explore digital real quick. So Ryan is the digital guy where online is the future. And, and it's where everyone's going. I mean, that's kind of the entire thrust of the entire nine seasons, right? Is that this company is becoming so irrelevant with how they're doing things that like all the other guys are, are passing them.

Nick Clason (04:28):
Like even in the beginning of this episode, there's a funny kind of bit where Ryan is talking about the overhaul of the website, and Jim goes, well, I don't know what's wrong with our website. And he goes to it and it's got like this little, uh, stick figure animation that says under construction coming soon, and it gives like a year. And like at the time of the airing, like that year had already passed. And so therefore it just goes to show that they had not at all and in any way been investing in their website, which is such a wild thing to think about how recently this show aired. Like that was, that's an, that was a necessary thing for people back then, or at least I feel like it should have been. And maybe, um, I'm forgetting how much older that show is, right?

Nick Clason (05:08):
But anyway, so Ryan's coming in and he's ready to overhaul this whole thing. And I, I see elements of myself in Ryan, um, and how I viewed digital ministry, um, very recently, and even maybe still a little bit if I am being completely and totally honest, right? So, uh, in the ways that I, I see myself like Ryan, I'm pushing all my chips into the middle, uh, saying I'm all in on online because I look at all the stats. I see that generation Z millennials, uh, high percentage of people are living their lives on Facebook. Uh, gen Z spends five to eight hours of screen time a day. And so therefore I'm like, we need to show up where they are. And I still believe those things, by the way, right? But sometimes at the, at the downfall of what happens on, uh, in an in-person experience or an in-person ministry type of moment, um, I forget that like there are valuable things, um, that can happen in the in-person type of moment.

Nick Clason (06:09):
And also, uh, the way I am, I'm, I, I often play devil's advocate. And so I feel like in uh, organizations, I kind of come in and I end up sort of taking the role of the change agent. And so if everything is, uh, a pendulum swing to, um, all the in-person style of ministry, I'm trying to push them to think about things another way. Not that I don't agree with these things, but just that like this church or this organization that I'm working in, they don't need more of that, right? They need more of this. And so my attitude and my posture becomes one of kind of all in and continually pushing in that way. So, uh, definitely in the last church I worked in, like there was this big argument on the heels of Covid. Covid was over. People were done with it.

Nick Clason (06:52):
They were ready to either come back or be in person or give up online, whatever. And I thought we were doing some valuable things online. And so therefore, I was making an attempt to continue to remain online. And so all I talked about all the things, I said, all my arguments were online, online, online. And I wonder if people that I worked with, like, do you, do you even care about some of this other in-person stuff? And the answer of course is, yes, I did. Right? But like, because of my personality and my devil's advocate this, I needed to keep pushing about it that way.

Nick Clason (07:26):
So let's look at Michael. Michael, anti-d digital anti online wants to be all about in-person, right? He's saying customer service still matters. He brings the gift baskets to all of his customers. I would say that I resonate with Michael in this episode very much like when I, uh, was back in Bible college, right? Um, in a lot of ways when I'm in college, I didn't have the ability to kind of nuance or think about things or see things in other ways. And so like this, like this is the way that it has to be. This is the way it's supposed to be very like dogmatic, right? Like I would say you can't do church without being together. Um, and I've even had conversations with, uh, former students of mine who've said those types of things, like, well, preaching has to be in person. And maybe one day I'll do a deep dive.

Nick Clason (08:14):
Um, first of all, I need to do some study into the theology of preaching in the theology of proclaiming God's word, right? But like, I need to look into that and say like, can preaching and can the exposition or delivering of God's word be done in a different way than behind a pulpit? And I guess I would have to say, I think it has to be, because biblically speaking, most pastors, exhorters teachers, overseers, shepherds, were not behind a pulpit. Like that's, that's a much more recent phenomenon. And so to say that that's the only way it can be can't actually be true. Cuz if you look at the Bible, that's not the way it was back then. And if we wanna wanna be true to what the Bible has to say and what the word of God has to say, then I don't know that we can make that, that, you know, conclusion.

Nick Clason (09:03):
Exactly. And so we see Michael very much in that like, this is how it has to be unwilling to kind of move and change and flex and adopt and become different, right? Like with the times and like, what's going on? All right, so that was Ryan. That was Michael. Well, now let's look at a hybrid approach to this, right? Because as I was watching this, obviously it's for comedy and obviously, right, it's for show, but Ryan and Michael, in my personal opinion were both right, but both of them were so consumed with winning, right? That like, it became, uh, comical about who is gonna win this guy or that guy, right? So, so Michael didn't want to go online at all. And I think that's dumb. Like there is going to be value in that, especially when you're watching the episode and some of the customers that he's seeing are like, uh, yeah, let me know when your website's back.

Nick Clason (09:57):
I think that they could do both, right? They could, they could have good customer service and have a good online sort of port, uh, portal, right? And make those things marry together. I think that, um, they could really serve their customers well cuz they are still small. And so if they were able to come up with a relevant, useful, good, uh, website, then could they bring that to their customers? And I think the answer to that is yes. And I wish that they would've, uh, seen that and that Michael and Ryan would've come together and willing and were willing more to work in like, sort of like a hybrid sort of way. I think. Um, Ryan wanted to go strictly online and was not concerned about losing the touch of, uh, their personal, uh, customer service, their personal touchability that Dunder Mifflin had. And I think that that's a big loss for him.

Nick Clason (10:47):
I think he's missing out on a pretty important moment. Why? Because, uh, Ryan, uh, didn't know what d mifflin's as up the sleeve was. The asep the sleeve was their customer service. So the people that were choosing to be with them did not want to be with them because of a nice new flashy website. Of course, he's thinking about reaching people, but how do you retain the people that are already there, um, as customers of your paper company? Okay? So I think both of them play a role. I think they mesh together really well. And at that intersection is where we find hybrid ministry. So let's explore in church, um, the pairing of the Ryan and the Michael, and where can some live things that we have a church have adopted or have become customary or we're just so used to, where can some of those live things be made more digital?

Nick Clason (11:39):
Okay, so number one, we have sermons. Let's talk about sermons again. I think one day I'd love to do a deep dive, maybe that'll be a future episode here of, um, sermons and exposition of the Bible and teaching and proclaiming of, of God's word. Um, where can some of those things be made into a digital format? Well, first and foremost, if you are preaching a sermon every single week, you can record that audio and immediately turn that into podcast. I read something that, um, the majority of adults, uh, listened to eight hours of podcasts a week. And so, um, I know like last week, for example, let me give you an example of my own life. I went to like a membership class at my church and I've told you guys, I'm new at my church. Um, and we weren't able to go to service or we were, but we kind of chose not to.

Nick Clason (12:28):
So hopefully anyone who like, um, I work for, sorry about that. Um, and guess what I did? I, I went and I was like, I'm gonna listen to this podcast, uh, later throughout the week. And so that is a really easy way for, for people in your church who miss. And it might even be, uh, easy way for people, um, who are unconnected to your church to come to, uh, at least an awareness of your church at a very like elementary level. And all you need to do is some simple plugin things into your audio board, capture your pastor's audio, some pretty basic mixing on the back end. You maybe don't even need to do a ton, as long as it doesn't sound horrendous. And then just upload that thing to an iTunes, um, apple podcast, Spotify podcast capture so that people can discover it.

Nick Clason (13:15):
Another layer to that of course could be to create like YouTube sermons. So to record your, um, sermon and your audio and pair those together. Of course, if you listen to my last episode, um, my 2023 and Beyond YouTube strategy for churches, I highly, highly recommend pre-filing your content, pairing down your sermons. Cuz most sermons or lectures are anywhere from 25 to 45 minutes long. And that's a little bit too long for the YouTube algorithm. You want to try and slide somewhere between that 12 and 18 minute range for videos on YouTube. So of course you could do that as well. Again, all you're doing is taking your content from your sermon and you're overlaying it and creating an opportunity for it to be digital, right? So like then another option is you have your sermons. So break those up into small short TikTok clips.

Nick Clason (14:07):
Like if you're not good at video editing, an option that you can do is you can take, uh, just a camera like I'm doing and talk directly into it and create 30 to 62nd clips from your message. Like you already have the content. So even if you can't get a clip from the actual pastor preaching a sermon, you can still use the same topic or the same content or the same passage and rip that post that and do 3, 4, 5 different little like sermon clips throughout the week. You can use that in short form video and everything, every single platform, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok are all about the short form video content. So use those things to your advantage. So with your sermons, you got got audio podcasts, you got YouTube videos, and you also have short form video. TikTok style clips. Another option for a thing that, um, is done live, but can be made.

Nick Clason (15:03):
Um, digital is a group finder. Most churches are all about community, are about helping people get connected, find their place, find their place to serve, uh, find, have something on your website that operates as a connection portal, uh, connect group, a small group, a grow group, or whatever you call your small groups. Have people be able to go on there and browse and search, make it user friendly. Uh, a lot of church management softwares will have those things as an available option that you can use some sort of group finder type of thing or just build something on your website. But the reality is, is like in my personal life, if I can't get an appointment with a dentist or a doctor or whatever through creating an appointment online, I don't want to use them. So I'm probably not gonna call, I'm probably not gonna email.

Nick Clason (15:51):
I might email. Um, but if I can have a full service, create an appointment type of thing online, I'm gonna do that. And I think the same is true for churches, especially for finding community, for finding groups, for finding places to jump in, uh, and be able to serve. So create something that's full scale, full service and available for your people to use, uh, to find community. The last option is daily devotionals. We all know the importance of getting people in the word, but there's a recent stat out there that said 8% of Christ following Christians, uh, read the Bible only one time a week, 8%. So how can we as a church, help give our people the tools that they have? There are an unlimited amount of tools. Now think about before the printing press. What did they have to use? They had to go to church to get the Bible, but now they can access it on their phone.

Nick Clason (16:45):
Probably many of us have multiple Bibles on our shelves at home. So how can we help get people, um, using scripture throughout their week? So a couple of options are, uh, the U version Bible plan, uh, u version Bible app on people's phones. They have plans, you can read things together, you can also put sermon notes on there so that people can follow along. And then when they're done at the bottom, you can link out to a plan to read together or to encourage people to read through on their own u version. Done by Life Church is an absolutely incredible tool for churches and it's only getting better. So use that as something that you can help promote scripture and um, bible literacy with the people in your church and in your congregation. Another option, of course, like I said, is um, you can use devotional type content.

Nick Clason (17:28):
So this is different than sermon content, but devotional content or going deeper on the sermon or something like that. And you can do that in TikTok, real short form video. Uh, you can even do like a little mini-series, like how to read the Bible and do a three-part series and post it, uh, on your social media for the week. But what are different ways that you can use social media, short form video, TikTok and those types of things to create devotional type content. So like I said, I think that there's been this, this fight between digital Ryan Howard and in person Michael Scott in the Dunner Mifflin Affinity episode. And I just wish I could have got together and helped counsel them. Been like, this is how you can marry those two things. And I find that to be true in the church community and coming together and praying and crying on each other's shoulders and carrying one another's burdens.

Nick Clason (18:21):
That's so important. And it cannot be done digitally, but people also need to be discipled. People need to read Bible content. People need to hear the truth from God's word, and they're not always available to show up to your in-person event in a physical form. So what are ways that you can support people in your church to help them, uh, through the means, through the the phone that's sitting in their pocket to help coach them and and teach them what it's like to live a life? Um, that's not just digital, not just physical, but it's hybrid. Hey guys, once again, thanks for hanging out. Uh, we've, we have full transcripts for every single episode over at hybridministry.xyz. I'd love to encourage you to go check that out. It's a great place to find some stuff there. Also, um, on my personal TikTok @ClasonNick, c-l-a-s-o-n-n-i-c-k, uh, posting little clips, um, from podcast episodes, um, current and past. So go check out on, hang out with us there. Love to connect with you in that way. Until next time, we'll talk to you all later.

Episode 021: Social Media in 2023 with new rules, remaining healthy personally while using social media as a tool, and the Best YouTube strategy of 2023 and Beyond!

Nick Clason — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 04:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this episode Nick discusses how to approach the new wave of social media, which is more about discoverability than it is about a custom curated feed. Additionally, Nick wades into the topics about remaining personally healthy while managine a social media profile and strategy. Finally, Nick discusses his personal favorite YouTube church content strategy for 2023 and beyond.

Follow along at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or on TikTok at https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick

TIMECODES
00:00-01:59 - Intro
01:59-10:46 - How do we approach this new wave of algorithim based on discoverability?
10:46-17:31 - How do we navigate boundaries with social media?
17:31-23:30 - The Best Church YouTube strategy for 2023 and beyond
23:30-24:48 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:02):
What is going on? Hybrid Ministry podcast. My name is Nick Clason. I am your host. Excited to be back with you again. In today's episode, I wanted to just touch on three different topics. Number one, how do we as content creators, as social media managers, as uh, church marketing, uh, aficionados, though none of us really probably went to school for church marketing. How do we handle the new phenomenon that we are in with a discoverability algorithm as opposed to a curated four year followers type algorithm that we used to experience or we were so accustomed to experiencing with Facebook and Instagram? The other thing I wanna look at is I wanna talk about how do we handle and navigate the fact that these, uh, phones and social media apps are so, uh, addicted, they literally mess with our brains. How do we navigate that? How do we handle that?

Nick Clason (01:02):
And is the means with which we are using to push out our content, is that the actual message? And what does that communicate to our church people? And then lastly, uh, I want to, I wanna lay up for you what I think to be the best small church and potentially even bigger than just small church YouTube strategy for churches in 2023. So let's get this thing started, but before we do, don't forget, like, subscribe. Um, you know what I switched over from, uh, focusing on my attention over on Twitter? We are now, um, at my personal Instagram, um, @ClasonNick, uh, on TikTok for, um, all the things that we have. Social media, also swing by hybridministry.xyz, which is the home of this podcast where you can find everything that you ever need, including show notes and transcripts. Those are there every single episode for you for free.

Nick Clason (01:56):
Let's get this thing started. So, how do we handle, how do we approach a discoverability algorithm? So the first thing you need to know is what is a discoverability algorithm? TikTok is the, um, is the platform that made this discoverability algorithm famous. You'll know if you're on TikTok, that there's a friends panel and there is a fyp or a four you panel. The reality is most of the content that you see on TikTok, it's probably done by people that you have discovered as opposed to people that you are actually friends with. What that means is the algorithm is smart and it understands that it knows who you interact with, what videos you watch the longest, which ones you share the most, which ones you like the most, which ones you save the most. And it highlights those. It indexes those and then it comes back and it feeds you more of that content.

Nick Clason (02:44):
It's honestly astonishing and bewildering and a little bit frightening how smart it is at knowing you and knowing me. So how do we as churches in 2022 and beyond handle, uh, approaching platforms with discoverability algorithms? Cuz here's the thing. You at the church might be thinking, well, that's fine, but I'm not on TikTok. The problem is every social platform, YouTube, Facebook, and now Instagram are going all in on short form video discoverability platforms in an attempt and in an effort to keep up with the phenomenon that is TikTok. So what do we do about that? Because, uh, you can choose to ignore it. And I would imagine that some churches are going to do that because, um, they might see TikTok is dangerous or it's perilous, or it's just another platform that they have to manage and they don't have the ability, effort, bandwidth to go in and make it happen.

Nick Clason (03:41):
But what do you do? Because honestly, it's a very different approach. Let's think about Facebook circa 2008. You would get people to like your page from your church, Hey, go like us on Facebook, click on notifications. And then what churches auto almost automatically did was they used and viewed social media as an extension of their communication strategy. So then churches, um, and organizations like churches got very, very, uh, complacent to just simply post announcements, Hey, come to the church potluck, Hey, come to the, the live nativity that we're having. Hey, come to the, uh, churchwide, you know, Frisbee golf championship. Yeah, I don't know, whatever. Right? And it's just announcement, announcement, announcement. Why? I think a couple of reasons. I think number one, um, the, the whirlwind is fierce in churches, you got an event once a week that you are hosting and pulling off.

Nick Clason (04:36):
That's not to mention any of the special events that you have all throughout the year. And so it can feel like you're in the event planning and facility rental or facility usage environment or, or space. And so those things are, um, just fierce. They're just coming at you hot every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. And so then therefore, as opposed to crafting and curating a tailor made for you social media, um, first strategy, it's just like, oh, the Johnson said they didn't know about the Frisbee golf tournament that might they follow us on Facebook. I know that you know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna post an announcement, make sure I never miss an announcement. Here's the thing. The reality is those aren't the type of fees that we have anymore. If you as a page want to get seen, in most cases, you're gonna have to pay, and that's gonna be a sponsored thing.

Nick Clason (05:28):
It's advertisement at that point. So, uh, and you can't do that as a church if you have the budget dollars to do it. And it's advantageous to you to get more people to the Fri be golf tournament. But here's what I would argue. If you are going to start paying, um, then, then what you're looking to do is you are looking to reach a unique audience. And that's the thing that this discoverability, this fy p this four you type thing that TikTok has made famous but has since been adopted by all these other platforms. Um, that is what you have the opportunity to do. You have an opportunity to reach a different audience than those who already follow you. So what you need to know is, number one, uh, it may not be the most advantageous for you to go into your TikTok and just continue to post a video announcements from your church to the things that are aimed at your inside people.

Nick Clason (06:19):
You're gonna wanna post things. If you do, do any sort of announcement type things, um, that are hopefully able for other people that do not go to your church to discover it, to find it, and to hopefully then take a, a next step, an action step towards you or towards your church. One of the other things that makes it fun is that TikTok is all about trends. And so one of the best ways to get discovered is show up in people's FY P is do the things that are already popular on TikTok. And so grab a trend and, and, and put your church event kind of stamp on that thing. If you do want more people at the Frisbee golf tournament, then go on, find what songs are viral, find what trends are happening a lot, how do you do that? Spend time on there.

Nick Clason (07:04):
And if you spend a little bit of time on there as a consumer, um, all you gotta do is just click save, save, save, save, save. Then they'll save onto your profile, whether that be your church profile or your individual profile. Either way, you can kind of go back and create an archived kinda library of things that you don't want to forget. Then use those throughout the week as you're posting. But here's the other thing, beyond just like announcements or beyond just like events, is you now have the opportunity to sit and speak into a camera and broadcast the message of Jesus to those around you. Now, you might be thinking like, that's not a very advantageous strategy because I'm a church located in the local demographic, and I don't want to just reach people that are miles and miles away from my church and will never have the opportunity to attend.

Nick Clason (07:48):
I get that. One thing that's actually really cool that we've discovered about the TikTok algorithm is it actually does prioritize and highlight a local geographical spreading. It's a little bit like a bullseye, and so it'll pump it out to people that follow you first, and if it performs well, it'll pump it out to people in your local geographical region. And then a little bit further and a little bit further, and finally a little bit further can tell you're like all the way viral. If you're obviously all the way viral, it's not, it's gonna be reaching people yes, that are far away from your church, but know that those first couple of layers are a little bit more like localized to where your environment is. And so as we are pro uh, producing and putting more content out on these platforms, I just wanna encourage you to think a little bit differently, think less about the Johnsons who missed the announcement for the Frisbee golf tournament, and be thinking about people who may be far from God, who may not have a faith background just yet.

Nick Clason (08:42):
And how can your church help spread and share the message and hope that's found in Jesus through a simple means and a simple unpolished not, uh, super well produced or super organized selfie style cell phone based video that honestly doesn't take that long for you to do. The opportunity is amazing. I'll just say anecdotally speaking, I started doing this stupid thing on my TikTok where I try and get, um, 2000 total touchdowns from, uh, players who played in the nfl. So I saw a guy do it, and it's got this filter where it puts a team and they cycle through the teams. They go on my forehead and it stops. And then I pick a player, any player that ever played for that franchise, and then I go and I like look up how many total touchdowns they've ever had in their career. My goal is with two quarterback slots, two running back slots, three receiver slots, and two tight end slots to be able, uh, to, to come up with 2000 touchdowns.

Nick Clason (09:39):
It's honestly quite hard. And really, like you have to, you have to get the heaviest hitters, like the top of the quarterback position, top of the running back, top of the receiver to even ever get there. I've done the math, like, is this ever gonna be possible? But those videos have gone freaking bananas, like, I don't understand it. And more and more and more and more and more people are following me and, and like coming into contact with my content. And so now I'm like, Hey, wait a minute. Like now there's a little bit of an audience here. So what if I use this to start helping show, push, promote, and talk about this hybrid ministry digital ministry type of ID idea? And so it's just so fascinating to see how that algorithm works. Like once something catches, it catches and you have absolutely no rhyme or reason or understanding of why that might be the case, but if it does, it does. And so, uh, don't get discouraged. Keep producing, keep saying faithful. Um, and eventually something's gonna pop. And um, it, it's never gonna be the thing that you expect it to be, but once something does, then the things that you do want pushed the things that you do wanna put on your channel, uh, those will become more and more and more accessible, findable, adaptable to your audience.

Nick Clason (10:48):
All right, so what do we do? Uh, with the fact that we, uh, know that our cell phones, we know that our devices are smart technologies are literally flooding our brains with dopamine every single time that we open unlock, um, and light our brains up with just this hit of like, Hey, this is, this is a good thing. And how do we handle that? I wanna approach this on two fronts. Number one, how do we personally handle that? And then number two, um, what does it communicate to the people that go to our church that follow us, that we're trying to promote good, solid, um, healthy practices, not just spiritually healthy, but but physically healthy and emotionally healthy and, um, you know, healthy, uh, like purity wise, like all those types of things. Like how do we handle that is the means. TikTok, for example, probably first and foremost, which has a very addictive, uh, sort of, um, framework built into it.

Nick Clason (11:46):
Does that communicate something that we don't really want to be getting behind or that we want to get, um, that we wanna be, be promoting, uh, to the people that follow us? Well, first and foremost, you need to know, right? That like, that decision lies squarely on a couple people's shoulders, your own that your own personal convictions, um, need to be kinda weighed out and, and challenged, I would say. And also if you go to a church where it's very much frowned upon or you've even been told not to, um, you know, en engage in that sort of platform, um, then those things are gonna kind of be done. Like for you, those decisions have been made for you, especially if it's done at the church level. Um, but how do we personally handle it? I would, I would say that, um, it's probably pretty, uh, tempting to spend just a lot of time on your cell phone, uh, because you are the social media content person.

Nick Clason (12:42):
And so what are the personal boundaries that you need to put in place for that? So, um, just this week, uh, I got a, I got a new phone recently. A couple of things I've tried. I have a Google Pixel, uh, pro seven and every night, 10 o'clock, I turn my phone to a nighttime mode and it turns everything gray, which is an absolutely maddening thing to have happen when you're on your phone and all of a sudden it just flips to gray. But it does, it turns off all that, all that blue light stuff, right, that we know keeps us awake, that keeps our brains kind of like firing and stuff like that. And it hopefully calms it down. It also to me sort of signals like, yo, I start to wind, it's time to start to wind down, you know? Um, and, and it is not an enjoyable thing to look at my phone when it's gray.

Nick Clason (13:26):
The other thing I did was I put timers on certain apps, apps that I was spending, um, more time than I wanted to. You know, you get the screen time report or whatever, so you can put timers now on apps. And so as my, as, uh, in my ministry, I'm the primary content person, so I need to have those social media apps on my phone. Um, at least right now, unless, you know, I get a phone that's purchased only for the church or whatever, but like for right now, I need those on my phone, but I'm only limiting myself. It's like a half an hour a day because, uh, I can get everything I need. I can find content in the future and I can even spend a little bit of time like personally perusing social media. But if I'm on longer than an hour, cuz honestly, um, Instagram a half an hour and TikTok a half an hour, that adds up to an hour.

Nick Clason (14:10):
That's, that's a good chunk of my day, honestly, probably more than I need it to be, you know? Um, and so I may even evaluate that even after talking into this podcast here and, and back that down a little bit. But here's the thing, the reality is this, is that there are tools built into the phones and the devices that, um, that will help you maintain those boundaries. What, what then it really comes down to where the rubber really does meet the road is are you going to honor the, your own boundaries that you at one point in time set for yourself? Or are you gonna break them? Because you can of course go in and change the time or turn it off, snooze it, whatever. Um, but I would challenge you, I would challenge you to do that because we know that, um, it is not better for us to be people that are reliant upon technology.

Nick Clason (14:57):
Technology is a tool. And I would argue that, um, I'm very passionate about this hybrid, um, approach, this digital ministry sort of, um, phenomenon. But the reality is this is, it is simply a tool to share the message and hope of Jesus. And that's it. And if it is abused, then that is, that's not obviously the goal. And so, uh, it's simply a tool. It's simply a vehicle. And you know what? One day there's gonna be something that's more effective. Back when the Apostle Paul was writing the method and the means were letter writing, nowadays we don't really write letters. It would not be that effective for me to write a letter to a 15 year old to try and tell them about the gospel of Jesus. But it might be effective for me to post a 5, 10, 15 second, uh, video that talks about Jesus that they can, um, check out and that we then give them another kind of opportunity to then take a next step and to learn and dive deeper into the message and hope that's found in Jesus.

Nick Clason (15:49):
And so, uh, then that leads me to the next question is the means the message. And I think, yeah, that is a dangerous and potentially very slippery slope. And that's again, something that you have to sort of navigate and wrestle to the ground at your own personal context in which you serve. But if we are wanting to reach people and if we are using this platform to reach people, is it a tool that can be harnessed for good? Absolutely. It absolutely can be used and harnessed for good. Is there evil in it? Sure. Is there bad stuff that you can find on the internet? Absolutely. Is there, uh, evil, evil and and danger when you do, uh, an overnight lock in with a bunch of teenagers and the potential risk for promiscuity and misbehavior and drugs, alcohol and stuff rises also? Yeah. Is it dangerous to get in the car every day and drive to work?

Nick Clason (16:44):
Yeah, it is, right? Like, so there are dangers and so you personally need to be smart. You need to model good digital hygiene. And I would also argue that we should be teaching our teenagers how to do that as well. We should be using that and viewing that as a discipleship moment to help craft and shape them. Like, Hey, how would Jesus handle technology? And um, I think he, I think he would, I think he would use it to exalt and glorify God the father. And honestly, that's what I want to do as well. But as I'm doing that, I don't wanna lose myself. I don't want to become addicted. Um, and I know, like I said, I just got a new phone. I know how addicting it has become. And so that's why I wanna put in more safeguards, more practices for me, uh, to navigate and handle those things well.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Or I wanna talk about the best church YouTube strategy that I can think of. If you don't wanna go all out on a bunch of crazy gear, um, I would recommend this. I would recommend, and I talked about this a couple episodes ago, but I would recommend pre-filing your YouTube, um, your message content. So everything that you deliver every single week, sit down, get in front of the camera that is on the back of your cell phone that is sitting in your pocket right now that you're probably using to listen to or watch this video, okay? And then I would buy one, one primary piece of equipment that you need to get this thing started. A road video mic, m e c usbc, directional microphone for smartphones. Now, if you don't have a USBC connection, then just google the connection that you do have on your Apple iPhone pot, probably because you don't have an Android.

Nick Clason (18:24):
Um, and use that shotgun mic in a controlled environment to have someone sit down in front of a set that looks nice, that has some decent lighting. I guess another, uh, potential piece of equipment that you may need is, um, a tripod to hold your phone up to aim at you or whatever, but prepare your content that you're gonna preach and prepare and teach in front of your congregants, whether it be adult students, whatever your context and deliver it before you get up on the stage to deliver it to the live room. Why? Well, two things. Number one, unless you already have the infrastructure for live streaming, then if you do, I would ignore this part, but if you do not, which, um, I talk to a lot of youth pastors who their churches may be live streaming, but they themselves are not live streaming.

Nick Clason (19:10):
And I would argue that if there is a demographic that's worth, uh, putting content out to it is teenagers, it's Gen Z and soon to be, by the way, cuz they're right on the cusp. Generation alpha, okay? And so we should be trying to reach the natives, our, our teenagers, gen Z Alfa in their native tongue. And that's video that's digital. Now the thing is, you, if you're a youth pastor specifically, you're probably not meeting in the main room where you have access to all the live broadcast equipment. And if you are a church that you are the main pastor and you don't have that equipment yet, then I don't think that that's an issue. Cuz here's a couple of things that we know. The best performing YouTube videos fall somewhere between 12 and 18 minutes. So if you get up and you preach a 35 minute sermon and you post that entire thing to YouTube, that's not exactly, um, optimal for YouTube.

Nick Clason (20:03):
And so what you can do when you pre-fill is you can adapt it so that what you're preaching, you're still preaching the same content, but you're pairing it down so that it fits into that 12 to 18 minute video. It's gonna perform best on YouTube that way. The other thing that it does is it lets you, um, focus on the camera. If you're watching this right now, you're watching me focus directly into the camera. I'm not preaching to a room of people behind me. You have no idea that behind me is, um, a giant bean bag and a chair and a dresser and a baby's crib. Um, that's not what you see, right? You're seeing what I want you to see, which is myself and the chair that I'm sitting in. The reality is that you can do all that. You can create a set, you can create something that looks kind of nice, something that's gonna catch a watcher's eye on, on a platform like YouTube.

Nick Clason (20:47):
And you can speak directly into the camera when you just rip off your live stream, you're catering to the room. I remember when this happened to me one time, I was preaching a large, uh, multi megachurch from the broadcast location. And um, after I got done, the feedback I got was, Hey, pay more attention to the camera, right? Like, when I got up there, my natural propensity was to preach to the people in the room, which is what most of our natural propensities are, but they had a camera in the back and they were live streaming it. And so they're like, don't forget, you need to look down the barrel of that camera. That wasn't a natural experience for me. And if you're gonna start live streaming, that's probably also not a very natural experience for you, I would argue. Um, or at least I, I would make the bet that that's the case, right?

Nick Clason (21:32):
And so what I want to propose and what I want to promote is I want you to just consider and think about what would it look like if you pre-filed your stuff. It would help you, uh, get it to the time and length that it needs to be to perform best on YouTube. And then it would also, uh, help you focus on the audience that's right there on the other side of the camera. The third thing that it does, and this is just um, something that I've, I've personally been experiencing learning and using is, um, it helps me get familiar with my content. So by the time I do step foot on the stage, I'm actually much more comfortable with the content cuz I've already dealt with it. I've already been in it, I've already delivered it one time. Um, and so then that way all I need to do is get up in and deliver it again, live to the room.

Nick Clason (22:18):
But I'm not as, um, I'm not as tied to my notes like I maybe would be otherwise because I've gone through 'em. I'm aware I, you know, I mean like, I get the flow, I get the rhythm. And so if you're a primary communicator, you, you probably understand that being more familiar with your notes than, as opposed to being less familiar. And I mean, a lot of pastors, a lot of good preachers, they do sit down, they do spend some time pouring over their notes before they get up live on the the stage. Why not have just one of those times? It's you doing it to a camera. So then what that does with the, the nice microphone, it gives you good audio, decent video. Even if you don't have the most up to date smartphone. There's a lot of really, really good, um, there's a lot of really, really good, uh, camera phones out there that take really good videos.

Nick Clason (23:02):
And here's the thing, the reality is this video's probably gonna be consumed on a phone, you know what I mean? So, uh, you're shooting it on a phone to another phone, I don't think that's gonna be a gigantic deal. Um, don't let your creative department tell you otherwise. Uh, and then, uh, what that does is that then also helps you as a communicator get another shot at it. So that's my personal right now. Favorite YouTube strategy for 2022, 2023 and beyond. Hey, once again, thank you guys so much for hanging out on this episode. I cannot believe we are into the twenties already. Uh, had had fun having Kerry on the last couple. Um, been fun having a couple guests. Probably gonna try to get a few more guests here and there, but love having this, love having these conversations. Appreciate you all man. It would be amazing if you could give us a, like a rating, um, subscribe so that you get this delivered for free every time to your inbox. Check us out at hybrid ministry, um, on, uh, our hybridministry.xyz on website. Like I said at the top of the show, we have free transcripts that we provide to you for every single episode. Hopefully you find those, um, helpful. Go check them out. And until next time, talk to you later. See you.

Episode 020: Kerry Ray on the limitations of digital ministry, can we overcome it, and how do we help digital immigrants make an impact with digital natives

Nick Clason — Thu, 01 Dec 2022 04:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick finishes up from part 1 of his conversation with Kerry Ray, director of editing and publishing at YM360. Kerry talks about the limitations of digital ministry and how to best navigate some of the new challenges of digital ministry. In addition Kerry shares some of the resources that are available through YM360 for youth pastors who are in the trenches doing ministry.
Follow along at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or any and all other resources at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
For resources from YM360 head to http://www.ym360.com

SHOWNOTES
YM360
YM360
http://www.ym360.com
MINISTRY TO PARENTS
https://ministrytoparents.com/
MY YOUTH MIN
https://myyouthmin.com/

TIMECODES
00:00-03:01 Intro
03:01-05:41 The Limitations of Digital Ministry and How to use what we learned from our time in COVID
05:41-11:10 How do we show up to a place teenagers are native to?
11:10-22:00 If you had a crystal ball, how does digital and hybrid ministry need to adjust as we go forward?
22:00-26:55 What resources are available to Youth Pastors?
26:55-27:53 Final encouragement from Kerry to ministry leaders
27:53-31:07 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What is up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. And hey, if you were here for episode, uh, 19, the most recent one that we dropped, it was a part one of an interview with my great friend, um, Kerry Ray, who was on staff at YM 360. He, after 30 years of work inside the local church, has decided to step into more of a role where he's, um, serving the youth pastor, um, and people who are in the trenches doing ministry. So not only does he come with a wealth of personal hands on, boots on the ground, kind of firsthand experience and knowledge of reaching teenagers, um, and seeingDigital Ministry, Contact Work, Relational Ministry, Discipleship, Student Ministry, Youth Ministry, META Church, Streaming Church, TikTok, Social Media life before digital was introduced. Uh, the way he puts it was, um, I'm a digital immigrant versus now doing ministry to people who are digital natives. And so, uh, we're gonna dive into part two of this interview, but I would recommend if you have not heard, go back to part one because he introduces this idea, um, that's not, you know, it's not from him alone, right?

Nick Clason (01:08):
But like, he introduces this idea of a thing called contact work. And contact work is basically the basic premise of going to where people are as opposed to hoping that they will always just come to us, right? If we build it, if it's so beautiful, if it's so shiny and amazing, they will come to us. So he introduces that idea. Um, and now we're gonna kind of explore is that idea of ministry possible, uh, to do digitally. And I would argue that him and I agree for the most part, but I think that, um, we have to sort of like nuance our way into it. Which honestly, it's an interesting dichotomy. And even in having the conversation, I think is how most people feel about digital ministry. I think at a knee jerk reaction, there's this, oh no, you can't do that digitally because discipleship and ministry is best done life on life.

Nick Clason (02:00):
And for the record, I agree with that. Like, I want people that I can physically touch, hug, like sit and eat a knee, have a cup of coffee. Like, here's a great example. Right now, my wife is gone. She's, uh, visiting her mom back home in Ohio. I'm in Texas. We have a relationship. We've video or FaceTimed four times this week, uh, or four times a day, I should say. Um, every day that she's been gone, we've texted late at night, like, we have a relationship, but good grief, like, I wanna give my wife a hug. You know what I mean? Like, there's, it's obviously better together. However, my cell phone is making it possible to remain in contact with my wife. And, and so I think like when you put it that way, you're like, well, yeah, of course. Like, so then how do we add some intentionality?

Nick Clason (02:47):
And we talk about safety, some parameters. What does it look like, um, to do ministry in this way? So I'm really excited for you to check out part two. Again, if you haven't checked out part one, go back and listen to it. Um, and without any further ado, here is part two of our conversation. I mean, honestly, the entire basis right of this podcast is, is what's called the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Because I think what we've learned, at least the way I felt, and I was a part Kerry of an attractional based church during C and so we put together, in my opinion, the best youth ministry online experience that existed. But no one cared because the contact work didn't exist. And so it's, but then what happened right, was this argument, this tug and this tug and pull, like in c everyone was forced to go all the way digital.

Nick Clason (03:37):
And so we all did, we all went all in to the best of our abilities. And then once the restrictions started to lift, the pendulum swung almost so hard because we all saw the effects of not being together and how valuable that is. And so it almost swung like, let's, let's throw the baby out with the bath water and all the good things that we learned from that time period from being fully digital and having, you know, our like proverbial hands tied behind our back. Like I, so I went to a place where a, um, I was a campus student pastor. I didn't speak. Um, and we didn't speak even pre covid. We had a video speaker, um, every week cuz there's universal across all campuses. And I can give you my opinions about that later. But that was, that was one hand tie behind my back.

Nick Clason (04:26):
The second hand tie behind my back was that I wasn't allowed to meet with students. So Ty, what I feel like both hands tie behind my back, all right, now you're the youth pastor here, go do youth ministry. And I was like, how? But that literally forced me right? To just rethink everything. And for literally six months to nine months, I had to navigate that world with both a handstand behind my back. And maybe that is what, and as I'm talking this out with you, maybe that's what has prompted my passion around this because I realized there's some good things you can do digitally, but it can't replace what's done physically. And so I think we gotta find that, that hybrid I think contact, I think, yeah, yeah. At its core happens in person. But think about, you know, when you started out in ministry, you couldn't grab a phone and text that student and be like, Hey, how'd that test go?

Nick Clason (05:20):
You didn't have that. You had to rely on a physical meetup, the football game, youth group, whatever, to make that happen. And so we, we can live in that digital space and bow borrow off the equity that we have from what happens in person. And so how do we enter into there effectively, like you said, cuz that's what Jesus did. He showed up. We can now show up in ways that teenagers are, to your point, native to how do we do that? What are the, what, what does that look like? I think we're all trying to figure that out.

Kerry Ray (05:53):
I, I think we are A couple of things. You, you said one I wanted to say, I don't know if your, your listeners understand or know about you that you walked into a church as a youth pastor, right? As this whole thing started, or that whole thing started. And so immediately you were trying, you, you, they didn't even know who you were. So you were trying to introduce yourself in a digital way, uh, to a group of people who didn't know you at all. Um, and that was interesting. Um, but the other thing you said, um, you mentioned about, um, we snapped back, the pendulum swung back. Mm-hmm. , can we be honest? I think the reason why the pendulum swung back so quickly is because we were so many people were terrible at one of it, at one side of it. Yeah. And it was failing so badly and they were terrible at it.

Kerry Ray (06:40):
Well, it's not familiar. The second well, yeah. And the second that that ended, they they run back to what, you know Yeah. As fast as you can, because I'm terrible at this. So we did, you threw the baby out with the bath water because you were like, one, I'm not good at it. Two, um, nobody likes to do stuff. They're not good. Right. So I'm not good at it. I don't wanna do it. I just wanna get as far away from it as possible. Let's go back to what we know when it was working. Let's go back to the stuff that I was confident in doing. Let's just run back to that. But if Covid showed us anything, it is, there needs to be, to your point, a hybrid. There needs to be both. And there are students that are out there that we can, you know, need to say hello to digitally.

Kerry Ray (07:22):
We do need to learn how to utilize that digital space better. Um, and this is another thing I was thinking as you were, as you were saying that is, you know, in the physical contact work mm-hmm. , there were boundaries and rules. Um, uh, especially in ministry. You know, you, you had, there's, there were certain things you could do and you, there were certain things you put boundaries on and said, Hey, contact work means this. It does not mean, you know, driving a female or even a male by yourself and go, oh yeah, that's contact work. No, that's, that's potential jail time. That's what that is. . Um, so you don't, you don't do those things. I think in digital. Um, you mentioned texting a student, Hey, how'd that test go? Mm-hmm. . Um, I know with our small group leaders, they were very nervous mm-hmm. and still are.

Kerry Ray (08:12):
Cause we don't know the boundaries. Um, do you text a student? Is that okay? Um, because what if their parent is not cool with, um, you know, a 35 year old texting a 14 year old mm-hmm. . Um, how was your day? Um, you know, that can, that can kinda be weird. Uh, so there are some boundaries there. Do you hang out? You know, I can go to a football, I can go to a middle school football game and I could be there as a student pastor and I can see my kids that I see, I can meet their friends. This, there again, young life does a great job of this. You know, I can be intentional about meeting people. I'm in a public space. There's other people around. Yep. That is very different than me logging into Call of Duty intentionally and playing in a chatroom of, you know, a bunch of 14 year old guys and girls that I don't know.

Nick Clason (09:06):
Yeah.

Kerry Ray (09:06):
That's, that's different. And maybe the digital immigrant in me has that trigger goes, this is weird. Yeah. Uh, maybe that's the digital immigrant in me versus the digital native, but there's some oddity there. And so we've gotta figure out not just a balance of how do we, how do we engage that way, but what are the boundaries? What are the best practices? What are the safety protocols that need to be in place in a digital format to where you're not the weirdo, you're not the weird old guy or the weird old girl hanging out, you know, in a chatroom or in a, in a digital space. Um, the internet has been great, but it's also shown us that it's highly dangerous and that it is full of predators. And not to say that the football, the middle school football game stands, that there's not predators out there as well sitting in those, in those bleachers.

Kerry Ray (10:02):
But it's, society sees it differently in a digital space. Um, because right now that is where a lot of the ugly stuff is happening. Um, so all that to say is we don't need to abandon it. We do need to be careful. Mm-hmm. , we do need to engage, but to do it with boundaries and guidelines in place. And we need to, if you're in the church world, you need to set your people up well because they don't know. And they're trying to do what you're, you're telling them, Hey, do contact work. Hey, engage, Hey, be a part of these, these students' lives. And they do. But you gotta give them the boundaries of the protocol so that they know and they have confidence in how to interact in that digital space. One, they're already digital native more than likely. And two, it's an awkward space that they're unfamiliar with. And three, they need to feel safe. Just like if you sent them into a football game and said, Hey, I want you to hit at least one football game. Here's what you do in that space. Here's what you don't do in that space. You need to do the same thing with them in a digital context.

Nick Clason (11:10):
Yeah. So, from the seat you're sitting in now, um, what, if anything, like do you see about how covid, digital, hybrid, any of that stuff, how is it influencing and impacting ministry leaders? Cause you're sitting in a unique seat where you are helping serve the type of person that you were for the last 30 years. So what are you noticing? What are you hearing? What are the pain points? What are people asking? What are people trying to figure out? What are things that you're seeing? And then what do you maybe envision or see as, uh, a future maybe, maybe in like a year, but also maybe in the next five, 10 years of ministry, student ministry and all that stuff?

Kerry Ray (11:55):
Yeah. What I'm seeing is I get to speak to youth pastors in multiple states, in multiple denominations. Um, people who have been doing it for 20 plus years, 10 years. I was at Arkansas this past weekend and a room of, you know, 25, 30 guys and girls, um, who do youth ministry. And, um, there were some that were full-time. There were some that were, you know, part-time. There were some that were bivocational. Um, there were some that had been doing this for 10 years, eight years, 20 years. And then a couple of the couple of them are like, yeah, this is month three. Yeah. Um, , you just go, woo. Um, but I think they're all struggling with the same thing, which is what we've been talking about this whole time, is how to balance, um, how to juggle the digital aspect versus the physical aspect and, and what is contact work and how to, how do I create things that people wanna be a part of that students wanna be a part of?

Kerry Ray (12:55):
How do I program? Um, you know, a lot of 'em are just trying to figure out, how do I do any of this? I'm just winging it. How do I get support and momentum and, um, those pieces without even the digital piece involved. Um, but yeah, that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing people struggling. I'm seeing people trying to navigate this return from shut down to non shut and the, and the damage that has been done in the, in, in that. And I am seeing people try to figure out how to engage in a new way, a new group of people, um, being, you know, this, this group of, um, of Gen Z students who are still around, and then this incoming crop of generation alpha students who are currently, uh, sixth, seventh. And depending on the age, you've got a couple eighth graders that are young ones mm-hmm. .

Kerry Ray (13:48):
Um, but just trying to, how, how do I, how do I engage them? How do we, how do we, um, provide them with, with the things they need? And there again, I know this has nothing to do with digital, but what I'm really seeing the most, uh, in the youth ministry space is the audience has shifted so much in that culturally it's a different world. Um, there's a lot more questions. They're open to a lot more things. They, um, and, and pastors are trying to figure out, for example, you know, how do you teach in a ministry context? How do you teach a teenager about the word of God? Which is absolute truth when the generation doesn't believe in such a thing is absolute truth. Mm-hmm. , how do you do that? Um, how do you, you know, how do you, so many youth pastors are preaching about characters in the Bible or things that were happening scripturally.

Kerry Ray (14:45):
And they'll say, you know, well, well, Moses, so and so and so and so and so and so as if the people listening to them know who that is, is without stopping to say, let me tell you who this is, because they're, again, the nuns in os they were raised by a group of parents who didn't grow them up in, in scripture. So they don't know. And so our, our mistake is, or the mistakes I'm seeing, or pastors speaking in a, in a phrase like, say, like I said, well, Moses, you know Moses, they don't, yeah. They're like, yeah, the guy with the boat, they're like, no, that's Noah

Nick Clason (15:16):
,

Kerry Ray (15:17):
But we have to pause. We have to slow down and teach mm-hmm. . And I think we have to do that. I think technology, um, Instagram, social media, TikTok, I, I love, I love, and I hate what I'm seeing right now on TikTok. Um, and if you're not on TikTok, you need to at least look at it. Mm-hmm. . Um, if I can encourage, if a youth pastor's listening, if I can encourage you, I know it's, you know, it's the devil. I get it. But at least be familiar with it. Yeah. At least engage. And I know your church probably has a stance on it. And, and I'll warn you, there's things, you're gonna see some stuff on there. That algorithm is incredible. Um, you only need to pause for a second and it'll feed you more of that. Um,

Nick Clason (15:59):
So yeah, listen, here's the best TikTok hack, by the way. If you start it and they start feeding you stuff you don't want, hold your, hold the video down, click, not interested, do that two or three times and it's gone forever. Like I'm telling you, can, you can game that algorithm, uh, the way each can, the way you'll, you want,

Kerry Ray (16:17):
I'll see a better TikTok hack. Don't sign up for an account

Nick Clason (16:21):
or

Kerry Ray (16:22):
That, cause that way every time you, every time you log off the, turn the app off, you turn it back on, you get the most stuff. It's new every time. Um, but what, what I was gonna say about, about TikTok was some of the greatest things I'm seeing is, is student ministries, youth pastors, pastors utilizing that technology and teaching theology. Yeah. And, and, and, um, you know, there's a couple guys that do like the, you know, one minute sermon, um, and stuff that excellent content mm-hmm. this, the negative side of that is I'm seeing that the same thing with terrible theology mm-hmm. . Um, and I would say that group of people are using it very well. And our students, there, again, keep in mind your kids don't know the difference. They don't. Yeah. Um, and so they're watching things on TikTok that are, let's call it, you know, 30% true.

Kerry Ray (17:22):
Uh, and then it just kinda hangs, hangs hangs the right or hangs the left and, and goes crazy. Um, you know, I watched somebody the other day talking about, you know, Jesus, you know, Jesus's name wasn't Jesus. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, good. This is good. And then they kept going. They kept going. They like, so Jesus wasn't really God, he was just the, and I'm like, oh, no, no, because it started off, it started off really strong and going, yeah, this is good. This is good. Let's teach them these things. You know, there weren't really three wise men as far as we know. There were, there were wise men that showed up. Great. Great. So, you know what they were, they were really these things. They were Illuminati No, they were not Illuminati. You know, just, just crazy stuff. Um, where do I think it's going?

Kerry Ray (18:08):
I I definitely think, you know, the, the, those of us who are digital, uh, immigrants we're aging out. Um, more and more digital natives. Um, that's the way the world works, right. You know, more kids are being born more, more babies and children are being handed iPhones and iPads as pacifiers and are growing up with it. And that is a thing. And it can be good or it can be bad. And, and I guess my biggest takeaway would be, or challenge would be this, don't build a moat. There's no mo big enough. Whether you're talking to parents or whether you're trying to do your own ministry piece. Don't build a moat and try to protect everybody from technology. That's, it's foolish. You're not, that's, that's not a winnable battle. No. Um, I think what we need to focus on is redeeming that culture and redeeming technology and saying, how can I take what is, what is, how can I take who these students are and meet them where they are versus where we wish they were?

Kerry Ray (19:11):
Um, meet them where they are and redeem this technology and utilize it in a way for the glory of God and for, for the, for the right reasons. The right purposes. And try to try to really point to him using technology and use it to reach students. Use it to disciple students. Use it to, um, bring and share Jesus to students who may never, ever step foot in your church door, but they may be scrolling through TikTok and just happened to come across a video where you talk about this God man who loved you so much that he gave himself for you on your behalf, so that you could have eternal life. And it may, here's what I find interesting about students in this generational speech that we're in right now. There's no reason for a teenager to show up to the things you're doing.

Kerry Ray (20:05):
Mm-hmm. , there's just no reason for it. Yeah. But they still are. They're showing up to these things. And it's not because you got a great Instagram account. They're showing up to these things because they have an internal intrinsic curiosity about spiritual things that I believe that God has placed in them from creation to seek him out. Yeah. And they're showing up because that curiosity is itching and they're trying to figure out a way to scratch it. And they're just curious enough to still listen and use, use Instagram and TikTok all you want, but use it to scratch that curiosity in them that is God given. And let God be God and God do the things. We don't save people anyway. We never have, we haven't done it physically and we're not gonna do it digitally. Um, that's not, that's not for us, but utilize the, the tools that we have in front of us to continue to do the things that we are called to doop.

Kerry Ray (21:06):
Um, so yes, technology is out there. It is, it is doing its thing. Um, don't run from it. Don't build a mote to protect people from it, whether they're your own kids or not. Utilize it. Teach people how to use it. Teach people how to be safe with it. Set your volunteers up to utilize it. Well give them boundaries. Help them to, to do this thing well. Um, you know, show them how to do it and show your church how to do it. Show all the digital immigrants how to do it. Um, and lead, lead there. Lead from lead from the backseat. Um, especially if you're watching this, listen to this. Sorry. If you're listening to this as a, as a digital, uh, native, help people learn how to do this and to do it right. And to do it well. And not to be afraid of it. Cause I think the biggest thing is fear. Um, but yeah. Mean, sorry, man. I got, I've got on my soapbox for a minute, but

Nick Clason (21:58):
No, that was really good. I just, that was a great, that was a great place to land it. Why don't you, uh, you know, this has been a very youth ministry centric conversation, which admittedly so, and we, we let you guys know that at the beginning. Tell 'em about, uh, everything, you know, what, how can they engage with stuff over at YM 360. What are some of the resources that you, you all are producing to help, to help people in this space right now?

Kerry Ray (22:20):
Yeah. For, um, we, we create things. Our, our whole point is to make the things, to make youth ministry youth pastors wear a lot of hats. It's, it's hard. Um, I told those guys in girls in Arkansas, uh, this past weekend, youth ministry's harder than it's ever been. And it's not easy. Yeah. But we have more opportunity than we've ever had had because there are so many blank canvases out there who don't know. There's not a lot of, um, church baggage in teenagers right now, cuz they never went. Um, they read about it, they see it online, but, you know, they see people deconstructing and talking about it, but they don't have it themselves. A lot of them, because they, they haven't engaged yet. So, gosh, there's so much out there. Um, and why do sixty.com if you wanna check that out? Uh, there's tons of resources, uh, for you.

Kerry Ray (23:10):
There's, we post blog articles every single Monday. You can check out that kinda stuff. Um, I think that the, the best things that you can be a part of right now that we work on is we have two big platforms that we put out every month. New content for one of those is called ministry parents.com, ministry to parents.com. And it's not for parents, it's for you to help parents. So if you're in ministry, uh, and you're trying to help equip parents to be better parents in their home and to be, and to help those no e s's raise students in a way that points them to Jesus, um, we provide you with all the stuff. We do it all for you. Uh, we write all your emails, we, we curate all the content for you. It's really just point and click and paste and send.

Kerry Ray (24:00):
And we do it all for you. Uh, all of us know that we're supposed to partner with parents. None of us really know what that means. Um, and so and so we're trying to figure it out. And you know, what usually keeps us as student pastors from it is either we don't have kids of our own. And we go, well, I'm not legit. There's no way I'm gonna look at a parent and go, you know what you should do with that 14 year old? Cause they're gonna look at me and go, yeah, you tell me about that buddy. Or by the time we are legitimate, we realize that curating content for parents as far as what they need is a full-time job. Yep. And we can't do all that. And so that's what ministry parents does. Ministry parents.com. And then we just launched a brand new platform for training and development of youth pastors, um, that talks about all of this kind of stuff on the regular, every month we provide you with, gosh, 2026 plus pieces of content that's brand new every month that talks about everything from volunteers to parents, to technology, to other disruptors that are in that you're dealing with.

Kerry Ray (25:04):
Um, the whole point of it is to help you grow, lead and thrive in ministry. It is, it is all about developing you as a person. Um, you could check that out as well. It is my youth min.com, my youth min.com. It is, it is worth it. It's worth checking that out. Um, all those are subscription based stuff, but it's, it's not expensive. So whether you're full-time, part-time, uh, big church, small church, um, multi-site, multi staff, or you're flying solo, um, it is something that you can utilize. Um, and anytime, you know, my I am available, like I said, I tell people all the time, let me be that guy. Let me be the person that when you're struggling and you need somebody to talk to, when you are excited, when you're new and, and going, I don't know if this is the right way to do this or not, uh, I'm available.

Kerry Ray (25:54):
And, and more than happy to talk to you, I, I stepped out a student ministry proper to take this YM 360 role to give myself the ability to have these conversations like we're having the day, uh, with youth pastors, youth workers, uh, all over the place. So my email address is Kerry kr y com. Um, or you can catch me on Twitter and Instagram, uh, K R two, and then the letter you k um, I, I don't have TikTok. I just have a blank account so I can keep up with what's going on, but nobody wants to see me do Renegade or any of the dances anyway, so I know Charlie de that's, it's true, it's true. I should be on Dancing With the Stars, but I'm a, I'm no TikTok dancer day. So Yeah, day one day it's my aspiration. . Uh, yeah. So please, please hit me up and lemme hear from you. Any questions you ever have, anything you ever need, or if you just need to be encouraged and say don't, because here's, here's the deal, Nick, I just want people to know that there's less people joining into the student ministry rights than there used to be. Hmm. And, uh, we need more people than ever before. And so, yeah.

Kerry Ray (27:10):
You know, um, gosh, I'm going blank on that. Josh ship is the guy who said, you know, every student needs one caring adult. Yeah. Every student is one caring adult away from being a success. Um, and so, man, we need so many caring adults out there who are willing to see students, to love students where they are versus where they wish they were. That's good. And, and just to jump in and say, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm willing to let somebody show me the ropes. So

Nick Clason (27:43):
This stuff, man. Hey, I appreciate it. Thanks for your, uh, absolutely your time today from, uh, Birmingham Hotel Room. It's been great.

Kerry Ray (27:51):
. Thank you very much, man. Thanks for having me.

Nick Clason (27:55):
Wow. Well, man, I hope that you guys found that interesting and fascinating. Uh, hey, uh, in the show notes, wherever you get podcasts, you should be able to, uh, see the links to all the things that Kerry was talking about and all the resources that are available. If you are not a youth pastor, thank you for sitting through just a couple of old timey youth pastors chatting up, doing ministry, talking about ministry. But if you know someone who is in, in particular, man, I would really encourage you to share with him the ministry to parent and the, um, my Youth men, um, platform. Share those links with them. It's something that can be really, really helpful. Uh, we talked about this a little bit, um, off off Mike, Kerry and I, well, once we hung up. But my youth min, honestly, guys, it is conference level training.

Nick Clason (28:42):
And so if you're a youth pastor and you're in a small church without a giant budget, like it's behind a paywall, however, it is far cheaper than if you got a plane, got a hotel, um, and paid for a conference ticket somewhere across country or whatever, and you have access to it. Like, I don't know if you heard, he's like 20 something pieces of new content every single month. So there is conference level training very available at your fingertips, very accessible. Um, and so that's a budget saver, you know, and so I think leaders who wanna be learning, um, are growing super helpful. So check that out for sure. I am a, I'm a contributor to it, so, um, shamelessly love to have you check it out. Um, but anyway, uh, appreciate you guys, uh, listening. And if you're anything like me and you listen to podcasts on the go, I do it when I'm, I'm running, I do it when I'm driving, and I do it when I'm on the lawn doing the dishes.

Nick Clason (29:37):
The reality is, um, Kerry said so much good stuff in there and I would hate, hate for you to miss it. And so we, for free provide, uh, transcripts for every single episode. You can check those out at hybridministry.xyz or just, uh, read through it in your podcast catcher so that you're able to just see what's going on and, uh, hear what's going on and maybe take some notes, um, and take some of the things that you heard in your ears and put it to paper if you need it. Um, for conversations or for meetings with, uh, upper level leadership or whatever the case may be. We just wanna serve you and help you win in your area of ministry. So you can check that out at hybridministry.xyz. We're also on Twitter at hybrid ministry. We'd love to have you come hang out with us. And hey, listen, if you found this helpful one way that you could really help us out, um, a gigantic favor for us would just be male.

Nick Clason (30:26):
If you could give us a like, or a rating or a review, that would be very beneficial, help us pay it forward, um, and help you maybe pay it forward even to some other people who, who wanna help uncover and find this information. So, once again, grateful for you, thankful for you. Um, hope you guys have a great rest of your day, wherever you are, whatever you might be doing, and we pray that this is helping, um, make digital discipleship just a little bit easier for you in your ministry context. Until next time, talk to you later guys. Bye.

Episode 019: Kerry Ray on doing ministry like Jesus did, and how technology has changed the way we ministry and communicate to teenagers in Gen Z and Gen Alpha and beyond

Nick Clason — Thu, 24 Nov 2022 04:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this episode Nick sits down with his friend, and YM360 General Editor and Content Director, Kerry Ray. Kerry is a veteran with over 3 decades of experience in church ministry, all in student ministry. Kerry and Nick talk about the ways in which technology has changed and shaped the ways of doing ministry. And Kerry also talks about the importance of going to a teenager's "turf" or showing up in their life, relationally.
Come hang out with us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or grab show notes and transcripts at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

SHOWNOTES
YM360
http://www.ym360.com
MINISTRY TO PARENTS
https://ministrytoparents.com/
MY YOUTH MIN
https://myyouthmin.com/
EPISODE 016 ON HOW THE IPHONE CHANGED THINGS WITH DERRY PRENKERT
https://merry-swamp-3547.fireside.fm/016

TIMECODES
00:00-02:49 Intro
02:49-05:55 Kerry's Intro and Experience
05:55-09:12 What it's like no longer being in the trenches of ministry
09:12-13:44 What was life in ministry like before the cell phone and after?
13:44-16:22 Is technology what created FOMO?
16:22-21:00 What is contact work?
21:00-32:58 Can we use technology to our advantage in ministry efforts?
32:58-34:27 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Hey, what is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, episode 19. We've been doing 19 of these. I can't freaking believe it in your catcher. It might be 20, because we posted as Double Zero pilot. I kind of hate when people do that, and then I, I went and did it. So, anyway, uh, as always, I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be with you. And today you're in for a treat because number one, I'm not just gonna ramble in your ear holes the entire time, like I have been for the last several episodes, but two, I'm bringing on one of my really good friends. His name is Kerry Ray. He is the director of editing and publications right now at YM 360, which is, YM Youth Min, right? Youth Ministry 360. And he has 30 years of church ministry experience, particularly in the student ministry and youth ministry space.

Nick Clason (00:58):
So, let me caveat all of that to say this is a ministry podcast, not specific in particular to youth ministry. However, that being said, um, you know that I am a 12 year youth ministry veteran, and so a lot of my connections and conversations come in the youth ministry space. And so, um, I just will caveat all this to say that today is going to be a very youth ministry centric conversation. Um, but all of it is going to be couched sort of in, uh, digital, right? And, and so what Kerry is gonna be talking about, um, and what I did is I, we had an interview and it went really well, and it went really long. And so I decided, I think I'm actually gonna bite, uh, split this up into two more bite size pieces. And so, episode one is gonna come out this week, episode two, or part two of this, I should say, is gonna drop on Thanksgiving Day, so you can enjoy it on the way to your, um, grandmother's house over the river and through the woods.

Nick Clason (01:59):
So in this first part in particular, he's gonna talk a little bit about his experience, um, what he's seen and how he's seen digital play a role in that. And then he talks about, um, a thing that I first learned from him, but he says he's still primarily from young Life called contact work, right? And if you've been around this podcast at all, you've known, we talked about showing up where they are, um, which is what Jesus did, honestly, right? He, he showed up where we were, he put on skin, he became human. And so that's what he talks about, and he kind of gives the basis for it and why it's important. Um, and so that's gonna be today. Um, so hopefully you enjoy it. And so, without any further ado, we're gonna get started. And you'll notice just how well I am as a host when we plan this thing, when you hear how we get started. So here we go. 3, 2, 1. Check it out. Hey,

Kerry Ray (02:50):
Is whoa gonna go first on,

Nick Clason (02:53):
Man? Come on. Doesn't even listen to instructions.

Kerry Ray (02:57):
I did. I thought you said, I'll do a thing later. And then you go ahead and introduce

Nick Clason (03:02):
Yourself. I'm keeping all this in. This is Kerry, everybody. Kerry, introduce yourself to the tens and tens of listeners that I have.

Kerry Ray (03:10):
Hey, tens of listeners. My name is Kerry Ray. I am the director of publishing for Y M 360 in Birmingham, Alabama. Uh, YM 360 Youth Ministry 360. Uh, before that, uh, this is my first year actually as a director of publishing, whatever that means. Uh, I did, uh, before that, I did, uh, right about three decades in the student ministry seat, um, in multiple denominations of churches, in churches, multiple states, uh, different sizes, churches, different size, not sizes, different size churches, um, multisites single sites, uh, single sites that wanted to be multisite, uh, . I've been, I've been around the block and, and seen a lot of things, man. Um, but yeah, I've been in the youth ministry for right at 30 years. And, um, this was my first, actually at the time of this recording, this was my, this last Easter was my first Easter, uh, in, in here in 2022, was my first Easter in 30 years, not to be on staff at a church.

Kerry Ray (04:15):
So it was quite the different thing to sit in there as a regular person who could see all the things going wrong, but uh, was not responsible for, for fixing any of them. Um, and so it was great. It was, it was really great. Um, it's weird now on Saturday nights after, you know, you get in a routine for 30 years. Uh, Saturday nights are kind of a weird thing because you go to church on Sunday mornings, but you're not going to work, you know, to do all the things. Um, so, and you go with a family on, on a Sunday morning, it's whole thing. Just a different world, man. So I've, uh, like I said, I've been, I got to wife 360 in October of 2022, um, and started a, a new thing. We, we work in, uh, Y 360, if you don't know, we're, we're part, um, publishing.

Kerry Ray (05:06):
And, uh, we create content for student ministries, youth ministries, all over the world to use. Um, and we also do camps. We have a, a generate by Y 360, uh, which does camp all across different locations. We had this last summer, summer of 2022. We, I believe we were in 20, 23 or 24 locations, um, running camps, 20. We had three different teams spread out all over. Uh, so it was great. My, my section of that, we create all of the, uh, written material, all the devotional material, all of the, um, all the written material for camps. Um, so yeah, it's been a lot of fun. It's very different. And then I get to, uh, coach student ministries, youth pastors, all across the place. Um, I've been doing that for around seven years, so, yeah. Nice. Yeah. Lot of fun. Lot of fun.

Nick Clason (05:59):
So let me ask you this, just, this isn't one of the questions I sent you. I'm already going off script, but, uh, do you enjoy Saturday nights and Sunday mornings not being responsible for stuff, or is there like an element of you that misses it at all?

Kerry Ray (06:15):
Oh, absolutely. I think anytime you do something for a significant amount of your life, um, there's a part of you that missed that, um, that misses, um, you know, just being around and, and, and knowing all the faces and knowing who's where. And, um, yeah, there's just part of it that you kind of miss a little bit of it. There's some part, and maybe this will make sense for some of you listening who've done anything for a significant amount of time, there's parts that you miss that you don't know why you miss, or you don't even know what you miss. You just say something's weird and off and just seems a little different. Um, yeah. But yeah, there, there's pieces and parts. There's definitely pieces and parts that I don't miss.

Kerry Ray (06:56):
You know, I don't miss, you know, being gone all day on a Sunday. Um, I don't miss, um, I the whole getting to be a part like you go as a family and do stuff with as a family, uh, that's really brand new. Yeah. Um, and, and it's, it's been great. My, my kids, I, my wife and I have two kids. We have an eight year old and a 14 just turned 14 a couple days ago. And so this is such a significant time in both of their lives mm-hmm. that it is great to be, you know, just a dad and not a staff member. Um, and to get, to get to sit in, I'll tell you, you know, a little bit of a confession. It's also difficult. Um, we're at a smaller church now, and, um, having been in large church ministry for so long, um, now that my daughter is participating in ministry, and, you know, that ministry is, you know, trying to figure itself out and mm-hmm. and, and go through all the, you know, all the growing pains of, of a growing ministry. And I'm sitting on the sidelines and thinking, gosh, , that's awkward. I can help that, but I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna white knight, you know, come in when my, on my high horse and, and quote unquote fix it for them. Especially with,

Nick Clason (08:16):
You're fixing it as the YM 360 guy. Are you fixing it as Madison dad, as dad? Are you fixing it as a church volunteer? Like, what, yeah. What's

Kerry Ray (08:26):
Your role, right? Or are you fixing as the guy that quote unquote knows it all right. So, you know, you don't, you don't wanna be that guy. Um, so yeah, it's, it's just been, it's been weird. That's, that's kind of the honest thing is to have done a thing, and I think this is true at anything, not just ministry, but having, you know, if you were, if you were a cabinet maker and you walked in and people were, you know, fumbling around with a hammer trying to build a cabinet, and you're just biting your, you know, biting your closed fist, going, oh, no, that's not how you, you do it . Um, so it, it's that, I mean, and not saying that they're not doing a great job. Um, they are, they're doing well in figuring it out. They're just, you know, figuring it out. Um, and they're going through some, some growing pain in that process. So yeah, that's, that's what we're doing as a family right

Nick Clason (09:13):
Now. So I'm, I'm curious, Kerry, like two or three episodes ago, I'll link it, you know, in the show notes, but I had, uh, my friend d Pinker on, and we talked about, um, how he, he has a similar longevity track record that you do, and he talked about how the invention of the iPhone was a pretty monumental, like, milestone marker for him in youth ministry. Like he kinda remembers ministry before the invention, um, and widespread use of the iPhone, and then post the invention and widespread use of the iPhone. Do you have, would you say you have a similar, um, experience with that? Like, did you, did you notice that being a pretty big milestone thing in student ministry and in your career noticing how students interacted? Did that change things? Did you, um, have to program or think about things differently because of technology and it's, you know, interwoven into the culture?

Kerry Ray (10:11):
Um, honestly, I, I think the iPhone changed not programming so much as it changed, um, advertising. And I know that's a big no-no word. You know, in the church world, you're not supposed to see the things you're doing as a quote unquote product or something you are promoting. Um, but you are, you're, you're promoting a thing, um, come be a part of this, whether it's a camp, a Wednesday night, a Sunday morning, you are trying to tell people this is a thing we have, um, otherwise you're sitting there by yourself. Um, and so I think it changed, I think it changed dramatically how we engaged with, with students. Hmm. , um, I don't think so much at all. It, it really changed programming. Um, but it definitely changed the way we engaged. It definitely changed, um, the level of intentionality that you had to put behind, uh, promotion and how you promoted and how you celebrated.

Kerry Ray (11:15):
Uh, it also gave you kind of an open door, you know, whether you want it to be or not. A lot of youth ministry is word of mouth. Yeah. Um, I always used to kinda call it the skating rink effect when I was a kid. You know, the skating rink was, was a thing. , sadly, that'll show you my age. The skating rink was a thing, and we didn't, in middle school specifically, you didn't know why it was a thing. Yeah. You just knew that's where everybody was. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, but it was word of mouth, you know? It was, it wasn't the, the skating rink when I grew up, the skating, it was called fun time, skate land. Uh, it wasn't that fun time. Skateland had this giant marketing, you know, this this monumental system or this, this thing that they were doing. They were like, come to fun time.

Kerry Ray (12:01):
It was just, it was word of mouth. And the middle school, you know, that that's where everybody was going on on a Friday night. They were going to fun time. And you talked about it in the hallways, and people do, and I think in cinema ministry, whether we want it to be or not, it, it's always been a word of mouth. You know, I'm, you know, why do, why do so many kids show up to this one event, this all nighter that you do? Well, because the word got out that these people are going and the other people wanna go. And then it snowballs into this thing. Um, and I think the word of mouth became digital. Word of mouth. Um, and you could, you could digitally have a megaphone to, to broadcast that thing versus just relying on word of mouth. Yeah. Um, and so that changed the game.

Kerry Ray (12:47):
So it changed. Um, the only thing I would say in programming, uh, uh, that it would change was that you had to be, or you started to be a little more intentional about recording the things that you were doing mm-hmm. and putting them out there for people to see later. Yeah. Uh, and to advertise with. Um, that's probably the only way it really changed. And I would say it changed programming. It would just, Hey, we want to capture certain things. And so we would talk about, as a team, uh, what are the things we wanna maybe capture tonight and, and broadcast so that people can see it and try to leverage the fomo, you know, the, the, that FOMO piece mm-hmm. is, is a real deal, the invention of the iPhone, Instagram, now TikTok, um, even, even be, you know, be real. It is that FOMO piece of what's happening in the moment. Who's doing what, Ooh, I wanna be a part of that. Mm-hmm. , that's what changed. I think that's what changed.

Nick Clason (13:45):
So would you say before that, that fomo for someone my age, who's only done ministry in an iPhone generation, is fomo a recent phenomenon since the invention of technology and things like that? Or was that always a part of it? Now you just can see it with your own eyes that you Oh, you're right now missing out.

Kerry Ray (14:07):
Yeah. No, FOMO has always existed. Um, it wasn't called that, but you know, there was always that, you know, nobody wants to be left out. Everybody wants to be, um, they did say it for hundreds, hundreds of years. They've been saying for years, you know, that, um, when you walk into a building, but think about yourself anytime, iPhone or not, you walk into a restaurant in a busy time of the day for a restaurant mm-hmm. , and you're the, there's maybe one other person in the restaurant. There's something inside of you that goes, it could be the greatest restaurant ever. It could be the best food, best atmosphere, but there's something inside you that intrinsically goes, huh, yeah, something's wrong. What's wrong with this, this ? And, and I think that's, I think that's who we are as, as human beings. When you walk into a store, there's nobody shopping there. When you, when you go to a gym and you work and there's, you're what, what's midnight? That's if you're doing it in a time where typically there would be people there, whether we walk into a church now, um, and there's, you know, there's nobody really attending. You go, huh? When you walk outta that, you don't say, you know, man, that was great. You go, man, that was great. I wonder why nobody goes.

Nick Clason (15:27):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, right? Cause none of that's based on the actual content maybe. Nope. Of like, oh, that was a great message I really resonated with, or whatever. Like what you're noticing is like the social equity landscape of like, what's going on around you, looking around, no one's there. And

Kerry Ray (15:44):
It is a thing, and it is a thing. I think that thing has always existed. And I think whether it's the iPhone or social media, um, has just exacerbated that and made it, yeah. A more prominent thing turned the volume up, if you will, uh, has made it a more prominent thing, more obvious thing. Um, the, but I think it's always been there. Uh, I think it's, you know, when you were eight years old and didn't get invited to a birthday party and you knew other people did mm-hmm. , that's, you had fomo, you were missing out. Um, I think that's just a, a human thing.

Nick Clason (16:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So you and I connected, you were at a church in Cincinnati. I was at a church in Cincinnati, and we were on the doorstep of working together. Um, and so in that process, I guess, I mean, I guess it was even formal. We had formal interviews and stuff. Um, you explained to me, uh, a thing that, I don't know if you came up with this or coined it or whatever, but you called it contact work. Um, so explain a little bit to our listeners, like what that is, where it comes from, maybe the theological or biblical basis for it. Um, and, uh, like then I wanna kind of explore, is that type of work, is that type of ministry, is that possible more and more as we enter into this digital space? But first of all, give us just a little bit of like a background of like, what is it, um, what are you talking about with contact work? I think when I heard it, I never heard it called that, but it was very intrinsic to me. Like, I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense, right? As a youth pastor, like, this is what I'm trying to do. I just never kind of put this label to it. So explain that a little bit.

Kerry Ray (17:32):
Yeah. Well, I definitely did not, uh, coin the phrase contact work. Um, that is, um, I served for a while, um, in young life, and that is a, that is a big, big piece of young life. If anybody's listening who has ever been a part or knows anything about young life, contact work is one of their core tenants. Um, they put a lot of, a lot of energy and effort and strategy

Nick Clason (18:00):
Into Andre good at contact work. That's, that's probably what they're best, I would say.

Kerry Ray (18:04):
Oh, they're, yeah, they're excellent at it. And it's because they value it. It's such a high value, um, for them. Like I said, it's one of their core tenants. Um, it's such a high value that they do it well. Um, and so borrowing that phrase from those guys, um, I just learned it and saw it done really well and saw it valued. Um, and so I, I kind of adopted it into early on into, um, what I was doing, and it was, it was going where they are versus expecting them to come to you. Hmm. Um, contact work at, at its core is, uh, young life would call it earning the right to be heard. Um, but it is, or maybe you hear them say, um, doing things on their turf mm-hmm. , um, so to speak. But basically it is, it is going to where the students are mm-hmm. versus sitting and expecting them to come to you, and then you're putting in the time with them in their places where they feel comfortable and confident, and where they maybe kinda run the show versus your place behind these walls, behind this door where you're in charge and are expecting them to, to do certain, certain things. Um, contact, contact work. Oops, sorry. Contact work is something that is something that we have done for years. It's an expectation.

Kerry Ray (19:37):
Sorry, my headphones went out for a second.

Nick Clason (19:40):
Oh, no, you're good. Contact work is sounds great to me. So,

Kerry Ray (19:42):
Okay. Contact work is, is something that, um, I have, you know, expected is the best word to use of any staff we have I've ever had on, on a, on a church staff. Um, it is, it's that big of a deal. Um, for example, when I had interns and, you know, we were only allowed, you know, what, 15 hours with an intern mm-hmm. mm-hmm. 10 of those hours with contact work, and I would ask them to, you know, fill out a form that tells me where they were going, what they were doing, who they, who they hung out with and talked to. Mm-hmm. , it was that big of a deal. I wanted them to value it. Um, that's when I first started in ministry. Early on, we didn't call it that. Um, but that was my role. Um, I had an older youth pastor who kinda looked at me and sat me down and said, Hey man, I, I'm too old to go run with the Bulls. Um, so , I'm gonna ask you to do that, and I'm gonna expect you to be in the school. I'm gonna expect you to be the one at the games. I'll still be the guy preaching, but, and you know, teaching, teaching you how to do those things, but, you know, you're the guy that's gonna run around with 'em. You can call it Tide Piper, whatever you wanna call it, but it is going and building relationships with students, with teenagers on their turf where they are at instead of expecting them to come to you.

Nick Clason (21:02):
Yeah. I think, and I think, like for me, man, the basis really of me starting this whole podcast is realizing that, uh, digital can play a role in that. You know, I think for churches, a lot of churches, uh, get stuck into their, like, programming schedule. It's Wednesday night, Sunday morning, whatever, and not realizing that there's another 167 unclaimed hours that students are living life doing their thing. Um, you know, so that can obviously be done in person, but how would you say, have you seen that be either possible, or would you say like, yeah, that's not even really a possibility, uh, to show up on their turf in like a digital or more of like a hybrid type of way?

Kerry Ray (21:53):
Lemme back up for a second first, and I can say that one, it's, it's part of what we're called to do. Mm-hmm. , if you're in ministry, um, we're supposed to be following and living as Jesus did. And what you never saw in the New Testament was Jesus just sit still somewhere and say, you know, everybody come to me. Mm-hmm. , I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna sit here , you know, in Jerusalem. I'm just gonna sit here and expect you to come to me. He traveled, he, he went around from town to town, place to place sharing and talking. And part of that was, you know, just getting around the people. Mm-hmm. , um, the people that, you know, he came to this place to die for was just to be amongst and, and interact with those people. Um, and that's part of our calling we're, we can't just sit in a church.

Kerry Ray (22:43):
You could have the greatest program in the world, but you sitting in a church and just expecting people to come to you is one arrogant too. Mm-hmm. , it's foolish. Three, it's ineffective. Um, it just doesn't, it's not the thing you can't, that's not who you're called to be. You're called to, to be out and about. And with people, people, these students are, you're calling, they're, they're coming to know Christ is your calling. And, and it can't be, I'm just sitting here and the kids that get here, that's great. The kids who don't hate it for them, um, that that's not okay. Yeah. So let's start there. Uh, number two, um, it, it matters to your community. Um, you hopefully want your church, your ministry, your student ministry. You want that to, to have such an impact on the lives of the people in your community, no matter their age, that if it disappeared, people would care. Mm-hmm.

Nick Clason (23:40):
. Yeah.

Kerry Ray (23:41):
And to do that, you can't sit in your ivory tower literally and, and expect that to happen. You've got to go out and make some sort of impact, some sort of influence. Uh, and I think in the world we live in the, with the, um, deification, if you will, you know, all of the, you know, I am, you know, de deconstructing my, my religious experience. Um, people are weary. People are weary, people are leery I'll rhyme there. Uh, they're both, they are, they're, um, suspicious mm-hmm. of church. Like, what do you, you know, what do you want from me? Oh, you just want my money. Um, and we've got, if you're talking about students and general teenagers, uh, we've got, this is the first group generation that was raised by students who bowed out years ago. You know, statistically they're, they're called the nuns. N o n E S, not n u n S.

Kerry Ray (24:42):
But the parents are the people who were in student ministry, you know, maybe. And then they bowed out and their parents didn't, you know, didn't raise them in church. And so now they're having kids of their own. And, and so it's, it's blank slates. So you've got parents who don't know, who don't know church. You've got students who don't know church. Um, they're blank canvases. And so, uh, we are, should be out and about if nothing else trying to, trying to show and be the hands of Jesus Christ, the hands of beauty of Christ in these communities in which we are called the love administer to, um, digitally, um, I, I, let's be honest, we watched these last couple years with Covid shutting everything down. Mm-hmm. , we watched the churches who, and the student ministries who had embraced a, a different philosophy versus the come to me.

Kerry Ray (25:40):
Um, they transitioned better. I won't say, well, I will say they had, they made it through the Covid piece a little better mm-hmm. than the churches and the student ministries who lived in the come to us mentality. Um, but let's be honest, I think everybody struggled with it. Uh, because even young life, uh, who is excellent at contact work, I watched Young Life struggled to find themselves because they couldn't do that anymore. Yeah. They couldn't do the face to face interaction, and they had to try to do it in a digital format, and it didn't work as well. Sounds, um, it, it failed. Um, yeah. And it struggled. I mean, some of it, I mean, he, it kinda worked. Not really. I, I would say it failed. Um, even, you know, the big players in, in student industry, the people who were doing this, the guys out like, you know, um, fields and Josh, Doug Fields and Josh out in California went to a digital format.

Kerry Ray (26:38):
And I don't know, I, I haven't talked to these guys about it, so I'm gonna assume, but I, I would assume if you, you asked those guys, they would tell you that it was not what it was. Mm-hmm. , did they do the big digital thing? Well, sure they did. Yeah. But I don't, I don't think it was what it was before that. Yeah. I don't think they got the same interaction. It's a, it's a lot of work for a little payoff. Um, I know at the time of covid, I was in, uh, church in Cincinnati, Ohio, and our middle school ministry was tied to the weekends mm-hmm. , and it was kinda a show up to church, and you go to this thing, but our high school was built offsite. Um, and we had had multiple years where the students had built communities, it houses across the city, and those communities met offsite, and it was in that community that those students lived in with small group leaders that lived in that community that those students lived in.

Kerry Ray (27:33):
And those students were showing up and inviting people into this thing because it was their thing. Mm-hmm. , um, it was kind of their turf, but with our, uh, blanket over the top of it. Sure. It was, but it was still their thing. Um, and when Covid hit, I got to see firsthand middle school, they come to us, we shut that down for a little bit, then we tried to do it digitally. It just didn't fly. Um, it was a struggle to put, you know, 10 kids in the room, in, in a digital room, uh, high school. I don't think, if I looked at the numbers, and I tracked them every week, I think in total we lost two students. Wow. Two, why? And we actually picked up a few. Why? Because they had already built this community that was not attached to the come, come and see mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (28:31):
It was, it was a community. So when we took that community that already existed and just moved it to a digital format, they, they still do the same people. It was still, it was built on a different thing. Mm-hmm. , it was centered around community and not centered around come and see Yes. Or come and participate. Yeah. Um, so it, it, it, it mattered. It, it changed. And I, like I said, I watched, um, during those, during the covid years, got to see, you know, there were plenty of churches that that died. There were plenty of churches that are still, you know, where a year out now when this is being recorded. And they are still struggling with putting the pieces back together. I don't think, I don't think ministry, I don't think church will ever quite be the same. Um, post covid. Interesting. But, and I think youth ministry is harder, um, because I think students got realize they didn't have to be there.

Kerry Ray (29:25):
Mm-hmm. , uh, the church kids stopped going. The, the non-church kids never went. Uh, and we had a generation now that has been raised at least for a couple of years, you think of a sixth grader, they went through sixth, seventh, and part of grade without ever being in a so ninth grade in that time where it's already hard to be a part of a community because you drive for the first time, you've got some freedom in ninth and 10th grade. Yeah. Depending on your age and your state, uh, you start having freedom, you start working, um, you start doing other things. It's already hard in the, in the youth industry world. For those of you listening to this that are in, in ministry, you know, that time is already difficult anyway. But now you've got a group who went three years without engaging at all mm-hmm. ,

Kerry Ray (30:08):
Uh, and then behind them is another group that went three years without engaging at all. And behind them is another group that, you know, hey, which is babies at the time. So it's going to be a difficult dig out. Um, and I think that that actually makes this contact work piece even more relevant. Mm-hmm. . Now to your question, if, can it be digital? I don't know. I, I have not seen that work super well. Um, now I will tell you this, we all know that, um, for a teenager, uh, when you, and I think of the friends we make, you know, they say, well, my friend, you know, you like, you think my friend that I play, you know, call on duty with, you know, that lives in California. You're like, you never, you, you live in Alabama, you don't know that kid , but you're like, no, I play with them every day.

Kerry Ray (31:00):
I, you know, I spend hours with them on a headset, you know, shooting people and, and you know, talking about stuff over the headset to them that is a real friend. Yeah. Um, that barrier has dropped mm-hmm. to us as adults. You know, I think, you know, for those of you that don't know, those of us, you know, over the age of, let's call it 27 ish, you know, we're digital. We're digital immigrants. Mm-hmm. , we're, we come with baggage of how technology works and how it should be used and utilized, and, uh, where our teenagers and below, or digital natives mm-hmm. , there's never been a time where they did not know technology. There's never been a time where social media was not interactive for them. Um, and so we as adults, as digital immigrants, let's use that instead of adults, us as digital immigrants, we look at, um, online friendships, online relationships, um, and go, that's weird.

Kerry Ray (32:03):
Um, that's not a thing. But to them as digital natives, that has always been the thing that has always been very real. Um, dating apps and, you know, swiping left and right. And I mean, that went from like a silly thing. Like, you know, this is those of us, again as digital immigrants, look at that and go, come on. Um, you know, you're just, you're just, you know, trying to find a hot dude or hot girl and hook up. But for them, they're like, no, I, I'm trying to find a relationship. I get to know people this way. Yeah. Um, it's, it's fascinating. Yeah. Um, so I think there is, there, there's gotta be a way for that to happen mm-hmm. , and we've gotta figure out this, and I'd go back to contact work. There's gotta be a way for contact work to happen in a digital context. But there is some, there is something to set for a loss of the, the face to face because the face to face is so significant.

Nick Clason (32:58):
Wow. Well, wasn't that awesome? I'm so excited for you to hear and learn from part two. Um, anything and everything that Kerry mentioned, uh, YM 360, my youth min, um, all those things. Um, and also Derry's episode. I'm gonna link all of those in the show notes, which you can grab a in your podcast catcher or be over at hybridministry.xyz. And I would really encourage you, because he said a lot of really good things. And if you're like me and you listen on 1.5 or two times speed, uh, you may have not caught it, or you're driving or you mowing the lawn or whatever you're doing, head to hybridministry.xyz and you can grab a full transcript of this episode so that you can have and use to utilize at your discretion. That's a thing that we do and produce for you, um, for a hundred percent free.

Nick Clason (33:49):
So we just wanna let you know that that is available there for you to check out at http://hybridministry.xyz If you found this helpful and I'm sure that you did, please give it a share. Send it to someone that you know, maybe in youth ministry, um, and leave us a rating or a review. That would be really, really helpful for us. We would love to, uh, hear that. So, um, we will chat with you guys next time. Excited to share with you part two of this episode. But until then, we'll talk again later by.

Episode 018: The Do's, Don'ts and lessons learned from launching a YouTube channel for your church in 2022

Nick Clason — Thu, 17 Nov 2022 04:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this Episode Nick explains and explores his experience with YouTube. What he learned from launching a YouTube channel during COVID, and his new recommendation for churches and ministry leaders for delivering useful content online for Gen Z and Gen Alpha and beyond.

Follow us on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or get FREE transcripts at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or find more written content like this from Nick at http://www.myyouthmin.com

TIMECODES
00:00-00:36 - Intro
00:36-07:22 - The lessons I've learned from starting a YouTube channel during COVID
07:22-10:31 - Why start with YouTube?
10:31-13:13 - How to get indexed in searches on YouTube
13:13-16:26 - Ministry Implications
16:26-20:36 - YouTube Best Practices
20:36-22:09 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? And welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Excited to be with you today. I am Nick Clason, your host, and today I wanted to talk about YouTube, and I actually wanted to talk about why I think it is useful for churches to quit live streaming their sermons. Now, hear me out. Hear me out. Before I dive into all that, let me just get a couple of things off the bat here said. So first and foremost, I wanna talk about YouTube. I don't like to talk about things on this show that I don't have a lot of experience with. And so today is an exception because I have almost zero experience with YouTube. And so for you to understand why and why and the history and everything like that, I just want to give a quick overview. So the church that I most recently served at, not where I am now, but where I most recently before here served at, had a almost 600 YouTube subscriber channel and over 300 or something like that, videos published on it.

Nick Clason (01:22):
The reason for that being that we started our YouTube channel and our YouTube show, the first day of Covid. And so our YouTube channel and strategy was primarily a digital version of what we would do if we were in the room. So we would think, let's do a game. And in our defense, I think what we did game wise and announcement wise and host wise was a little more YouTube centric than just simply throwing a camera in the back of the room and us pretending there were students there. But instead we were doing it a live stream. So what I mean by that is we built a studio and instead of a game, a screen game or something, we would do a segment. And it was almost like competition or challenge based. So I mean, if you think Mr. Beast or any of those big YouTubers, it was things like that.

Nick Clason (02:27):
So we were trying to think outside the box and trying to morph and do student ministry in a YouTube sort of way. One of the things that I think shot us in the foot was, first of all, we did it in a pinch. So we did it immediately and we pivoted very fast. And what we did and what we created, I personally was very proud of. But all that being said, once Covid began to run its course and things were over and opening a little bit more, people were looking for an in-person experience. And so what we were producing online was really no longer fulfilling the need that it needed to. So it probably needed an adjustment, and we started to make those adjustments. And what I mean by that is once Covid was over and kids were not stuck in their room, they're probably not that interested in our little segment or our little trivia game that we're playing or whatever on the screen.

Nick Clason (03:29):
But I do think that we had tons of formidable and useful spiritual content sermons, messages, whatever and whatnot that were totally useful. The problem was we did it in a full, long form show, so to speak. And so just youth group games and announcements and worship and all those things led into the message. And so you didn't get to the message until about 16 minutes on the actual YouTube thing. Typically the shows around 30 minutes or so. And so it was about half stuff and half a message. You get it If you're programming in the room, it's exactly what you would think as far as format wise, okay? And all of that. I was at a multi-site megachurch. All of that was handled by a creative team, a video editor, an audio producer, our tech department handled that, handled, uploading, posting, making it live, all those things.

Nick Clason (04:29):
And so I helped produce the content. I helped think through some of the philosophy and the strategy of it, but I was not boots on the ground in the weeds, hands on with doing, posting all the YouTube content and growing the channel. And in a lot of ways, the 600 something subs subscribers were a response to what happened during Covid, right? Everyone was subscribing to YouTube channels. Everyone that called our church home, parents, students alike, they subscribing to our channel. All right? So now fast forward to where I am now, and I'm at a little bit smaller church. We got a team of three, but we have around the same student count, or slightly more than the campus that I was at. And so we have a pretty frequent schedule Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. So every three days, there's something that we need to be thinking for, planning for, and prepping for.

Nick Clason (05:26):
Not to mention, the entire team of where I'm at is completely brand new. And so we are basically building something from the ground up. There was some stuff in place before and whatever and whatnot. But the reality is we're starting from the ground up. One of the things that we're starting from the ground up, we're continuing on with the Wednesday meeting times, Sunday meeting times, but we're launching and fleshing out a completely digital strategy. And so with all that being said, I wanna just give that caveat to this is my experience with YouTube. I have been very involved in the production of YouTube content. I've learned a lot of things, some dos and don'ts and whatevers and whatnots. But also we are at the church of, we are gonna be changing our name here in January. And so I actually secured the YouTube channel for our future name of our student ministry, which is still a secret to a lot of people.

Nick Clason (06:28):
So because of that, I have not started posting things to YouTube. What I have started doing is I have started beta testing our YouTube strategy more on a video filming and editing side of things. Is this a sustainable and scalable process that I can continue to implement beyond on a week to week type basis? And so I've been practicing some things, and so I think I feel pretty good about the workflow and rhythm to be able to pull some of these things off. And so I'm excited about launching a YouTube channel and account in January knowing that I'll be able to replicate what I've been doing. So that's sort the background and the history of at least my personal experience with YouTube. So why start with YouTube? Alright, I think YouTube is, is actually a really unique social media platform. It's the only one of its kind in the category of Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube is owned by Google, and it's the only social media platform in that category of those kind of core FI four or five that is owned by Google.

Nick Clason (07:52):
So you got Google, you got Meta, and then you got TikTok, who's sort of like the third player, the owner there in that, right? You've probably heard this before, but YouTube is actually widely considered by many to be the second largest search engine in the world behind only Google. Some if you get real nitty gritty with it, some actually say it's not the second largest, it's the third largest because Google Images is technically larger. Bottom line, all three, Google search, Google images and YouTube are owned by the same parent company, Google. And regardless of that, right? YouTube is a search engine. And so who among us has not installed a light fixture from the help of a friendly person who posted a YouTube tutorial on YouTube for us to watch and consume and use, Okay? And because it's a search engine, I think it's actually a pretty strategic advantage that can be used by us as pastors and ministry leaders.

Nick Clason (08:55):
Because if you think about it, when you search for a video, right? Search more how to or think how to fix, how to answer, how to do this, how to navigate this. So, or challenge us to think YouTubers rather than pastors or speakers. And I think that was one of our number one Achilles heels in where I was before. We were thinking YouTubers in a lot of ways, but in our, for example, and I'll get to this in a minute, but in our titling and in our thumbnails, we were treating this as series, the series Jesus series, Part three, March 1st. That's not a compelling, in captivating title for our audience who is with us every week and just wants to get on there and watch something on demand that may be helpful. But to someone who's gonna organically come across our YouTube content, that doesn't explain anything about what's in the video.

Nick Clason (09:59):
So why is live streaming problematic particularly? And full disclosure, I'm a student pastor. And so if you're watching this in a senior pastor and your church has good cameras, good audio equipment, good lighting to fully embrace a live streaming strategy, then by all means continue to do that. But if you're a youth pastor, I would not necessarily recommend building the gear, the switcher, the infrastructure of live streaming. All right, So let's talk about watch times. Cause this plays into it. According to a backlink.dot com, they surveyed and looked at 1.3 million YouTube videos to try and better understand the YouTube search feature and algorithm. What they determined was that longer videos significantly outperform shorter videos. And the average length of a first page YouTube video that's beneficial and helpful is 14 minutes and 50 seconds. All right? So you need to understand that the way that YouTube indexes and categorizes their videos is a combination of two things.

Nick Clason (11:15):
Overall, watch time paired with average percentage viewed. And so it turns out that videos in the 14 to 16 minute range actually index really well. In fact, those are the highest ones on search. There are other factors of things that help increase watch times, such as the hook or the intro. All right, So let's just think in the land of sermon delivering a sermon, Okay? I want you to just rank these two scenarios. Scenario number one. Hey everybody, welcome back. Real quick before I dive into tonight's message, I wanna remind you about the Churchwide Bake sales. It's coming up on Sunday, and if you want to earn money toward the mission trip, it is required that you be in attendance. If for some reason you can't make it, just be sure to talk to me afterwards. All right? Now, last week when we were in part three of our series, Jesus, we were reminded that Jesus was bonded together with his disciples because of their love.

Nick Clason (12:14):
And so tonight, what I wanna focus on in part four is what happens after the death burial and then ultimately resurrection of Jesus, right? That's scenario number one. That's you preaching to your congregation, your students, the people that call your church home. Let's talk about scenario number two. Hey, what if you could win a million dollars? What if I told you that the message of Jesus is actually one that supersedes and rises far above the benefits of winning millions and millions of dollars? Do you see how one at least has the intention of a hook? I don't know if it's good or not, right? That's why I say in fairness, I'm not a YouTube sivan or expert, but I want you, I wanna challenge you to think like a YouTuber. And so where one is taking care of housekeeping in your student ministry, what's going on the bake sale? The second one is actually thinking about YouTube first. It's creating a hook. So what are some implications for ministry? Well, first of all, a 30 to 45 minute sermon where the speaker is presenting primarily to a room full of people versus not really looking or paying attention to the camera. It's just there. Capturing them, doesn't act, Doesn't exactly right. Speak YouTube's preferred language. Think about it, in a live room environment anyway, messages between the length of 10 to 25 minutes seem to have become a pretty optimal length for student ministries who gather in person.

Nick Clason (13:51):
And I also think that if you take your YouTube or if you take your message content that you're going to already naturally deliver into a room, what I'm gonna actually propose here is that instead of capturing you delivering live to your room, I'm gonna propose that you prefill your content. And what happens is when you prefill your content, number one, you can create and craft a hook that is specific in particular for YouTube. Secondly, you can shave the time down to fit into that 14 to 16 minute window. Even if you go longer in the room, aim for that 14 to 16 minute window. And third, it gives you the opportunity to practice your message before you get up there and deliver it to a live room full of teenagers or parishioners or congregation members. And so that's one of the things that we've been doing.

Nick Clason (14:58):
We teach live every single Wednesday night, but during that week, after I'm done with my prep, I sit down, I put up a camera and iFilm my message. Then I do a little bit of post production, I add a sound bed behind it. I do some flying in graphics, lower thirds slides, and I put those on the screen as well. And that's gonna be our strategy for YouTube. Why? Number one, it's gonna let us do a YouTube first messaging. We're not gonna bury it behind a bunch of other elements. We're gonna go with the message first. If YouTube is in fact a search engine and kids are out there searching for answers to their faith, then let's give them the answers to their faith. And they might not care about our church announcements. They might not care about the worship, but what they do want is they want answers.

Nick Clason (15:45):
So answer the question, tell them what you're gonna talk about with the hook right up front at the very beginning of the video. And that for me is one of the hardest shifts, is moving from holding my ace content up my sleeve until the very end, waiting for the message to climax, but instead giving a teaser and a preview at the very beginning of the message. That's a shift. YouTubers do that really well. Pastors build to their ultimate conclusion, and so they try to create this mystery around what's gonna come. But the reality is on YouTube, if you don't hook them right off the bat immediately, then they are gone and on to the next thing. And so think like a YouTuber. Let's talk through some other YouTube best practices. Like I said, make sure your titling is something that a YouTuber would search for as opposed to Jesus Week three, Mark 14, one through 10.

Nick Clason (16:39):
That's not as captivating a title as Is hell a real place dealing with crippling anxiety or is rest even possible? You see the difference between those two. Think YouTube, think search engine, think click bait, think controversial type titles that help your video perform better because it's a search engine. The meta description or the title, the description of the video, those things all play a huge role in the YouTube ranking. So make sure you spend a little bit of time thinking through and crafting some good compelling descriptions. And then you can also link to things on your church's website or social media, or maybe even some products in the description of your video. Also include tags. YouTube gives you a spot to do that. So include keywords from your videos or tags that relate back to the topic. All three of those factors, title, description, tags, all play a role in the searchability of your YouTube content.

Nick Clason (17:33):
Also, your thumbnail plays plays a role. Go look at Mr. Beast. He's like number one, YouTuber in the world. Go look at his thumbnails on his YouTube channel and just get some photos with a decent iPhone, maybe a Google Pixel phone to take some halfway decent portrait shots. Throw some catchy text over it using maybe something like PowerPoint Canva, or if you have more skill Photoshop and use different catchy thumbnails to try on your videos. You can also then use a free tool like trends.google.com to look up your searchable words and compare things. AB testing. If you wanted to use the word fear versus the word anxiety, put those into trends.google.com. And you'll notice that anxiety has a higher search level. So use that.

Nick Clason (18:25):
And then also comments and shares and people embedding your videos are all things that are gonna help index it better in the YouTube algorithm. So ask for things like comments, ask for things like shares, and then on the embedding feature, try to embed your YouTube videos onto your church website onto your, And so then your website is hosting your YouTube video and embedding it already helps index it better. So you already have a platform that people are going to. So use that. That's a feature that's already built in and that can help you get going. All right, what if you're just starting? What starting gear do you need, right? Listen, if you're gonna go budget friendly, get a nice smartphone, right? I just gotta Google Pixel, the latest iPhone have some great things. One of the main things for filming is you need a separate microphone, Okay?

Nick Clason (19:24):
So you can get, just go on Amazon, do a quick search for a shotgun microphone with your style of phone connection that's needed. You can get something for under a hundred bucks. You can also get a lapel, a wireless lapel lighting. Natural lighting is great. Some ring lights can help. Do the trick. Get a tripod that you can stick your phone on. If you want a more professional rig, then listen. Just go to YouTube, search best YouTube starter set for gear, and you'll find something. I love everything that Brady Sheer from Pro Church Tools has to say just about anything in the church digital space. And in fact, I think the day I'm recording this, he yesterday just trapped a video on his favorite camera gear. So go copy that if you got the budget to do it and make it happen. And then you're just gonna have to do things like edit, and you're gonna figure out you wanna use iMovie, Da Vinci, Resolve Adobe Final Cut Pro.

Nick Clason (20:20):
Again, budget for some of those are cheaper, like iMovie and Da Vinci Resolve are free. More expensive options are the Adobe Suite or Final Cut Pro. You're just gonna have to see what you have and what's available out there. But listen, my recommendation, again, like I said, get on YouTube. Treat it like a search engine. Get out there. Put your message, the message of hope that you have about Jesus. Create a YouTube channel. Prefill your content or film it after you deliver it. If you want it to be a little bit more polished and you've a little bit more familiar with it, and just start posting some stuff out there, right? Try some things. Follow some of these best practices. You may not go viral overnight. I can't promise that, but these are some of the best practices out there on YouTube. And so simply following them is just gonna give you the best chance to be discovered.

Nick Clason (21:12):
And that's the goal. We want students, teenagers, or people wrestling with faith to come across the content that we have to offer, and hopefully give them something that's helpful. And this is just a way to expand your impact and your reach as a youth pastor, as a regular pastor in 2022 and beyond. Hey, I hope you guys found this episode helpful. If you did get, Man, leave us a rating or a review. We are on iTunes, Spotify, all the major podcast platforms, hybrid ministry. We're also on Twitter at hybrid ministry. We have full transcripts of everything. We provide this to y'all at hybridministry.xyz Come check us out there and we will talk to you guys.

Episode 017: The Ultimate Social Media Framework for Churches to Reach Milennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha in 2022 and Beyond

Nick Clason — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 04:00:00 -0600

SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick talks through the core reasons why a Hybrid Strategy is the most effective way to reach the younger generations of milennials, Generation Z and Generation Alpha in 2022 and beyond.
For Transcripts and more head to http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or join the conversation with us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry

SHOWNOTES
https://myyouthmin.com/

TIMECODES
00:00-02:40 Intro
02:40-05:33 Why Social Media is important for reaching people in 2022 and beyond?
05:33-10:01 Digital Ministry is not Physical Ministry and vice versa
10:01-13:14 How people interact with organizations and companies
13:14-15:31 Becoming All Things to All People
15:31-18:56 So now what do we do?
18:56-22:29 Final Encouragement
22:29-23:41 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be here with you this morning. And today on this episode, I wanted to talk and walk through a social media framework for 2022, the ultimate guide on how to reach Generation Z millennials and soon to be, I was just challenged on this week soon to be Generation Alpha. So recently I was asked by Youth Ministry 360 YM360 based out of Birmingham to write one of their modules for their MYM which is short for My Youth Mein. It's a training portal, training hub that they have on their website. And so I'm actually gonna have this coming out in December of 2022 on their YM page. And so I'm in the middle of a writing it, so it's not all the way flushed out yet, but there are some things I have already put together for it.

Nick Clason (01:25):
And so if you wanna see that full version, I'll just encourage you to head over there to that website by the 1st of December to check that out. It is behind a paywall. There is a five day free trial, I believe. So if that's something that interests you, go and check it out to see it in written form. But I'm gonna process some of my thoughts with you all here on this podcast and just work through it. And then honestly, I'm probably gonna go back and listen to this and use it as a piece and part of my research prep, whatever, to flesh out and build out the remaining pieces. So it's building a seven step framework for social media in 2022. Part one and part seven are gonna be introductory and concluding pieces. And then parts one through five are going to be looking at platforms like YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, emailing slash texting. So five is email and text. Put two in one. So all that to be said, the ultimate social media guide. Why that? Okay, so what we know about Generation Z what we know about millennials we've chatted about it here on this podcast, but I did find some new research to back it. So this generation, Generation Z in particular, is actually the very first generation to use their mobile

Nick Clason (02:59):
Device more frequently than all other devices combined. So in preexisting generations, millennials, Gen X, so on, so forth they did not use their cell phone or their mobile device more frequently. Then the combined use of other devices, tv, video games, computer, laptop, you fill in the blank, right? Generation Z is statistically the first generation to use their mobile device more frequently. What does that tell us? It tells us that they're mobile first. They are the first smartphone generation, essentially. And so that does bode to make sense, and that is something that you would probably expect. However, with research coming out to back it up, it's super interesting, fascinating. So right then again, the question is what do we do with that? Millennials and also Gen Z say that a hybrid version of church will suit their needs going forward in a post pandemic world. That obviously comes from bar's research six questions about hybrid ministry in a post pandemic world.

Nick Clason (04:14):
And then finally, lastly this statistic I came across that says that greater than 80% of 18 to 29 year olds, which is the youngest age data available legally, because you can't pull anyone younger than 18 but greater than 80% of that age bracket use at least one social media app regularly, which of all the age breakdowns is the highest, right? And it's assumed that even younger gen z gen alpha, remember I'm writing this for a youth ministry a youth ministry training thing. So I'm focused particularly on teenagers, not just church, but you as a church leader pastor, ministry leader this 18 to a nine year old, this should matter regardless, right? I'm trying to skew it even younger than that for this project. But they use at least one social media app regularly. So my conclusion on that is what this shows us is what we may already know in our gut, the digital ministry digital engagement is not going anywhere.

Nick Clason (05:29):
I do think that there's a notion that came out kind of post pandemic, that digital didn't work because anecdotally, all of us spent months separated from one another. And as soon as that was over six months, 12 months, 18 months, or however long it took for us to be locked down under certain layers of covid protocols, we all knew that we wanted to get back together. Depending on where you were and what part of the world, world and how you're doing ministry, there's this gut feeling of like, we gotta get back together. And that's a hundred percent a true statement. Human beings, we are social creatures. And so removing all forms of human interaction is of course gonna have some adverse effects. But I think that what happened was we all did in churches, we tried to take something that was being offered for an in-person experience, church service, gathering together small groups worshiping God through singing collectively as a congregation.

Nick Clason (06:28):
And then we tried to reproduce or even replicate the absolute identical experience or expression in an online forum, church, live streams, worship services, and those don't work or play in that same vein as well. And so you're getting a lesser product B in every other facet area of your life. You're being forced to sit out in relationships with other people. And so I know that in our student ministry, we went hardcore after digital ministry and it helped kind of facilitate and flush out our future our future version of student ministry. But the reality is it did not ultimately fill the void that was left by not gathering. So my conclusion, one you've probably heard before on this podcast is that in person environments centered around the gathering of believers helps fulfill a specific purpose. And digital environments also help fulfill a specific different purpose. The word different there is important, okay?

Nick Clason (07:41):
Because everything on social media has a reason, has a purpose and it is not to just replicate, redo, and fulfill what's going on in person. And so in a post pandemic landscape, those two things, both digital and in person, I think got pitted against one another. At least I know in the ministry context that I was in, there were debates and people were wondering, does online work, does in person work? And so I was forced to take a side. And as you know, if you've been a listener of this podcast for any length of time, the side I'm gonna take, I'm going to take digital, I'm going to defend digital. I think that it is an incredible tool that is unique to the time period that we are in. And one that I believe if any of the writers of scripture, apostles, whatever were around, they would be using digital to help expand their message and help expand the message of the gospel that's available to us through Jesus alone.

Nick Clason (08:55):
And so we got sort of pitted in this digital versus physical. I don't know about your context, but I know in the context that I was in, I don't work there anymore, but that I was in, that was a hot debate, Is it working? And if not, then we need to just come back and do this. And the reality is, I always had to find myself arguing, standing against digital. And then I realized once I left that what we were doing in digital is not able to fully replace and supplement the purposes of in-person church. So yeah, of course we're gonna see lesser results from that. We gotta figure out where to shoot it in the middle, where we can be hybrid. So it's not about a preference anymore. We don't live in a world that's black and white with in person being black, digital being white, and you have to pick one or the other.

Nick Clason (09:52):
We live in this sticky middle called hybrid. Hence why I have this name, the hybrid ministry podcast. I like to use the analogy of my relationship with Home Depot, right? Saturday mornings I activate my full dad mode, throwing on my new balances, my cargo shorts, my dad hats set out to accomplish some DIY project. And the only place that is possible to go and do that get materials and all the things is none other than the Home Depot. I know in your mind you are queuing the Home Depot theme song. So as I head to Home Depot, think about this, sometimes I drive over to the hardware store, I walk around, I explore, I just enjoy breathing the same Home Depot air with the other cargo, short new balance wearing dads just like me. That's a physical experience. Sometimes though, I get on the Home Depot website or the app and I order supplies to be delivered directly to my doorstep later on that week.

Nick Clason (10:51):
That's a fully digital experience of me interacting with Home Depot. And finally, probably honestly, the most usual thing I do is while I'm at Home Depot and I can't freaking find what I'm looking for, do you know what I do? I pull open the Home Depot app, I go to my specific store and the location finder, I look up what I'm looking for, and then when the app is able to tell me exactly which ILE in which bay number I can find my specific product in, boom, I'm in. And I'm out in all of those scenarios. I am a Home Depot customer, but I'm engaging with the company in three completely different ways. I'm engaging with them in person, I'm engaging with them through their digital means and presence. And I'm also using them in a hybrid form while I'm there using their digital app.

Nick Clason (11:43):
And I personally believe I'm pretty staunch about this, that the gospel is the greatest story ever written and ever told. And if we're working to reach our people with that exact same message that I think we should challenge them to engage with our church in all three arenas in person, digital, hybrid, in fact, more than just challenge them to engage with us in all three, I would actually challenge you. I would challenge me, I would challenge us as ministry leaders to find ways that is not just reproducing, replicating creating exact representations of what's going on in our church building. I'd find ways to permeate those three spaces. Think about this, right? If our only strategy to reach new students or to reach, I'm a youth pastor, I told you I'm writing this for why I'm through 60, but to reach new students or to reach other congregation members, if our only strategy is to invite kids to join in on our turf, on our space during our meeting time, during our program time, and then turn around and send those same kids to live out 167 other hours of their week beyond what just happened to live out their faith, is that enough?

Nick Clason (13:05):
And I don't know that it is, right? Yes, it is not our job to fully live out our students faith, but I'm reminded of what Paul says in First Corinthians nine. Here's what he says nine 19 through 23, Though I am free and I belong to no one, what I've done is I've made myself a slave to everyone to win as many as possible to the Jews. It became like a Jew to win the Jews to those under the law. I became the one under the law. Though I myself am not under the law so as to win those under the law to those not having the law, I became like one. Not having the law, though I'm not free from God's law, but I'm under Christ's law. And so as to win those not having the law to the weak, I became weak to win the weak.

Nick Clason (13:51):
I've become all things to all people so that by all means possible, ready, I might save some. And I do this for the sake of the gospel so that I might share in its blessings. If over 80% of mobile users are using at least one social media app regularly, how can we become all things to all people? The way that Paul says it, how can we show up where our students are already choosing to spend their time? So I believe that one way to do that is through a robustly flushed out social media and marketing strategy. We talked about this in an episode about the myth of marketing. And back when Matt was on the pod regularly, he said We were asking, Is it wrong to market Jesus? And he said, Don't think about marketing in the traditional sense of marketing. Our church has billboards and ads.

Nick Clason (14:52):
Though you may have those things, there's nothing wrong with those things. But what the goal ultimately of marketing is to build an awareness. And Seth Godin says, in an attempt to change the world through our messaging. And I would think, and I would argue that most of us as church or ministry leaders, we exist to make a difference in the world, to change the world through our message. And if we can do that beyond our once a week in person program gatherings, I think we should. So what do we do? So social media, church communications, they've taken on some interesting forms in recent years. Like, here's how this would go. A new social media platform would emerge. The church, of course would resist it. And then once widespread adoption by its members became a reality in something that was undeniable anymore, the church would then jump into that platform and it would view it as a good communication tool or a good means to an end to get the word across.

Nick Clason (16:04):
And so then, if you're ministry leader, church leader, pastor, you get this when the whirlwind, when the busyness of leaders, youth pastors, rather than creating a specific tailor made digital influence, discipleship focused social media strategy, it would basically turn that social media into a billboard saying, Hey, if you want, all I have to offer from a discipleship social media strategy framework, you have to drive over to my building and come to this event. Like I said earlier, social media platforms each have an individual purpose. They all have best practices to reach the audience or our congregation that is following us on those platforms. And we're able to use those to find and reach more people with the message of the gospel. Often, like I said, what happens is, no offense to your graphic design prowess, but your church-wide potluck graphic is probably not going to be as mesmerizing to outsiders as you are hoping that it would be.

Nick Clason (17:09):
And it's not. People are not just gonna accidentally scroll past your graphic about the church wide potluck and just come strolling into your church's C Gymatorium to eat t Sally's famous potato salad, No shade to t Sally. I'm sure that the recipe that she has for her potato salad truly is a one of a kind, but that is not gonna be your ultimate win on social media. The odds are that if you're reading this, if you're listening to this as a ministry leader, then you instinctively know this, that just posting graphics of your events is really not going to be the best way to run or do social media. And maybe even as a ministry leader, youth pastor, you have been shoulder tapped or shoulder maybe even voluntold, to become the church's communications director and social media manager, But to keep your head above water to post regularly, to do communication, to lead your ministry well, to communicate with parents, leaders, students, to prep messages that are good and relevant, and to plan amazing and awesome events to even maybe run the sound booth on Sunday morning in big church worship services.

Nick Clason (18:21):
Cuz you're the only one under the age of 30 in your church gnawing inside of you. You're aware that social media matters, that the stats that we've talked about, Gen Z using their phone more than any other device, that they want a hybrid experience with church, that over 80% use at least one app on a regular basis. So what do we do? How do we build out flesh out this robust social media platform? Like I said, the remainder of this project is gonna be on Nym YM three sixty.com. Head there, grab a free trial, love to encourage you to check that out if that's something that you're interested in. But before we leave, I just want to offer a couple of encouragements and reminders because maybe saying this, you're like, Yeah, gosh, dang, man, I know I need to do something, right? Okay, There's gonna be a lot to build out in a social media framework.

Nick Clason (19:26):
Okay, Here's my encouragements to you. Number one, you don't have to try and do it all, and you definitely don't have to try and do it all tomorrow, But as we walk through this, as we look at different platforms, as you dive in YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, email, texting, choose one platform that's gonna work in your context and go all in on that. First, as a ministry leader, I just wanna encourage you doing a great job. I mean, I don't know specifically, but if you have that tension, that pressure, that feeling of trying to do all these things, it means that you care and you're probably doing an amazing job in the areas that you are working on. And I want to just let you know, and I wanna encourage you to keep your head above water, right? It's gonna be okay. It's gonna work out learning a new platform. Honestly, it might feel like you have to learn to write a book with your left hand and it can feel clunky, awkward but really, truly, I just wanna encourage you, practice really does make perfect. Right now, I am rolling out a full blown social media strategy for the church that I'm working in which is brand new, and I got two other youth pastors on my team, and we're posting regularly

Nick Clason (20:47):
Three times daily to TikTok, and I can do it, I'm used to it. I've learned TikTok, I'm familiar in the editing framework in the app But the problem with that is twofold. Number one, if I just do it if you go to our TikTok channel, and already it is this way, but because I'm trying to slowly hand more and more stuff off to them, if you go there, you're gonna see a lot of me, and we're a team of three. And so our digital expression does not fully represent who we really are because there's three of us, not just me. And so that's problem number one. Problem number two is it's not beneficial for me to hoard and hold it all right? So I need to get them up to speed and feeling comfortable editing things so that they're also on social media and we're seeing their representation on our TikTok account.

Nick Clason (21:52):
And then finally, this one dovetails very closely to what I just said and list some help. Get on this with some friends, maybe some coworkers, maybe even use some students in your church, in your ministry who are much more native to some of these platforms. You don't have to try and learn it on your own because honestly, remember what Paul said, our job as pastors and ministry leaders is to equip the saints for works and acts of service. So that is the goal. The goal is not for you to be holding onto it all and entirely. So, hey guys, thank you so much for hanging out today on this episode. If you found this helpful, go download the seven Steps social media framework for reaching Gen Z and Gen Gen Alpha. It's gonna be live on my Youth Min or short MYM on YM360 here soon.

Nick Clason (22:50):
Ugh, it is behind a little bit of a membership paywall. I will warn you of that, but especially if you are in youth ministry, that membership is very much going to be well worth your time. So I'd really encourage you to go check it out and hang out with us. This full transcript is gonna be available hybridministry.xyz if you want to use it as convince your boss or to help thinking through the big picture realities of why social media matters. If you need to talk to a parent, a leader, a pastor, about why this is important, especially for you're in a ministry where you're leading the charge on that or come hang out with us on Twitter @hybridministry. Again, guys, thank you so much for hanging out had fun talking, chatting with y'all, and we will talk again next time.

Episode 015: Why We Do What We Do In Churches in 2022?

Nick Clason — Thu, 27 Oct 2022 04:00:00 -0500

SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick recounts some of his most recent experiences, and pokes the question at: "Why are we doing, what we're doing in churches?" If our ultimate aim is disciple-making (Mt 28) then is the method we're operating in a church the most effective form of doing that?

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody. And welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast. On today's episode, I just wanted to have a quick conversation, a brain dump, if you will, about why we do what we do as Christians in church. And you know what I mean by that is there's a lot of moving parts in any organization if you're running a business or if you're an accountant or if you run a plumbing company or whatever, right? There's logistics, there's email, there's it, there's booking, there's scheduling, there's accounting, there's marketing, there's branding and color schemes and merchandising and content creation and social media. I mean, there's a million layers to everything, and the church is not exempt from that. And so what I wanna do, like I said, give just a quick little brain dump here. This is something that's been swirling around in my brain.

Nick Clason (01:09):
I am your host, Nick Clason. If you and I have not had a chance to meet, so excited that you're jumping on this, uh, podcast with me today. Um, I, we, we, we, uh, have this podcast, the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, because we are attempting to live life out in a hybrid sort of way. We don't live in a physical only world anymore, but we don't live in a digital only world either. How do we marry those two things together? And how do we create a hybrid sort of experience, uh, for the people that we're trying to reach? Because, you know, me, my story, like I'm a pastor, and so I've been called by God to reach people, make disciples, um, and share with them the mi, the mission, message, and hope found only in Jesus. And so how do we do that? And so for, you know, the majority of our lifetime, uh, we've done that through the local body, um, of the church.

Nick Clason (02:03):
And I believe that that's, that's a theological, um, understanding of what we have going on, right? Like the theological implications, Hebrew chapter 10, verse 24 and 25, Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Not giving up meeting together is somewhere in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another in all the more, as you see the day approaching, it's a biblical mandate for us to do life together. And by no means am I proposing that we don't do that. Um, so like I said, I'm a pastor, um, specifically I'm a youth pastor, uh, work in the Dallas, Texas area. And I just started a new job, started a new job, um, at, uh, going on two months now at this point. But the first month was, uh, remote and traveling back and forth between Dallas and Chicago, where I, I lived before.

Nick Clason (02:56):
And so, yeah, I really only feel like I've been here like 20 something days or whatever since, you know, since I was able to kind of get in here full time and get things going. So, you know, one of the, and, and listen, before I jump into this, this could feel like a slight or a, you know, a dig at the church I'm at, or the churches that I've been in in my lifetime. And the fact is I'm very thankful for every single opportunity that I've been given. Um, I see how every, uh, stop in my journey, in my career, uh, has led me to a very specific spot in my life and how God has orchestrated, um, and paved those ways. And so, you know, there's some, uh, there's some jobs that I've had, you know, that, that have some hurt. Um, and there's definitely like some moments in my life and in my ministry career that, um, I've, you know, I've struggled with or whatever.

Nick Clason (04:01):
Um, but I'm thankful for each and every stop along the way. I'm thankful for what I've learned at each and every stop along the way, um, and how the Lord has used that to grow me and give me just a, a perspective. And so I say all that to say what I'm about to say. Uh, like I said, may seem like I'm poking holes, like I'm digging, like I'm frustrated and I want as much as I can to preface that and say, I'm really, I'm not okay, especially if you're my boss or HR person and you're signing my paycheck, very appreciative for the job that you've given me. But what I've most recently, especially in this most recent onboarding, and so where I work now, I'm thrilled. I love my job. I love what I do. Um, I love, you know, they believe in me and they're giving me opportunities to go out and run and innovate and try some stuff.

Nick Clason (04:57):
And so for that, I'm incredibly thankful. Um, however, a lot of this stuff is popping up in my brain because of the fact that I'm starting somewhere new. And so, while I'm incredibly thankful what I'm about to say when I'm about to kind of like, um, I dunno, shine a light on, if you will, may seem like I'm aiming it at the church that I'm currently employed at. And by no means am I trying to, like I said, shine a light and be frustrated, whatever. So I think of caveat of that enough, it's been like two minutes of caveat, so you're probably ready to hear what I'm about to say. So in the whole onboarding process, um, actually, lemme see if I can pull it up. Um, in my email, when I first started, I got, um, information on how to set up, uh, my account for our church database, church management software.

Nick Clason (05:54):
Um, I also got information on all my benefits, which obviously I need that, and I'm grateful for, and I'm thankful for, right? Um, let's see, what else do I, I got, I got information on, uh, how to join, like the staff, um, info portal, like, um, it's called leader, Uh, you know, so it's like that plus like, uh, what's, you know, uh, development and stuff like that. Um, email, um, expenses, a couple of different portals for expenses. Um, and then our request, uh, system, which is like requests and calendars, maintenance things. Um, and I'm trying to think what else. Oh, there's, then there's task management software, um, that I had to learn. Then there's keys and there's fobs, uh, to get into doors. And then there's meetings with like department heads, you know, so like, um, how do we, in our, like I'm a youth pastor, so how do we, um, interact with the tech team?

Nick Clason (06:57):
How do we interact with the worship team? How do we interact with the creative team? How do we interact with the communications team and how do we interact with the facilities team? Um, a lot of the answers to that fall under the systems and like portals that I just listed out. Um, however, there's another like meeting to just sort of like a get to know people and then be like, um, kind of hash it out, chat it out, right? And so I, again, I say all that to say like, there's a lot of focus on those things. And as a pastor, um, Jesus committed all of his disciples, including pastors, to go make disciples, make more disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them, commanding them. Any promise that he'll be with us, promise us his presence. I'll be with you always to the very end of the age.

Nick Clason (07:53):
It's Matthew, uh, 28, 18 through 20. So I, I think, again, caveat, love, love my job. I think anyone that you're like questioning, like, why do we need this? Why do we, that this, the other thing, Well, those processes help make us more efficient so that we can, um, not waste time on details and tasks, and those things don't get dropped. And so then thus, therefore, we can be more effective and freed up to make disciples great. I mean, I agree with that. I agree with that on paper. Okay. And then, um, you know, you think about, think about like, what do we do as the church, right? So if I sit down, I'm like, Hey, I need to understand what my role as a youth pastor is in relation to worship, in relation to tech, in relation to facilities, right? Like, what does that, why, why is all that important?

Nick Clason (08:57):
Well, because I'm gonna be using the building. So we need the sound, the lights, the worship, the music, the facility to be ready, set up for a, you know, for what? For our event. Well, what's the purpose of our event? Well, that's to make disciples, right? It's really easy. And Ayanna, I can't remember who coined this term, you know, but I'm sure you've heard it before, right? There's, there's the tyranny of the urgent, right? There's always something more urgent, pressing. Like right now, I'm looking at my computer and I have one big red, uh, bubble on my email saying I have an unread email. And my human inclination, in fact, like computer companies, software companies, like they, they build it this way to give it like this, like, you know, urgency type of thing. So it's like, Oh, I gotta check that notification, right? That's, that's always the case.

Nick Clason (09:55):
We're always looking to figure out like, what is the most important thing? What do we need to handle most? And so in my church, we meet on Wednesday nights, we also meet on Sunday mornings. And so, and that's, I've had that rhythm before. Uh, but I, I'm most recently came from a church before this where we only had like one week worth of, uh, one thing per week of stu student ministry programming. So Wednesday and Sunday, like, that's, that's rapid to me. Like, it, it feels like much more, uh, much more frenetic of a pace. Frenetic is the wrong word, but like, the frequency is just doubled, right? It's from one time a week to not two times a week, Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. And those gaps are shorter. And so to get my things done in between those two are quicker. And so, like I said, I'm always turning around and finding myself like, Oh, you know, I'm recording this on a Tuesday night, tomorrow morning, uh, is Wednesday, I'll be at church all day long.

Nick Clason (10:51):
And then, because I'm at church all day long on Wednesday, um, I will work most of my day on Thursday and be off on Friday. I gotta get everything between, you know, tomorrow and Thursday ready and locked and loaded for Sunday. And I may in fact get some stuff ready and locked and loaded for Sunday, tomorrow, on Wednesday before I ever even, uh, you know, host the next event. I'm two events ahead, right? And that's, if I'm really, you know, most people say, Oh, it's if you're really well planned and that's, you're really on top of things. And, and I like to think I am. However, that there, you know, there's always, like, you always work best under pressure. Um, there's actually like a psychological term of that called like forced focus. And so if you're forced to focus, like as you're zeroing in on an event, no matter how good, and well you are planned out, like, you'll come up with something, you're like, Shoot, it was a good idea.

Nick Clason (11:47):
I should have done that. You know, So anyway, all that right? Aha. That to be said, What, why are we doing church? Like, we're not in the event business, but we are a little bit, right? And here's why. This is a hybrid conversation because, uh, 10, even 10 years ago, maybe like 20 at the most, right? The way to gather together in the way to disseminate, uh, information, theological information, with the exception of the Bible in like print pieces, using printing press, books, magazines, whatever, newspaper articles, like the only way to distribute that information was through the local church. And so thus, the regular gathering was really important because you'd come together and maybe the church would have access to these print pieces of these magazines. They'd get 'em in bulk or whatever, and they'd provide them for their parishioners, their congregation members. But now, since the advent of the internet, all that stuff is available to people.

Nick Clason (12:51):
And so the novelty of church or the uniqueness that it brought, it, it almost feels like it's not there as much. And then again, what are we doing? Like, we're making disciples through the context of hosting events. And I, I, I, I think events matter, and I think they're important. Um, you know, but like, like I, I told you a couple episodes ago, go back and listen to it where I said, Hey, here's what we're, you know, trying to do on social media or whatever, Um, trying to launch some stuff. I just pulled TikTok open on my account, and that's why you heard some background noise on that. Um, and I'm gonna do it again right here, but, um, listen, like I, we posted a like sermon, uh, recap deal, um, couple weeks ago, and I had a 437 views on, on one of those, right?

Nick Clason (13:49):
That's one of my higher ones. That's, that's, you know, better than most. But here's the thing that's kind of crazy. Think about like, when I gather all my students together, um, I have like a hundred, a hundred students, and that's, that's good, right? That's, that's pretty big. Um, some, you know, somewhere between 102 hundred students all together, if everyone showed up, you, if you're a youth pastor, you know how this goes, right? And so, uh, what's more advantageous? Well, I know, I know the students in my room, so I have a captive audience. I'm able to disciple them a little bit better. I'm able to craft the message, um, so that they hear what, you know, maybe they need to hear whatever they're like struggling with or through. However, like the reach on TikTok is like five times that with that one video. You know, some videos are smaller, like, you know, the most recent one I think had like 19.

Nick Clason (14:44):
So it's, it's obviously a lot, a lot smaller. And, uh, TikTok is less about who you follow and more about being, being discovered. And so, um, what is the next step for those audience members and all that stuff. All all that being said, like I know I find myself being challenged to be a disciple maker, be a dis be a disciple myself, of Jesus, and out of the overflow of that, make more and better disciples of him. And the, the context or the fabric, which with which at least the majority of the time of my job is soaked into, is through executing and, um, planning events, maintaining a physical facility, and, you know, worrying about branding, messaging, signage, like all those ancillary pieces. And you know, when it's all said and done, like officially on my, like, I don't, I don't have a time sheet, I'm salaried, right?

Nick Clason (15:53):
But if I did like on my time sheet, like Sunday mornings with students is probably like two hours. And then Wednesday nights with students is another like two hours. And if I'm like a really good youth pastor and I'm like getting coffee or going to football games, let's say that's another like two to four hours. Like in my 40 hour week, I spend eight, eight hours a great week, maybe 10 hours if I'm like super over the top, like really on it with actual teenagers. And like, I get it, right? Like in Ephesians, Paul said, Equipped the saints for works and acts of service. And like you heard, to have a hundred, a hundred plus kids, like, and we have small group leaders that, you know, it's, it's technically their job on our, in our pipeline to like, make that happen. But like, call to make disciples.

Nick Clason (16:45):
And so again, I say all this to say like, I'm not disgruntled, not angry. I love my church. And quite frankly, like I'm here because I'm so passionate about this hybrid stuff and in marrying like the digital with the physical, not because I love digital so much, cuz I really don't, but because I think that, well, I know that there's 167 other hours a week that the one hour a week that kids are sitting in our service, in my church I have too. So 166 hours in addition in a student's life, what am I doing then? How am I reaching a student where they are? How are they learning, growing, developing deeper into the core characters of Christ and doing the things that he challenged them to do? How else are they coming across those things? If it's not just a wins in night when they're in the building with me, or on a Sunday morning when they're in the building with me. Like when else are they being challenged by their youth pastor, by their church to live out their faith, to live out their faith, to learn the knowledge, to understand the things and tenants of the Bible, but

Nick Clason (17:48):
Also then to carry out that message to their friends, to reach their friends who are far from Jesus, to, to share the message of hope, the gospel with their friends who don't know him, to grow deeper in their relationship, to hone their skills, their character, so that it mirrors more closely like Christ to, to follow what, what his mission was that he laid out. I mean, this is so much more than how do I return in my receipts and how do I learn the softwares in the systems? Like I get it, right? Like at church is an organization. And without those things, you know, it would probably be far less effective. I get it. And you know, it's, it, it, maybe it's just a necessary evil, I don't know. Um, but it's just, it's something that got me thinking, like, you know, sit in a staff meeting today and we're just going over tons and tons of logistics and you know, like I said, I love my job.

Nick Clason (18:45):
I have a really great job, and they're, they're allowing us to think outside the box and allowing us to break the mold a little bit. And so I'm, I'm really grateful for that. Um, but I just wonder if sometimes church, not just my church, all churches get a sucked into the tyranny of the urgent and b, turn into event makers as opposed to makers of disciples, builders of disciples, crafting, honing the next generation to look and act more like the person of Jesus. Like that's, that was his commission. So if we start with that, if we, if we start with the why, like why do we do this? And is an event the most effective way to do it? Probably, Or at least, at least if it's not, it's, it's a part of a hybrid solution to what the future looks like. And I don't have all the answers.

Nick Clason (19:38):
And that's you. That's, I think that's why I'm coming across passionate and potentially angry. I'm not angry. I'm really not. I'm just, I, I'm really, I'm right now I'm gonna study provided through my church about 50 days through the life of Christ. It's an amazing study. I've done it before. I'm doing it again, just being reminded about how intentional Jesus was about investing in people living life with his disciples and modeling for them what his ministry model was. And, and then I turn around and I'm, you know, I'm having to like, figure out how to like submit her a seat cuz I've never done it before. Cuz you know, I always had my admin do it. And, uh, she, she recently left and started a new job somewhere else. And so we're looking for one. And you know, I'm like slugging through that a little bit and I'm like, man, I get it.

Nick Clason (20:28):
Like right. It's necessary. And if anyone, if anyone from where I work hears this, they're gonna like, think I'm just this ungrateful, you know, complaining guy. Like I'm not, I'm really not. I'm just, I'm wrestling with like, what's the most important and how do we, how do we create something to respond to the tyranny of the urgent while not losing ourselves in the making of disciples. And I think that that's, I think every youth pastor, I think every pastor, every person in vocational ministry feels that tension at some point. So if you're in vocational ministry, let me hear it from you. Um, we're in this together and like I said, I love where I work. I don't have all the answers, um, but it's just something that got me thinking today. So I don't know. Listen bro, this is like a stream of consciousness. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna have chapter markers for this at the end of the day. Like this is just me rambling talking for 20 minutes. So if you found a helpful, let me know. Reach out on Twitter at hybrid ministry or, uh, swing by the website, hybridministry.xyz. Uh, and until next time, we'll talk to you later. Peace out my friends.

Episode 010: Common Myths about Generation Z and how to Reach them in 2022

Nick Clason — Thu, 22 Sep 2022 04:00:00 -0500

In this short solo episode, Nick unpacks a HubSpot.com article about common Generation Z myths in marketing and he relates those to and draws parrallels to what he sees happening in the church. How can we adjust some of our approach, what we do, and how we attempt to evangelize and disciple teenagers, and the future attenders of our churchs.

SHOWNOTES
https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/gen-z-myths?utm_campaign=Marketing%20Blog%20-%20Daily%20Emails&utm_medium=email&utm_content=223400490&utm_source=hs_email

TIMECODES
00:00-00:35 Myths about Generation Z
00:35-3:34 Why do we keep focusing on Gen Z?
3:34-6:04 Myth 1: Gen Z is obsessed with fast fashion
6:04-8:22 Myth 2: Data and Privacy are irrelevant to Gen Z
8:22-10:43 Myth 3: TikTok is the best place to reach Gen Z
10:43-14:51 Myth 4: Put a product in front of Gen Z and they will buy it
14:51-17:15 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What's up everybody and welcome to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast, solo pod this morning. Uh, I mentioned several weeks back, uh, that I had just given notice to my church. Um, and so I'm kind of in a little bit of a transition. And so I'm from church and Chicago to a church in, uh, Dallas, Texas. And so got weird travel schedule going on. So me and Matt's, uh, schedule is having a hard time lining up. So, uh, today I just wanted to chat through just a quick couple of generation Z. Um, miss, uh, and the first thing I wanted to do with that is, uh, I pulled this article from a HubSpot article. I'll link it in the show notes, super interesting. And obviously HubSpot is not a Christian company. And so they're focused more on marketing than they are, you know, like on the church or whatever.

Nick Clason (00:53):
Uh, but what I wanted to say was I wanted to say, why, why do we keep honing in on gen Z? Um, I think, uh, I've just had like a, I don't know, a realization over the last little bit that like churches are, um, built, I think for, for older generations, you know, they're, they're, they're doing it the way, um, it's always been done. Um, and I think that there is probably a rethink that needs to take place. And I think that when you say that to, to maybe some older generations, gen X, um, boomer, there's just an immediate knee jerk of like, you know, you can't get rid of this, you can't get rid of that. Maybe the Sunday morning se sermon, um, the way we dress, the way we do things like, and I get that, right. There's a, there's a safety and a comfort in, um, just the traditions and the habits that have been built.

Nick Clason (01:47):
But I think gen Z is actually a really interesting case study because, and the reason I think it's important is because I don't know that the church is being super, um, relevant to reach them. I think that the church is doing things the way it's always been done. I think you look across the landscape of, uh, church leadership. The majority of church leaders are older in their forties, fifties, some even in their sixties. Um, and you know, like you, you hate to like categorize anybody, but they may just be kinda like hanging on until retirement. And so are they really looking to innovate? Are they really looking to reach and like, sure they're looking to reach, um, but maybe they're trying to do so in such a way that is done, um, reaching people the way that, that, that they're used to reaching it and the type of model that they're built. And so the reason we keep honing in, at least I keep honing in on gen Z. First of all, like I've said before, I am a youth pastor. So that is, you know, immediately in my kinda like purview. But the second thing is I think the church needs to adapt, not because to try and reach a specific generation, but because them millennials as well and all the generations that are gonna

Nick Clason (02:58):
Come after gen Z are gonna be different. So how can the church, which is in my personal and theological opinion, the most relevant institution in the world, it is the one that has stood the test of time. And so this isn't me coming in and just like slinging mud at the church. It's me, um, caring deeply about the church and how do we help take it to what could be the next level. And so, um, just one this article, like I said, okay, so we're gonna kind of dive into this article, um, is five, five gen Z myths debunked. Um, and so the first one, it says gen Z is obsessed with fast fashion. All right. So obviously as a church, we don't give a ton of care to fashion or apparel or they're pur purchasing things. However, um, you know, I think that the, the, the thing that is interesting to pull kind of out of this point here is that they're saying that they're interested in fast fashion.

Nick Clason (03:56):
That is a myth. Um, and it's not just about what's cheapest because as I'm looking at a graph that they share question here says, does gen Z think companies should take a stance on social issues? Uh, 50% of gen Z say yes, where 26% say no, and then 24% say not sure. And I think that that piece right there is incredibly relevant for the church, because I think oftentimes as a church, we, uh, hold back our opinions because we're afraid, uh, to ostracize anybody. And I understand it and I get the notion of it. I get the importance of staying in the middle. Uh, but the people, especially the younger people that we're serving, they wanna know where we stand on things. They want us to take a stance. And that's difficult, I think, as a church because, you know, uh, gen Z tends to skew maybe a little bit more left and our church tends to skew maybe a little bit more, right.

Nick Clason (04:51):
If we're just speaking politically. And so how do you take a stance on what I think is most important is to take a stance the way that Jesus would take a stance. Uh, but that can be challenging, cuz that might go against either a, a gen Z type person or B, it might go against, uh, the rest of your church or their, their older framework. So how is the church? Do you have the courage to stand up and to take the stances that you need to take the, and the stances that matter to gen Z? Um, and I think perhaps the reason that we pull back on that as a church is because our church's stance coming from maybe a little more conservative position is gonna go against a little more liberal of a position of, uh, what gen Z you know, uh, typically cares about the final paragraph, right? Just to kind of highlight that the final paragraph of this, um, this first point says we, when we ask gen Zers who want companies to take a stance on which issues and which are most important to them, racial justice was by far the top at 69% followed by LGBTQ plus rights, 50% gender inequality, 46 and climate change,

Nick Clason (05:57):

So again, just to highlight the things that gen Z is saying is the most important thing for them. Uh, the second thing here, the second myth that is debunked is that data, privacy and security are irrelevant for gen Z. And so again, they're saying that that's a myth, right? Because you know, it says here this first paragraph, I get why many people believe this one gen Z's known for being glued to their phones, which obviously comes with the risk of unsecured and unrestricted data. Right? However, it actually is the kind of the opposite. So gen Z's looking for data security, they want that to matter. So as a church, as you're creating more, maybe hybrid opportunities online giving, um, collecting their data, how are you, um, how are you, uh, keeping track of their data and how are you ensuring that it's it's safe, right?

Nick Clason (06:47):
Uh, furthermore, it goes on to share graph and it says, uh, gen Z's more likely to purchase from brands that number one treat their employees. Well, that's at 84% that they can trust with their data as high as 83%, um, donate to a, a portion of their profits to charity 68% actively try to reduce the environmental impact. 60% are committed to diversity and inclusion. 53% and advocate for racial justice. 51% are small businesses. 46% advocate for gender equality. 42% are owned by a person of color. 39% are owned by a member of LGBTQ. Plus 38% are woman owned, 37% and advocate for LGBTQ rights, 37%. So as you can see, the purchase decisions are strongly influenced by whether or not they can trust a company with their data, second ranked highest, but also the care about the, the issues like the, the social issues. And they're looking for those things, they care about those things.

Nick Clason (07:42):
And so they're gonna trust and subsequently not trust institutions that, um, that care about the things that they care about and the church we're an institution, just, we are, we're a large institution. I know we're not really a family and it should be different. And once you get into a church, I think you typically find that in most churches, especially the ones that are healthy, um, but from an outsider, especially a gen Z outsider, looking in, they're gonna look at that institution and they're gonna have some pause. They're gonna be concerned, you know, about a couple of things. Um, and as a church, how do we, how do we best make a bridge towards them? Okay. The third myth to debunk and this, listen, this is something we've talked about in this podcast. A billion times, TikTok is the best way to reach gen Z. All right. So check out what this first paragraph here says. This is a TikTok is obviously a great space for gen Z. It offers a genuine feel to the content that no other app provides. The style is quite attractive for some of our shorter attention spans and busy schedules. And in fact, 10 TikTok is the app that gen Z uses most often, despite this surprisingly, or maybe not. It is not our favorite social media platform when

Nick Clason (08:54):
Asked gen Z of their favorite social media app, Instagram and YouTube easily took the cake with TikTok being placed as third. So Instagram was 27%. YouTube was 23%. TikTok was 14% Facebook, 11% Snapchat, 10%. So again, we've been talking about short form video content, and I, we still think that that is king and we also have never advocated against YouTube, um, and Instagram. And so, um, especially Instagram with the, with the big push that they have right now towards reals. And so TikTok, uh, obviously is short form video content. And I think TikTok has pushed other platforms to kind of invest in that and make that more of a priority. And so how can you do that? What can you be pushing towards in that way? Um, but also, uh, Matt said this a couple weeks ago, too. Um, he said, once you reach someone with, with a TikTok video, like, yeah, that's great.

Nick Clason (09:48):
And all, uh, but then like, what do you, um, how do you sell them? Like, what's the next step? What's the conversion that takes place? Cause talk's a lot more just about discovery. So you discover something, but like even when you follow people on TikTok, it doesn't necessarily show them. Cuz I think majority of people spend their time on their four up page. And so you may gain a bunch of followers on TikTok, but are you showing up regularly in other people's algorithms and then thus right as a marketer, how then do you, uh, convert that into something that's actually meaningful into getting their information as a church? Um, if you're a marketer into getting their information so that you can sell them something that's a much, a much tougher sell, especially on something like TikTok. And so it's actually beneficial and advantageous to us that that Instagram and YouTube are still higher, that we can still invest in those platforms just as, as equally.

Nick Clason (10:43):
All right. The fourth myth here put a product in front of gen Z and they will buy it. So it says even though they gravitate towards TikTok style content doesn't mean they're receptive to just any form of short form video. Um, subsequently it says how, you know, how does gen Z prefer to discover new products on social media? Uh, 41% says through short form video. So again, that underscores what we've been saying, 36 through ads or sponsored content 32 through a feed post 29 through social media shops where purchase app happens through a story post, uh, 25% and then through an influencer 25%. All right. And so basically they there's, they just, just prefer to discover things maybe through TikTok reels or other short form videos. Um, but they don't want to imposed on them. Right. And so, uh, it actually, it goes on to say here in a world where we often feel are made to feel powerless, we strongly value a sense of autonomy and agency help us feel empowered through your actions.

Nick Clason (11:45):
So think about that as a church, um, we're pushing something, um, we're not selling anything, right. Um, but, but there is a level of decision that needs to be made specifically with regards to Jesus and with regards to the gospel. So how do we put the agency back in the hands of the people that we're trying to reach? Um, and a message, right. John 14, six, I am the way the truth and the life, the the is a very exclusive article there. Um, meaning that Jesus is putting and positioning himself as the person of the foremost authority. He is the way to the father. So how do we communicate that message in a culture? Um, and to a generation that they don't wanna be told what to believe. They don't wanna be told what to do. They wanna make the decision for themselves. They wanna be given the options.

Nick Clason (12:37):
And then they want to look around, see what their friends are thinking, um, or come to those decisions. So how do we as a church position and posture ourselves to not make it all about us, but instead to make it about the students that we are reaching. Okay. Um, and then the fifth myth here, um, word of mouth is a great way to reach gen Z, right? And I know that this one might seem contradictory. Um, but gen Z is feeling stressed outta control, doomed, like the weight of the world lies on their shoulders. And so with all this marketing that comes at them, um, we've turned, uh, what we wanna do is we wanna, um, everybody wants to put and push. Um, everybody wants to put and push an agenda, right? But like what's, what's most important, I think is still the human to human connection.

Nick Clason (13:25):
And obviously here we are, right. We're a, a podcast talking about the way to do ministry in a hybrid way, but there's still something about that human to human connection. And they still care about what other people say. Right. I use a lawn care company based on a recommendation. I use a plumber based on a recommendation. I feel better about things based on a recommendation than, um, a bunch of things on Google. And if I don't have that right, I then will go to Google or go to Yelp and look at reviews. Okay. So, uh, this graph here under this, this myth here, what channels have gen Z discovered new products on in the past three months? So 57% through social media, 46% through YouTube ad 42% by searching the internet 36 in retail stores, 30 by word of mouth, 23 through ads on film, TV, uh, streaming 19 through television, and then 19 through ads on music streaming like Pandora, SoundCloud, Spotify.

Nick Clason (14:19):
So, uh, the marketing, what this is saying, right? The marketing into gen Z spaces is that they feel comfortable on social media. Um, and that's the places that they're looking. And so, you know, even like I was saying, word of mouth, it's still, it's still value. It's still important. Um, what if your word of mouth can also underscore and come alongside of some of your online things? What if it can come alongside of some of the ads that, that they're seeing, cuz that's where they're, they're discovering the, the majority of what they, um, are, are buying and what they're purchasing.

Nick Clason (14:51):
So, Hey, listen guys, again, appreciate you for being here. Uh, sorry for the, the format. Sorry. Matt's not on. Um, but uh, just, I read the article. I found it super interesting and thought, man, there's a lot of like implications for the church. Um, we are, we're moving into a different age and you know, I think that the church is, I mean, I don't think I know that the church, uh, will prevail. It always has. It always will. Um, but the generations behind it are less and less, um, interested in just, uh, buying into it, hook, line and sinker. And so how do we as churches, position, posture, ourselves to make, to make the most effective impact in the lives of generations, these students, because before we know it, they're gonna be the ones that are in their twenties and then thirties and forties, and they're gonna be the ones in our churches.

Nick Clason (15:41):
And so we can't just keep doing things the way that we've always been doing it. Digital is incredibly important to them and the lifestyle that they're living. So how do we, as a church also find ourselves into their lives through digital means through marketing, through advertising now because we're trying to market Jesus, but because we're trying to, to reach people who are far from him and who are spending their time on these types of platforms and in these types of spaces and are becoming more and more comfortable with it. And just because they're comfortable with it and we may be less and less comfortable or even frankly uncomfortable with it, uh, doesn't mean we shouldn't, uh, force ourselves to, to figure it out and learn it and work through it. So thank you guys again for hanging out. Give us a like a subscribe. I mean, we would love to hear from you, um, from a, a review, just pull, open your purple podcast app on your iPhone and leave us a five star review, um, and a rating that would be incredible.

Nick Clason (16:43):
We are online at [hybridministry.xyz](hybridministry.xyz) and on Twitter at hybrid ministry. Look forward to connecting with you there. Hey, listen, like I said, I am in the middle of a little bit of a transition once things get settled a little bit, um, look for quite a bit more resources information, um, uh, you know, downloadables freebie stuff that we're gonna be given away, uh, really looking forward to growing and expanding the community and our reach here on this podcast. So again, thanks for hanging with us and we will talk to you next time.

Episode 007: The Best Content Marketing Strategies for your churches in 2022

Nick Clason — Thu, 01 Sep 2022 04:00:00 -0500

In this episode, Nick and Matt discuss what content marketing is. Should churches even be using marketing? Why is content marketing so effective? And what are some examples of blogs, pillar pages, white paper, ebooks and podcasts to help your church reach Gen Z and Millennials in a Digital and Hybrid form of ministry?

LINKS
EBOOK EXAMPLE
https://21023629.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/21023629/101%20Things%20to%20do%20this%20Summer.pdf?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=220409116&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--GvYYsBn799IT7tZQ07OLdeLeNshWl6rRnS5f0wNelRUcxnmSP6GBZ4rNYmusr63ghavYI8SAUk3drn2tD3kuUF929s7xlw622qVQVuVCXDVsrlvE&utm_content=220409116&utm_source=hs_automation

WHITE PAPER
https://www.dare2share.org/gospel-advancing/value1-prayer

MICHAEL HYATT'S BLOG
https://fullfocus.co/blog/

CROSSROADS PODCAST NETWORK
https://www.crossroads.net/media/podcasts/

PILLAR PAGE EXAMPLE
https://www.typeform.com/blog/guides/brand-awareness/

TIMECODES
00:00-02:42 Intro and Beard Discussion
02:42-05:33 Should churches do marketing?
05:33-11:02 Why Content Marketing is so effective
11:02-16:53 How do develop a church ebook
16:53-23:49 How to use White Paper for churches
23:49-27:45 Blogging for churches
27:45-33:29 Podcasting for churches
33:29-34:24 Pillar Pages for Churches
34:24-37:00 How to convince your boss
37:00-38:37 How to get started on each item
38:37-40:48 Which one do I start with?
40:48-44:36 What are the best services to use to capture this stuff?
44:36-45:38 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast. In today's episode, we are going to be talking about marketing in the church. And what exactly is content marketing? I'm your host, Nick Clason sitting in alongside my amazing friend. The bearded wonder himself, Matt Johnson, how you doing this morning? And how's your beard.

Matt Johnson (00:27):
Beard is good. Trimmed up, you know, a little bit cleaner, you know, we're, we're in summertime. So, you know, I like to keep a little shorter and,

Nick Clason (00:34):
Uh, is that like shots fired at me? Is that shots fired at my no,

Matt Johnson (00:37):
No shots fired at you it off. Cause when the winter comes around, I stopped trim it. So

Nick Clason (00:45):
Yeah. It's nice. Well, I mean, I just announced everybody that I'm gonna be moving to Texas, so I don't even know if I'm gonna see winter anymore.

Matt Johnson (00:54):
Probably not. No. I think, uh, your winters are in the past now, so which is really good for you.

Nick Clason (01:00):
Yeah. And my wife told me my Beard's looking kind of boxy, so I'm not sure what to do with that. I feel like that's code code for trim it.

Matt Johnson (01:08):
code for shape it a little bit.

Nick Clason (01:11):
Yeah. Come on, get rid of the box there. So yeah. Anyway, I interrupted you. You said you're doing good.

Matt Johnson (01:17):
Yeah, I'm doing good. How are you doing

Nick Clason (01:19):
Great, man. Great. I'm a little sleepy cuz you know it's it's Thursday. We had church last night. So of course I was out late, but oh as well. Um, some do idiot decided to plan an event with silly string. And then I watched as the facilities team looked glaringly and begrudgingly on at the mess that was being made on the patio. And I thought to myself, dang it. Now I probably should clean this up. So that took a minute

Matt Johnson (01:51):
Oh, let me get a little silly string,

Nick Clason (01:54):
Um, silly string and then

Matt Johnson (01:55):
We're very messy

Nick Clason (01:57):
And then we're getting ready to do a, a, a baptism out on the patio. So there's a big tub out there. And of course all the kids are like getting water from it and throwing it on each other. So whoever thought let's get this set up on a Wednesday before the event, they, they obviously forgot that we were gonna be out there. So

Matt Johnson (02:15):
Yeah, like let's get ahead of it. Be prepared. Oh actually we made a bigger mess and we had to refill it up.

Nick Clason (02:22):
Exactly. And they're initially stringing it now. So

Matt Johnson (02:25):
well, people are getting baptized Sunday. You know, you might find some silly string.

Nick Clason (02:31):
You might come out with some, uh, lines of pink on you. It's okay. Don't worry. It's not no need that's it's just silly string.

Matt Johnson (02:38):
No need to concern yourself.

Nick Clason (02:40):
So, uh, Matt, one of the things I think is an interesting conversation and I'd like to talk about it first here is like, is marketing a thing that churches should even be focused on? Cause a lot of what we're talking about, uh, in, in all these episodes is marketing is kind, kind of like brand recognition, getting yourself out there and different tips and strategies for that. And so I think there may just be a natural aversion to the word marketing, cuz it sounds very secular. It sounds very like businessy. Um, so what, what would be your response to someone who is like marketing in the church? Like, you know, you should be flipping tables for that.

Matt Johnson (03:19):
absolutely. No, I, I used to be under that ideas. Like why would you ever market Jesus? Like that's not something that needs to be marketed mm-hmm and I think something that you should think about when we think about marketing is not your traditional sense of marketing, of like, Hey, there's a billboard for us. We have commercials. We have radio ads or even like Facebook or TikTok ads. Um, that's not what I'm talking. That's not the primary focus of market anymore. Primary focus marketing is, uh, really just awareness and something. I always go, Seth, always you're marketing, trying to change world with your marketing, you're failing as a marketer. Um, so when you put that in a context, your marketing mind should shift cuz I mean we're working in the church and you should be trying to change the world. So this is definitely something that we should be, you know, evangelizing essentially.

Matt Johnson (04:11):
And it's I'm so what, how a good way to put this in your mind is like, Hey, how do we do a, you know, have an evangelistic mindset for our church in the modern era. And uh, I always just think back to, you know, the pastorals they've marketed Christianity in a totally different way. So it's always been quote marketed, but you just gotta think that brand awareness, bringing awareness to what you're trying to do and how you're trying to help the community and that stuff not, Hey, come by Jesus. Cause if, and if that's what you're at, like you're totally missing the entire point of everything we've talked about.

Nick Clason (04:46):
Yeah. I think about Paul says, uh, I become all things to all people and I think that he would use the digital means that are available to him today, you know, to, to help get the message of Jesus spread. You know, I think one of the, I dunno, probably issues or maybe concerns would just be that there seems to be an oversaturation maybe of messaging out there. And so how can, uh, how can the church stand apart? Like what sets them, you know, in obviously we're, we're coming from a different position, but how do we do it? Well, because if we, I feel like if we don't do it well, we're just gonna get lost in a sea of kinda white noise that's out there.

Matt Johnson (05:31):
Yep, exactly.

Nick Clason (05:33):
So, uh, one of the, one of the things you told me the other day was, uh, this idea about content marketing. So first of all, mm-hmm what is content marketing?

Matt Johnson (05:45):
Yeah. So content marketing is this idea that you're using content that you're creating to market. So it's like, again, we're not talking about, you know, TikTok ads, Facebook ads, Instagram ads, we're not talking about, um, popup ads or uh, um, ads before a YouTube video. We're actually talking about giving people in our churches and that we want to come to our church content, that markets who we are. Um, so we'll get into all the nitty gritty details of what that looks like in a little bit, but uh, it's just providing a value, um, more than just a Hey here's who we are.

Nick Clason (06:25):
Yeah. Or here's service times, right? Or here's, here's our address. You should come to our service. Like it's, it's providing, I like that we're providing value, you know, giving them something that they can, that that's useful to them valuable to them. And Matt, do you think, um, before we get to nitty gritty, do you think that this type of thing, if you're gonna try and provide quote unquote value, can it be done on multiple levels? Can you provide value, um, and information content to people that are already disciples inside your church and people not inside your church? Or do you feel like you need to choose one or the other? Like what would you say to that?

Matt Johnson (07:07):
No, I would say it could be both very easily. Um, as you start, you know, deciding what the content you wanna do and what the purpose of your content is, you can really start to figure out what that value is. You add, um, content marketing can virtual your people that already disciples, and then it can also bring in you new people can be an evangelism tool at Casa breed, new discipleship tool. You have so many avenues that can go with content marketing, um, and all that stuff that we had talked about, like services and, uh, we, this,

Nick Clason (07:54):
No, I was say, yeah, if you add value, then there's gonna be a more natural trust that's built and then an easier step into coming to service or coming to that event because you've already, you've already built a bridge and a relationship to those people.

Matt Johnson (08:10):
Exactly. Yep.

Nick Clason (08:12):
So I think, you know, so then if it can be done for both, then this doesn't feel like such a, such a foreign idea to the job description of most local church pastors. I think what it does maybe feel like though is, uh, like a lot of extra work, um, at least, you know, for me, you know, not cuz I'm not really sure what we're talking about with the, when it pertains to content marketing. So let's dive into that, but first tell, tell everyone the stat you told me the other day about why content marketing is so effective.

Matt Johnson (08:47):
Yeah. Content marketing is the most effective form of marketing that, you know, us marketing experts have identified right now. And I can see this, this personally and all the stuff that we've been testing through my career, but, uh, it's 64% more effective than traditional marketing. It's three times cheaper. So when you hear that, you go, okay, I'm gonna get better results and spend way less money, which is always news, good news to the years of anybody that's got a strict budget. So yeah. Uh, if you can really start implementing some of this, uh, content marketing strategy, uh, you're gonna start seeing results and you're gonna be able to grow your torch or church organically. So mm-hmm

Nick Clason (09:29):
Yeah. And so like, alright, so then let's take all that. So we're not marketing Jesus. We're just creating awareness around our church, which our church is truly speaking. The best message that there is in the entire world, the literal good news that you can have death, or you can have life because your sin has caused you death. And so we want to share that message with people and we want to, uh, go to the ends of the earth. And so we're going to use the digital means that are given to us. We've become all things to all people to get this message out there. And in light of all that it is the most effective form of marketing secular or not. And it is also the cheapest or maybe it's not the cheapest, but it's three times more cheap you said than, than some of the other ones.

Nick Clason (10:12):
So in light of all that, it bodes really well because all, all it really requires of us. The cost, it really requires of us is just some, some like additional work or some, you know, this sounds so old, but some elbow grease, I don't know if that's a thing people say anymore, but just get down, get down. Yeah. I don't know, whatever. Get in there, make some stuff happen. Um, create some things. And so I think like the way I think about it is there's really like two prongs to it. There's the content and then there's the distribution of it. Right. So let's talk through just some of the actual content first. Um, and then when we get done with that, let's just chat through like different ways that churches can begin to create a distribution model for it, whether that's through setting up ads or websites or whatever the case may be. Sound good.

Matt Johnson (11:00):
Mm yep. Sounds great.

Nick Clason (11:02):
All right. So, uh, what the first one I have in mind is an ebook. Can you, I mean, most people know an ebook is, but can you give a few ideas or a few examples of what an ebook might look like for a church or how they could use an ebook as a form of content marketing?

Matt Johnson (11:18):
Absolutely. So I'll give some like real practical examples too, that, uh, I've personally helped create or that we've used. So, uh, one of our most recent one was the summer ebook, which I believe we probably talked about in a performer. Uh, and we're about to launch our fall ebook and, uh, what these eBooks are designed to is for our next gen ministry at, uh, our current church. And that is really to help, you know, promote everything you can do with your kids, um, in the summer or the fall at the end of the ebook we're promoting event. So for the summer one, it was to really promote, uh, summer jam, which is our version of vacation Bible school. And then now for the follow you book, we're gonna be promoting trunk or treat, which, you know, we all know what trunk or treat is. And it's just a good way to like, Hey, we have this resource for you.

Matt Johnson (12:03):
That's not all about who we are, but this resource can also bring you to us. Um, another good example is like, uh, you, Nick who's, you know, a youth leader, you could create an ebook for your summer camp. Um, like, uh, mm-hmm, , here's, uh, the summer camp checklist for every student, for every parent. Like you can create an ebook about that stuff. Or, um, for small groups you can create ebook about like, Hey, here's everything you need to know about joining a small group or, um, you know, so on and so on and so on. So they're just sit down and think of like, okay, what could I actually fill, you know, like 10 pages of, with some fun stuff and it doesn't have to be like, copy extensive. It can honestly just be a lot of images checklist, but you have a ton of opportunity there. And it's a way to get people to actually give you their email and their phone number mm-hmm and then we can reach out to them. And it's also a good way to promote, Hey, this is what we have going on.

Nick Clason (13:00):
Yeah. So like, so on a workflow side, the ebook, we curated ideas for families. So all we did was we just sent out emails and texts to people who have young kids and say, what are things you know about? And then we just threw it all together in a big Google doc, and then we organized it. And so like a couple of fun things that we did within that was we did like a park list. So broken down by city or community, we just gave them names of good parks. Another thing we did was we created an ice cream trail, uh, so that families could have a, like a, a goal to try and hit every ice cream shop or whatever over the course of the summer. Um, and that, wasn't a thing that was created. Like we just gathered different ice cream places. And then we created, uh, this quote unquote trail, you know, like, like when I lived in Cincinnati a couple years ago, there was a, an official like donut trail.

Nick Clason (13:58):
And that, you know, that was a thing that was like actually known and marketed, but like this ice cream trail thing, like we just came up with this. Um, and then other thing we did was we made like a, we made like a scavenger hunt, um, in, in there about like different parks and stuff. So if you figure out like a local park or preserve or whatever, like try and find a caterpillar or try and find a leaf or whatever. And so theoretically you could print that out if you're like a family and you could take that to the preserve with you or to the park, and then you could do your little scavenger hunt thing. And so I think, like to Matt's point, what you're saying is you're like, this is the thing that provides value and it isn't even a promotion of an event or a promotion of our church.

Nick Clason (14:37):
It's really just a way for us as a, as an organization to help support, um, families, you know, in, in this time to give 'em something to do over the summer. Cause everyone's looking for different things to do, you know, over the summer. And so, so you can do that. Yeah. That's what we did, but you can do that all kinds of different things. So I'm gonna throw the link in there to, uh, our ebook into the show notes in case you wanna check it out. Um, but, and you might get subscribed to our email list as a result of that, but Hey, that'd be cool too. Um, anything else on eBooks, Matt?

Matt Johnson (15:11):
Um, no, I think that's about all I have on eBooks, honestly. Uh, yeah.

Nick Clason (15:17):
How

Matt Johnson (15:17):
Long they use 'em they're really easy to make.

Nick Clason (15:20):
Let me ask you this. So we, we crafted, we came up with all the content, right? Like here's the list of things and then we organized it and then we handed it to you and you actually, you know, usually you outsource this, but this time you just created it, how long did that take you to create it? And where did you create it?

Matt Johnson (15:38):
Uh, I created it in Canva cuz I just, uh, wanted to, you know, see what, what we could do with Canva. I'm not, I usually use Adobe and stuff for that kind of, uh, project. Um, honestly probably took about two to three hours to do the whole thing, um, of actual work it's, I mean it took, you know, more time cause there was a lot back and forth and approval processes and all that kinda stuff, but uh, yeah. And then when can have cheap, you can do it for like 12 bucks a month and for the pro version of it and really create something nice, but you can use free version to make a pretty ebook. And if you really wanna get like creative, you do Photoshop and illustrator and um, put all in design. So,

Nick Clason (16:17):
And last, last I checked, I think Canada has a nonprofit license for churches. So you can look into, into that and reach out about that. And so that's a really great free resource. So, you know, theoretically from cover to cover, you did that in two to three hours. So anyone with even a little bit of design ability should be able to throw that together. Not, not too, it's not too much work once you kind of get everything built together. So, um,

Matt Johnson (16:43):
Yeah, you can work off a template.

Nick Clason (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's one of the advantages of Canva. It comes with those things prebuilt in there. So mm-hmm all right. Uh, white pages, um, what, what are those and why are they useful?

Matt Johnson (16:58):
uh, white pages are honestly one of my favorite things to do in marketing, uh, and a white page is usually just an informational document that, um, can highlight features of like the church, your product, like whatever that looks like to whatever you're trying to market, um, could be your services, uh, and what you can do with like white papers, which we, uh, I did when I was working at dare to share was, uh, we did a white paper for all the gospel advancing values, all a sudden values. So each value had a white paper for it and it was a, you know, a highlighted solution of like what those values looked like. And those were one of our greatest lead generators to get leaders, to become gospel advancing leaders. So, um, find that thing that you were like, okay, we could actually write an informational document about this.

Matt Johnson (17:50):
So, uh, could that be, maybe you provide daycare at your church, like you're, you should probably do a white paper about why your is a great solution for in the community, just to some there, um, maybe your church, uh, it takes a, you know, um, baby dedication very seriously. So why not do a baby dedication white paper to talk about like the biblical reasons behind that and what the difference between baby dedication and baby baptism is. And, um, especially in our culture, which is, you know, primary Catholic, that's probably something that we should do so people can understand, like we're not, we don't really baptize babies, but we would love to dedicate your baby. And here's the reasons why and stuff like that. So, um, you can really define those solutions. You could honestly do a white paper for all the ministries that you have going on. So we could do a student, uh, white paper. That's all about like what students offers and uh, why, you know, students is a great opportunity. Um, and these can be long documents or they could be, you know, kind an infograph, uh, and I've seen both work really well. And the idea of the white paper is just to have another way to people download and get some more information from you.

Nick Clason (19:01):
Hmm. So it, it sounds like this is like, like a PDF or something like that, that people can download. And then it, it is that what's the reason why that is a good, uh, searchable or lead generator for people. What makes the fact that it's a PDF? What makes it, um, what makes it so good for marketing, I guess on the back end? Like what makes Google find it? Or, you know, whatever.

Matt Johnson (19:31):
Yeah. So you're, there's a couple things. So the big thing that's gonna differ white paper from like the ebook or, um, even some of this other stuff we're gonna talk about is a white paper is a lot of information usually, and people are looking for that for like, you know, uh, literally searching for that information they wanted. They're trying to build trust within. You're gonna build a lot of trust if people download your white paper, mm-hmm so the back end of Google, it's gonna wanna like, so that conversion rate's gonna be really high for the people that are searching for that, which Google is gonna like. Um, so it's gonna be a little more, you know, specific to, um, what you're creating the white paper for, but if people are searching for that, they're gonna Mo you know, there's probably like a 60% chance they're actually gonna download it, which is way better than, you know, an ebook you're probably looking at, you know, an 11% chance to download it if you're, you know, on a good day. So,

Nick Clason (20:27):
So this is something that's like a, a PDF document that you create your positional paper or stance or whatever, maybe with infographics and stuff like that on baby dedication. Why is it good to have all of that information in a downloadable, uh, nice looking PDF style thing, as opposed to all that, like all those keywords and words and verbiage sitting on a website.

Matt Johnson (20:52):
Great question. So the big reason in my mind is cuz it's a marketing lead for me. It's a lead generator for me, so I can get people to download it. Um, and they're gonna give their info and we know, uh, that because people are gonna wanna download it. If they're searching for it, you're more likely like that conversion rate is gonna be higher on it for those white papers. Uh, you're also, um, we'll get into content cluster and we don't want, you know, uh, or pillar page. Uh, those are gonna be a little bit longer. Honestly, a white paper is usually about 2,500 words and I've seen pillar pages that are 30,000 words. So, you know, OK. It's, uh, it could be very, it's a little bit more digestible, but it's a little bit bigger than the ebook. It's more info. Um, it's just kind of a next step for people. So if you are somebody that loves to write, um, you know, you're a pastor that loves writing their sermons a lot, uh, and you are like, Hey, I've always wanted to write a little book or whatever the eBooks, a great Legion, but I wanna write like in depth about, um, something that's going, some solution that we have at our church for, you know, maybe it's for alcoholism or something. And you guys have great solution for that. You have ed, you might write a big thing about that and get that known.

Nick Clason (22:07):
Well, I'm even just thinking about, like, we have a, we have like a, um, in person wall, you know, in our building. And one of the things we have a little pamphlet there and it's just called like the guide to student ministry at our church. And I was like that right there with, I feel like the right like amount of like search terms and, and keywords and stuff like that. That would, that would be a great example of what we're talking about here. Mm-hmm again, right? Like when we created it, we were only thinking about in person experiences. So only people that are gonna be in our lobby looking for it in our lobby, as opposed to also creating it and finding a place for it to live and exist on our website so that people can also find it there. It's just it's that switch. Right? It's that flip of a switch of thinking like you, you, more than likely already have something like this because you've created a brochure or pamphlet or something like that. Mm-hmm so then turn that same piece of content into something that can go, um, on a website, like, like you're talking about.

Matt Johnson (23:06):
Yeah. And, uh, you we've started, I mean, you've probably seen this Nick when we were like staying at church on Sunday, but I don't see a lot of people go to our physical walls without, you know, direction to so, uh, it's not a good awareness piece, you know, I've had plenty of people come on, go what's the student ministry about, I'm like, oh my goodness, we have failed, you know, give them more content to, you know, be able to figure out, you know, and identify these solutions for them.

Nick Clason (23:35):
Does, does that, uh, dare to share, like, do those websites, do they still exist? Like could we link to them?

Matt Johnson (23:41):
Uh, they should. Yeah, I can. I'll uh, I'll dig 'em up. We just, we revamped the whole website since we did those. So I'll just have to find where we re put those, so.

Nick Clason (23:50):
Okay. Yeah. So I'll give you a link to that. Give you a link to what the summer ebook looked like. Uh, the next thing is, um, blogs. Let's talk about blogs. Blogs seem like, um, old news they've been around forever. So are they still useful piece of content marketing? Are they still worth our time? What, what would you say to that?

Matt Johnson (24:08):
Uh, I'd say blogs are probably the lowest hanging fruit that anyone listens in this podcast could start, you know, um, doing right now. Um, and the reason I say that is cuz they don't need to be long. Uh, if you get a consistent rhythm of blog writing, you're gonna have consistent search. Uh, your SEO's gonna continue to be updated. And also you're gonna have, uh, consistent reason for people to continue to come back to you, which that's the key of a lot we've talked about. We want people to just come back to us and we don't want it to only be on Sunday mornings at church. We want to come on a Wednesday at work when they're on their lunch break and go, Hey, I wanna check out what my church has going on with it. So, um, blogs are honestly one of the easiest things to start implementing right now and the traffic and the potential of a blog is still massive.

Matt Johnson (24:58):
So a great example of this is Michael Hyatt, um, who, uh, if you guys don't know who Michael I Hyatt is, you know, they grow up full. He, uh, he's a designer, full focus planner. He was an SEO or a CEO at a book publishing company. Uh, he's a hugely influential person in the marketing world and he started his entire company based off of blog writing, um, by giving like daily tips, um, like, uh, how to balance your day, uh, how to be a good boss, how to be a leader. Um, and he was doing that while I was a CEO. And then, uh, he turned that into an entirely functional company right now and full focus. So, uh, that is a great example of like what a blog can do for you. Uh, and blogs are just, uh, something that everyone can write, honestly, like it's your voice, it's your personality, that's your opinion on it. So, um, and they don't have to be long. Like you can write a, you know, 300, 500 word blog and that's all you need.

Nick Clason (25:56):
Yeah. Great. So here, like, and Matt correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like most like template website builders are sort of built on like a blog style, uh, idea, like it's built with the idea of like posts. So it's pretty easy for most church websites to create some sort of blog type thing where you just throw quick hitters of like your thoughts.

Matt Johnson (26:19):
Exactly. And you, there's probably not a lot. You need to change. You just gotta look at some formatting stuff. Uh, like I said, it's gonna be a huge win for you. If you can actually start getting your blog going and be consistent, that's the one thing you will say, don't start a blog if you're not gonna be consistent and you're not gonna write it. So if you're gonna commit to a blog, say I'm gonna have a blog up every day. Like every Tuesday at 10:00 AM, make sure it's up every Tuesday at 10:00 AM, cuz that's gonna help also, uh, unlike the algorithm side of things. So

Nick Clason (26:50):
What's a good, what would be a good recommended rhythm? Would you say for someone who's gonna blog? How often, how frequent all that stuff? How long?

Matt Johnson (26:58):
Yeah, so I would start once a week, you know, get your, your toes wet, your fingers warmed up as you're typing for. Um, uh, and I would pick a day that you might see that might be the best day for traffic, for you at your, uh, at your church. So like for us, we have found Thursdays at, you know, 9:00 AM to be the best time to post anything. So, uh, that's when we would post, uh, you know, a new blog or whatever. Um, and then, uh, as you like start building your blog up or if you're like, Hey, this is something that I could definitely add more to start doing two a week or three a week. Um, you know, Michael Hyatt was doing one every day, which that's pretty, that's pretty intense. So I mean, if you have the time to do that and you wanna do that and you have the drive to do that, go for it, but I would just start with one at day right now and then build on there.

Nick Clason (27:46):
All right. Great. So let's talk a little bit then Matt, about podcasts. Um, are, I feel like podcasts similar to blogs have been around forever? Are they still like a useful marketing tool?

Matt Johnson (27:59):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. If people are, wanna find a topic, um, they're gonna, um, traditionally look for podcasts now, especially the younger demographic.

Nick Clason (28:09):
Yeah. What was like, what was the, what was the stat hubs stat came? Hub spot came out with a couple of weeks ago or months ago about, uh, the average, average American or average person listening to podcasts.

Matt Johnson (28:22):
Yeah. So podcast listeners. So those are people that send a podcast, 84% of them listen to eight hours or more podcast a week. You have 78% of Americans are aware of podcasts and almost 60% of people in America listen to podcasts. So, um, a lot of people are, I mean, podcasts are continually to grow. Um, I mean younger people, it's definitely something that they do to pass the time now, especially on commutes and walking and, um, runs and working out and all that kinda stuff. And then, uh, you, you know, older people, old, older generations are starting to, you know, jump on the podcast bandwagon. So

Nick Clason (29:01):
Yeah. So do you think that it's just recording your sermon, throwing it in on a podcast? Is that what you're recommending here?

Matt Johnson (29:09):
Uh, I mean that, that's where you can start, honestly. I mean, that's not gonna give you, you know, the traditional traction of a podcast, uh, just because, you know, you're only gonna get people that wanna listen to your sermon at that point. They're not gonna necessarily be searching for like that topic for help. So, so like creating a parenting podcast or like an interview type podcast where people are like, Hey, I'm kinda looking for this kinda thing, but it is a good place to start and you already have the content.

Nick Clason (29:37):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, crossroads in Cincinnati, uh, they have a like almost entire podcast network. Um, and I was I'll link to it in the show notes, but I was scrolling through it the other day. And so like, their pastor's name is Brian to, so they have a podcast called the aggressive life with Brian to then they have one called freed up it's about money. Then they have one called you can do this and it's a parenting podcast. And then they have one called, um, IKR question mark. It says real conversations with real women. One called I love Cincinnati, one called too long. Didn't read. And that's like a cliff notes version of like the Bible one called man skills, one called spirit stories. Um, so yeah, like they have what, whatever that is like seven, eight, something like that podcast summer, obviously. Right. I love Cincinnati.

Nick Clason (30:32):
That's very like regional to them. And so it's just a podcast about yeah. Cincinnati and showcasing the best things about there. And, um, he, he does interviews with interesting people from Cincinnati and then they got one on like just the Bible, like, Hey, maybe the Bible, isn't something that's a regular rhythm or discipline to your life, but here's a quick hitter of, of different books, different chapters, you know, stuff like that. Um, so I, I I'll link to that in the show notes, but I love their approach to that. Cuz I think like you said, a lot of people are just starting with just the sermon. Um, and obviously crossroads is a big church, so they have a lot of resources to make some of these things happen, but you can begin to start thinking and looking and seeing ways that you can create other topics or other podcasts that might be interesting. And it's honestly, man, yeah. This is like episode what, seven or eight for us like this isn't been that hard. Like it's actually really fun. no. And

Matt Johnson (31:27):
So fun. It's easy and it's yeah.

Nick Clason (31:30):
Yeah. You're just having a conversa conversation. We're just recording a conversation, you know, between you and me. And so if you can get two people that don't sound awkward on a microphone, like which is in a church is probably pretty easy because you get people that stand up talking to microphones all the time. So that that's not that that, you know, far off of a skillset of what they probably already have within their repertoire to do exactly. So. Yeah. Yep. Um, and then out of that, uh, one of the things that, uh, I think I've heard you recommend is transcripting those so that you can get all the words onto a website

Matt Johnson (32:09):
Mm-hmm yep, absolutely. Uh, highly recommend doing transcripts, uh, cause everything we've talked about over the last half hour or so is all, you know, searchable terms. So, and you can do, there's plenty of transcripting services out there that are fairly, very cheap to, you know, that you could just upload your MP3 two and they'll transcribe it for you.

Nick Clason (32:31):
Yeah. I mean basically every time we do this, it's anywhere from 30 to 40 minutes and a AI subscription service through rev.com, um, will basically give me this transcript for anywhere from eight to $10. And so that's not super expensive. You, you put that along with the link to the podcast, whether you're using a hosting service or you're hosting it directly on your own website, um, and boom, there you go. You got all the words from it and you know, sometimes they messed stuff up. Like they spell my last name wrong every time. Yeah. But that's the catch go change it. Solos deal. Well, no, they put a Y in it when I say Clason it's there's no, Y a Y so

Matt Johnson (33:13):
Whatever to call you, it says calling Nate Clauson.

Nick Clason (33:17):
Cause you know how everyone says the word Jason and Mason, right? Like that's, that's how you're supposed to say those words too, obviously. Sorry.

Matt Johnson (33:26):

Nick Clason (33:28):
All right. Uh, pillar pages. What are those? We talked about those a little bit last time. So if you, if you didn't listen to the last episode, go back and listen. We went pretty, pretty nerdy and pretty in depth on those. But for those that weren't here, give a quick, give a quick hitter of what those are and the purpose of them,

Matt Johnson (33:45):
Uh, pillar page is a page specifically designed to help with SEO. Um, so search engine optimizations, and it's a large page also known as a content cluster of lots and lots of copy and information about something that's searchable. So good example of this is that we, uh, we're working on a pillar page right now at our church called, uh, the everything you need to know about Christian Small groups. And we identified those search terms. And now we're gonna just write a bunch of content all about that. So, um, and that's gonna be, you know, a pillar page to help drive traffic to our find your people stuff.

Nick Clason (34:24):
So let's pretend that you are marketing genius. You are sitting here or you're at least marketing interested. You're hearing this. You're like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But you are like multiple steps away from decision making. You are not the senior leader in your church and you go to your senior pastor and you experience some form of opposition. How would you Matt advise that person to enter into said conversation about one of these things?

Matt Johnson (34:58):
Just any of them?

Nick Clason (35:00):
Well, yeah, let let's hit

Matt Johnson (35:02):
Pillar

Nick Clason (35:03):
Pages. Let's hit it from a no from, from all of 'em. All of 'em. Yeah. Let's hit it from a high level. So you're, you're not the, you're not the decision maker, but you want to, how do you go about convincing your senior leadership that content marketing is worth doing?

Matt Johnson (35:19):
Yeah. Uh, I would go to your senior leadership with just a lot of this information we talked about. So, you know, a big way I started pitching a lot of the stuff, you know, at a current church is a lot of the stats that, you know, we're seeing, um, in the marketing world. So, uh, we know how effective content marketing is and how it can actually, you know, nurture our, uh, congregation. I, um, for your church, it could be the blog. It could be the podcast. Um, really depends. So, uh, I would go in with that in mind, go in, um, with change management in mind. So just, you know, go in and, uh, talk about, uh, what you're seeing, what the goals are and why you can do it and how you're gonna be able to do it, uh, is my best advice for all that it is gonna, can be kinda challenging, especially if you have, uh, older church and older, uh, executives on your team to kinda pitch some of this stuff.

Matt Johnson (36:25):
Um, um, especially some of the stuff that, you know, they might not see instant gratification from. So like a podcast you're not gonna see instant numbers from, it's something that you put time, money and effort into. That's gonna take, you know, um, a while to actually build your community up. But once it's built, it's usually pretty solid. And people typically once they're, you know, in the world of a podcast or whatever they can, uh, um, they stick around. So that's just the kinda stuff that you need to come in, ready to answer. So pick something that, you know, you can succeed at that, uh, can give you some fairly quick wins. Um, and then, uh, just be able to talk about that with that change management in mind.

Nick Clason (37:00):
So let's, let's, uh, keep, let's do this super quick, but let's pretend that you, uh, got approval to do one of these things. And in one month, what would be a win? I wanna just go through each of these. I want you to just lay out what you think a win might look like. So what would be a win if in one month you launched an ebook, what is a, a measurable win, something that you can point to your, your boss about like, Hey, look at this, this is what we saw. This was a win because blank happened.

Matt Johnson (37:31):
How many new people downloaded your ebook

Nick Clason (37:34):
And

Matt Johnson (37:34):
Depending on the size of your church, that number is gonna vary.

Nick Clason (37:37):
Sure, sure. Sure. What about white page? Same thing.

Matt Johnson (37:41):
Uh, white page. Yeah. White papers, probably pages. I would say the same thing is, uh, probably how many new people actually downloaded it.

Nick Clason (37:49):
Okay. How about a blog,

Matt Johnson (37:52):
A blog? I would just say how many, uh, people have read your blogs so you can actually get those stats, you know, you don't want people skimming it, um, not, or just bouncing away from it. So like actually having that bounce rate low and that read rate high on it.

Nick Clason (38:06):
OK. Podcast,

Matt Johnson (38:09):
Uh, podcast, it shows, uh, how many people are listening to it and these don't need to be new people. Like I said, a podcast is really gonna start with your and then grow

Nick Clason (38:18):
And then pillar page,

Matt Johnson (38:21):
Uh, pillar page is going just be how many people clicked on the page that's SEO related. So the bounce rate could be really high, but if you get someone stuck on for also biggest of that in mind.

Nick Clason (38:35):
Yeah. Okay, great. Um, alright. So you're a small church. You don't have anything of any one of these things and we just hired you to be our marketing consultant. What would be your number one project that you'd say, Hey, do this to get started,

Matt Johnson (38:53):
Look at this, the stats and who your congregation is and who your target is. But, um, most 90% of the time, I would say blog or podcast, just because it doesn't take a lot of extra effort on your end, um, podcast. You're gonna have to do a little bit editing, of course. Um, and the blog, you know, you're gonna have to set that up and, but the time commitment's a little bit less than some of these other things. And ebook is a quick way to get, you know, huge, uh, like to not get huge numbers, but to start seeing some of the new numbers come in a white paper, you'll have better, stronger leads. And then, uh, you know, a pillar page is a massive project. I wanna reiterate that there're a lot of work, so, um, but they won't give you the most traffic to your website.

Nick Clason (39:33):
Well, and I think like, if you, if we're thinking about this from like an in person ministry strategy, like everything you do for in person requires a lot of work. Like I'll just say, as a youth pastor, I have to build an entire schedule for an entire semester. I have to recruit in, uh, secure several different like locations, host homes, small group leaders, get them screened, um, create like a theme for every week and teaching and content and all these different things. Like there's a lot of work to be done. And so mm-hmm, um, like just because what we're talking about here in, in like digital form is a lot of work. It doesn't mean it's, it's not worth it, or you should only take the easy way out. It just means that you also have to set up all the infrastructure and framework to make it work too. And once you do, mm-hmm, , it's gonna be worth your while, but you have to have someone who cares about it and keep it going. Just like you have someone who cares about your student ministry, just like you have someone who cares about your women's ministry, keeping those things up and running and keeping them organized and brought together and the framework built and all the same types of things that we're talking about here. Like, it is a lot of work, but it's also worth it.

Matt Johnson (40:47):
Mm-hmm exactly. Yep.

Nick Clason (40:49):
So, so last thing, Matt speaking around this idea of organization, like all these things are a great idea, but how like, like, especially like eBooks white pages, like you're trying to capture emails. And so what is the best way to get your, get the word out there with these things? Um, is there like, cuz you, you know, you wanna do some sort of like email marketing type of thing and your church may have that may not mm-hmm but so you're gonna want to grab people's names, grab people's emails. Um, you're gonna need websites. Like what is the best distribution method? Is it advertising E like talk through it, just like that entire process from, um, getting it out there on Google, getting it, getting it out there on Facebook for ads, getting people to click on your thing, getting people to put their name in, um, where's all that stuff go, how's it how's doing. How do you keep it, keep all these things, uh, all these parts of the machine moving and working together. What's the best way to do that.

Matt Johnson (41:50):
Yeah. We could do a whole episode about advertising, probably a couple episodes, honestly, cause it's such a beast. Um, and distribution in general, but I would say like to get you started, I'm just gonna give you a soft answer since we've already given you so much info in this one is social media. So just do what organically on social, figure out what your delivery method is. So if you wanna, you know, do MailChimp, I don't know what your church has in place right now. So if it's a that you have, or, um, maybe you're doing a hub or you have rock RMS, whatever that you're capturing people already. So you have some way that you're capturing emails already. There's probably a form option that connects to that, that you can deliver PDFs for. Um, I would say probably nine times outta 10. That's probably true. So, um,

Nick Clason (42:42):
Well in most of those, most of those, whether, yeah, most of those, whether you pay for them or not, um, you know, cuz there might be churches here that don't, that don't have those things built yet, you know? So you gotta, you gotta land something as a distribution. So figure that out. There are some free ones, but it they're all gonna be limited until you start paying for 'em. And so if you're not already paying for one, you can go find a free one, but it, it may take some time to find one that works for free because certain features like automatic, like opt-ins with automatic email triggers, like that often costs a little bit of money, you know? So you just have to be yeah. Kinda aware going into that.

Matt Johnson (43:23):
Yep. Oh absolutely. And, and that's, and then just post that on social to start out and get people to share that organically. Um, especially if you, like, I don't have any money for advertising. Don't worry about advertising right now. So start with some organic, um, ways to do that and build up your social presence, which will help you when you get to the advertising stage and you might have budget.

Nick Clason (43:47):
Hmm. Yeah. And you can, I mean, think about it. You you're in an organization, no matter like, even if you're under a hundred people like that, you have uh, 50, 75, whatever raving fans about you. So ask for their help to get the word out because how many times Matt do you and I like make a decision based off of a word of mouth recommendation, more than Yelp mm-hmm more than the stars on Google. Like if you tell me about a good restaurant, like I'm gonna trust you way more than a restaurant with 505 star reviews. Like I just am. Yep. Cause it that's just, that's just how our brains work for one reason or another. Like we don't all the other people that we don't know don't matter as much to us. Um, but, but you tell me about a good restaurant. I'm like, yeah, I'll try it, you know?

Matt Johnson (44:34):
Yep, exactly. Yeah. So keep that in mind.

Nick Clason (44:37):
Yep. For sure. All right. Any listen, tons of stuff here. Um, we'll try to link all the different examples that we put in there, uh, in the show notes so that you can see, cuz I don't know about you, but I'm visual. So we're talking about eBooks. I wanna show you an example. We're talking about white pages. I wanna show you an example. Um, but any, any other like last parting thoughts around this stuff, Matt, that you have before we, before we sign off?

Matt Johnson (45:02):
Um, no. I mean pick one of these and go, try to, you know, start brainstorming some ideas to get it done. So

Nick Clason (45:10):
Love it. All right guys. Good luck. Let us know how it's going. We'd love to hear from you@hybridministryontwitterhybridministry.xyz is the website and uh, we'd love for you to subscribe to this podcast. Give it a rating, give it a review. And if you found this helpful man, please share it with a friend. Uh, same thing we just said, let people know you found this helpful. So until next time we'll talk to you later. Bye guys.

Episode 006: Findings from Barnas Future of Hybrid Church ebook

Nick Clason — Thu, 25 Aug 2022 04:00:00 -0500

In today's episode, Nick and Matt chat through Barna's Hybrid Ministry ebook, they discuss the ins and outs of pillar pages, and how that could be used for your church to reach Millennials and Gen Z attenders, as well as inspect some of the fascinating church attendance trends founds in the Barna Study!

SHOW NOTES
BARNA E-BOOK BEING REFERENCED
https://shop.barna.com/products/6-questions-about-the-future-of-the-hybrid-church-experience

PILLAR PAGE EXAMPLE
https://www.typeform.com/blog/guides/brand-awareness/

CROSSROADS ONLINE PLATFORM
https://www.crossroads.net/watch/

//BARNA EBOOK FINDINGS
51% of All US adults did not watch an online church service during COVID
18% of Practicing Christians did not

67% of churched adults now have an online option when their church didn’t have one before

90% primarily engaged with the same church they were committed to before COVID

78% of church dropouts are waiting until services go back to normal before they return

Churched Adults (36%) and Home with kids under 18 (41%) struggle to focus during online church

//DO YOU USE THE INTERNET FOR FAITH PURPOSES?
Practicing Christians - 66%
Churched Adults - 56%
Dropouts - 36%
Churched Gen Z - 67%
Churched Millennials 64%
Churched Gen X 58%
Churched Boomers 42%

//AFTER COVID WILL CHURCH GATHERINGS FIT YOUR LIFE?
Churched Gen Z
37% say both
13% say primarily digital
41% say physical
40% say both
13% say primarily digital
42% say primarily physical

TIMECODES
00:00-1:43 - Intro
01:43-02:57 - Findings from Barna Study on Hybrid
02:57-07:30 - 51% of US adults didnt' watch service online during COVID
07:30-12:36 - 67% of churched adults now have an online option
12:36-21:16 - How to set up a pillar page
21:16-23:08 - People stayed committed to their church during COVID
23:08-24:38 - 78% of dropouts are waiting until it's normal to return to church
24:38-28:08 - It's hard to remain focued while watching online
28:08-30:35 - Using the internet for Faith Purposes
30:35-32:46 - Post COVID church attendance survey data
32:46-34:35- Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Matt Johnson (00:01):
For young, I wanna be for forever young.

Matt Johnson (00:08):
Hey

Nick Clason (00:11):
Well, good morning. And hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason alongside my great friend cohort. Compadre, Matt Johnson. How you doing this morning, Matt?

Matt Johnson (00:27):
Doing great, man. I'm a little tired, you know, have a newborn in another room. So that's been, uh, exciting, but you know, I'm, uh, worn out but you know, it's beautiful and it's a great thing. So

Nick Clason (00:40):
You're worn out. So let's talk about digital ministry to just reinvigorate you.

Matt Johnson (00:47):
I'm in

Nick Clason (00:48):
Let's, uh, real quick, like what are like the, like, what's the number one, most surprising thing about a newborn for you?

Matt Johnson (00:56):
Oh man. You know, the most surprising thing is how fulfilled I am. Um, you know, I, the second I've met her, I cried and you know, there's been multiple times I've been holding her and I just start crying. I'm like, this is really weird. Never thought fatherhood would hit me this way. And I think it just goes, you know, I lost my dad a few years ago. So like just layers of like who I am to this little thing that I'm holding, you know, that doesn't even have any idea what's going on in the world.

Nick Clason (01:23):
yeah. Yeah. That's that's awesome, man. Well, we're super happy for you, but obviously everybody wanted you back because, uh, you know, they missed, they, they missed you. Laughs. And they had just listened to me and that was boring so well, yeah. That's amazing, dude. So super happy for you. Um, today, uh, you know, Barna recently came out with a, an ebook, um, on the, I don't remember the exact title of it, but we'll link it in the show notes, but the findings in this new world of hybrid ministry and I dude, I promise you, right. We had this name before we knew about their ebook.

Matt Johnson (02:06):
So yes,

Nick Clason (02:07):
, we're technically not stealing from them, but they did release before us because, uh, we didn't have our crap together enough to get this thing up and off the ground.

Matt Johnson (02:16):

Nick Clason (02:17):
So , so it looks like we're stealing from them, but we promise we're not. So I was reading through that, uh, just the other day and there were just some statistics that kinda, um, I found interesting and I just wanted to share them and then us just kind of go back and forth and talk through 'em a little bit. So, um, you know, you and I were obviously promoting this idea of digital and physical ministry calling it hybrid. Uh, and so there are a couple of things that I found interesting that feel like maybe they're not, um, leaning towards hybrid or digital ministry being a good strategy. The first one is this 51% of all us adults did not watch an online church service during COVID. Um, and 18% of practicing Christians did not. So COVID hit a practicing Christian, almost 20% of them never even tuned into an online service. So those statistics right there, Matt, is there anything concerning with that? Like as you and I are like pushing for this idea of hybrid ministry, are, are we like, well, yeah, but people don't even really want it. That's, that's kind of how I would read that statistic.

Matt Johnson (03:31):
Yeah. I, uh, personally I'm not concerned mostly just cuz of the demographic and the ages that this did. I mean, it's not just, you know, millennials that they're pulling out in this stat, it's all adults. So you're gonna have boomers, gen X all in there too. And we know historically that they don't want to really tune in online. Um, I will say, I mean, if only 20, if 20% of practicing Christians did not tune in, I mean that means 80% did tune in at some point, which I mean that excites me. Um, cuz that means majority of people are trying to tune in. Um, and I also do, uh, if all us adults and 51% did not attend a church service of like everyone in the us, I, I mean might be the optimist I me, but that, that tells me 49% of people at least, you know, checked out a service at some point. So that's exciting. Uh, yeah. Which, you know, that's kind of correlates with the numbers that we have seen and you know, practicing religion anyway. So, um, I

Nick Clason (04:31):
Mean you can paint them as negative. Right. But there's also the other side too, which is there, there is positivity in it such depends, I guess how you wanna look at it.

Matt Johnson (04:40):
Yeah. And I would just say like, don't get discouraged just cuz 20, you know, about 20% of practicing Christians did not because I would say, you know, that's probably the 20% of people that regardless never will.

Nick Clason (04:52):
Yeah. Well and one of the, I mean, gosh, one of the things we've noticed in our church is that, um, COVID hit and we lost contact with just a lot of people. And so mm-hmm, , that's probably a nationwide phenomenon as well. Um, especially depending on the size of church, you know, you and I obviously work at a pretty large church and so it's, it's harder for us to have contact with every single one, uh, of the people, you know, that,

Matt Johnson (05:16):
That least, yeah. Something else that I would ask, seeing the number start to cut you off. Nick is no,

Nick Clason (05:21):
You're good.

Matt Johnson (05:22):
Um, how were, were these churches that these 20%, 18% did not get practice online? Is that because they weren't communicated well to, um, were the, were things not implemented quick enough for them? So, you know, they were like, you know, they get out their habit habit of I'm gonna go attend church, which I think that could definitely be part of that factor too. I mean, I think in my grandpa's church who, you know, runs a small Methodist church of 20 people and they try to do online and it was him in his kitchen, but you know, his congregation is primarily 60 to 80 years old, so they're not gonna really go on Facebook to watch.

Nick Clason (05:58):
So yeah. I also think that, um, what you and I are proposing and talking about in the life of this podcast is not an online church service. No like that it be an element to it and it could be an element to it. But I think we're trying to actually create a more dynamic and robust, um, framework for hybrid ministry. Exactly. Because I do exactly that people do like the, the X factor of the church is the fact that we gather together and we create real authentic community. Like, yeah, that's what sets us apart. We're not just a content machine. And so the con the converse of that is that if the church is just a content machine, like if we're not doing it well, or, um, like if we feel like we should have to compete with the world, we may lose out on that, unless we have something that's uniquely different and we do, and that's Jesus and that's community, but so how do we take those things that uniquely set us apart as the church and create something hybrid in that?

Nick Clason (07:08):
And so while some of these stats may look, you know, cryptic or whatever, for what we're proposing, I would argue that we're saying, yeah, stream your service, but also, like don't only stream your service and call that your digital presence. There's so much more to a digital presence, just go back and exactly all the things we've, we've talked about in the week, the episodes before, so, okay. Yeah. So then, uh, 67%, um, of church adults now have an online option and when their church didn't have one before. So if anything, what we've seen now is that COVID has ushered the church, you know, into this new, this new phenomenon. I think in my dad's church, not the one he's at now, but the one that he was at when COVID was going on. And, uh, they, they did have a live stream, but dude, like I think that their live stream was someone setting their iPhone up in the balcony.

Nick Clason (08:06):
And like, that was how they live stream, you know, and they're not super produced even now, but they did, like, they did grab a couple of, you know, elements to, to boost their live stream. And so they now do like lower thirds instead of just like just putting the phone up and hoping that people can see the screen and, um, like stuff like that, you know, to make themselves a little bit more, uh, online savvy. And so I think a lot of churches went through some sort of online iteration. And so now that you have the hardware and the software, and maybe even some of the soft skills, like the know how and how to set this thing up, it now gives the ma you know, the overwhelming majority of churched adults, an online option that they didn't have before. And so yes, stream your service, but also what are different ways, Matt, that you could even see them packaging that, um, that content, that audio, that video to create hybrid, you know, elements throughout their week.

Matt Johnson (09:08):
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different ways you could, um, package it, but what are the best ways right now I'd say is to just get some of that short form content out of that live message. Um, we've talked a lot about that, especially if you're trying to hit the millennial gen Z. Um, there actually was just another study that came out that said the best way to reach that. Um, millennials in general is video that's under 60 seconds long. So, um, if you could figure out a good way to like package, I don't know, 62nd clip with a, um, let's say a 200 word blog or 200 word write up about it. And you could package that as a, Hey, our weekly recap or whatever. Oh yeah. I don't know if you watch baseball at all. Um, but, uh, one of my favorite things about baseball right now is like, if you tune into a game late, especially on specifically on YouTube TV, it gives you a six inning recap of, or like whatever inning you're coming in of all the plays you've missed, which I, uh, that's something I personally love, cuz I can catch up on my baseball games really quickly.

Matt Johnson (10:09):
But so do that for your sermon. Like do a, Hey here's our sermon recap for the week you give it in content short form. Um, and let me know what's going on with, uh, whatever you got going on in, at your church that week. Uh, that's the probably gonna be the best way to reach millennial and gen Z right now.

Nick Clason (10:27):
And do you think Matt that like obviously, well, first of all, baseball's boring. If you can catch up on a game in 60 seconds, that's my take on it, but uh, would you suggest that the best way to do that would be through, um, like maybe TikTok or Instagram, but are you saying like throw that on like a mobile friendly, um, website or like a page on your website? That's like maybe a blog page that's dynamic, that's moving, that's being updated. Um, and then that, is that the way to do it, send it out via email, like what would be your distribution? Like that's a great concept. I love that. I don't even know if there's churches really doing that in the iteration that you're explaining, but how would you, uh, suggest a church if you know, we hired you as our marketing manager, how would you suggest a church set that up technically on the backside? Does that make sense?

Matt Johnson (11:16):
Yeah. No, all of the above are great options. Um, the big thing, so here, well, let's go through all the avenues. So Instagram TikTok, you're gonna have broader reach. So if that's what you're trying to get, go for that email, you're gonna have your best reach. So, uh, Seth goin always talks about how your email list is like your gold. Um, if you get really good people on your email list and they're engaged, like that's your cream of your crop, they're gonna be hot no matter what. So, um, that's a great way to distribute, distribute it, but we also know it can be a challenge to get emails. So, um, if that's not, you know, uh, something that you have built, you don't have a CRM or anything built on the back end or a data management system. I would, okay. Let's all right. What's next website, which this could easily be a pillar page or a cluster topic of like, Hey, you're serving recaps and all that SEO is gonna drive your website. The video content is gonna weigh higher on Google and you can just continue adding stuff to that page of like here's our sermon recap page. And that page will just be built out more and more. And if you can just imagine this page, that scrolls forever, and you have a nice little table of content at the top that you can like jump around and stuff. That's gonna weigh very high on SEO. So, um, so which we are actually seeing currently with Google,

Nick Clason (12:36):
So let's get super nerdy on a pillar page. So I know what that is. Cuz you told me what it is, but I didn't know what it was till you told me what it was a couple of months ago. So first of all, what is a pillar page?

Matt Johnson (12:47):
So a pillar page is just a fancy term of like, okay, you've pick a topic. So let's, let's uh, let's talk about small groups. Small groups is always a great, uh, no let's do youth ministry since you're a youth leader. You knows. There we go. Let's now we're talking the finals, let's go into the world that we know. Yeah. so let's say we created a pillar page. That was everything you need to know about, uh, youth ministry in 2022. Um, so we titled that page specifically to be some of those search terms that you're gonna have. And then that pillar page should just be built out of like the who, what, when, where, why, how so, but blogs, curated content. And when I talk about curated content, I think that confuses a lot of people cuz they think, oh, we're just gonna, um, take content that we have or whatever, and just re put it on there.

Matt Johnson (13:31):
You can do that. But when I'm seeing curated content, I'm talking about other people's content and doing back links for them too. Mm-hmm um, that helps you weigh higher on SEO. Um, and also on this page should be, uh, you know, copy about like, okay, this is everything you need to know about youth ministry. And then on there you could have your video tutorials, you could have, um, white pages ebook. So it's everything that you're gonna release about a topic on one page. So the Google term of it is a content cluster, which it's like a cluster of all the content you have. The pillar page is what the marketing term is that you're gonna hear a lot for it. Um, so if you created, uh, let's say life, church recap page, and on that recap page, it's just everything that life church has done, you know, over the last year. And it's a recap of all their sermons. It's a play by play or whatever. You're gonna weigh higher on SEO when people are searching for like, okay, I'm looking for, how do I deal with anxiety? And if you had a sermon about anxiety, that's gonna weigh higher on that page for you.

Nick Clason (14:40):
That's great, man. So here's my question then as someone who's a novice, as it comes to like internet, uh, website development and all that stuff, obviously if I pay for developer, I'm gonna gonna get this done. Right. But let's pretend I don't have the money to do that. Or I might just, you know, waiting into this now for the very first time, uh, how, like, can you set up a pillar page? Like, is there like a pillar page for dummies? Is there like a couple of things that they can do through like a basic square space, Wix or WordPress site that will get them at least on the right path? Cuz maybe, you know, someone's listening to this and they're not the senior leader. They don't have the authorization to spend the money, but they believe in it. And so they want to take it on as a pet project, but they need to prove to their upper level leadership or their senior pastor that this is valuable. Can you give someone in that boat, any sort of like tips on how to get some of that stuff up and rolling?

Matt Johnson (15:31):
Yeah, definitely. You can a hundred percent create a pillar page through, you know, WICS or Squarespace or something. Um, you're just gonna be limited by, uh, the fact that you're in a template, which is okay. So I want to be very clear about that. Like that is okay. Um, it's just gonna be laid out how Squarespace really wants it laid out or Wix wants it laid out. Um,

Nick Clason (15:50):
As opposed to the custom, like I want it, I want this feature, like you can't ne maybe necessarily accommodate that. You're just stuck in the template.

Matt Johnson (15:59):
Yeah, exactly. So if you're like, Hey, I don't like how this jumps to there. You're not gonna really be able to finesse around that, but that's okay if you're just getting started through pillar page, cuz really a pillar page is meant to just be a really long content cluster. So just start adding everything you have on there and just lay it out in a logical sense. So don't uh, just throw stuff willy-nilly on it. Like don't go from like what this is about to, this is how you do it then to the why, like you need to start with like, you know, why and the what, and then go to the how, like, just like a story you don't just go straight to the climax of it

Nick Clason (16:38):
And, and let, let's throw like a couple pillar page examples, you know, in the show notes so that people can go check those out. Yeah,

Matt Johnson (16:44):
Absolutely.

Nick Clason (16:45):
See some of them what we're talking about. Yeah. But can you think of off top of your head or do we need to stop recording and then you, you comb your brain for some good pillar page

Matt Johnson (16:54):
Exams? No, there's a, there's a great pillar page that Typeform has, um, that I would love to, uh, that we can add into, um, the show notes and really the pillar page is all about uh, um, gosh, I can't remember. Give one second think

Nick Clason (17:14):
this is, uh,

Matt Johnson (17:15):
Brand awareness that thought it's about yeah, it's it's about brand awareness. Um, they did a whole pillar page about how you can build brand awareness, uh, Typeform data. And that's just been, uh, perfectly laid out. Actually I will even put it in our notes here. So you have it, love it. Um, and you can take a look at it, but this is really what Hillary pages should look like gives you how much, uh, time it would read. Uh, there's usually a table of content at the top and then you can jump through and find what you wanna read about. So, um,

Nick Clason (17:49):
I will link to that. You guys can see it. Yeah.

Matt Johnson (17:51):
Pick it out. And it's a perfect example of a pillar page and I need, I wanna reiterate pillar pages are big. So this pillar page is a 44 minute read and it's meant to build SEO. Like that's what it's meant for. So when I, uh, we were building a pillar page at a church now and you guys came to me about it and I was talking through with like the kids director and stuff. I was like, I need, let's

Nick Clason (18:10):
Be clear. You came up with the idea first. And then I said, we should do this and

Matt Johnson (18:15):
Then got

Nick Clason (18:15):
The kids director on board.

Matt Johnson (18:17):
So yes. Yeah. And I was sitting down with her and she's like, is that enough content? I was like, no, I need about 30,000 words. and I could see her go what? And I was like, okay, maybe not 30,000, but I need about 3000 words. Like I would need a lot of con copy for a pillar page to work. So it's something you constantly build. It's not just something that day one, you have 200 words and it's a blog post. Like a pillar page is not bigger than a blog post.

Nick Clason (18:42):
Does it take on like, like, okay, cuz I guess the way I'm looking at it, let's pretend it's like Instagram. So Instagram, if you're scrolling, it'll keep loading be beneath you and it'll just scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll until like, never like you can probably never really find the bottom of Instagram. Yep. However, like Google, right? Like it's, it's got a billion options, but at when you get to the bottom of your page, it'll be like go to page two. Yeah. Can it go either of those directions or is there one way that is better than the other

Matt Johnson (19:14):
Scroll scroll? Does that make sense? Scroll. Yeah, I would do scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. Okay. And then if you wanna link to other stuff outside of it, that's totally fine. So like, Hey, go check out this blog. That's fine. And what that gives you is back links and you want back links and we back links. You have the higher websites weighted. It's all this weird stuff on the back. End of Google.

Nick Clason (19:34):
Yeah. Okay. Great. Love it. No, that's listen, dude. That's the type of stuff that I'm in idiot about, but uh, I know it's good. So I'm trying to learn.

Matt Johnson (19:41):
Yeah, no I'm here.

Nick Clason (19:43):
So yeah, pillar pages. Um, we took a little detour there, but that's, we're gonna, that's what this is episode is about. Like how do you build it? What are they, how are they advantageous? And so we can do with our 67% church adults who now have an online option, we can take some of that and use that to add to the pillar page mm-hmm . And so could you make it where it's like one week it's, uh, 62nd sermon recap with like the downloadable notes or something. And instead of them being downloadable, you're saying just type all those words into there,

Matt Johnson (20:13):
So that a hundred percent

Nick Clason (20:14):
It can be found. And then could you add to it next week, week two of the love sermon series and the 62nd recap clip and uh, the sermon notes or something like that.

Matt Johnson (20:24):
Exactly. Yeah. And you would be shocked on, I, I guarantee if someone, you little churches go out there and do that, you'll be weighed high on Google. Um, like do a, how to love, how to be loving as a Christian series. Um, cuz most places are not doing this most churches aren't doing this. And then secondly, uh, if they have done this it's so long ago that like, like you'll start to outweigh Google cuz you were creating new content for it.

Nick Clason (20:51):
So, uh, would you recommend like someone typing up a sermon recap or would you recommend just copy and pasting the pastor's manuscript notes?

Matt Johnson (21:01):
Uh, both. So the best solution would be to do a recap, but if you don't have time to do a recap, then just do the sermon notes right now. Like okay. Do the recap as like that's all right. I'm gonna make this better than do the recap.

Nick Clason (21:16):
Gotcha. Great. All right. So a couple other of stats I wanted to look into from the barn of study, 90% of people primarily engaged with the same church that they were committed to before. COVID and I think that that's a really, uh, hopefully a really helpful stat for us as pastors, because we feel like maybe this idea of all of us going online is they're gonna find something better and then they're gonna switch. Yeah. And they're not gonna wanna go to our church anymore. And our church isn't as good as elevation. They have verdict and they have band that makes music that's on Spotify. But 90% of, of churchgoers, primarily engaged with the same church, which communicates to me that most Christians are comm or are connected or committed right to their local body. They're not, they're not looking for something else. They, they have what they want. They have the community that they're, they're looking for. And so as a church, you putting your content out there, you may be, you know, so I've heard people say like, I don't wanna steal other people from other churches. Like that's that's that wouldn't be the goal. Right? The goal is to help nurture and disciple the people that are already going to your church.

Matt Johnson (22:30):
Exactly. Your online church should not be like, oh, I'm gonna steal someone. Else's congregation like this isn't some nefarious thing we're doing. It should be, Hey, we're here to nurture our 90% of people that are still engaged with our church, which that tells me, like you were just saying, they bought into your community that you built there. So yeah. Nurture them. give them stuff that makes them keep wanting to come back period.

Nick Clason (22:57):
Yeah. Well, not even keep wanting to come back, but like learn during the week.

Matt Johnson (23:01):
Exactly. Yeah. That's what I mean by that.

Nick Clason (23:04):
Yeah. Yeah. Not just, not just come to our church on Sunday. Yeah.

Nick Clason (23:08):
Uh, 78% of church dropouts are saying that they're waiting until services go back to normal before they return. I think that would be a lot of pastor's arguments of, well, see, see, we gotta go back to in person, we gotta go back to in person. And I don't, I don't think any of us are arguing that we shouldn't be back in person. Yeah. Uh, but I that's, I, I would be curious about that percentage of that stat. Hum. Those people are using that as an excuse as their church, uh, attendance patterns and disciplines have just completely faded away. Um, and they're just saying, oh yeah, I'm just waiting for it to go back to normal. Realizing that COVID has never really ended being normal. Like we're just still in this weird like world with it. And there is, I don't know if normal will ever come back the way it was. Cuz it's been two and a half freaking years.

Matt Johnson (23:56):
yeah, no, this is the new normal. And I would just like you were saying, I, my guess is that's probably us excuse for most people now. Um, mm-hmm they got out of the habit, which you know, we've we saw that in our own numbers and that's okay. Like go find the next seeds to sell.

Nick Clason (24:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. And again, we're not proposing like, well yeah, you should stream your service. Like if you can, you should. But we're also saying that there's this there's more to just hybrid. It's not just take your Sunday morning experience and post it on Facebook live. Yeah. There we're, we're trying to make this much more dynamic than

Matt Johnson (24:33):
That. Exactly.

Nick Clason (24:35):
All right. A couple other quick, quick hitters here. Um, but one thing I found really interesting was 36% of church adults, um, that were at home and people with kids under the age of 18, which is like 41% say that they struggle to focus during online church. And again, I think that's another potentially like negative stat towards, towards digital. So what would you say if someone's like? Yeah, I mean I, online church is great and all, but like I got young kids, like I, I can't, it's hard to pay attention the whole time or it's hard to keep them, you know, from being too rowdy or whatever during church.

Matt Johnson (25:11):
Yeah. No, the data tells us that if you're just streaming your exact service online, you're gonna have

Nick Clason (25:18):
It's an hour and 15 minute

Matt Johnson (25:20):
Service. Yeah. You're gonna have more drop off. Um, just cuz that attention span on an hour and 15 minutes on anything screen related, that's not an action movie drops off. So, um, yeah, if they, they probably will just tune into the sermon and that's okay. Or some just tune into the worship. That's my mom, she loves the worship and then she likes listening to the sermon, um, when she's driving to work the next day, which is, yeah, that's an okay option too, but you're giving them the avenue. So I get that. You're gonna struggle to focus during online. Um, that's gonna happen, especially if you have kids, uh, as you know, and I'm learning so

Nick Clason (25:58):
Well, I'll tell you what, what we would do during COVID is we would watch like older people church upstairs, and then we would send our kids to the basement to watch, uh, like their kid service. Well, their kid service was over in like 12 minutes

Matt Johnson (26:13):

Nick Clason (26:14):
And so they come up at the end of worship. Yeah. And we're like, well, well, Hey, like go, Hey, let's watch, let's watch last week's again. And we, it was really hard, man. It was really hard. So it was hard to, it was hard to simulate church. Yep. Um, because it wasn't, I don't think it's meant to be that per se. No it's. And so I would, I would, as a, as a dad of kids under the age of five, I would agree with that stat wholeheartedly. Yep. Honestly, Easter 20, 20 Amanda and I watched church at like 10:30 PM when the kids are in bed.

Matt Johnson (26:49):
Yeah.

Nick Clason (26:49):
Like, because we are like, that's when we can in this, when we're unencumbered by them. Yeah. You know,

Matt Johnson (26:54):
So, and I think what we're landing on is like, it's okay to have these different avenues to consume the media. And also if you're like, Hey, I wanna, I wanna make our church service more, uh, more engaging for these people. Like then go solve that problem. Like go more power to you. Yeah,

Nick Clason (27:15):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But to just overlay what you're doing in person on top of online, like that's, I don't know. I mean, dare I say it's a little lazy. Yeah. Like, and, and if you don't have the manpower for it, I get it. So we're not proposing that you reinvent the wheel, like crossroads in Cincinnati has a completely like custom hybrid online experience. Yep. And that's amazing. Right. I'll link I'll link theirs in the show notes too. I got somebody thinks to link in the show notes, but um, like the like yeah. So that's amazing, but they have the main power to do it. And you're probably again sitting here thinking like I barely have the main power to like do all the things I need to do. Um, and so we're not proposing that we're saying think, think about this as a side of the box, offer church streaming adjacent options. Not just only church streaming options. Exactly.

Nick Clason (28:06):
So, yeah. All right. A couple other real quick things. Um, this was interesting to me, I'll throw all these stats and stuff in the show notes, but so do you use the internet for faith purposes? So I'm just gonna read 'em and we'll kind of digest it. Practicing Christians set 66% of practicing. Christians said that they use the internet for faith purposes. 56% of church adults said that they use the internet for faith purposes. 36% of dropouts say that they use the internet for faith purposes, church, gen Z 67%, church millennials, 64% church, gen X, 58% church boomers, 42%. So I think a couple things that are interesting, obviously when you start with gen Z, it's the highest and it drops down as it gets to boomers. But one thing I notice is that even the gen Xers and the boomers still say almost 50% say that they use the internet for faith purposes. Mm-hmm . So if the argument is my church is old and this isn't for them, I, that categorically is untrue.

Matt Johnson (29:08):
Yep. Yeah, no, absolutely. And the only way to get younger is if you do it, so stats. I mean, that's what the stats are saying too. So if you're like, Hey, we wanna get younger, but we don't wanna, you know, kill our older, uh, congregation. Like they're gonna, they're all gonna be okay with it.

Nick Clason (29:29):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, a, a church boomer will read a recap email. Like they, they respond email. My grandma reads email. In fact, my grandma couldn't connect to the internet the other day and was convinced that someone was trying to hack her bank account. And so I had to, I had to turn her wifi off and turn it back on and get her connected. And she thought that I am the number one, it director in the world.

Matt Johnson (29:55):
my grandpa, my grandpa, all the D coffee. TV's not working. Can you fix me? Like, did you unplug it? You're genius.

Nick Clason (30:07):
Yeah, but they'll read it. They'll read the emails, man. She, and dude, I was at my grandma's and she's like, can you help me unsubscribe from some emails? And I'm like, sure. So I'm like getting her set up with an UNS subscription service. And I was like, how about JC Penn? She's like, no, I like that one. . How about, how about your green bay Packers newsletter. Now I need to know what's going on. Withs green bay. Packer's newsletter. . How about this now? I, I need that gram. You don't actually wanna be in subscribe

Matt Johnson (30:30):
For anything Nope. Oh, that's fine.

Nick Clason (30:34):
All right. A couple another one that was interesting after C will church gatherings fit your life church, gen Z 37% said that both digital and physical would fit their lifestyle. 13% say that primary digital would fit their lifestyle. And 41% say physical will fit their lifestyle. So this is church gen Z. So I think one thing that stood out to me about this statistic, cuz that only 13% said that primarily primarily digital would be, uh, their preference for, uh, attending church post COVID mm-hmm . And so right. We continue to say gen Z, gen Z. And we, we are kind of pegging a lot of this on them and them as the future, but they still want in person, they're not looking for only digital. Exactly. We're looking for hybrid, which is what we're trying to find that, that sticky in between, between the two things.

Nick Clason (31:29):
Exactly. So, and same with millennials. Millennials are, uh, I think slightly higher, uh, 40% say that both online in person, 13% say primarily digital, which is the same as gen Z and then 42% say primarily physical. So they're right on the same track there as, as gen Zers. But they're saying that, um, basically the both that's hybrid man. Yep. Like that's what we're trying to say. Yep. They wanna come in person, but they also want to have access to it when they can't make it or for whatever reason, they're not able to be at church. They want to consume something online. Yep. So, so that's, that's it any other like kind of lasting thoughts that you had just through some of these statistics, like we'll, we'll link to the Barna, uh, ebook and so you can grab a copy of it yourself, but there are, uh, there's just a, there's a lot of really good and really interesting stuff in there. So any other thing that you are like, did you miss this? You should have highlighted this or just, or parting thoughts based on some of this data?

Matt Johnson (32:30):
No, I, I mean my biggest parting thought is like the, the data staying that hybrid is an avenue that we need to be exploring. So continue, um, exploring this avenue , I mean, don't, don't get discouraged, the data supports it.

Nick Clason (32:45):
Yeah. And get, and, and, you know, getting into hybrid, um, and getting into some of those digital platforms. Like it can be, it can be laborious and it can be cumbersome and setting up your account and then setting up your group and then setting up your payments, like all that stuff. Like, and it can get confusing because all those companies are trying to sell you things. Yeah. And they're all the best company and that's at least what they're telling you. And so you gotta, you gotta kind of slug slug through some of those things, like setting up email marketing, you know, uh, things or setting up, you know, CHMS things or just, it it's worth it, you know, but it can get, it can feel overwhelming at times. Yep. So stick with it. It's worth it. Find something that works. There's a lot of, um, free or light versions out there.

Nick Clason (33:35):
And probably for most of us that that will suffice at least for a while. Yeah. Until it gets to a spot where it needs to be, you know, super, super, uh, hefty as far as the payment is so sweet. Hey, uh, that's it for us on episode five? Um, maybe six. I actually can't really remember because, um, I think this was supposed to be episode five, but then I did one last week by myself. Yep. And so this may actually be episode six. I think it is, but yeah. Glad to have you guys, uh, subscribe, uh, follow us on Twitter at hybrid ministry. Also check out our website hybrid ministry.xyz. Uh, give us a rating. Pull open your purple podcast app search hybrid ministry. We're right there. We're number one. If you search that word and give us a little rating, that'd be awesome. I love it. And until next time see you guys later. Thanks guys. Was

Matt Johnson (34:28):
That just had some nasty bug on.

Episode 005: Meet Gen Z

Nick Clason — Thu, 18 Aug 2022 04:00:00 -0500

In this episode, a solo podcast, Nick discusses his finding and research he has seen on Generation Z. These are the current students in your youth ministry and the soon to be regular attenders in your church as they grow older and older. The way they interact and the ways they think are going to be shaping and forming your church before you know it. So what do they want? And what are they looking for? And how does Hybrid help them in their growth and knowledge of Jesus?

TIMECODES
00:00-1:37 Who is Gen Z?
1:37-6:07 Gen Z prefers small groups more than large gatherings
6:07-10:25 Industrial vs. Digital Thinking
10:25-16:24 Busyness is not the problem
16:24-27:14 How to make a ministry model of small groups
27:14-32:25 How to set up a small group for the ultimate win
32:25-37:00 Conclusion and Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:02):
Well, hello there everybody. Welcome to episode five of a hybrid ministry podcast, solo pod today. Um, my cohost Matt is, uh, having a baby at the time of this recording. So next time we talk to him, he's gonna, he's gonna be a dad for the first time. So that's exciting. And, uh, we were scheduled to record. He's having a baby. I was like, yo dude, don't, don't worry about, don't worry about this. Don't worry about podcasting. We'll get to, we'll get to another day. And so sure enough, that's where we are. And so I am, uh, doing this on my own today. Uh, excited to have a quick conversation with you. Uh, but because it was just me had to do a little bit of deviation. So in this episode, we're gonna talk about generation Z a little bit more. I've told you in the past that I am a youth pastor and, uh, just something that I've been thinking about and noticing now for quite some time.

Nick Clason (01:02):
Uh, but this generation, I mean, they are just so different than the generations that have come before us. Uh, even as a millennial myself, I notice so much, uh, variance in who generation Z is what, uh, where some pain points are for, for us as student pastors. Um, and maybe just some opportunities of ways that we can use hybrid ministry to be reaching gen Z. You've heard Matt and I talk about some of the stats from Barna, um, that gen Z prefers it looks for a hybrid model. And so I kinda wanna dig into a little bit more. Um, so there's a, there's a statistic that came to, to me, uh, from, uh, crossroads in Cincinnati. I was at a conference in crossroads, did a study, um, of post COVID generation, Z teenagers under the age of 18. So a lot of the generation Z data that you see is gonna be gen Z students over the age of 18 due to liability reasons and the legality of, you know, pulling data from, uh, from people who have to be old enough.

Nick Clason (02:16):
And so what they were able to do is they have a data team. So they're able to find a way to, uh, talk to their teenagers and their parents get permission from them. Um, and so all these students have been through COVID, uh, it's the most recent up to date info info that you can find on them and they're teenagers. So they're the, the students that are actually in your church, your student ministry, or not yours, but theirs. Um, and, and it probably matches, you know, they're in the Midwest. And so you may have some different, um, insight Intel, but here's the fact of the matter. Um, it, honestly, this information shocked me, not in the fact of like, when I heard it, I was like, wow, that doesn't track, but more like, oh my gosh, yes, this is exactly what I've been thinking, what I've been feeling.

Nick Clason (03:03):
So here's the statistic 68% say that they prefer small gatherings over big parties. Uh, if you dig into that, even just a little bit more, uh, 65% of their attendees said that, and 76% of students that were not attending their church or not coming regularly said that they prefer that. So if you're a student ministry that wants to reach students, which odds are, you are that's most, uh, churches, most student ministries, even those that are not there have been overwhelming majority priority on, um, coming to things that are small gatherings over large parties. And I'm, I'm not a hundred percent sure why we would say that. Um, but I have have a feeling, um, that this generation, um, is ex well, I mean, I don't have a feeling. This is empirical. This is evidence. This generation was experiencing some of the highest rates of anxiety that we've ever seen before in the history of the world.

Nick Clason (04:11):
Um, pre C I heard a statistic that the average teenager was experiencing mental health and anxiety related issues at a higher clip than that of a mental health, um, admitted institutionalized patient from the 1950s. This is pre COVID. This is before the world got locked down. And this is before you were told that if you go near your grandmother, you might kill her. And so that is just an absolutely obviously absolutely terrifying proposition. Uh, so much has changed so much of the world has shifted. And so I think that, you know, I don't know that it's like large parties are a fear factor because of COVID. But I think that just the gosh, the overwhelming, like posture and position of needing to isolate, needing to be alone, I, I have just sensed a gigantic difference from them. Um, kind of coming out of that. And I know a lot of people older, the me, like, you know, gen Z teenagers of what they need, man, they need to interact with each other and relate better.

Nick Clason (05:20):
And like, yeah, all those things are true for sure. Um, but I think what we need to just remember as, as pastors, as church leaders, is that the next wave of people, um, they want to gather together they want community, but it looks different than it did before. When I was growing up as a millennial youth group was like, just cliche, right? Like, Hey, let's get as many kids here as we can. Whoever brings the most friends, gets an Xbox. And if you guys get 200 friends here, I will swallow a goldfish like that was youth ministry. And I mean, gosh, I've used some of those tactics myself. I shaved my head one time cuz we had a certain number of kids that came. That's a very industrial way of thinking. Matt's mentioned that before. And the industrial way of thinking is just this whole kinda like assembly line idea.

Nick Clason (06:19):
How many can we get here? How, how much performance, how much quality can we get the digital generation, which is gen Z and those that are coming behind. Most of us, uh, they are valuing access engagement and ultimately community. They wanna know that they are a real person, that they're an individual that they're not just another number. And so, gosh, I know it sounds so cliche. We've all heard it before. We've even probably said it, but students won't care how much we know until they know how much we care. And while this is the, the fact of the matter with our gen Z students, this is also what we're seeing with our church attenders and church members. And so we need to find a way to create community and put a priority on individualism, on small groups, with these statistics, with these facts coming at us and you know, like maybe gathering everyone together in a gigantic room where you swallow a goldfish for entertainment.

Nick Clason (07:23):
Value is not the win anymore because here's the thing. If we gather everyone in a room and you swallow a goldfish, uh, like how many of those 200 students in that room's story, did you really get to know like, did you really dive in and learn who they are and what's bothering them and the issues that they're facing and the questions that they're asking, because ultimately when we look at the model and method of Jesus, he spent tons of time, like sure, Jesus spoke to 5,000 and he broke the bread. But then he, he spent the majority of the time that we see him throughout the gospels, he spent the majority of that time individually with his disciples. And then he spent even more of it with his 12. And then he invested heavily in the three. And then in John who wrote the gospel of John, he described himself as the disciple that he loved the most.

Nick Clason (08:30):
And so Jesus even did that where he spent more and more time individually with his people that he's trying. So those disciples, Peter, James, John, those that were closest to him, they knew how much Jesus cared and they were a part of something with him. And then when they belonged with Jesus, it became much easier for them to turn the corner on belief. I mean, what if, what if the model that Jesus laid out is what the church should be trying to accomplish? Because that's ultimately what happened. Jesus gives the great commission right before the Ascension up to heaven and he says, Hey, do, as I've done walk, as I've walked, take what I've done and re uh, apply it to the world around you. What if this model that Jesus laid out thousands of years ago is what gen Z is really looking for.

Nick Clason (09:32):
What if, what the church has become with the lights and the bells and the whistles and the haze and the what if they're not for that? Like, I I've heard, uh, I've heard younger people in my church talk about the amount of money that we spend on production value, all in an aim and an effort to get people in the room. And then, and then they say, okay, yeah, that's great. But what are we doing to care for the, the poor people down the street in, in downtown Chicago? And, and what if like all the amount of pressure that we put on ourselves as churches to try and get everyone in the building? What if, what if that is not really what they're looking for? Cause I know it sounds cliche, right? But they don't care how much we know until they know how much we care.

Nick Clason (10:20):
And they're looking for smaller gatherings. Uh, there's a study that Barna did several years ago. Um, and it was well, yeah, several years ago. So 2016, uh, and, and there was a statistic, um, that said 74% of student youth pastors say that teen busyness is the main obstacle to their ministry. And I think the reason being is as he I'll just tell you, anecdotally, as a youth pastor, I, I would feel that in the, the lane or in the sense of like, okay, so, Hey, we have ones in that youth group, you should be here. And then, uh, Susie can't come because Susie has play practice. And max can't come cuz max just made, uh, the football team. And so Susie and max are missing and they're some of you, my core students. And I wish they were there, but they can't be there because they have stuff going on.

Nick Clason (11:17):
Their schedules are an obstacle to me and my ministry. And so, uh, I think most, most of us in ministry, most youth pastors would say that. I mean, I don't know if you've ever been on like the D YM Facebook group or youth pastors only Facebook group and like seen some of those questions. But gosh, those are some of the, those are some of the main points of conversation. All right. So my, my biggest obstacle in my ministry is student business, 74, almost almost three quarters of youth pastors in America that were surveyed said that. Now check this out. This is the thing that's so fascinating to me because I think we've been, we've been banging that drum for years. We've been saying, we're you guys are too busy. You gotta back it down. You gotta come to the thing. You gotta come to our, our event, right?

Nick Clason (12:05):
And this is gen Z. These are these students and they wanna do stuff. They wanna do extracurricular activities. Uh, with that same notion, I wish your teen wasn't so busy with that posture towards parents, check this out. 31% of parents think that their teenagers actually need more to do as opposed to less to do all of us would say back your schedules down, find more margin, find more white space and check this only 11%, 11% of parents think that their child is way too busy and way too overscheduled. So the problem that we as youth pastors feel or face is not the same problem that parents are feeling or facing as they're leading their children. And so what I am proposing, what I am thinking, perhaps student ministry, ministry to gen Z, uh, millennials can look like more in the future is they, you can put less pressure on the one, uh, once a week, individual gathering and instead pour all of your gas, all of your effort on to more relationally charged intimate community based settings, where, you know, the individual, I mean, guys, this is tried and true stuff, right?

Nick Clason (13:21):
Like I, I train and talk to my small group leaders, uh, at nauseam about the importance of knowing their students and knowing them well. And the reality is if one of my small group leaders has 35 students on a roster, they're not doing that. They're not knowing those students individually and they're not knowing them well, but they have a lot of kids on their roster. And as people who've been trained in an industrial way and an industrial line of thinking that, uh, communicates a fair level of success, well, you have 35 kids. Oh my word. That's a lot of people in a small group. Yeah. But how many of those 35 do you know? Well, and do you know, intimately, you know, orange wrote the book a couple years ago called lead small and it's, it's one of the most profound books because I think it's one of the things that all of all youth pastors in America would want to articulate.

Nick Clason (14:19):
And it's so simple, but it's so clear and it's so good. And so I actually use the book lead small as a small group leader's, uh, job description essentially. And so the five principles on it and listen, I'm gonna try and pull this off the top of my head. So if I do it, gimme, gimme kudos, but it's to be present it's to show up, show up, randomly show up predictably, um, and show up like outside of the program time. Uh, so it's it show up or be present it's, uh, create a safe place. It's partnered with parents. It's moved them out. That's four out of five guys. That's pretty dang good. Um, I can't remember the fifth one, and those of you listening on the other and you're screaming at me right now, but listen, this is hard when you don't have a cohost, you don't have your brain, doesn't have room to breathe.

Nick Clason (15:05):
So Colin, Cal, I don't know how you do it every week, but congratulations, you are an absolute magician cuz just talking into a microphone by yourself for hours. That is hard. Now my point in saying all that as, uh, lead small is that it's, it's really quite simple because if you look at it, it goes back to what Jesus did. And so church has looked, um, much more produced and much more glamorized. And I think a lot of that was a product of the industrial age. How can we Polish this and bring a level of quality that is going to produce the highest amount of attenders? That's been our goal. How do we get the most amount of people here in this room? And that's not, that's not been a bad thing. I don't think, but I think it's giving us a lot of quantitative data and not a lot of qualitative data.

Nick Clason (15:56):
We know a lot of people are here, but, but what are their stories? Well, yeah, you gotta get in a small group. Exactly. That's what we're saying. And that's what gen Z's saying. They say we don't care about the big thing. The big show, like you can't outer entertain us. We have TikTok on our phone. There are people swallowing, goldfish all day long on there. What we want is real, what we want is authentic. And so, you know, just one of the things that we've done is, uh, we have actually pulled away in our student ministry and, and decentralized. Um, and what I mean by that is, yeah, we gather together every once in a while, but really the, the win is what happens in the small group type setting. And so just for a little bit of backdrop, a little bit of context in our setting, um, we only meet with our students one time a week.

Nick Clason (16:46):
Uh, there is weekend services and weekend programming, but there's nothing for students with that. So we encourage them to go to go to service with their parents and we encourage them to serve, um, in one of the services. And so then therefore, uh, when we meet we're meeting at an off peak time pre COVID, we were pretty standard. We had Wednesday night for junior high students and Sunday night for high school students. And I think we squarely fell in the demographic of 74% of youth pastors saying they students are way too. Overscheduled way too busy. That's the problem. That's why I can't get anybody here. COVID came around and absolutely, you know, shut us down. We were in Chicago, we just opened up yesterday essentially. And so that's kind of a joke, but not really also. And so anyway, uh, 20, 20 summer we had been doing, um, a show like a YouTube show completely online and it was great and it was really fun, but the problem was, um, we were, we were talking strategy around our show and uh, I remember one of the, one of the youth pastors on our staff said, uh, she said, you know, the only place in the world right now.

Nick Clason (18:00):
So think this is like summer 20, 20. She said the only place in the world right now that students can't get in person is church. And so we did right there, a 180 pivot and instead of strategizing around how to make our show more, whatever, attractional more, whatever we, we said, how do we get students in an in-person moment? Now, keep in mind, this is 20, 20 summer. I've said all this a million times. I know, but I'm just trying to give you the context of it. Because at that point in time, our church multi-site megachurch in Chicagoland area. Sure. We were in the south suburb, so sure. We're about an hour away from the city, all the PR all the, um, I dunno, social media that would come along with us, not like not meeting or meeting, like there's gonna be a lot of negativity if we did.

Nick Clason (18:51):
And so we were still kind of in that world. And so our, our main church, like big church adult church, like they were still not meeting weekly. And so we created, uh, host home based small groups at that time, the state of Illinois was in, I believe it was called phase three of reopening or something like that, three or four. And, um, they, we were the guideline quote unquote was, uh, cuz you know, everything was very quote unquote, but anyway, the guideline was 50 people or less in a gathering, but there was very real chance that we were about to slide back into the, the other phase. So we were in phase three down to phase two or whatever that was, it might have been phase four down to phase three. Doesn't really matter because none of it makes sense and hopefully we never talk about it again.

Nick Clason (19:39):
But um, the, the more strict phase was 10, 10 students or more not students, sorry, people. This is for the state of Illinois. So we're like if we build small groups, um, and roster get rosters up to about 15 cap, it there knowing that typically 50 to 75% of students, uh, attend weekly. So, you know, if you have 15 on a roster, you're probably seeing seven to, to nine of them every week. And so then therefore we are within the window. Even if we get shut down even further, we can still continue to do this. And so we rolled out, um, a handful, like a bunch of digital groups that met on zoom. And then we also rolled out a ton of host homes. A and what we saw was our pre COVID attendance against enrollment jumped from like 32%. So again, this, that model was Wednesday night come, I'm gonna swallow a goldfish.

Nick Clason (20:40):
And then after that, you're gonna get in your small group with your leaders who love you and care about you. And every time a new student shows up a new kid gets dumped onto their roster. And so by the time that the school year comes to an end, that small group, leader's holding a roster of 35 students. And if I were to grab that roster and I say, Hey, who is that kid? And point to a name? There's a chance that they may have no idea cuz that kid may have come a week, that they weren't there and then they never came back. And so they've never actually met this kid, but this kid's sitting on their roster. And as far as like pipelines go and as far as like, uh, pastoral care goes, our strategy built around that is that the small group leader cares for that student.

Nick Clason (21:18):
But the reality is like that small group leader doesn't even know that student's name. And so that was that 32% of attendance. Sure. There may be 35 kids, but the average attendance against the enrollment of the overall small group was 32% pre COVID. We saw that attendance jump right out of the gate after COVID from 32% up to like 76%. And so what we saw was we saw this statistic bear itself out where gen Z's saying, this is what I want. Like I wanna be somewhere where I'm known and even in the face of COVID, I mean, dude, we were doing like full mask. Like you have to wear one, we were enforcing it. Like it was not an optimal way to gather together, but, but students were flocking. And in a lot of ways, I think, you know, the, the juxtaposition or the comparison of the fact that in COVID they're completely locked down and isolated to now we're actually offering some semblance of community and connection.

Nick Clason (22:13):
Um, obviously didn't hurt us, right? If you starve them of something, then eventually they're gonna go, absence makes the heart grow fonder, but that's what we saw. And so that was something we stumbled upon in COVID cuz we were like, oh dang look at this. And so then we just continued to run that model. And, and to this day our student ministry is still built on that. Um, I, this last, uh, spring, I had 15 small groups. I had one online group. I had four groups that met on campus. I had 10 groups that met in homes. And then of those ten four, no, I'm sorry. Five met on another night of the week. And so I had a Thursday group, I had four Sunday groups and then I had 10 Wednesday groups. And so back to the statistic about student pastors saying the biggest challenge to their student ministry is scheduling and parents not really agreeing with that.

Nick Clason (23:10):
Um, I think the fact that what, what we've been able to kind of stumble on as a student ministry is, uh, this, this variety of options as it comes to meeting, we've put so much pressure on the meeting, but what, what did Paul say? Right? I mean, I don't know that he was talking to youth pastors, but he could have been, we says don't esteem one day better than the other, but that's how we treat it with scheduling. Like, well for me to preach and for me to do all these things, like I need to get all the students together on a stage and a Wednesday night and get up in front of 'em and tell 'em about Jesus and like, yeah, that, that is the case in the eighties. But, but now for if you want to communicate as a student pastor, if you wanna communicate as a, as a communicator, you don't need a stage and a microphone to do that.

Nick Clason (23:57):
In fact, you can run this model. Like we're talking about where we have decentralized groups that meet in variety of locations all across the city on variety of nights in a, in a variety of locations, in a variety of environments. And if you record something via video, that same message can be disseminated out to all 15, all 25, all it's an infinitely scalable model. And that's the other piece too. You don't need facility. You don't need more chairs to accommodate more students. What you need is just one more, two more, three more willing host homes. And what I always tell people is now if you have wifi in a couch, you can experience what our church has to offer in student ministry. You no longer have to rely on your schedule to be free. And for your night to, to not have, you know, extracurricular activities and for your parents to drive you from wherever they, they have to drive from to get you to the campus.

Nick Clason (24:56):
And I get it like every context is different. You know, I, like I said, we're in the suburbs of Chicago, we're a big church. And so therefore we have a pretty wide reach. So sometimes we'll reach people from as far as 30, 45, even an hour away on the weekends. Um, and so those people's kids, um, that want to come back to youth group, they then have to drive 30, 45 an hour back into, you know, where our church is so that they can get to student ministry and to, to experience it. But now they can pick something that's maybe 30 minutes from the church in a host home that is, uh, geographically located 30 minutes from the campus. And so then that way you can also begin building things around region. You could even begin building things around school because how much more realistic is it for students to be in small group with other kids that are in their school, as opposed to just kids who say that they go to the same church and they see each other once a week.

Nick Clason (25:58):
And so you're like, wow, wow. Do you, when do you ever stand in front of the students? When do you, when do you ever get to know them? And that is, that has been the tough thing. Um, you've probably heard me say it, but my first day was the first day of COVID. So my first day was the, the initial and original production of our show and our show, what it did was it just, it operated as the anchor, the springboard for all of our small groups. It shifted from something that we did in COVID as a, um, youth, youth ministry program replacement to then more, a, um, discussion starter for small groups. And so it's, it's gone on this gigantic evolution now over the last two plus years, but what we're realizing the win is the win is what happens in the rooms. The win is what's happening between the students, between them and their leaders.

Nick Clason (26:47):
And really what we're just aiming to provide is good, consistent Bible teaching. Um, and we're doing that primarily and mostly through video, we are sitting down, we're recording ourselves, teaching we're recording ourselves, um, you know, presenting, uh, thought from the Bible and then the groups have what they need to, uh, to, to discuss it. And so what I wanna actually do real fast, I just wanna pull up, um, like, Hey, here's what we're doing this, uh, this fall. And so now two and a half years later, our most recent iteration of small groups, um, and, and what we're doing in each of the rooms with each of the themes. And so, um, what we do is we do like a campus night launch. Um, and then after that they have 10 weeks of small groups and that's where this, I think the biggest piece in this is the, uh, ability to vary up the, the, the days and the weeks and the nights of meeting.

Nick Clason (27:53):
And so I, uh, at my campus, I'm able to offer Sunday night meetings, Wednesday night meetings, Thursday night meetings. And that's really, I think like the, where the rubber meets the road on, on everything that makes it really helpful and beneficial. So, um, in addition to like providing teaching, we try to provide like a theme or some sort of activity for every group to do. And so this is where hybrid can really, really come into play. So the first night of small group, we're just doing sweet or sour and what our like video segment is gonna be is we're just gonna say, Hey, listen, like one great practice to do is you're getting to know each other. And as you're getting to get in the rhythm of small group messages, talk about the sweetest part of your week and the most sour part of your week.

Nick Clason (28:38):
And maybe to start that week, we're gonna just talk about, Hey, this was the sweetest part of my summer, and this was the most sour part of my summer. Um, then the week after that, we're gonna play a little game called yay or nay. And our thought behind that is we're going to do, um, like eight or 10 things that we just say like, Hey, um, cookies. And then let the, the students hold up a little paddle that says, yay, like a green sign or flip it over to a red sign that says, nay. And then we're gonna say you have 30 seconds to decide answer, and then defend your answer. And so we're hoping it kind of creates a little bit of banter between them and the students. And what we'll do is we'll just have like a 32nd timer. And then when that's over a little ding and they'll move on the next one.

Nick Clason (29:21):
And so it goes from cookies to pineapple and pizza, yay, or nay boom, 30 seconds. And then a little countdown video thing. Week three is gonna be board game nights, pretty self explanatory, bring a board game, play it together. Week number four is gonna be a service project. And what we're actually doing is we are, um, doing operation Christmas child. So we are gonna give all of our groups like 10 shoe boxes, and we're gonna challenge them to fill 10. And we're gonna do a competition to see who can fill the most amount of shoe boxes. And so then we're going to let them literally just physically do a packing party in their small groups, wherever they meet on campus in host homes. And then if they're online, we'll figure so up for that. Um, we're gonna then do, after that, we're gonna do an escape room and that's gonna operate as like an invite night.

Nick Clason (30:05):
And so we're gonna give 'em a puzzle, um, and some things and some codes to try and figure out, and we're gonna let them work on that together and hopefully bring a friend to it. And then we're gonna use like, uh, our YouTube channel or whatever with just, uh, countdown and maybe some ominous music. And so they have to get this puzzle solved within 45 minutes. And while the clock is going, there'll be little hints. And, um, voiceover things kind of popped in there by me or one of our other team members to just encourage them as they go the next week is gonna be karaoke night. So we're just gonna pull together some, some songs and into our YouTube playlist and they can just sing some karaoke together, have fun as a small group the next week is around Halloween time. So that's gonna be, uh, some Halloween house parties.

Nick Clason (30:50):
We're gonna give them, uh, an option of a couple of things that they can do, but really that's just, Hey, throw a party, get some candy, you know, do Halloween stuff. Um, then the week after that we're gonna play, would you rather, it's gonna feel very much like yay or nay instead of yay or nay like iPhones and pineapple and pizza. Now it's gonna be like, would you rather it's like, would you rather, uh, this is my favorite, would you rather question, would you rather eat ice cream flavored poop or poop flavored ice cream? Yeah, let me know, let me know the comments. We wanna know hybrid ministry.xyz or on Twitter at hybrid ministry. Come find us and let us know which of your would you rather it would be, uh, then we're gonna play fall feud, fall family feud. We're gonna, uh, send out a, a text.

Nick Clason (31:32):
Some of our students gather some survey data on some fall or like autumn related questions and then get that same data and then let them play based on their answers that they gave. And then finally, the last week of small group is, uh, show and tell donut edition, bring your favorite donut and bring a second one to share with someone else. And that's just an excuse to have a giant donut party as a celebration of the last week of small groups, then that leads us right up to Thanksgiving in the scope of our calendar. We'll come back for a couple weeks after Thanksgiving, do a couple Christmas related events and it'll feel very Christmas party esque, and then we break for Christmas. And so that's kind of how we use this idea of decentralized, um, host home model, small groups. And that's how we use technology to create for our students a hybrid experience.

Nick Clason (32:25):
And so I'm still the youth pastor. I still preach and teach, but I do view video. Um, and my talking head or my teaching content experiences get distributed to 15 groups at my campus, probably another 15 groups at our other couple campuses. And so that helps, that helps me be in 30 something places at any given time throughout the week. And so that's, that's one of the ways that we're utilizing and using hybrid ministry and hopefully doing something that is gen Z centric and gen Z forward thinking because the game back to the whole thing, they don't know, they don't care how much we know until they know how much we care. And that's what we're attempting to do is we're attempting to give them a safe place, the lead small principle, and it comes all the way back from Jesus of Nazareth who ultimately said to us, Hey, this is the great commission.

Nick Clason (33:27):
Go make disciples of all nations, teaching them everything. I've commanded. You baptizing them name the father, son, holy spirit. And he promises us as presence. I'll be with you even always to the very end of the age. That's what the church is built on church. Isn't built on a show church isn't built on a Sunday morning experience. Church is built on the people of God coming together, Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, continuing to, to meet together, to encourage one another, to spur one another on, do not give up meeting together. The writer of Hebrew says that is the, that's the core, the core tenant of the church. And for a lot of years, the only way to do that was a once a week gathering on Sundays in between farming. But we don't live in that, that agricultural world anymore. We're in a digital age. And so our students they're digital.

Nick Clason (34:22):
They, they, they think digital first. And so before, you know, it generation Z is gonna make up the majority of the attenders in your church, but you're already probably feeling some of the effects of it. And if you're not a youth pastor, like I am, it may not feel as, as imminent. Um, but they are on their way and they are on the horizon. And I know for me, they are the primary students that I am tasked with reaching right now. And so I don't have a choice if you're a pastor of older adults and millennials and gen Xers, then you may feel like this is a little further off for you and you might be right. Um, but the reality is that the oldest generation Z, they are starting to graduate from college and they're looking to enter the church. And they're saying some of these same things, probably around the same percentage that they prefer small gatherings over big parties.

Nick Clason (35:20):
So how can you use hybrid versions of ministry to reach these people and to even disciple them and even reinforce and galvanize the community around them? Well, that's it guys, that's it for the solo pod, uh, make sure you reach out to Matt, let him know that you are happy for him, that you're excited for him that he's gonna have a baby. Um, I'm gonna text him right now and figure out if they had the baby or not. They were in the hospital last night, so we'll have to see, but anyway, Hey, check us out. Online hybrid ministry dot X, Y, Z, we're on Twitter at hybrid ministry. If you find this helpful a rating or a review would be incredibly generous and incredibly helpful to us, it helps us rank higher in the podcast standings. And we have show notes. I don't know if you know this, but you can go to our, uh, hybrid ministry.xyz website. And we do an offer you a full transcript of everything that we say. And then anything that we talk about, uh, we will link to that in our show notes. So you can have access to some of those downloads for free, just go grab 'em. Um, but give us a shout. Give us a rating. Give us a review. Love to get to know you guys a little bit more. Appreciate you being a part of this journey with us. And until next time, we'll see you.

Episode 004: Rest and Boundaries

Nick Clason — Thu, 11 Aug 2022 04:00:00 -0500

In this episode, Matt and Nick discuss ways to remain personally healthy and maintaining good boundaries with digital, social media, and how to avoid burning out while working in a church or in ministry. Join in on the conversation. Leave one of your best hacks in the comment section below!

TIMECODES

00:00-1:29 - Intro and Welcome
1:29-6:28 - Rest & Boundaries with Digital Ministry
6:28-11:10 - Hack 1 - Find a Hobby
11:10-18:00 - Hack 2 - Turn your phone to mute
18:00-23:22 - Hack 3 - Avoid Social Media
23:23-28:26 - Hack 4 - Get up Early and Read your Bible
28:26-33:10 - Hack 5 - Take care of yourself physically
33:10-37:21 - Hack 6 - Use all of your vacation
37:21-38:57 - Stat Correction - Take your TikTok Watermark off of all your Instagram Reel posts
38:55-39:12 - Outro

TRANSCRIPT

Nick Clason (00:01):
Well, hello everybody. And welcome to another edition of the hybrid ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason alongside my amazing friend. And co-host Matt Johnson, Matt, how are we doing this morning,

Matt Johnson (00:18):
Nick? I am doing great. I, uh, woke up with for a nice little run, go the sunrise. It was, uh, just a really refreshing morning, able to pray a little bit. It was a great way to start the day. So,

Nick Clason (00:31):
So when you run, are you a podcast guy? Are you a music guy or are you a nothing guy so that you can have your, your prayer moments?

Matt Johnson (00:41):
Oh, good question. Um, so normally I'm a podcast guy, but right now I'm going through an audio book about how to raise great daughters, cuz I'm about to have a daughter and I'm freaking out a little bit um, but you got

Nick Clason (00:56):
The first little bit, all they do is poop, man.

Matt Johnson (00:58):
Yeah. So you know of watching all the newborn videos and stuff, but I think that was why I went for that run, but I usually pause it at some point and just, you know, do some prayer. Um, but I'm not a psychopath like Joe Rogan where I just listen to nothing, my entire run like a crazy person. I don't understand that.

Nick Clason (01:15):
I didn't know that about him, but yeah, that's psychotic,

Matt Johnson (01:17):
he, uh, I remember podcasts forever ago where he was talking about that. He's like, if you're listening to something during you're run, you're not running right. Or something along those lines. And ever since then, I was like, this man is a crazy man. So,

Nick Clason (01:32):
Well, that's actually a good kind of segueing tool I wanna talk about today. Um, I, this one, this one feels a little bit of like a deviation. I feel like from what our normal kind of topics are, but I wanted talk about rest and boundaries. Um, love it as it pertains to working in a church as it pertains to being the social media person. And so, you know, I thought, I thought we could just kind of have a conversation around the importance of that, um, rest, uh, and how we restore ourselves. Uh, because from my vantage point, if you're listening to this podcast, the odds are you are the social media person at your church, or at least you're interested in it, some degree in fashion and people like that are typically the most technologically savvy in their church. That means that they're, um, young or whatever, for whatever reason you've been pegged that person.

Nick Clason (02:26):
Uh, and so that means that you are the person on social media maybe personally. So how do you create good boundaries between, um, your work life, which is gonna be about what you're posting and what you're trying to do for your church, uh, digitally in a hybrid sort of way, and then how you personally restore and how you personally, uh, rest and reflect. And so even, you know, you saying you're out on a run and, uh, just using that as a time to kind of pray and process. I'm wondering if that's one of yours, but I'm not gonna give, give anything away. So mm-hmm, what, like before we dive into like tips and hacks, like what's been your observation or your experience with this sort of thing, as it relates to people working in churches or working in ministry context.

Matt Johnson (03:09):
Um, the biggest thing I have noticed personally, of people working in the ministry, especially, uh, the church ministry world is burnout is exceptionally high. Um, and I think it has a lot large part to do with, uh, you know, usually people are wearing multiple and multiple of hats. Um, mm-hmm, for some, probably 90% of people listen, this podcast are, you know, running social media, being a youth pastor and, uh, in charge of some other ministry at their church. So, um, and it's just, cuz we know, um, the margin of like resources at a church is just little thinner when it comes to stuff, cuz you're relying on not revenue streams necessarily. So, um, I think it's easy to get burned out and it's easy to kind of lose focus of what's actually important and not take care of ourselves. And I've also noticed usually people go on a sabbatical way too late mm-hmm um, usually we go, okay, it's time for you to do a sabbatical. And you know that person's been there 20 years on burnout. They come back from the sabbatical and they still have it fully recovered usually. So, um, yeah, we just gotta figure out how do we get you through those points where you don't have vacation where you're in the middle of everything else going on, especially like Christmas and Easter seasons is a great example.

Nick Clason (04:33):
Yeah. Yeah. It's , it's the whole sabbatical. Thing's funny. I've been in, in ministry now 11 and a half, almost 12 years. Most churches give sabbatical around year seven, but it's, it's a sabbatical from like your church. So seven years at your church and I've never, I've never made it that long. So yeah.

Matt Johnson (04:52):
exactly.

Nick Clason (04:53):
Don't know what that's they don't know what that feels like.

Matt Johnson (04:55):
I know that's more, that's the typical person. So they go from one church, you know, they get pretty to that edge of burnout and they go to the next church, they get refreshed. Cause you get that energy being somewhere new, but then like that mean it's the same workload sometimes more. Um, I've never really been anywhere. That's been a less workload than the last place for a long period of time. So

Nick Clason (05:17):
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. And, and in my case almost most, most jobs I've taken, I've not had any sort of like weaker whatever in between. Like I remember, uh, couple, a couple of job transitions ago. My last week, um, at one church was running, executing everything for summer camp. We like did our own summer camp. So like I was teaching, speaking, all those things, um, drove home, packed my office. And then that was like on Saturday morning, the next day I went to my new church and then that Monday morning I boarded the bus to go to their summer camp. So it was like two back to back weeks of summer camp. And so it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, from one job with a nice little break and a nice little pause, it was literally like boom done. Here we go onto the next one.

Nick Clason (06:01):
And so, yep. And I think that some of that mean like there's just a cultural expectation about, um, work and hustle and all those types of things and, and you know, we can get into like, uh, generations and the different, the different approaches to work and attitudes toward work and all those types of things. And I, there's definitely a difference. Um, and we don't wanna be lazy, you know, but we also wanna be smart, you know, with what we're doing in our workloads and stuff like that. So, uh, I had each of us kind of come up with three tips or tricks, uh, as it pertains to, um, rest boundaries. And so Matt, do you wanna go first and share your first tip, your first trick, your first hack, um, on having good rhythms of rest?

Matt Johnson (06:44):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, my first tip hack, um, is really find that hobby that, um, helps you escape. Um, like that is your hobby that you can, um, when you get home or on the weekend that you can go do that is nothing to do with work. like it can't have anything to do with work. And I have two, uh, one is fly fishing and I love fly fishing, especially, um, what the aspect is. I can go to the middle of nowhere and I have no cell service . And

Nick Clason (07:22):
How often are you fly fishing in Chicago?

Matt Johnson (07:24):
Uh, not a lot here, but when I was in Colorado, I was going about every other weekend and my stepdad dad, and I would go up to the mountains, find some river and I'd have go to canyons and I'd have no cell service. So even if the of the world went on fire, I'd have no idea. Um, which was awesome because like I could really unplug. And then the second thing for me personally is, uh, gaming video games. Um, you need, and that's, uh, you know, I worked in the game industry as an intern for a long time and um, they've always been a huge part of my life. So, uh, I, uh, able to escape different worlds, um, and really just like live out whatever I'm doing, but that's actually become a time where I bond with all my friends from like high school and stuff. So those are two great hobbies, both, uh, very different one. I literally unplug from the world and the other one you're virtually unplugging. So both, uh, the work good for me mentally.

Nick Clason (08:26):
Yeah. So like, okay, let, let me, uh, push, push a little bit on this. So you are not in Colorado anymore. You are in Chicago, you don't like fly fishing is not a super accessible thing here. So how have you personally kind of dealt with that as like, do you feel like, uh, the, the geography of your, your current occupation is keeping you from being able to access one of your hobbies and how, how are you like dealing with that navigating through that?

Matt Johnson (08:55):
Yeah, that's a, I mean, that's a great question. It has definitely changed the way I do fly fish. So, um, I mean there's a fly fishing community out here, but it's very different than the Colorado community they're fly fishing and ponds and like lakes and stuff.

Nick Clason (09:09):
Yeah. Which

Matt Johnson (09:10):
I mean is totally fine, but I, when I fly fish, I like to stand in the river with my waiters on, let the water rush over me and just be, really be in nature. So I've done that aspect where, okay, I'm gonna, you know, um, go lake fly fishing or whatever. Um, there are a couple streams, you know, you just gotta drive to them. So it definitely though has hindered my, uh, my escapism through fly fishing. So I've had to be a little more creative with how I escape into nature now. And that's been more intentional going to just nature preserves and, you know, um, uh, like just trying my best to escape into the wilderness, how I can here. But as you know, there's not tons of nature around the , so

Nick Clason (10:00):
yeah,

Matt Johnson (10:01):
Yeah. It is definitely a challenge here.

Nick Clason (10:04):
Yeah, no, it's good. I, I think like for me, uh, this is one of things I'm honestly really, really terrible at is having my own hobbies because I, I like my hobby. I do feel like in a lot of ways is being a youth pastor. And so, um, it's funny cuz like, uh, guy used to work for, uh, I would text him like an idea about youth mysteries, like randomly late at night and he was like stop working. And I said, I, I, this is, this is what's fun for me, you know? Uh, but the, to your point, the problem is like if I only ever do that only ever think about that, I don't have anything that's legitimately just for me, you know? Yep. Um, and even like things like I'll go on runs and I'll listen to podcasts and they're typically ministry related podcasts, you know, I have some, I have some that are more hobby related like sports or whatever. Um, and those typically those typically fly to the top of my playlist queue anyway. Uh, so that, that maybe is the way I do it, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not very good at this. So thanks. Thank you for challenging me already this

Matt Johnson (11:10):
Morning. It's my

Nick Clason (11:11):
Goal, man. So all right. Uh, okay, so here's a hack I have. Okay. Um, and I don't know if this is a good strategy or not, especially for like a communications person in your church. Um, it's gonna, it's gonna maybe feel like, uh, not the, maybe the best strategy. Uh, but my phone personally, dude, like it never rings. Yep. Um, I literally have it on mute all the time. in fact I was it yesterday, maybe it was two days ago. I literally lost my phone for like two hours at work. And um, I, I, I retraced all my steps. I couldn't find it. And do you know what everyone's solution was? They said, oh, do you want me to call you which like I have an office phone. Like I would've done this myself. If I thought that this was an option, but I knew it wasn't because even if they call me, it was just going to be silent and, and people are like, oh, but if you're near it, you'll hear it buzz.

Nick Clason (12:13):
No, like not on vibrate, like all the way silent. Like it never, I don't have any notifications come through ever. Um, and so like the only thing that's even like remotely, uh, close to my phone ringing, quote unquote, is, uh, I have a watch. And so like my, my wife, her texts and phone calls, those are the two things that like come through to my watch. Otherwise everything else is essentially muted. And I don't have like email push notifications come through to my phone. Um, the only thing that does come through to my phone or like text messages or whatever. And, and that's part of my, like part of my strategy, because as I've stepped into this place, which has got just more people and more demands and all those types of things, uh, more and more people are looking and kind of vying for your time.

Nick Clason (13:01):
And so instead of the way I, the hack, I guess, and this for me is instead of letting my phone dictate to me when I'm supposed to respond, I, I choose those and I build pockets of those into my schedule, you know? So like it's not that I don't check my email. I check it every single day, multiple times a day, but I don't do it when it dings and comes through to me. Um, and that's also just like for me, a focus, uh, a focus hack as well, because if I'm writing something or doing something and I get a ding or a notification, uh there's there's studies that say like the brain is unable to multitask and is unable to, to go over to one thing and come back to another thing with the same capacity it takes, it takes a gr I don't remember what the exact like numbers are, but it takes a ridiculous amount of time for your brain to shut that back off and go back into, you know, that other thing.

Nick Clason (13:56):
So, uh, I just, I grab my phone and if there's stuff on there that I need to respond to, I do it, but I do so kind of on my own time. So I, I really, I treat text a lot, like how I treat email. Um, because again, they're not, they're not driving me and speaking of driving, uh, sometimes that drives people insane. Um, and so I, you know, I just like, I'm up front with them a little bit and I say, Hey, sorry. I was, you know, doing whatever, cuz it's, it's not that I'm often just being lazy and ignoring it. It's just that for me to be able to focus, I need to not be being distracted. Mm-hmm so,

Matt Johnson (14:31):
Yep. No, I love that. I, uh, I'm the same way I keep my phone on mute too. Um, except for my wife and, uh, setting that up has been a game changer for me personally. And I'm sorry if I miss your calls or it takes me a little bit to get back to you, but if it's super important, give me a call. Like you, it goes to my watch and then I go check my phone and then, um, see what's going on. So

Nick Clason (14:55):
Yeah. Well, and I mean, yesterday I sent you like four messages, um, and they, like, none of them were urgent and they were all just sort of like, um, observations or like funny things or like, oh, did you see this? And you just, you responded to all of them, like in one text, you know? Yep. And I didn't need it. I, I didn't need you to respond. So I was totally fine. Like with the pace with which you replied, I knew eventually you'd get to it. And so I wasn't, you know, I wasn't like worried about it. And so that contrary to popular belief, uh, that is okay. Yes,

Matt Johnson (15:27):
Definitely. And we need to be okay with that as a culture and a society. Um, and we also need to realize that 99% of things that we have think is urgent are not urgent now. Um, that's something I've run into a lot. Uh we're like, we get this out right now. This is super important. And I'm like, well, yeah, let's get it out right now. But the difference between now and, you know, an hour from now, there's no difference actually in communication or, uh, the stress level of that. So, and that's gonna, we have to get out of the tyranny of the urgent. So mm-hmm

Nick Clason (16:02):
yeah. So, so like, let's get super, super practical on this for just two seconds. Cuz so like my wife and I, for whatever reason, the last two churches I've worked at have been like, they've been like the absolute iron curtain for uh, text messages. And so like my phone doesn't really work super well in, in the churches I've worked in. And so my wife and I have just defaulted to using, um, like WhatsApp as a text message service. And so I use that regularly every single day, but really only with my wife. And so that's how I have like custom notifications of hers that come through. But nobody else's. Um, how, how have you set it up where you get text messages alerted to you that are only from your wife and nobody else, like what's the setup for you on your

Matt Johnson (16:48):
Like phone? Yeah. I just I've set her up on iPhone. Like you can start setting people up and you do not disturb as like, um, your favorites or whatever. And that's who she is. I have her and my mom and that's it. And I only have MYM on just cuz you know, whatever craziness could happen back home, I want to be available. But um, and then my wife obviously, cause like I said, she's pregnant, so I gotta be ready at the drop of a whim to make sure, you know, whatever happens happens. So it's been a yeah, it's my wife and obviously she's, you know yeah. My favorite

Nick Clason (17:20):
Even if, even if she's not pregnant. Yeah, yeah. It's it's your wife. So I love that. Cool. Yeah. So like you said, I think that's a really good, I think, I think, uh, we're we are in a little bit of a cultural moment of shifting more to this because I mean asked, think about the other day I grabbed my phone and I was like, dang, there's so many just notifications on here. And like that's what apps have have learned like, oh push notifications are the way to get people's attention. Yeah. But if, you know, I like when I grab my mom's phone, for example, she has 47,000 unread notifications. I'm like, what is the point of this? Like your brain can't physically process all this. So I dunno. Anyway. All right. Hack number two for you.

Matt Johnson (18:01):
Um, so even I'm gonna piggyback off a little bit of your phone stuff. So mine is also with phone and this is really to do with mental health and this is gonna probably sound crazy coming from the, a marketing communications person is I try to avoid social media as much as possible in my free time. Um, yeah. So I try to keep up with social media trends. So maybe at the most I'm on, you know, I'll look at social media an hour at the most, but I try driving a hit an hour, you know, I try to do like maybe 30 minutes, I've deleted most of the apps off my phone. So I actually have to be do my due diligence, like make it part of my work rhythms. Like I'm taking social for work. I'm not checking social to pass time. Um, and I was just realizing that I was just becoming so negative about so many different things, um, that I shouldn't be negative or mad about. Like my sports teams being mad about whatever's going on with them. um, mad about some

Nick Clason (18:57):
Sports are so dumb, man. They get me in such a bad news.

Matt Johnson (19:00):
Exactly. That's like, why am I mad about this? Like I used to love this, uh that's cuz I wasn't on Twitter worried about what other people were saying or worried about what trade was happening or on Reddit, seeing what all the sports, all the people in my fandom, my, um, think, um, seemed with like video games, the bashing of like video games or even the church, like, you know, you would go on Twitter and I can see how people, you know, make, say, say something about the church and it's really easy to get down about that. So I just started like going, you know, this isn't worth it for me mentally. Um, and uh, I'm not gonna waste my time with it. So I deleted a bunch of the apps and I've made it okay, I'm gonna check social for work purposes or um, check it up on family.

Matt Johnson (19:44):
But I, most of my family doesn't even post anymore. We have our group chats and that's kind of, what's become the thing for us to like keep in touch with each other. So if I have a photo of ultrasound or whatever, I don't need to post that on Instagram right away. I just send it over to my group, my family group chat, and I hear all their thoughts and there's only ones I even care about. So, um, yeah, it's definitely weird cuz like the last couple episodes we've talked about how important it is for you to be on social. Um, but yeah, I think it is important to be on social, but you also need to have that balance where social media is not taking over your life. And if you're starting to see it affect it mentally affect you. Like you, you should do something about that. Mm-hmm and you and I were talking yesterday about all the studies that have come out about the effects of social media on the brain, watch the social dilemma on Netflix. Like we don't know, well, we're starting to see the ramifications of social media and we need to have clear boundaries with it. I think personally.

Nick Clason (20:42):
Yeah. I, you know, as a youth pastor we'll post a lot of stuff on social media or whatever, and then like I'll have a mom or dad or whoever a parent say, you know, Hey, our kids don't have social media and I will literally respond with that is great. And I fully support that decision. Exactly. Honestly, I do. Like if, if be, so I feel like being on social media is an opportunity to try and reach a certain demographic of kid. Who's probably not doing anything, um, useful or good with their time on social media and if they have poor boundaries and they're just on it all the time, like then I want us to, to be a part of their feed and part of their algorithm. And so that there is some, some Jesus in there. Right. But otherwise if a parent is parenting in that sort of way, like I support it fully.

Nick Clason (21:29):
And quite frankly, as a dad of a six and a half year old, like I can't imagine giving him social media here in more years or, or 10 or whatever, you know, whatever that's gonna be like. And so I, I think it's, yeah, it feels very like double edged sword. So it's, we're, we're producing things for social media. We're producing things for digital content, but we're not, um, necessarily personally engaging in those things. Mm-hmm , you know, um, ourselves and yeah, I, I agree with you. Like there's been times where, um, I, I feel very, uh, full of anxiety or I'm really like, I notice myself being really short, like with my kids, I have a really short, uh, like just patience level with them. And oftentimes that's a direct correlation to just the amount of time I'm spending on my phone or the amount of time that I'm, you know, worrying about whatever sort of thing I'm and that's, you know, especially in the last couple years, like, uh, at work and stuff, I'll people will talk to me about news, like news things. And I literally am like, oh wait, what's happening. Like I don't watch the news. Like it is not, is not good for my mental health. Just tell me what I need to know and what lit was actually affecting me and the rest. I'm gonna try to not think about cuz that's again, the, the, I think the brain was not meant to process the amount of information that we as Americans have access to on a daily basis basis.

Matt Johnson (22:55):
No, it definitely wasn't. I mean, you just look at the history of the human brain and you see like, this is the only time in culture where we've really ever had to deal with this. So, and why is anxiety, depression and everything so high right now? I mean, it's not all cause of social media, but definitely that's a contributing factor to it. So cause I felt it, you know, I feel it, I get more depressed and anxious like you were saying, so

Nick Clason (23:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, alright, sweet. So, um, alright. So my next one is, uh, it's gonna feel like a little bit of a, a Zig to the zag of this rest conversation uh, but I, uh, gosh, it's been about a year, year and a half or so. Um, but I have made, um, mornings, uh, getting up in the morning with coffee, going, uh, to read my Bible a priority and it's been a thing I've basically not missed for about a year. So I used to, you know, I have, I have young kids, uh, six and four. And so, um, you know, a year ago, year and a half ago when I started there five and three or two or whatever. And uh, I would used to just sleep in, um, until they came and woke me up, which so that there was no sleeping in all right.

Nick Clason (24:09):
But there was a, they were pretty, pretty good. Uh, we have this little like clock thing that turns green when they're allowed to get outta bed. And so that's set for seven. And so they're pretty good about following that. And so I would, I used to lay in bed and sometime after seven they'd come in with their little clock that was green and they'd say, Hey, our clock's green, you know, we get up and I would always feel like I was just running, be behind. Like I was, I'd always just felt like I, uh, was catching up to the rest of my day, the rest of my morning. And so kind of around that, whatever, whatever time, like a year ago or so I was like, I'm gonna get up at six every morning cuz I knew that they're probably gonna get up around seven.

Nick Clason (24:47):
And uh, the way I did it is we have like, uh, uh, Amazon Alexa app, uh, like all of our lights. Uh, so like I have my lights automatically turn on at six down in the dining room and every night before I go to bed, now I program coffee. And so as soon as I wake up, I literally smell coffee and see the lights. Um, those things just helped me get out of bed. the idea of setting an alarm and then getting up and then going down and doing all that stuff. Mm-hmm um, it, it, I just would, at that time I would just mentally cash it in and say whatever I'm asleep in, I'll do it again. I'll do it tomorrow. And so like those few hacks have helped me get up. Um, and then what I do is I get up, I drink coffee and I spend time reading my Bible and that has been one of the most centering and grounding things for me.

Nick Clason (25:37):
And, uh, I was doing it by myself and then a couple months later my wife actually joined me. Um, and so it's been a thing that we'll we'll do together. We'll just both get up. Coffee's going, we each have a cup. We're sitting, uh, at the dining room table, she's reading her Bible, I'm reading my Bible. Um, and we are just connecting ourselves, centering ourselves to our source. Mm-hmm and it's less sleep. Yes, because I'm waking up an hour early. So on the like immediate need of rest, it may feel like it's, it's less right. But as a discipline, now that's woven in to what I do. Um, other things have adjusted to accommodate this because I know how important it is. And so for example, we don't stay up as late because we know we're gonna get up at six, uh, to read our Bible and to drink coffee.

Nick Clason (26:26):
And so maybe we're not watching that next episode when we end one on Netflix instead we'll turn the TV off and you say, all right, what? It's probably time to go to bed, you know, so we can get up. But that has been an absolute game changer for me, uh, just in, in my personal rhythms. And um, if I start my day, that way with a little bit of it's a slower pace, uh, without the kids, um, waking me up outta bed, uh, then, then when they do come outta their rooms and everything like that, I feel like I've done what I need to do. Um, and I'm able to, uh, go after whatever I need to go after that day. Um, as it pertains to work, rest, social media, all those types of things. Like all those things can happen now because my time with Jesus has already taken place. Mm-hmm so that's been a game changer for me develop

Matt Johnson (27:14):
That. I, uh, yep. I do. I do the same thing. So, uh, wake up early and I love reading my Bible in the morning, um, before or after my workout. So

Nick Clason (27:26):
Yeah. Yeah, it's good. And like I said, uh, you know, I, I, I knew myself and so know yourself. Like I knew I needed some prompting to get out bed. And so that's why I learned how to use the programmer on my coffee maker. Um, and I, I recently started roasting my own coffee. And so I, my, the coffee I make at my house is actually my, my, my favorite coffee, you know, there's a really good roaster down the street that a lot of people here like, and I like it too, but I, I think my coffee's better. I think your coffee's better. What

Matt Johnson (27:58):
I'm literally

Nick Clason (28:00):
Well, what I'm literally drinking right now, I roasted at like five 30 last night in my garage. So like, it can't, it cannot get fresh. Exactly. You know? And so there's really, you know, that's maybe another podcast topic, all do

Matt Johnson (28:13):
A coffee roasting podcast.

Nick Clason (28:15):
I love that job. Also people out there it's really easy and it's actually quite cost effective. Very, so, uh, there you go. All right, Matt, your last one, what do you got? So

Matt Johnson (28:26):
My next, my last one, um, this is something that you, I think everyone should be doing is we gotta take care of ourselves physically in some aspect. Um, yeah.

Nick Clason (28:36):
Yeah.

Matt Johnson (28:37):
I, uh, I'm, I love running. Running's a great time for me to, uh, you know, really process and rest and get my endorphins up and think, and also take care of my heart and my body. And it's also, I've noticed as I've worked in ministry, like every year I gain a little bit more weight because, you know, they just get a little crazy. And also as you know, these churches and ministries, they love the things that are bad for you like donuts and, uh, um, as much junk food as they can get chips, mountain do, especially being a youth pastor, all the stuff you deal with, it's really easy to kind of lose sight of your, uh, physical health. But, uh, honestly my favorite thing to do is to swim. Um, I'm a big swimmer. I was a swim in my, with, uh, in high school, very competitively went to, uh, state and stuff.

Matt Johnson (29:27):
So, um, met my wife's swimming. It's like a really big thing in our lives. And, uh, what I love about swimming is waking up at, you know, um, usually very early, like 5:00 AM. going to the pool and it's just, it's like dark out and I'm just in the water, me and my thoughts. Um, mm-hmm and so it's kind of a time of meditation. I'm, you know, weightless, I'm able to really work out, control your breathing cause you have to in swimming, it's this very, um, cathartic thing for me that I've, uh, really grown to love. And it is honestly probably the hardest thing to wake up to. Cause there's nothing like waking up and being cold outside and going. I'm gonna go get in a 72 degree pool and uh, swim for an hour. And, uh, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest. It's been a little bit harder to keep my swimming hobby here in Chicago, because there's just not a lot of pools here, really,

Nick Clason (30:28):
Dude, I know, trust me. So,

Matt Johnson (30:30):
And I'm coming from a world, like when I lived in Colorado where every recreation center had a pool, cuz the pool swimming was just a huge, um, pastime there. So it's been very hard to keep that up here. That's why running has become more of my zeitgeist, but like swimming is that thing where, cuz you can't really have headphones swimming. You can't, you, I mean you have to be in your thoughts, which, um, it's just a weird time, but it's also a time that I've talked to God more than any time in my life is when I swim. So

Nick Clason (31:01):
yeah, it's good. Yeah. Since, you know, like when we moved here, it was middle of pandemic and so like, uh, we canceled our gym membership in Ohio from when we moved and I didn't pick one back up when I got here, obviously cuz there's a pandemic going on and gyms weren't even a thing. And so, uh, I took up running just to get out of the house and I never thought I'd be a runner, but you know, um, I am now and I look forward to it and I enjoy it. And in a lot of the same ways, it's kind of that just cathartic experience for me. Um, a great place to be alone with my thoughts or even just on a podcast and back to your hobby point. Like there are, I listen to a lot of ministry podcasts and so those are in there for sure.

Nick Clason (31:48):
But uh, the ones I most look forward to our, the entertainment ones, ones about sports, basketball, fantasy football, all those types of things. And so that's my, that's my attempt to disconnect, you know, a little bit. And so I agree like man exercise that there's such a, I don't know what I, I think like the landscape is shifting a little bit, like I think millennials and gen Z are, are pushing these things. But I think that there's some, there's been some notions of older generations that are like, oh, I don't have time to do that. Like I just, I need to focus on my work and um, that's just, that's super,

Matt Johnson (32:20):
Very, somewhat healthy.

Nick Clason (32:24):
And, and you like in all of this, right, this entire conversation is woven into like you, you need to be the best version of you to be the most effective at leading some of stuff. And if you're not, you're you're not gonna be very effective. Mm-hmm so find whatever that thing is. And you know, like you, my wife will say like, you know, she's like, she'll struggle to like find time to do it. And I'm like, you, you can't afford not to a little bit, you know, like you gotta, you gotta figure it out. You gotta make it a priority. And so it's, you know, cuz we got kids and so someone's gotta stay with them. And so, you know, I'm like, Hey, like I know this is important for you to do so let me, uh, you know, let's, let's figure it out so that you can have what you need. I can have what I need, all that type of stuff.

Matt Johnson (33:04):
So exactly.

Nick Clason (33:05):
Yeah. All right. Love it. Last one for me then is, uh, this one's work related. Um, but use all of your vacation time that your work gives you.

Nick Clason (33:17):
Like don't leave any on the table. I, there are people who like don't use it all and I, what are you doing that is li PTO stands for paid time off your, your job is telling you that we will pay you. If you take this time off, you have earned this. This is a part of our agreement that we've made with you. You can work here and we will still allow you your paycheck and your salary. If you, uh, take this amount of time off mm-hmm so don't leave any PTO on the table. Like that is a bad, bad strategy. , uh, use it all. And you know, there like our, our, our work lets you like roll some like a, a week's a week's worth into the next year. Um, I never have that to do. Like I literally never have any to roll.

Nick Clason (34:12):
I burn all of it. It is gone. I use it early. I use it often. Like it is, uh, it's it's one of my strategies to staying, uh, you know it, my, I don't know. It's just, for me, life is more than just a job and life is more than just work. And so, uh, use all of your PTO. That is a great way to stay fresh, stay healthy, do the things that are important to you, do the things that matter to you. And even if you're, you know, if you're listening to this and you're in ministry, odds are, you probably are thinking like, okay, but I don't have a lot of money to go on vacation. Then don't go on vacation, just stay home and do fun stuff with your family and your kids. But like, don't like, just because you can't go anywhere else doesn't mean that you should then default into going to work. Like the place will not burn down if you're not there. Yeah. So

Matt Johnson (35:02):
Exactly. And um, my favorite thing is it's kind of a badge of honor with the, uh, lot of older gen the older generation that I know is like, yeah, I have this much PTO. I haven't used my old vice president on marketing. My old job used to have every year he would roll over like 120 hours of PTO. And finally I got to the point where I would tell him, like, you need to take PTO, don't check on me. Like just go on vacation. He was his vacation. So, um, he started doing that and he would take two weeks off a year to just do some carpentry stuff, cuz that was his favorite hobby and it was super healthy for him. So, um, but he hadn't done that, you know, for like 15 years at the company. So take your PTO. I totally agree.

Nick Clason (35:43):
You look, you literally, I mean there are literal studies out there I should have, I should have had 'em to cite 'em a little bit more, but you are not good if you don't have margin baked into your life, like you, your body and your brain need those things to make you more creative. Yep. And it's, you know, in some of those spaces and in some of those margins where your brain will be able to connect some of those dots, you can't just, you can't just hard charge and be eight hours or 12 hours a day with, with no space, you know? Yeah. Some of the, I, I, I dunno if you've ever heard of this map, but uh, I think like Winston Churchill, um, he would take like a nap every single day and he is like one of the most, you know, successful, uh, leaders that we've known in our world.

Nick Clason (36:28):
And he did that because he knew it was good for his brain. Good for that rhythm of rest. And it made him a better leader. Exactly. So, yep. Yeah. So cool. All right guys. Well that is it for today. Uh, just some hacks, some thoughts. Um, again, like we said, your ministry will not be successful if you are not personally healthy a hundred percent. So be personally healthy, put the guardrails, the things that you need into place, um, figure out your rhythms, your hobbies, and the things that, um, work for you and are important to you. And, uh, don't, don't burn out because your church and the world and, uh, people, they, they need what you have to offer and so take care of yourself and uh, those other things will, uh, will be there when you come back. I promise any last parting thoughts.

Matt Johnson (37:21):
I have one thing that I wanted to talk about real quick, about last week's episode that you and I talked about as a correction, uh, we had talked about the TikTok water mark, and I wanted to correct everyone, myself, especially cause you and I talked. And it's something that changed very quickly is if you had that TikTok water, mark Instagram is going to suppress you now. So mm-hmm I wanted to just tell everyone don't do that. We'll have more tips in an upcoming episode about that. but just wanted to get on the record as quick as possible. Hey, we messed up there. Um, pull that. Don't put the water mark on Instagram, so

Nick Clason (38:00):
Yep. That's my fucked box. Yeah. Well, and, and if you listen closely, I was trying to disagree with Matt amicably, uh, live last

Matt Johnson (38:07):
Week. So, and we get into like, I read that article forever ago and I sent it to you and then I changed the article and I hadn't read it and I didn't do my due diligence there. So a lot of good lessons in it, but yep.

Nick Clason (38:19):
Well, and that just goes to show just how quick everything changes. So what, what works today at, you know, quote, unquote time of this recording? Like may not even still be treated yeah. Watch

Matt Johnson (38:28):
Next week the watermark is boosted. So let's just say, who knows?

Nick Clason (38:34):
Yeah. That's why all this is very in lifetime, very important. Like this is, you know, trends now, but especially with social media, I mean, they're always changing their algorithms and uh, you're, you're on borrowed space with them. So you have to play a little bit by their rules. Exactly.

Matt Johnson (38:48):
Yep. So I just wanted to give that correction real quick before we think goodbye to the audience. So.

Nick Clason (38:54):
Cool. All right guys. Appreciate it. Hey, follow us on Twitter. http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry we are online, at http://www.hybridministry.xyz and, uh, give us a subscribe, maybe a rating. That'd be incredible. I share this with a friend and we will talk to you guys next day.

Episode 003: Is Digital Discipleship Even Possible?

Nick Clason — Thu, 04 Aug 2022 04:00:00 -0500

In this episode Nick and Matt chat about discipleship, Gen Z, who recently revealed that 51% of them prefer online ONLY ministry, and how to wade into that sticky in between of in-person and online, some might even call it "hybrid!"

Follow along on twitter - twitter.com/hybridministry

Or find full transcripts and show notes at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TIMECODES
00:00-2:15 Is Digital Discipleship Possible?
2:15-3:47 Aren't people tired of online?
3:47-5:05 Meet Gen Z
5:05-7:55 Are ministry and discipleship the same thing?
7:55-12:08 What does Hybrid Discipleship look like?
12:08-13:45 How can Hybrid not feel like COVID 2.0?
13:45-18:35 How to utilize online content to facilitate spiritual growth?
18:35-25:46 How to repurpose content you already have
25:46-28:20 The danger of ignoring Gen Z and Digital Discipleship
28:20-31:17 How to use your staff to create content
31:18-35:17 What does Gen Z want?
35:17-36:14 Outro

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
Well, that's why I think it's a definition thing a little bit, right? Yeah. Cause like I said, I do think there's a life on life component of the social. Yeah. So, um, I think it's that's I think it's hybrid, so all right. Let's uh, let's get started. So we don't say all the good stuff before we start recording. Great. Well, everyone, welcome to another episode of hybrid ministry podcast today. I am your host, Nick Clason alongside my friend, Matt Johnson. Good morning, Matt. How you doing mark morning? I'm doing great. How are you, Nick? Good, good. Hey, I wanted to talk today. Um, I just honestly have a conversation wondering is digital discipleship even possible. Um, and so I think that there's gonna be a lot of definitions that we need to kind of clarify, um, in order to have our conversation, but to sort of lay the foundation of this, Matt, there's a statistic out there that you continue to share with me that continues to blow my mind. So would you tell the people about gen Z and their preference of online discipleship?

Matthew Johnson (01:06):
Yeah. So something that we need to be very cognitive of is 51% of gen Z. Wanna do ministry online only

Nick Clason (01:18):
Crazy.

Matthew Johnson (01:20):
So that is the major that is more than half only wanna do online.

Nick Clason (01:27):
Yeah. Which is insane. What, and is there more, when you say online ministry, are there more clarifiers to that? Like what does that mean? What does that look like? Or is that just like a, Hey, would you prefer ministry online or in person? And they just clicked online?

Matthew Johnson (01:43):
Uh, so from my understanding is they were asked you want, would you rather be engaged with ministry only online, partially online or never online and 51% said only online that's and then I don't know, the, the other stat a hundred percent off my top of the head, but it was the other vast majority was hybrid and the in person only was definitely the lowest out of the three.

Nick Clason (02:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Dang. Okay. So here we are as pastors or ministry leaders or whatever, we are trying to navigate this world, this post COVID world, where we feel as though most people were kind of done and kind of tired with the online, the streaming and all that type of stuff. And so we're attempting to return. Um, and then we hear a stat like that, which it feels like it goes against our gut. Yeah. Right. Because we feel like everyone wants to be back. At least that's sort of the notion or everyone's tired of zoom or everyone's tired of streaming church services. So does that just mean that when we say everyone, we're not talking about generation Z in that place, or we're only speaking anecdotally to those that maybe only do wanna return, but we're not having conversations with people that are fine with a online, only version of ministry. Um, like what do you think's what do you think's going on with that? Cause I feel like there's a chance that people hear that and they, they don't believe it or they don't sense that to be true in their context. Um, and that just, it feels like it's an immediate like, well that that's outta touch. That's not real, but this is a, this, this is a recent study, right. This came out a couple months ago. It's not, it's not old. Yeah.

Matthew Johnson (03:34):
This is the most recent metrics. So, um, when people tell me, I don't believe that that's not real, they're going off of their gut and it's cuz we like we've talked about in previous episodes, the, the church has to evolve. Um, and that is a change is terrifying. So when I tell any church leader, Hey, this is what we're seeing. This is what we're hearing. And I need to remind everyone that's listening to this podcast, gen Z is getting older. Gen Z is soon gonna be the adults in your church before you know it. Well,

Nick Clason (04:08):
The, the, the oldest gen Z is like 20, 21, 22 years old now,

Matthew Johnson (04:14):
Right? Yes. So that's what, like, they're just getting older now. So sooner or later they're gonna be the adult con the young adult congregation and your church is gen Z. And like, we need to start reaching them. like,

Nick Clason (04:28):
Yeah. Well, cuz I remember, gosh, like two, three years ago I felt like in this, the podcast space, people were just starting to talk about reaching millennials. Mm-hmm like millennial, like I'm a millennial and I'm in my mid thirties almost. Yep. So like that, that train of like thinking of millennial is a young adult. Like they're not like millennials are, are a, the largest generation and the primary base of our workforce these days. Yeah. Now, you know like, so if, if you're just starting to think about millennials, it's time to just honestly shift that thinking to generation Z. Yep. Cause generation Z and millennials could not be more vastly D

Matthew Johnson (05:05):
Exactly.

Nick Clason (05:07):
So let's, let's talk about, um, what would you say Matt? Let's, let's just kind of create a working definition for the base of this conversation. Um, so 51% of generations you prefers online, only ministry is ministry and discipleship. Are they the same thing? Do you think?

Matthew Johnson (05:29):
I guess it depends on what your definition of discipleship is. Um yeah. Or your definition of ministry so, uh, I think discipleship of ministry could be the same thing, but I think in most churches there have definitely different definitions and pathways.

Nick Clason (05:47):
Yeah. And the goal of every church in some form or function is to fulfill the great commission of Jesus. I hope so. Which is to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of son, holy spirit, and then teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. Yep. And then Jesus says, I'll be with you always, even to the very end of the age. And so discipleship the, the most basic definition. And I actually like kind of pairing evangelism with it, uh, because I think it takes the edge off of evangelism. So it goes from just hop. Someone says yes, to helping someone take a step closer to Jesus. Yep. Regardless of where they are preconversion post. But I think that helping someone take a step towards Jesus is discipleship, which is what evangelism is, except for. You're trying to have someone do that who maybe wouldn't identify themselves as a follower of Jesus just yet.

Nick Clason (06:43):
So how do you help someone in their discipleship journey to take a step closer to Jesus and can that be done digitally? Yeah. Or what are the ways in which we can Wade into that digitally or more better, right. Yeah. Hybrid. Uh, cuz I do think that if I look back, uh, if I look back on my journey as a follower of Christ, um, almost every pivotal moment, um, that has some sort of, uh, significant growth moment for me. I can tie a face to those time periods. Yeah. Right. Like my high school years, I think about my youth pastor, my college years, I think about my then girlfriend now wife, um, after that different mentors people have I've um, you know, connected with in ministry or other like youth pastors that I've networked with. Yep. And so there's been a very vital and important, um, you know, connection that takes place a human to connection. Uh, and so that feels like it completely opposes the ability for this to be done online. Yeah. So like let's just, let's chat through that. Like how could that be done in a hybrid sort of sense? Yeah. Love it.

Nick Clason (08:05):
So, um, with that in mind, like as I say that, what, what comes to your mind? What are your thoughts? What are your as a marketer? What are your responses to the, to that, you know, maybe opposition that you can't do this discipleship online,

Matthew Johnson (08:18):
Um, I'd say you probably have not strategized or thought about it enough. Um, and the reason I say that is because look at the success of you version, um, just look at the success of life church in General's online platform. so you're telling me that people that ha go to life church online, you know, every week super invested are not being discipled at all. And I'd say that's probably not accurate cuz I know people that have, you know, been saved through life churches, online platform and have done everything fully online with them. Mm-hmm I've also seen people as I worked at, when I worked at dare share and we developed our life in six words that be discipled completely remotely, cuz we had to do it in COVID from, I don't believe in Christ at all to, I believe in Christ to I'm making disciples all on a virtual platform, you just have to be intentional with it. You have to have the right resources, the right content, the right platforms. And uh, I'm not, and I'm not saying get rid of the, you know, the person to person connection at all. I'm just saying you don't necessarily have to do that in person at all.

Nick Clason (09:30):
Yeah. Well, and you can still have a connection with a person without it actually being in person. Exactly. It's gonna, it like to your point, it's gonna take some strategy and it's gonna take some intentionality, but one of the craziest things about me and my story is I started at the church that you and I both work at the first day of C. And so, uh, I, I went into the office for five hours and then I got sent home indefinitely and we live in Chicago. And so COVID is still happening here. Yep. unlike other parts of the country that pretty much blew it off altogether. Right. And so for the first several months I actually joined a small group, um, and met friends that I'm still friends with to this day. Yeah. But I didn't see them in person for almost three or four months.

Nick Clason (10:16):
Yep. And uh, it's actually funny because the leader of that, like I didn't lead it. I just joined a group cuz you know, Amanda, my wife and I like, we're new to this church and we're like, we just need to meet some people. This is the only way to do it right now. And the leader of that group was like, before I met you, I would've said it's impossible to make a relationship with someone virtually. Yeah. But because I only met you in COVID I realized how possible it was like we had, uh, we would do these like zoom groups and they, they were hosted by the church. Um, and so like we were in this, we would all log into the same zoom and then we'd break out into zoom, breakout rooms. Yeah. And then, uh, the, the church sanctioned time would end and our leader would send a second link and we would all jump on our own zoom call after like the church time slot had ended.

Nick Clason (11:08):
Yeah. And I remember one night we were on that zoom until like 11 or 1130 at night. Um, like, and it was supposed to be over at like eight. And so we were, we were all hanging out like just a cuz it's COVID and we were all bored and there's nothing else to do and we all missed humans. Yeah. Right. Um, but that, that's an example. And I think, I think that picture right there is how that could be the case. However, I think because of COVID or the, the triggering effect of even thinking about that again, that's what people are done with. Yep. Like I don't wanna do that again. Yeah. Right. And so even as I propose that, or even give that as an example, I can imagine if you're listening to this on a run or mowing the lawn or whatever, you're like, heck no, dude, I am done with that. That is over like I am out of that world. Yeah. Uh, so how does that exist now in 2022 or beyond? Yeah, because we don't, we don't wanna enter back into that weird world.

Matthew Johnson (12:09):
Yeah. So I think a great, okay. So a great example of how this works and how you can build relationships virtually is video games. So Nick, you know, I'm a pretty avid obvious video game player, the amount of people I know, and that I've met personally that have very deep friendships and they've only met each other on my call of duty so, yeah. Um, and I think it's the intentionality of just keeping those conversations going and you're doing a hobby together that you love and, um, uh, it's also entertaining and it gives you something to look forward to and, you know, it's all the psychological stuff also behind, um, you know, building relationships. So you can definitely make discipleship work virtually or hyperly if you're intentional about it. Um, and it doesn't happen well

Nick Clason (13:02):
In your point. Right. But your point right there was about relationships. So you, you and I just both proved that you can build a relationship. Yep. Digitally. Right. So then the question is, uh, if, if discipleship is super tied to a relationship, if, if that has to be a distinctive of discipleship, then it, it can be done. It just has to be done with intentionality.

Matthew Johnson (13:30):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nick Clason (13:33):
Yeah. I cut you off. So I was gonna try and let you finish what you were saying. No, but I was trying to make the point that that was, that was, we both proved the relationship. So that's, if we're right again, like if we're saying discipleship has that relationship, then it's possible.

Matthew Johnson (13:45):
Exactly. And then on top of, okay. So if we define discipleship as, okay, I'm having a relationship with somebody and then I'm walking them through their relationship with Christ and I'm teaching them how to share Christ and live Christlike content is usually a huge key part, part of discipleship as you. And I know, I mean the amount of times I've been given a book by a mentor or, you know, mm-hmm, , uh, Hey, check out this ebook or this resource or this white page or whatever it is, this blog about whatever I'm struggling with or whatever I'm like going through in my walk of life. Um, we already know it was all done virtually , so you can get a Kindle book, you can get an electronic book, an ebook, as I said earlier, white pages are all digital now, um, you know, you can send someone a blog through an email or text message. So there's no reason why in my professional opinion that you cannot do discipleship totally virtually, but also in a hybrid approach.

Nick Clason (14:49):
Well, and to your point, right. Content in the great commission, Jesus said, baptizing them, all these things. And they said teaching them to obey everything and teaching, I, I think in my youth pastor opinion, I think sometimes we've made teaching the only component of discipleship and divorced that from some of the relational stuff. But if there's a relation, an established relationship that's already taking place, then that teaching or that mentorship or that whatever that content is, uh, that all can exist digitally. Yep. And I think that the, the unique advantage that we have as pastors and or church leaders is that we're actually already in the content making business. Yeah. You, you said a stat yesterday to me in the office about content marketing. What,

Matthew Johnson (15:48):
What was that? Yeah, so content marketing costs 62% less than traditional marketing. And it's,

Nick Clason (15:54):
What's an example of traditional marketing,

Matthew Johnson (15:56):
Um, ads, TV commercials, radio commercials, um, billboards. Um, so

Nick Clason (16:05):
62% less cost.

Matthew Johnson (16:07):
Yep. So 62% less cost and it's three times as effective dang. So when you hear that stat, you go, okay. I have a church budget, so I don't have a lot of money. And I also don't wanna run commercials for my church. That's always kinda weird, but, but I could also create, you know, a blog about why discipleship's important and that's gonna be three times as effective anyways, as me putting an advertisement out on Facebook about, Hey, come to our discipleship class. Yeah. Why would you not do that?

Nick Clason (16:43):
Yeah, because at the end of the day, like whether you wanna call it marketing or evangelism or reaching people, like that's ultimately what we're all trying to do. Like this idea of waiting into this hybrid world is because all of us have a desire to help fulfill the great commission of Jesus. And we can walk into that space digitally in free and sometimes cases free borrowed spaces, like, uh, social media platforms or whatever, and create and offer some of this content marketing type stuff and, and reach people with, uh, the teachings of Jesus. Yep. Which, I mean, gosh, man, I have to, I just feel like if the apostle Paul is alive today, like I don't think he would be abandoning the, the means of digital that was available to him. That's available to us now. Yeah. Right. Cause what was he using then he was using paper and pen, which is his way to communicate with churches from a distance.

Matthew Johnson (17:42):
Exactly.

Nick Clason (17:43):
And because he chose to use that medium, we've actually been able to capture those and put those into our Bible and we still use them and learn from them thousands of years later. Yeah. Um, and so had he not used the means available to him then that wouldn't be that wouldn't be even possible for you and I today. And so we can help kind of facilitate that as churches. Like that's part of, we're all, like I said earlier, we are already in the content making business. And when we're in that like laser tunnel vision focus of create a sermon for Sunday morning that's content mm-hmm . So how could we, what are ways that you see that, that could, that kind of stuff could be repurposed, um, or like, Hey, we're church, church budget, limited staff, whatever. How can we repurpose some of this content to offer teaching and discipl ballistic resources for the people that are attending our churches.

Matthew Johnson (18:38):
Yeah, absolutely. So good, easy thing you can do is you take your sermon, you find main topics that you guys like to talk about. So let's, as an example, let's say anxiety, depression, love, and, um, hope like let's say we had those four topics that we're thinking of as a category of shareable content. Cause we know people are searching for those four things. And then, um, take your hour or 30 minute sermon, find a two minute clip that talks about love, cut that out, make that part of your love category, your anxiety, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Now I have content that's based off of these four topics that people are searching for. And that we know people are struggling with. I have short form content, you know, minute and a half, two minutes, maybe even less that I can share with people. And I can repurpose all that content on all our social media.

Matthew Johnson (19:31):
So you can start with YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, um, and even take the audio of the entire sermon and make a podcast with it. Now you have five content channels that you're putting content onto that is targeted towards people that are looking for certain topics. And what that does is now you've created your digital platform. You're building trust with your congregation. You're also reaching people that are not being reached and it's all done by stuff you've already written and you're planning on presenting to your congregation. So it's not really extra work other than you have to slice and splice everything that you've got.

Nick Clason (20:14):
So like, is there, um, would you then say, even if you took that the audio of a sermon or something like that, uh, would there be value in taking that audio to a place like rev.com, getting it transcribed for a few bucks? Um, and then you could post the actual, uh, words like the actual, the it'd be an entire manuscript essentially of your sermon, um, on your website and then that would add to increased searchability.

Matthew Johnson (20:45):
Absolutely. Yeah. Right. All words are now search terms on your website that you just added for your sermon mm-hmm and rev, you know, uh, I don't know a little cost of rev, but I know a lot of the cost of these are like 80 cents a minute. So doesn't usually cost that much.

Nick Clason (21:02):
Yeah. And rev is, cheaper's like 50 cents, if you do like the, the bot one I'll see. Great. Yeah. You know, so it's got some, yeah, it's got some errors that you'll get with it. Right. But the fact of the matter is like it it's still gonna produce most of your words or if you're already a manuscript style, preacher, just copy and paste that.

Matthew Johnson (21:18):
Yeah. And make that downloadable. And also now you have another piece of content where here's the host note or here's the pastor notes from the week. So , mm-hmm,

Nick Clason (21:27):
mm-hmm yeah. And you can do that. Uh, like, so one of the things that, that we were doing in our student ministry is we had a weekly, um, weekly, like YouTube show that we created, which sounds so crazy. And so not to get caught up in the weeds of that, cuz you might be thinking like, what the heck are you talking about but we basically had have like decentralized small groups. Um, and so, uh, we would use a video and we created just a show out of it. We'd use a video to, to supply the content for our groups that are meeting in living rooms or on campus or whatever, all throughout the week, every week had a theme. And then of course every week had a teaching topic. And so what I would do as a social media person on our student team was I'd look at the week from Sunday to Sunday.

Nick Clason (22:13):
And I would just do all kinds of different stuff that was both promoting and talking about the theme. So if it was like sports week, we'd do like sports trivia stuff like on Instagram stories. And that would help sort of like remind what the theme is or whatever. But then once, once the show dropped on Wednesday, we would use, uh, pieces and clips of that content that would be on like Instagram reels or TikTok. Um, we would have recaps, we would have like photo recaps, like all kinds of stuff. Right? So like you can almost do that same thing with like a Sunday morning experience. If you're in a sermon series on the fruit of the spirit and this week was the love week mm-hmm you can, you can splice all that stuff up into every day, a recap of the sermon or something like that. On Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, um, you're posting the audio, you're posting the manuscript. You're putting all that stuff out on your website and all of that is just repurposing content. Exactly. So if you're, if, if I'm a pastor and I'm hearing this strategy, my, my rebuttal to that would be okay, but like my people already heard that on Sunday morning. So all is all of this. Just gonna be like a retread of that information. Like don't they want new content.

Matthew Johnson (23:30):
No um, some people are gonna want new content, but I will. Okay. I'll challenge. I would challenge you. Okay. Ask your congregation after you're done. What did, give me remember everything I just said or what you also get is I get this a lot in our comments and on, uh, talking to people when we're at church, what was that thing that, um, PT said again there, um, it was so good. Like see that's the content. And if I post that, it becomes shareable. They'll share it with their friends. Mm-hmm and that's the whole goal is you want people to spread the word of who you are. Yeah. And the best way to do that. Who Jesus. Yes. Who Jesus is. So the best way to do that is to use the content that you're creating that is shareable. Um, and that's just gonna spread the word and it doesn't matter if they've heard it already, if it's already shareable and especially if it was it powerful, cuz they're gonna share it again and they're gonna like it again. And mm-hmm, also in four weeks, they're gonna forget so

Nick Clason (24:32):
Well. And, and you know, again, think about this. We talked about this in our last podcast, but you version, what if you were doing like a series through the fruit of the spirit and like on Monday or Sunday at church or something, you're like, Hey, let's all read this you version, plan on love and scan this QR code or whatever. And as a church, let's read it together. Let's comment on it together. Let's build one another up and then let's come back next week and we'll do the joy week, you know, or whatever, whatever that is. And so even in that, you can make whatever you are that that's unique, different custom content. It's under the same like umbrella topic. Right. But then you can, so if you were at church on Sunday and you are one of those faithful people that is at church four weeks a month, uh, which is definitely out of the norm, there are ways to make it where it's not just so repeatable.

Nick Clason (25:26):
Yeah. But you're right. People, people forget. So, so if, despite, despite what we think, right? Like despite if we agree or disagree that, that discipleship online discipleship in a hybrid world is even possible. It's what generation Z is looking for and asking for mm-hmm and to your point, they are, uh, they're here. Yep. You know, they are, they're graduating college now and they're the type of people that you're going, that your church is gonna be looking to reach one day or another. Because if we don't, if we don't, they will not be in our church in a couple of years, if we choose to ignore reaching them. And that's a terrifying thought. But the fact of the matter is if we don't start catering some of what we're doing to the generation that's up and coming, they will, they will choose to not be a part of our churches anymore.

Matthew Johnson (26:22):
Yep. Yeah. And something we also gotta remember is they're gonna be having kids. They're gonna raise their kids, not in the church and then their kids raise their kids, not a church. So it's just going to be this ripple effect that we definitely need to get ahead of and start thinking about. And we also know that seven, I think it's, what is it? Seven outta of 10 people come to Christ before the age of 18. So yeah.

Nick Clason (26:48):
Yeah. That, that stat alone is why I'm a youth pastor.

Matthew Johnson (26:50):
So yeah. So like, you know that we have to reach them where they are when they're young and we need to reach them because they are getting old so mm-hmm

Nick Clason (27:00):
And I think the terrifying thing in all of this is that it's breaking down our standard archetype of what church has looked like and what, what, uh, I don't know what we're used to and, and how we staff. Yes. You know, like we staff to produce and program a weekly service. And so talking about what we're talking about really changes the game.

Matthew Johnson (27:31):
Yep.

Nick Clason (27:33):
Like it really, it's a completely different, um, it's a completely different look. Exactly. And, and no one's really doing that. You know, there's not really a good model out there. And to, to your point, one of your favorite things is the church tends to lag behind about 10 years and so marketers are already on this content marketing thing and churches are just now starting to, starting to think about it and talk about it. Yeah. And so what are the, like, you know, you're, you're in charge of marketing and our church. What, what are the types of things that you need on a marketing team or the types of pieces of content that you'd be looking for in order to, to do something like this in order to run this sort of like model that you're looking for, um, in a, in a effective way, because like I said, I think it's a little bit where it's gonna require us to redeploy some of our, our current resources, you know, including staff and, and dollars and hours spent on certain tasks or whatever.

Matthew Johnson (28:31):
Yeah. So all the video content we've talked about is something that I think everyone should start doing right now. And it's just great content in general. Um, on top of that, so I'll give a more advanced example of something we just did, which was, we decided that we wanted to create an ebook for our community. That was a 101 re 101 things to do with your kids this summer. And Nick, you were a huge part of creating the ebook, um, with like writing the content and everything. And the whole point of this ebook was to reach out to the community and give them a bunch of ideas of stuff. They can go out and enjoy this summer. Mm-hmm, all through all the different neighborhoods and communities around us. Now that ebook did way better than I ever expected it to. Um, I knew it would do well cause eBooks tend to do well, but people were starving for this kind of content. So we had over a thousand downloads in two weeks with over 400 of those being brand new people that don't go to our church. so that's crazy. Um,

Nick Clason (29:37):
So let's, let's talk real fast. Okay. I don't wanna, I don't wanna like out outprice anyone or anything like that, but like how much you said it, it was 39 cents.

Matthew Johnson (29:47):
Yeah. 39 cents

Nick Clason (29:48):
Per, per click or something like that

Matthew Johnson (29:49):
Per conversion. So it was 39 cents per person to download the ebook.

Nick Clason (29:54):
So then what did we, do? You know what we paid in that in totality?

Matthew Johnson (29:58):
Yeah. So we paid about, um, total with both ads that we ran about $600 and that was, um, two different ads. One was a lead gen ad, which was 39 cents. And one was an awareness ad, which that's a whole different ball game we can get in, in a different conversation.

Nick Clason (30:17):
Sure, sure. But I'm just saying, cuz you know, you say something like that, like that has over a thousand downloads. I, I would imagine most PS are salivating mm-hmm after something like that. Yep. Right. Um, and so, and it's not like $600 might sound expensive, but in the land of Facebook marketing, you're saying that's one of the cheapest conversions you've ever seen.

Matthew Johnson (30:37):
Oh yeah. Absolutely. If I'm under $4 on a conversion, I'm usually happy so when I've hitting since of a conversion, I'm ecstatic. Um, and on top of that, like the, we saw the ebook directly correlate to probably a higher number in our vacation Bible school this year. So cause we add vacation, we added our vacation Bible school and the ebook is something we can do this year. And we had our biggest vacation Bible school since COVID and maybe ever in the history of the church. So mm-hmm

Nick Clason (31:09):
so that's a, that's a thing that's easy that you can do for families. Yeah. I'm like, Hey, here's something to do for your kids. What does gen Z want?

Matthew Johnson (31:20):
Oh, that's a good question.

Matthew Johnson (31:23):
Fin Z wants spiritual content that entertains them. Um, you and I know that gen Z is asking some of the deepest questions I've ever heard spiritually. They do not stray away from hard conversations at all. Mm-hmm like some of the stuff I get asked by gen Z, I would've never asked in my entire life to my youth pastor or to any mentor I had and they just blatantly come out and ask it and they also want to be entertained. Mm-hmm what I mean by that is it's not like you need to be this clown delivering your content. Um, what I mean,

Nick Clason (32:07):
No, I, I would even argue as like student pastors, like that day of the, the gregarious, like attractional, I'm gonna swallow a goldfish. Yeah. Like that's kind of a turn off to

Matthew Johnson (32:19):
JY now. It is. Yeah. When I say entertain, I mean like tell the content, well, be communicated, be open. Just tell a good story. As you're talking through this and not like, Hey, this is a story, but like the story structure and we should do a whole episode on what I'm talking about when we talk about that. Um yeah. But would, uh, so content that, and then do that content that's short, short form and usually video. So the more video content you can create for them that is geared towards their heavy questions. Like don't stray away from answering some of the hard questions that, you know, might politically arise either side of the aisle, you know, that's okay. Cause those are the questions they're asking and you need to give them biblical truth when it comes to that. So,

Nick Clason (33:10):
And that's, that's scary to do as a church to create a video. Yeah. And, and put that out there. Yeah. Cause you, it does become a little polarizing.

Matthew Johnson (33:17):
Yeah. And you have to obviously weigh in on, um, way the pros and cons of like releasing that content. But I will also argue that if you have a bunch of like negative comments or negative, like pushback from a video, you need to like stray into that. And we've seen that companies that weigh into the negative and reply to negative comments have a higher trust value with their consumer base.

Nick Clason (33:46):
Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. It's actually, it's, it's interesting that you say that, cuz just recently, um, we got, uh, like our curriculum for our student ministry. Yeah. And one of the series was like called how to friend. Um, and that's what we were gonna launch our like small group cycle with. Yeah. And in our discussion I was like, Hey guys, like, I'm fine with that. I think that's a good, a good like thing to talk about. But I came across this study, um, on like mental health, um, from, from some friends of mine that work at a church here in Chicago that called the chapel. Um, and so I was like, you know, I, I think that might be a little more, uh, what we should talk about or what maybe our students are needing to hear than another series about how to be a good friend.

Nick Clason (34:35):
Yeah. And I think a lot of times that's sort of the approach we take in student ministry or in ministry in general is like, Hey, here's a, here's a series on, on how to display love. Yeah. Like, yeah. That's yes, that's important, but you're right. Like they're, they, they already want to love, they're one of the most inclusive generations that we've ever seen in our entire lives. And so if that's the case, like we, we like, we don't need to, we don't need to Wade into that. We need to Wade into the, the mental health conversation. We need to Wade into the gender conversation. We need to wait into the fill in the blank. The stuff that really matters. Not that, or at least it really matters to

Matthew Johnson (35:15):
Them. Yes, exactly.

Nick Clason (35:17):
So, yeah. Yeah, man. Well, this was a great conversation again. Appreciate your time. Appreciate everyone listening. Any last final thoughts Matt, as we, uh, wrap this conversation up.

Matthew Johnson (35:29):
Yeah. I would, uh, challenge. Whoever's listening to this to go create one piece of digital content. This, if that's a blog, a new, a one off video, whatever that looks like and figure out how to deliver that to your people.

Nick Clason (35:46):
Yeah. That's good. That's a good challenge. All right, everyone. Appreciate you listening, please. Please give us a little subscribe a rating. If you found this helpful share with friend on or online, appreciate you guys and.

Episode 002: The Best Practices for Your Church Digital Platforms

Nick Clason — Thu, 28 Jul 2022 04:00:00 -0500

Nick and Matt discuss specific and individual best practices for Digital and Hybrid Ministry. Because there are a lot of platforms out there, what should we actually be doing on those platforms? Like Church website, Church App, Instagram, Facebook or TikTok? And what should we do about Discord?

Follow along on twitter - twitter.com/hybridministry

Or find full transcripts and show notes at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

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TIMECODES
00:00-01:15 Announcement and FREE giveaway
01:15-5:26 The New Normal of Church
5:26-13:03 Best Church Website Practices
13:03-15:55 Should our Church get an app?
15:55-20:00 How can our church use YouVersion?
20:00-24:57 Facebook best practices
24:57-29:38 Instagram best practices
29:38-32:00 TikTok best practices
32:00-34:42 How about Discord?
34:42-36:51 Texting Best Practices
36:52-38:13 Outro and Conclusion

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
Think that they were gonna, uh, keep it going. I thought that I thought that was gonna be it.

Matthew Johnson (00:07):
Yeah. That one more season left.

Nick Clason (00:09):
Yeah. So it like when they did, which it's like the first season that they've never resolved, you know? Yep.

Matthew Johnson (00:15):
They said like, it was the first time they've never done that, so

Nick Clason (00:18):
Yeah. Well, Hey everybody. Welcome back to, uh, hybrid ministry, the podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason alongside my good friend. Matt Johnson. How you doing this morning, Matt?

Matthew Johnson (00:34):
Doing good, man. I can't complain got a cup of coffee and uh, it's a beautiful Friday morning.

Nick Clason (00:39):
Yeah, we're ready to roll. You know, what's so fun. Uh we were in a meeting yesterday about this exact topic, like in our, in our church talking about the new normal of church, you know, a little bit. Um, yeah, which I think is, is interesting cuz uh, I can't remember how you said it, man. It was so good. You were saying like the way that we've done church for so long, it, it has to shift and it has to shift into a hybrid type of world. What, like what do you mean by that? What did you, what were, what were kind of your like thoughts going into that statement?

Matthew Johnson (01:16):
Yeah, so we, the church as a whole has had two main philosophies over the last, let's just say 60 years, it's gone back obviously much further than that, but uh, here it's been straight to seat. What I mean by that it's like find someone on the street, they can come to church and they can take a seat in for Sunday service. And then probably since the internet age, I'd say probably in the last 15 years, maybe 20, I, that might be pushing it, let's say 15 to 10. Cause the church is, um, always a little bit on the back. End of everything is sight to see. And, um, what that means is like, Hey, you come to our website and then you can come to our church, but now we're in this new world, which what the heck is next for us. like, uh, what is, what is post COVID look like? What does this hybrid approach? And we know the church has to evolve in some fashion just based off of where technology is going. No matter how much we all say that we hate technology, this is the world we live in now. So that's really what I've been, just trying to figure out like where should we evolve?

Nick Clason (02:29):
Yeah. And I like, one of the best examples I ever heard of, of hybrid was like a department store. Um, I was, and, and I, it came to fruition for me a couple weeks ago and I was walking through, Lowe's like physically walking through the Lowe's department store. I was in person, all the things, but I couldn't find what I was looking for. And so as a typical millennial, instead of stopping and asking an associate where to find the thing, I downloaded the Lowe's app on my phone, searched it. And it told me exactly where to go. Um, yep. And so I used a digital tool in a physical environment and I think that's sort of what we're talking about is this, this hybrid approach. And I don't think either one of us is necessarily advocating for getting rid of everything. That's why I really like this word, this word hybrid, because it's, it's not either or it's both and

Matthew Johnson (03:27):
Exactly. Yep. And

Nick Clason (03:29):
So that's, that's what I wanna talk about today is what, what specifically can we do? Like let's get nitty gritty, get down to some of the, like specifics of some of these platforms and some of these best practices. And I think, you know, just shooting straight, like we have ideas and we have data to back up some of this stuff, but we don't have all the answers. And, and I don't think any church is really hitting it, you know, bating a thousand and hitting all these things a hundred percent outta the park either, you know? So like, yeah, same is true for us. So these are just things in our brains that are rattling around and things we wanna, you know, kind of try where we wanna start. So.

Matthew Johnson (04:09):
Yep. Absolutely.

Nick Clason (04:10):
All right. So let's just talk through like, um, LA on episode one, we talked a little bit about this. Um, but like if, if you have nothing, you know, um, is the best place to start, Matt, would you say like a website, like getting your own, your own domain, your own place that, that you own, that you're not on like borrowed social media space or anything like that, your own website, is that the best place to start? And then if so, um, what do you like, what are some best practices as it pertains to web these days?

Matthew Johnson (04:44):
Yeah, so I would say the best website could be one of the best places to start. Uh, I'm not gonna say it's like a blanket statement. Like everyone should start there, but I will say if you don't have a website and you have the means and, um, energy to make the website, you definitely need to get on that. And, uh, websites are so easy to make right now if you like square space and WICS, you need even WordPress plugins, like Elementor, um, make building a website very easy where you don't need to hire developers and have a huge upfront cost anymore. Um, your website, like we're saying earlier in the episode is, was originally like this, you visit our site and then you come to the church mm-hmm so site to see, um, it was more of probably a front porch approach, um, to the church, uh, as in, okay, I'm, I've entered into your fray and now I'm gonna come all the way in your house.

Matthew Johnson (05:51):
Yeah. The website now can function as multiple. And the first thing it's gonna function through for is I I'll call it your window. Um, and that's the sense that I'm just viewing in to what your church holds. And then I will decide just from the viewing in, if I even want to attend online, if I wanna check out your social, if I want to check out your campus. Um, so those are all the questions that you're your first time person is gonna be faced with. Um, especially as you're trying to reach lost people, the more approachable your website is the better because you want people to not feel intimidated to come check you out. So when I think of a website, the first thing I always tell everybody is 90% of what you wanna put on your website. You don't need to put on your website.

Matthew Johnson (06:46):
um, the reason I say that is cuz everyone thinks they just need to put everything in the kitchen sink on their website. Um, and Donald Miller who, uh, is just kind of become a marketing guru, um, has really coined this term of like story branding, your website, story, story, branding in general, your, um, your church, whatever your company is. But I always love his idea of the website, which is a lot of the junk that you put on your website belongs to the junk or on your website. Hmm. So what that means is like, it all be, you can put it on your website, but it should not be easily accessible and it should be at the bottom of the website where if you wanna find it, you can find it, but that's not what you're trying, you're there for. So when you go to someone's website, the first thing I should see is what you want me to do.

Matthew Johnson (07:38):
Um, and that's going to vary church church. So, uh, at our church it's uh, Hey, attend online right now or, um, here's the church services mm-hmm um, is that the best course of action? I don't know. Um, there's a lot of philosophies, uh, and really you should only have one decision. So if you're whole idea says hyper approach, I would just say a 10 0 9 should be your first call to action. If you had that capability mm-hmm so you gotta simplify your website, get rid of the junk on your website and then make your website purposeful. So what are you trying to tell people as they learn about you? Like I said, your window, it's like a window shopping. So it is really easy, Nick, for you or I to go and Google type in Christian Church near me and find probably 50 churches within 20 miles of us.

Matthew Johnson (08:39):
Mm-hmm and we can go and look at all these churches, all their beliefs, who they are, where they're at, what they're teaching and we can window shop used to not be like that. You used to have to go into church or the window shopping was more, oh, these people have this service time, so I'll go check them out. now I can see everything about you. Uh, I can see everything your pastor has probably ever said. So you need to be very cognitive of that as you're building out your window, your website on what is it that you're trying to communicate about you about your church?

Nick Clason (09:16):
Yeah. And then like the, the, the nerdier you get into that, right. There's things like search engine optimization, words and titling and, and things like that. That you're also gonna want to start to explore at least get a handle on as you're building those things out. Right?

Matthew Johnson (09:34):
Yeah, absolutely. So then you can start once you define what you want your website to be, you can really get nitty gritty with, um, how we're gonna title everything and how you're gonna lay it all out. Um, what the proper course of action is, how you leading me to those calls to action. That's all super important stuff that you'll like, like a story brand is a great option to kinda learn how to do that. Um, but also just being able to like use Google trends, you just go to Google trends.com. You can type in like words that people are searching. And if you really wanna start like investing in some stuff, you can look at like SCM rush or href, which are both about a hundred dollars a month where you can actually look up search terms that people are using for your website specifically, and also what Google is weighing highest.

Matthew Johnson (10:27):
Hmm. Um, and what that's gonna do is, uh, if you, if you're like, okay, we're at the point that our church is growing, but we want to grow more and we want to reach new people. That's your best option to do that? Cause Google it, it's wild to think about what Google did. So, um, back in the days of when Yahoo was around, Yahoo was literally ran by librarians. Like you had a room full of librarians that would archive pages. So you'd go to Yahoo, you type in, um, churches near me or whatever, or, uh, um, looking for, you know, a Christian sermon. And it's only what the librarians have gotten through and archived. Um, that's to obviously change now, but that was back in the early days of the internet. And then Google came around and said, Hey, we're gonna make this automated through search terms through our search engine. And those will be weighed differently. And, uh, algorithm is constantly changing. So the best way for you to find out, to get more recognition is for you to find out what people in your area are looking for. Um, and then just make your website, your content targeted towards them.

Nick Clason (11:41):
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's website, um, let's talk about app apps. Yep. So, you know, like if you and I are using our cell phones, most of us are interacting with people on our cell phones, through various apps. And so do you think that that's a platform worth looking into worth investing in for a church? I mean, it's, it feels like it would be a pretty hefty cost. And then, you know, if it's not a hefty cost, that means that you're probably getting a pretty basic, uh, service from a company that your app is gonna look, um, much like any of the other apps that are out there. And, uh, it's gonna look, it's gonna be very similar to, to your church's website. So couldn't, we just use a very like phone friendly, mobile friendly website. That's gonna, that's gonna play well on people's cell phones, as opposed to trying to get them to adopt an entire app or like, talk, talk me through this. What, what should we do with that? Should we do anything with that?

Matthew Johnson (12:45):
Yeah. Great, great question. So, um,

Matthew Johnson (12:52):
Yes, I will say the best course of Ash action is to just make, um, a mobile friendly website. Uh, so yeah, my professional opinion, the app should really be an interactive way to engage with your church, your congregation, your content, whatever it looks like. So it's not a front porch anymore. Like you're involved, like you're, I want people to come to our church and download our app so they can be as directly tied with everything we have going on. Hmm. But that's not for the wide people. So I'm not going out to people on Google or on our Facebook pages and going, Hey, download our app when I'm just trying to get them to come check out who we are like, that is, that's a deeper step. Like I'm asking you to put me on your phone forever. Mm-hmm I would say, yeah, mobile friendly website is the best place to start.

Matthew Johnson (13:55):
Then let's say you are a larger church and you're really trying to figure out what's next for your digital platform and what you should do online. Then I think the app is a great course of action of different things you can do on it that are not what your website does. mm-hmm so that's the key. The app cannot just be an extension of your website. Just have a mobile website at that point. Like your app should be, Hey, this is where all our small groups are facilitated at. Hey, this is, has a interactive map for us or, Hey, this is where all our content is. Or we do our prayer studies and there are Bible studies that'ss own world that is not directly correlated to your website.

Nick Clason (14:36):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, so moving on this, one's one of my favorites. I'm not sure if I've optimized it yet, but as a youth pastor, this is one of the things I love to try and, uh, both create, uh, but also challenge our like small group leaders and students to participate in. Uh, it's the U version Bible app, you know, they have a, they've built in some kind of social media components to it recently. Um, and one of my favorite things to do, and it was a thing that, you know, I, I think, uh, really came to a height during the pandemic and stuff was reading like devotional plans together. And I thought that was a great way to, to do spiritual practice in the other, um, hours of the week that weren't like our programming time for like small groups to do together, whatever, uh, obviously, you know, like the people at life church, they're the ones that put you version together and are continuing to run it and everything. Uh, are there any things that we can do as a church to optimize those better? Um, or, you know, think about them creatively to, uh, get our people to be en engaging with the Bible, uh, in that way, through that platform.

Matthew Johnson (15:54):
Yeah, absolutely. I love you version and what the team at life church has been able to kinda accomplish with that platform. Um, I think a great use of your version is finding content that is relevant to whatever you have going on in your church or as you, and I know if you wanna start getting, you know, a little crazier developing content for you version. So, um, both are great avenues, but I would just start with curating content on new version that it can actually facilitate conversations and you can create prayer request in it and, uh, um, be going through studies together. And it's just a good way to nurture and continue to have people think about your church other than on a Sunday. Yeah. And that's a big key of everything we're talking about is how do we get people to, you know, be engaged with church with your church, not more than one day a week, and as we know, more than one day a month, so,

Nick Clason (17:00):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. That, and that's interesting that you say that whole thing about, uh, once a month, that is, that's what we're seeing, right? One in every four, uh, an average attender or an engaged attender is attending one in every four weeks, which to your point is what you're saying is one, one once a month, which is why I think this hybrid approach is so like important. Like it's such an important thing because if we are only discipling people on the weeks that they attend church, that's 12 times a year, 12 hours a year, there is nothing in my life that I care about that I'm only giving 12 hours a year to yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so if faith is important and faith matters, it needs to happen more often. And yeah, like all of this right is an ownership step that we need to try and help facilitate for those people that are attending our church.

Nick Clason (18:00):
But the reality is is that you and I, as people who work at churches, uh, we've only made that priority a thing that we do once a week for our weekend services, you know, and we're just trying to, to challenge everyone to think outside of that box. Exactly. And to say, okay, great. Like we're already doing that. We're not throwing that baby out with the bath water, but what are the other ways in which we can disciple our people through the means and the, the avenues that they're already using through their cell phones and through online and through digital. So I think in a, in most cases now I wanna talk social media for a minute because in most cases, I think when people come to this idea of hybrid or digital, that's the first thing, right. That comes to everyone's brain is like, oh, so you're Spanish again, social media. Um, and that's true to an extent. Um, and so let's talk through some social platform. So the first one is, is Facebook, what is best practice on Facebook?

Matthew Johnson (19:04):
So Facebook you're gonna be reaching people that are probably 35 and older mm-hmm , um, usually, um, it's actually probably even older now it's more in your forties or older. So if your congregation's a little bit older, like that's a great platform to start navigating on. And what the real big use of Facebook I can see now is the Facebook groups, which we had talked about. Mm-hmm , um, in a earlier, earlier episode. Um, but really just getting some Facebook's groups going that you can actually create community that have people interacting with each other, and it's not a sole reliance on you. Um, also we just know Facebook has some massive plans with, you know, becoming meta and what web three looks like. So I just think it's always gonna be a part of our Zeki, no matter what. Um, and I think it's gonna probably morph into more of this web three platform, which then you start getting crazy with like virtual reality and, you know, the metaverse and stuff. But I, I would not worry about that yet. Um, I would just stick to, let's create some Facebook groups. Let's do, uh, let's have a strategy behind when we're posting content and why we post content. Um, I always say start with the why of what you're doing. Um, and if you're just using Facebook to promote stuff, stop doing that. ,

Nick Clason (20:30):

Matthew Johnson (20:31):
Just, let's be, uh, more creative and cognitive, uh, what people want and promotional stuff is just gonna fall in deaf ears. So, uh,

Nick Clason (20:40):
So let's, let's, let's actually talk about that for just a second, because I think that's, that is a, a standard default for a lot of churches is, um, just create, uh, like it is, it has like another billboard or another avenue to announce your things. Um, so if you're not, if we're in the event business as a church a little bit, like, you know, it's not events more spiritual than an event, but yeah. Like we're hosting an in person thing, uh, that feels a lot like an event. What are we, what should we be doing then on social media, on Facebook, if we're not posting it as events, what are things that we can be putting on there that people are actually gonna want to engage with?

Matthew Johnson (21:23):
Yeah. Great question. So this is something I've been wrestling with, um, from the marketing world for the last few weeks, actually. So I think we, as people that are communicating, we, uh, we need to get away from the industrial realistic nature of marketing. So what I mean by that is we're trading like everyone, like their cog and this machine of communication. Um, when we know every single person is unique and different. So what is the content that people are gonna engage with? Well, the biggest content that anyone will engage with is story based content mm-hmm . So tell the stories of the people at your church. Hmm. Tell the stories of what your church has been doing for your community. Not about, um, it doesn't only have to be about, Hey, join us Sunday, but like share when you guys are going to the food pantries and serving share when you guys are having block parties and, uh, the life change that people will experience at your church because we know that's what people wanna be involved with. We know that isolation, loneliness, and anxieties at an all time high and that people are searching for community mm-hmm and relationships. So share those stories and you're gonna get a lot more engagement than just, Hey, join us Sunday, or Hey, check out this worship that we did. Um, yeah. That stuff is fine, but that should not be the only thing you do.

Nick Clason (22:52):
Yeah. I think, uh, I mean, think about this, right? Like why do you get on social media? Like mm-hmm, I get on social media to be entertained, uh, to laugh or, you know, maybe to be inspired. Yeah. But I don't get on there to learn about events. Yep. Almost, almost never.

Matthew Johnson (23:11):
Exactly.

Nick Clason (23:12):
And so, you know, and I think, you know, we're gonna get to in a second talking about TikTok and Instagram, uh, but I think that's Mo that's where a lot of people are kind of going to, you know, it's like that short form video content, cuz it's, it's funny, you know, that's that's I, when I share something, I share something that's funny, you know, exactly. Or maybe a little bit inspirational, but for the most part, something that I think is funny so let's, let's move that way then. So let's talk about Instagram. Um, Instagram is obviously owned by MEA, which is owned, which is the parent company of Facebook and all that stuff. So should your Instagram strategy be similar to that of Facebook? Should it be identical to that of Facebook? Because you can do that right. Where you can post on Instagram and duplicate that exact same content over to your Facebook page. Um, is that the best practice for Instagram right now? Or what are you seeing out there?

Matthew Johnson (24:04):
No, so you definitely can just, you know, post straight from Instagram to Facebook, that's the easy way out, but you'll probably see one of your platforms as doing better than the other. And the reason is, is cuz it's drastically different demographics on both platforms. Like I said, Facebook is older, you're gonna have, let's just say 40 and up Instagram is gonna be your millennial. Yeah. They're starting to get weary on the, on just the Instagram algorithm. Um, so people are using Instagram. They're not liking as much, they're scrolling more. Um, so that is, uh, something you also be need to be cognitive of. So really your Instagram content should just be strong piffy storytelling content that is meant to either entertain or make me feel. And honestly the win on Instagram right now is short form video.

Nick Clason (24:58):
Yeah. And that's very TikTok adjacent, correct?

Matthew Johnson (25:03):
Yep. Yep.

Nick Clason (25:04):
So what's so is there best practice then on if you're posting content to TikTok that's a minute or under 30 seconds or under, should you also then be posting that same thing on Instagram reels should or should those be individual pieces of content?

Matthew Johnson (25:22):
So right now, as we're recording this, I would say post your TikTok content on Instagram with your TikTok watermark on Instagram, cuz the TikTok demographic is gonna be your 18 to 25, 18 to 30 year olds. So you are still hitting a very similar demographic. Um, and you can kind of kill two birds with one stone. Uh, but TikTok should be your more entertaining, fun stuff. Um, I will say it's pretty hard to go viral inspirational on TikTok. It's a lot easy to go viral on Instagram with uh, inspirational. So, Hmm.

Nick Clason (25:59):
So that's interesting that you say that before we, before we jump straight to TikTok, um, Instagram feed posts, Instagram story posts. Are there still value in those or are you saying double down on, on like reels and abandon those other things?

Matthew Johnson (26:17):
I would double down on reels and stories. So stories is still, um, a massive driving factor for people on Instagram. You'll actually see most people get on Instagram. And the first thing they do is scroll through, um, as many stories as they can. Now, what I will say to help you on Instagram is to go live on Instagram more. Mm um, so why I say that is cuz Instagram pushes that content higher still and you can get on front of people's feeds on their stories quicker if you go live. So if people aren't liking your content or they're not scrolling through your story, going live will help you get in front of their eyes more.

Nick Clason (26:59):
Now you now back to the, you talked about posting with your TikTok watermark. Are you, are you saying do that as a, as a way to promote and raise awareness that you do have a TikTok account?

Matthew Johnson (27:13):
Yep. So right now that is what they're recommending is that you post from TikTok to Instagram, with the TikTok watermark, cuz it shows that you're on TikTok and also Nick, you and I both know, um, content takes off quicker on TikTok and usually it takes off more virally on TikTok before it will Instagram. So I'll be scrolling through Instagram reels and I'll see a TikTok that I saw last week that already had gone viral. Yeah. And it's just cuz talk's algorithm is just next level crazy, which also has a lot of concerns behind it. But we could talk about that earlier.

Nick Clason (27:51):
Yeah. It's so interesting that you say that though. Cuz even, uh, even in my own experience, like I'm looking right now on our church, social media and everything that was first posted to TikTok and then posted to Rios has almost no views on, on Instagram, but it's doing well over on TikTok. And so that's been a, that's been a little bit of a thing to try and kind of navigate. So let's talk TikTok then for a minute, should we be on it? It feels like it's a place we sh you know, a lot of church people are maybe even scared of it. And so if we've been trending younger is TikTok the youngest of all the platforms that we're talking about.

Matthew Johnson (28:30):
So we're gonna talk about today. Yeah. It would be the youngest. So your demographic is gonna be that, um, 18 early or later gen Z to, uh, you know, 30, 25 to 30. So okay.

Nick Clason (28:46):
And, and best practice on there is like, we've been saying short form video. You can do trends, you can do maybe inspiring inspirational content, um, and also just humor. Right?

Matthew Johnson (28:58):
Yeah. TikTok is really good for that humor aspect. Like you can definitely do some inspirational stuff. Um, and it's also the hashtag feature of it is, uh, a great way to find other like minded tiktokers. Um, like I said, the algorithm of TikTok is very effective, but I also do understand the reservations behind TikTok with, uh, just everything behind it. So, um, but I will say that is where your younger audience is and if you wanna be reaching those people, you need to go there. Unfortunately.

Nick Clason (29:29):
And the thing that's so crazy that changes the AB the absolute game with TikTok is even as like, I look into our like specific analytics, I was looking at them yesterday. Um, the majority of, uh, people who watch your videos, um, at least ours are not followers of ours, right? Mm-hmm, , they're, they're people that discover us from like the four U page.

Matthew Johnson (29:55):
Exactly.

Nick Clason (29:55):
Which is, you know, so much different than the way that we've treated social over the years. And so in a lot of ways is TikTok, can it be an evangelistic tool? Can it be like a way to reach people that aren't connected to your church? Is that a good strategy for it? It feels like sort of the opposite of what we've been talking about with going hybrid.

Matthew Johnson (30:15):
Yeah. You definitely can reach people with TikTok and you just need to have a strategy behind where do you take someone from TikTok to this hybrid approach. And that's what, we're not seeing a lot of that right now of like, okay, you get people watching the videos on TikTok, but now what

Nick Clason (30:31):
Mm-hmm

Matthew Johnson (30:32):
Mm-hmm so you gotta give them that next call to action and take them to your church website or to your online platform, whatever that looks

Nick Clason (30:38):
Like. Yeah. All right. So this one's up for debate a little bit discord, is that a social media platform? What even is discord and why, why did you tell me to add it to our outline?

Matthew Johnson (30:51):
Great question. So discord is, um, I think you can probably consider it a social media platform right now, but what I love about discord is the aspect that you can create very curated, focused groups. Um, there's a lot of really cool stuff you can do on discord, and you can create different breakout rooms. Um, you can create different channels that people can talk about different stuff. So, uh, I, uh, have been involved with a couple of new Christian discords that people have been wanting me to help them, um, get going. So what you can do in discord is like this one that I'm in is like, there's a whole prayer request, channel Bible, verse channel, David stories, channel general chat. And it's really, um, and you can just break it down more and more and more like, you can create your, you, if you wanna do a sports league in it or whatever, you can do that.

Matthew Johnson (31:50):
And, uh, um, there's like a lot of fun stuff you can do in it. What's good about it is that you're getting all like-minded people in that discord together. Mm-hmm so you can actually talk about, Hey, we have X, Y, and Z going on in youth group also, here's where all our prayer request is. And here we're talking about fantasy and, um, you're getting your community built together in a very cohesive platform. And I will also tell you, is that your young people in your church are on discord? Hmm. Um, most of them are, especially if, uh, so like during the pandemic something I heard all the time, as we were trying to get everyone to go to teams and zoomed and, um, trying to do these virtual events, uh, there was all these kids that were telling me, why are you guys not just using discord?

Matthew Johnson (32:37):
We're already on it? Mm-hmm . And I was like, and I laughed, cuz I've been on discord for years, but I've always thought about it as a gaming thing, but it's more than a gaming thing. Now it's now a chat functionality that you can create your community in. So if you wanted to put your youth group in there, you could, if you wanted to put your women's ministry in there, you could, and learning curve is really easy for it. Hmm. And you have a captive audience that is interested in your, in your group, your culture and what you're doing. So whatever you communicate they're gonna be engaged with.

Nick Clason (33:09):
Yeah. That's interesting that you, that you say that the learning curve thing, cause I think that's probably everyone's biggest reservation, right. Is the introduction of a new platform. How hard is it gonna be to figure out? So, um, yeah. Great. All right, Matt, last one, text messaging. Uh, I recently heard that the open rate on a text message is 99%. Is that true?

Matthew Johnson (33:35):
Yeah,

Nick Clason (33:36):
That's crazy. So that has to be a platform that we should be using as churches, right?

Matthew Johnson (33:43):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so texting is the best, one of the best ways to do communication period. Um, we know people reply to text messages and open text messages, um, way more than email as you just talked about with open rate. Um, also, uh, if people give you, if they trust you enough to give you their number to text, 'em the trust level with you and your church, um, is extremely high, which that tells me immediately is, oh, I can communicate, uh, differently with these people. Cause I've already built that trust bridge with them.

Nick Clason (34:23):
Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. And again, to, to the point that we're making with all of this, right? So if we go back through web and app, you version social media platforms, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, discord, and text messaging, every single one of those things exists in you and my pocket every single day. Yep. And so the, our people from our church are carrying the access to all of these things with them every single day of the week. And so I think as a church, it's a miss, right? If we're only, uh, talking to them once a week on Sunday, but then if we break that down, even more understanding that people are only coming to church once a month, we're only talking to them 12 times a year. Why would we not try to create connection, create discipleship, content, create inspirational things through the things that they're carrying around with them every single day of the week.

Matthew Johnson (35:30):
Exactly.

Nick Clason (35:31):
So, so that's what, that's the idea. Uh, this was very nitty gritty and, uh, you know, appreciate Matt, all of your marketing knowledge and demographic studies and everything that you have, man, cuz uh, I know the reason that, uh, the reason that I love having you on this is because you are just for me an absolute wealth of knowledge. So I hope that, uh, as everyone else who's listened to this, able to pick your brain, um, or just hear some of these things about all these different platforms is advantageous to them. Um, beneficial. So I appreciate, I appreciate that, man.

Matthew Johnson (36:08):
Yeah. Don't thank you. I appreciate it. It's been a blast and I hope everyone's going, uh, get something out of this. So

Nick Clason (36:14):
gosh, I can't imagine that they didn't so good. Hey again, thanks everyone for hanging out. Uh, feel free to subscribe. Give us a rating. If you find this helpful, share it with a friend. Um, you can follow along on Twitter at hybrid ministry and online at hybridministry.xyz Uh, but until next time we will talk to you all later.

Episode 001: How My Church can Reach Millennials and Gen Z in 2022

Nick Clason — Thu, 21 Jul 2022 04:00:00 -0500

Millennials and Gen Z are increasingly harder and harder to reach. And add to that the shifting trends of church attendance. The honest truth is a lot of us as pastors aren’t exactly sure what to do. And pair with that all the difficulties that have come post-covid. How can we enter into this digital and physical world and reach Millennials and Gen Z with a more Hybrid approach to our ministry?

Follow along on twitter - twitter.com/hybridministry

Or find full transcripts and show notes at http://www.hybridministry.xyz

TIMECODES
00:00-0:58 – Intro
0:58-3:35 - Does Digital Ministry matter post-covid?
3:36-7:09 - What could a Hybrid Model even look like?
7:09-9:09 - The faltering faith of younger generations
9:09-13:43 - Inspecting Digital openness amongst Church attenders
13:43-16:29 - How to get started in the Digital Space
16:29-18:24 - How to expand teaching and preaching into the digital space
18:24-20:00 - The future of short-form video content
20:00-21:24 - The difference between a sermon and teaching online
21:24-22:23 - Short-form content is very digestible
22:23-23:44 - The advantage we have as church leaders in the digital space
23:44-32:50 - How to get started
32:51-35:28 - Fulfilling the Great Commission through Digital means

TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
Years ago, right? Uh, so 22. Yeah. Wow

Matthew Johnson (00:05):
Man.

Nick Clason (00:05):
And I didn't do the beard, right?

Matthew Johnson (00:07):
Yeah. You were doing the chin strap back then.

Nick Clason (00:09):
Yeah, I had that for oh gosh. And it was like, not very much.

Matthew Johnson (00:13):
no, , it's like just subtle it up.

Nick Clason (00:19):
Yeah. And now I've got this gigantic thing.

Matthew Johnson (00:23):
I love it.

Nick Clason (00:25):
Well, Hey everyone. Welcome to hybrid ministry podcast. On today's episode, we are gonna talk about how your church can reach gen Z and millennials here in 2022. Um, I'm your host, Nick Clason, along here with my friend, Matt Johnson, Matt, how you doing?

Matthew Johnson (00:43):
Doing right? It's uh, a little early. I see the sun rising right now of the sky, but it's actually very peaceful and I'm loving it.

Nick Clason (00:51):
Yeah. You have coffee going yet or did you just, yeah. Okay. Smart. Smart.

Matthew Johnson (00:55):
Got some cold brew right here.

Nick Clason (00:57):
Nice. Okay. So, uh, I wanna talk about this idea of hybrid, you know, and, uh, like, like we said, in the pilot, there's a lot of, there's a lot of thought. I think amongst church leaders about, um, digital being kind of pitted against physical, um, and Barna actually came out with the study recently. I'm sure you've seen this because you're the one who told me to look at it. uh, that said, um, a solely digital church expression is wanted by only about 9% of Christians. So, um, when you read that, do you feel like that's a, do you feel like that is a push towards the, the physical expression? Like what would be your response to that?

Matthew Johnson (01:40):
Yeah, when I read that, it there's, I think there's a lot there in this study that Barnett did, but specifically this stat, what stood out the most about it is that when COVID happened, the answer was immediately, well, everything has to go a hundred percent digital or we're staying a hundred percent physical. There was no conversation about an in between at all. And you rooted uprooted people from their, you know, their daily lives, their weekly habits of every Sunday morning, I wake up and I, you know, go to my local church down the street or whatever to, okay. I gotta sit in my living room and watch church. And there's a huge disconnect that you started feeling with that. So, um, I think that's why digital church is drastically dropped and you can kind of see those numbers at, in the church in general. Um, and I mean, the stats says it all only 9% of, you know, Christians want only digital, which is not very high when you look at, you know, Christian numbers. So, um, but what it does say is there's still people that want that. So that's something we have to also keep in mind as we go forward.

Nick Clason (02:54):
Yeah. And if you, if you read on it actually says, um, so only 9% say they, they only that, and I think that that word only is what's key there. Right. Because it says one third express that some sort of hybrid option would suit them. Well. Yeah. So that's, that's 33%. Right. And then as you, as you inspect deeper into the generational gaps, millennials and gen Z are just as likely to choose a hybrid option as they are to choose a physical option. So 40 versus 42%. So like that, and that's the wave of the future, right? Yep. So, so what in your mind, like, what does, what, what does a hybrid option even look like? Or do we know, or do we know yet?

Matthew Johnson (03:40):
I don't think we have so a solid answer, but I think we have a lot of, um, balls rolling at different churches around the nation and you can kind of start seeing what a hybrid option looks like. So, uh, a good example, some of good examples that you could think of that. I mean, everyone talks about life. Church, life church is a great digital presence. Mm-hmm, , you know, they're live online. I mean, pretty much every time I go to their website, this says we're live right now. So , um, which is honestly why, uh, life church has probably been able to hit the millennial demographic better than most big mega churches have been able to.

Matthew Johnson (04:23):
Interesting because they have had that option where, Hey, I can go to church. Um, life church has locations everywhere now, but also I can just watch online. And that's the key to this. What we're talking about is like reaching these younger people. So even millennials who we are starting to see have kind of been a forgotten generation when it comes to the Christian world, the gen Z, who, um, we're starting to realize are going to be forgotten. And we have no idea how to talk to gen Z. Uh, how do we get these younger people involved with church as much as they are involved with other aspects of their life. Um, and if we can have that hybrid option, which really in my mind, we need to have an offering that they can do as much as possible as they can in the digital realm of your church, but have the reliability of coming to the church for all the major stuff. So crisises, um, community questions, mm-hmm, , uh, like, uh, conversations. Cause we know, especially you being a pastor, you know, you can have a way better conversation with somebody if they come have a coffee with you, then if they just tweet at you.

Nick Clason (05:49):
Yeah, for sure. So, well, and, and a step that you always remind me of is 51% of gen Z have said that they prefer online only as a discipleship option. Yep. And that's literally half can't get more. Yeah. I mean it's a little more than half, but so it's like, that is important and that that's half of our demographic. And so if we, as a church for sake, uh, any form or any sort of digital, uh, we're missing half of a generation based on what they say that they want. Yep.

Nick Clason (06:22):
And so we gotta, we can, we don't have to do that. We don't have to pursue after that, but we just have to know what the cost of that is gonna be. And the, I, I just think that the church is in a spot where they're the church being the capital C church, like in person, church, attendance trends are different and I get it cuz digital costs money. And so with attendance, a lot of times follows money. And so you gotta make sure that you have what it takes to, to staff towards these things and to pay for these things and have the budget for these things. Right. But yep. But uh, if we don't, we're just gonna continue to reach people as they are aging, older and older as gen Z, millennials are finding their worth meaning and value over on TikTok or on YouTube.

Matthew Johnson (07:10):
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, you can already see this trend of the younger generation's faith faltering drastically, like the Gallup study that you and I just talked about where, you know, uh, we went from 78% of 18 to 35 year olds had faith in God to now we're down to 68% and that's in what, six years. So that is, um, crazy, crazy aspect that we're not thinking about. And I'm telling you, um, we can keep doing church the way we've always done it, but the church is just gonna consistently be behind. And there's the running joke in the church world. And the church world is always five years late. You know, we always, you know, oh yeah, we're finally gonna add a guitar on stage. And everyone's like, well, rock music been around for 15 years. So, um, that's just the running church joke. We're a little slower to adapt, but we can't be slow to adapt in this climate because every day that we take our time on adapting is faith is all deteriorating. Hmm. So that's something we gotta keep in mind.

Nick Clason (08:20):
Well, and I, and you know, I wanna be clear like you and I like, we're not people that are like over here trying to like crap on the church. Like, oh, we love the church and

Matthew Johnson (08:29):
Yeah. We work at a church, so

Nick Clason (08:31):
Yeah. And we think that the church is like, I believe that Jesus made the church, his primary number one, uh, right. Yeah. Way to way to reach the world, you know? So like I think there's good things out there. I think there's good para church type ministries. Good, good people like on TikTok and YouTube trying to do things, but like the church should enter into this space, you know, and not just leave it up for some 15 year old influencer, you

Matthew Johnson (08:56):
Know? Exactly. Yep. Yeah. The church is not going anywhere. I wanna be clear about that. Like the church is solid, we're strong, it's the church just needs a little bit of a, a shift in, you know, it's something that everyone is talking about currently.

Nick Clason (09:09):
So, so Barnett had an interesting thing in their study, um, and they called it digital openness. So that's church adults who were defined as having digital openness. And so these are sort of the five kind markers of that. So I just wanna run through them. And then when you, and I can kind of think about, 'em talk about 'em the first one is, um, uh, a church adult with digital openness sees the value of attending an online church service. Um, they also think that churches should use digital resources for spiritual formation or discipleship purposes, post pandemic. They think that churches should use digital resources for gathering their people together after the pandemic as well. Number four, they say either hybrid. So both a digital and a physical or a primarily digital church will best fit their lifestyle after the pandemic. And they're open to attending new kinds of online gatherings that are unfamiliar.

Nick Clason (10:07):
So like we said, this is the type of, I feel like, I mean, you're millennial, I'm a millennial. Like these are things that like both you and I would hold as values, like having, having an option to attend something. Like, I guess the starkest picture I have of it. Matt is a couple weeks ago in our youth ministry. I was in the room. Um, and we were meeting in the room with our teenagers and leaders. And um, one of my leaders had a question about an event coming up and rather than her tracking me down, uh, she pulled up our website to try and find an answer to it. Um, and she, but she couldn't. And so we're in the room and she's on her online device trying to figure it out. And she's trying to, she's trying to get answers to it until finally she's like, Hey, like she's flagged me down as I was walking by.

Nick Clason (10:57):
And she's like, I can't find the answer to it. And I was like, oh, well that's cuz we didn't put it on there. Um, so that's our fault, but I just, again, right. Like that's an example right there of where digital meets physical. Like that's the type of world that we're living in. And I don't think that in the church in general, I don't think we're thinking about it often in that type of way. I think we're like trying to replicate a physical expression onto digital mm-hmm and I don't know, I, I do think that people are tired of that post COVID, but I do think that there are other avenues or other, um, other ways that people can try, uh, that churches can try to enter into that kind of hybrid space. So mm-hmm um, and another thing I thought was interesting, I'll read through these and then wanna kind of chat and just pick your brain as, yeah.

Nick Clason (11:43):
These, these are some of the options, um, of things that people thought could be like a, a digital expression or like a hybrid version. Right? So teaching slash preaching, one-on-one prayer, small groups, all of this in like the hybrid space, worship, prayer visitation, confession children's ministry, youth ministry, adult ministry, the number one option on there was teaching and preaching. And I find that so interesting that that was the thing that, that people thought was the number one option, um, of them to be able to, uh, experience something digitally mm-hmm . So for some reason I said this to you the other day. So for some reason in the church, the, the, we determined the most effective way to communicate theological truth was through a pastor preaching in a pulpit mm-hmm , that's no longer the most effective way. And I think for a lot of us in church, like that's a little bit of a terrifying proposition, cuz that, that means we're getting rid of something that is age old and, and someone we've been doing for years. And I'm, I'm not, I'm not even sure I necessarily want to do that either. But the fact is like, we, we now have the internet, we now have podcasts. We now have all kinds of other ways that we can communicate theological truths. So what are some of those ways that you could see the church stepping in to sort of that hybrid space and some of those, you know, arenas. Cause I think if, if you're the average person listening to this, you're like, okay, all these thoughts sound great, but like what should I do?

Matthew Johnson (13:21):
Yeah. Where do I, where do I start at? Yeah. So a big thing I even wanna highlight is this is just church adults that are saying this, so this

Nick Clason (13:29):
That's

Matthew Johnson (13:29):
Good point. Yeah. This isn't even like our agnostic, the atheist, the spiritually questioning people at all. This is just your people that are in your congregation right now are saying they need this mm-hmm um, so when I, uh, some good examples of some easy things that you can start doing today, um, that do that, don't take a lot of time and if you wanna, they can grow and they, they can be a good foundation building block for you. So, uh, first of all, teaching and preaching with record, just throw a camera up, record, whatever you're teaching your preaching is honestly. Um, we do know if you're trying to reach your church. People like honestly, all you could do is just throw that as an audio and make that a podcast and put that on your website and say, Hey, here's pastor bills or, uh, you know, pastor Toms, you know, sermon from this last week or whatever, something super easy that you guys can start creating the digital presence.

Matthew Johnson (14:34):
But some other easy stuff is like, just create a Facebook group for your church. Um, just, uh, or if you have like multiple different ministries in your church, create Facebook groups for all of them, invite your volunteers into there, invite the people that, you know, wanna be involved with those groups and start cultivating those relationships in a setting that is designed for that. And, uh, you're gonna realize most people, especially, uh, higher millennial up are gonna be very open to going into those Facebook groups. Now, when you're trying to hit gen Z and stuff, you're gonna have to get a little more creative with what your digital presence looks like. Um, cuz we know, first of all, they're slowly going off of Instagram. We know they're not really involved on Facebook anymore. And really the world that's they're they're in is like TikTok and Snapchat mm-hmm um, and those avenues are just vastly different, but I mean download TikTok and start making some fun videos. If you fill up to it, uh, there's some easy wins that you could start doing right now. And then if you really wanna start like strategizing, okay, what can we do? Um, as a church here is like digitally, uh, do you have a church bulletin that you give out every week that you're still printing, make that digital, just put that online. You can still have it physical, but give a digital option for it. Um, yeah,

Nick Clason (15:58):
At least let the people be able to find it on Tuesday night. Exactly. If they have a question about the, the Wednesday event coming up tomorrow,
Matthew Johnson (16:05):
Exactly like have, have all that in mind for any resources you're making and I guarantee you're making this stuff on your computer, so just upload it digitally instead of printing it and make a easy avenue for people to access that stuff. So, um, those are some quick easy wins. And then if we wanna get more complex, you know, there's thousands and thousands of things we can

Nick Clason (16:29):
Start to do. Yeah. Well, I mean I'm thinking, right. So if in this list here that I read already teaching preaching 1 0 1 small groups, uh, 1 0 1 prayer, small groups, worship visitation, confession children's youth adult ministry, the number one option out of that was teaching. Yeah. So we can deliver, um, our teaching yes. On a Sunday morning in a large group gathering of some sort, but both through, like you're saying ripping down audio, maybe throwing up a camera and creating it, uh, a video to put on YouTube. We can take that content though and repurpose it. And so, especially as we're talking gen Z, um, and millennials, uh, you know, I remember you telling me the other day, like everything on Instagram and Facebook is trending towards Instagram, uh, and Facebook reals. Yeah. Because they're trying to keep up with TikTok. Yep. And so this short form video is kind of king right now, at least at the time of this recording.

Nick Clason (17:27):
And yeah, we in the church are in the business of content creation. We create content every single week. So what if we just took and parsed out elements of our sermon from Sunday morning and just shot that in some sort of short form video content, like either leading up to the sermon or, uh, coming after the sermon, operating as some sort of like recap or something and just shooting it in with a little bit of a different mindset, same content, take all your study, everything you did, all the passages that you studied and did exegesis on. And then just bring that into like a one minute short form video and start flooding some of those places. I think that's a way that you can, you can take your digital or I'm sorry, your physical expression and bring it out into a digital world and kind of lean into that. That hybridness would you, what do you think about that?

Matthew Johnson (18:22):
Oh, I can't agree more and even speed of short term content, Instagram believes in it so much that they literally, this week as we're recording this updated Instagram, that every video is now real. So they have said,

Nick Clason (18:36):
I saw that yesterday. Yeah. I, I saw, I was like what? That's a real, yeah.

Matthew Johnson (18:39):
Yeah. So they're, they're saying this is where we're headed and it's to compete with TikTok. Um, so yeah, take your teaching and your preaching and just splice that up into some one minute service, uh, one minute clips and stuff. And let me talk, it's super easy to be able to do that. Um, I mean you can do that an I movie that's already on your iPhone or you can download a free video software, like black magic that is very easy to do on, I know it's a crazy name, black magic, but don't get scared by it. It's just a company and, uh, you can, uh, you know, start cutting up video today and honestly start, uh, growing your digital presence there, um, very easily.

Nick Clason (19:23):
So you, yeah, so you can either record your sermon and take clips off of that. Um, but I, I personally think if you don't, you know, if you don't have the technology for that, you don't have a camera set in the back of the room yet, and you're just starting in this, like all start recording audio, like the best camera that you have access to is the one in your pocket. Yep. You know, the, the, the, the phone now they say has more computing power than the computer that landed us on the moon. Oh yeah. Uh, back with NASA and, and Armstrong and everything like that. So just get your phone out and record short five short form videos as like, just snippets of your sermon, you know? Yep. And the difference, you know, Matt, like I was telling, I was talking about this last week with some of our team, like the difference between a sermon and a sermon.

Nick Clason (20:08):
You keep, you kind of build to like a climax and then you like have like a grand reveal at the end. Um, uh, social media is different. Like you gotta hit, you gotta hit your, your topics straight away. Um, and not, not hold it back. And so for preachers, sometimes it's a little bit of a different, uh, philosophy, right. But if you get on TikTok and you start exploring, you'll learn kind of that archetype pretty fast, you know? Yeah. That's anyone who's good and performing well on there. They're probably using that, that strategy. Yep. So have a compelling hook, um, and have some compelling text there. That's gonna stop the scroll because what, like, what's the average watch time on TikTok,

Matthew Johnson (20:50):
Like right now.

Nick Clason (20:52):
Yeah. I don't know. Like it's, it feels like if it's not good, you're just gonna swipe right. Past it to the next

Matthew Johnson (20:56):
Thing about, yeah. I mean, usually the average watch time is about seven seconds, which is why TikTok seven, second videos typically get pushed higher in their algorithm.

Nick Clason (21:05):
Yeah. And even as a church, you can even take some sermon content and put that in a seven second video. Right. Like you can, you can do one of those videos that has like way too much text to read in seven seconds. And so it's gonna force people to rewatch it, which is also gonna tell the algorithm like, Hey, this is a good video show this to more people.

Matthew Johnson (21:25):
Yes. Yep. And something else that's super important about that short form content right now is the fact of how digestible it is. Yeah. So when you're reaching millennial and gen Z and we're, let's think of like youth leaders, you're mostly gonna be reaching you to gen Z right now. Um, you're going, they're gonna want that short, digestible content that they can share with other people, or they don't have to think wrong about at all. So that content doesn't have to be the super polished piece. Mm-hmm I, I want to like, make sure that we're pretty clear about that. Like if you look at YouTube, um, and what people are watching, like most of these guys are just, you know, taking their iPhone and they're recording themselves and then they post it and it's get millions of views now. So, uh, that as long as the content is solid and it's short and digestible, you're gonna be totally fine.

Nick Clason (22:23):
Yeah. And I, I think that's the piece that, that also, so, you know, number one, we are content creators by nature in the church. And then number two, uh, the level of Polish, uh, has really diminished. In fact, I think some, some things that are so polished are sometimes a little bit of a turnoff mm-hmm to gen Z and millennials. And so both of those things bode well for you and I, because I don't need a several thousand dollars camera aside from the one that's already, probably on my phone. Right. Yeah. And I don't, I don't need to re like, gosh, man, I can't imagine if I was like a washer and dryer company trying to do social media. Like, what would I do? But I'm a church. Like I have, I have hundreds and thousands of pieces of content on my hard drive right now of old sermons. I've preached, like I can dust those off and I can turn those into short form video content and use it as a way to, you know, to reach people. So, yeah. Um, and it's not even, it's not even bad, like, it's, there's a lot of like serious or like thought provoking things on TikTok. It's not just dancing and, and trend videos. Like those things are on there for sure. But you know, like you can, you can, uh, find an audience there on, on TikTok, super easy by doing some type of stuff.

Matthew Johnson (23:42):
So, absolutely. Yeah.

Nick Clason (23:44):
So, um, if, if Matt, if, um, you were someone's, um, marketing consultant and they were saying, Hey, we have nothing. You know, we don't even record our sermons. We don't have a camera in the back of the room. Um, what are the, what was be three to five things that within the next like month, you could see a church maybe start to start to take steps towards, to enter more into this hybrid world to reach millennials and gen Z.

Matthew Johnson (24:10):
Oh yeah. So let's see, you have no digital presence at all. You're a church of, you know, 300, let's say a hundred. Yeah. Small plant. Um, just getting going. Uh, I was actually just talking to a church that has 50 in Denver. Um, and, uh, some of the stuff I would tell you is, okay, so create a Facebook page, start there, get a Facebook page going and a Facebook group going for your church. And just,

Nick Clason (24:38):
And by the page, you mean the, like the business, the thing so that you could be able to run ads off that if you wanted to

Matthew Johnson (24:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Creative Facebook business page, um, for your church, that is just a place that people can come like and make comments and you can start posting content on. So Sunday morning, pull out your phone, take a photo of the outside of your building and just say, come join us and give me the service times or whatever, like start, just start, um, pushing stuff on to digital platforms. And I also say create a Facebook group. Um, whatever that group looks like for you, I would really strategize and think about what you're trying to do with it. Um, don't just create a Facebook group just cuz oh, you know, these guys are telling me to create a Facebook group, like think about what that group should be, but really that group should be a place that your community can come together and start talking to each other. And there's not a lot of work you have to do for that. You create the Facebook group, you come in and put a post and let people facilitate those conversations. And if it gets, uh, little rowdy or crazy, you can start, you know, facilitating it. But I highly doubt that's gonna happen as you're getting going. Um,

Nick Clason (25:46):
Well, and you can even do like, and like you're saying like strategize, right? So you can be like, okay, every Monday we're gonna post like the, the song set from Sunday or something like that. Exactly. And then every, every Wednesday we're gonna do a Facebook live at noon and the pastor's gonna jump on and do a devotional. Then every Friday we're gonna do like a funny Friday and we're gonna post like a meme or something like that. Exactly. It can be that skeleton of a, a strategy because in a group you're hoping that everyone else kind of drives the conversation. And so you don't even really unlike Instagram or unlike TikTok, where you have to continually kind of feed the content yep. A group you can let the other people be like, be creating that

Matthew Johnson (26:24):
Absolutely like post post questions. Like what can we be praying for you for this week? Uh, what's going on in the community this week? Is there any volunteer opportunities like really get that conversation, just going, just spark the conversation and sit back and let everyone go. Um,

Nick Clason (26:39):
Okay. So get on Facebook,

Matthew Johnson (26:40):
Get on Facebook. Yep. And then, uh, another great thing is to start, like we said, making short term video, short term video content, and I'm, if you don't have a smartphone, which there's probably not a lot of us out here, that'd be listening to this podcast right now that don't have a smartphone. Um, so pull out your smartphone, take your sermon notes that just look at your sermon notes and find the minute chunks in there that you like and record that real quick vertical. Just shoot it vertical, throw it on your Facebook. Um, you can from Facebook post it strike to Instagram. Mm-hmm and there's not a lot of work there for you and that's gonna start getting your digital presence up too. And I, what I say is like, find those minute chunks, or even if you are like, you, you could speak into this more too, Nick, cuz you're obviously a pastor, but like, you know, you write your sermon and you go, okay, I know I'm gonna summarize this in a minute. I have my synopsis of what this is like record that though that on camera.

Nick Clason (27:45):
Um, yeah, honestly, I'm like it's, it's, , it's a little bit of a bummer how I can like preach a message for 30 minutes and then I can take my outline and basically summarize it in five minutes and do a five part series on TikTok. And I'm like, oh, what was I doing up there for 30 minutes?

Matthew Johnson (28:03):
You just have more stories of illustrations and

Nick Clason (28:06):
You. Exactly. And then the other thing you'd say is try and start recording your, your audio so that you can have a audio podcast. Would that be one of your things or is that not even as high on the list for

Matthew Johnson (28:18):
You? Um,

Matthew Johnson (28:21):
So the thing is, is if you have a audio set up at all at your church, so usually you, you know, it could be the most basic soundboard in the world, which you probably have right now you can throw an SD card and their press record while you're on stage. So I would say, yeah, go ahead and make your audio content a podcast right now, as long as you have that soundboard. Um, but I'm, if you have a mic set, as long as you're not, you know, using a mic, like a karaoke mic, you should be able to do that, but don't go buy new equipment yet until you're ready for that next step. Cuz here's what happened during the pandemic and all these guys I talked to as I was consulting with churches and figuring out how to help them go digital or okay, I'm gonna go buy these three Sony cameras.

Matthew Johnson (29:07):
We're gonna have this three camera set up. Uh, we're gonna have some students in the back, you know, try to figure out what we're doing. Hey, uh, Matt, what is all the equipment I need? And my answer always was like, first of all, okay, if you had the budget for equipment, let's talk, but don't go get the top tier of anything. You don't know where this is headed for you guys. So yeah. Tweak your time. Um, and really have a figure out that strategy, not just the, oh, everyone's doing this, so I need to do this before you go do it. So, um, yeah, get that podcast going, uh, the audio for that podcast or whatever that looks like for your congregation or your group going, that's gonna help you digitally. Um, and then, you know, another easy thing to do is, like I said, you know, post that short term content on like, uh, Instagram and Facebook. Like if you are already starting to post social and stuff, like start posting doesn't necessarily like not graphics per se, but like just take a photo outside and go, how can I be praying through this week?

Nick Clason (30:14):
Yeah.

Matthew Johnson (30:15):
Or, uh, take a photo of worship this week and go, Hey, what worship songs would you wanna see this? You know, this semester or whatever, like you can start asking those questions that are related to those options that you were talking about earlier. So, um, you can really start figuring out what it is that people are looking for with your group.

Nick Clason (30:35):
Yeah, well like we recently doubled down in our student ministry on, on TikTok and on reels. Um, and we actually pulled back on some of the more formal, uh, or traditional styles of posting like on Instagram or whatever. Yeah. And we just used, uh, we're just using our short form video content sort of supplement in those areas. So for example, like I was trying to post a story a day and I was trying to post something on the Instagram feed a day and I scaled those back cuz I saw those starting to underperform a little bit mm-hmm um, but I saw our reels and our TikTok content starting to skyrocket. And so I was like, all right, instead of five things a day or five things a week on the feed, let's just move it down to three, make it really quality content, like get a nice photo.

Nick Clason (31:23):
Um, and then the rest, um, of everything and just throw, throw that short form video content. So again, like we were saying, depending on when you're listening to this at the time of the recording like that right now is everything. Yeah. And the beautiful thing is that doesn't require a lot of, you know, like software knowhow, like you can edit right in the app, like TikTok has a decent editor. So does reels, like you don't have to have Adobe premiere pro or any video skills. And like you said, you have, you have the ability to just shoot that kind of raw on the cell phone. That's sitting already in your pocket. So yeah. And what was that back to podcasting? What's that HubSpot stat? You said about uh, uh, the average adult and podcast.

Matthew Johnson (32:10):
Yeah. Listenership. Yeah. I think it's 84% of people listen to eight hours of podcast a week. And I know I'm one of those guys, like, you know, I've, I've always listened to podcast. You don't even realize how much is I listen to when I run, I listen to, when I drive, I listen to it. When I'm cooking, I listen to it when I'm doing housework, like I'm always listening to, you know, my podcast. So, um, you wanna be where people are. So as you start seeing where your people are, know that to go for them and you're gonna hear people go, well, I don't listen to podcasts. Remember we are, we're here talking about millennial and gen Z. They listen to podcasts. yeah, I promise so

Nick Clason (32:51):
Well, I think that's a great way to put the, I think great way to end it. You said go where people are, cuz that's what this is about. And if we look, if we pull this all the way back from, from the great commission of Jesus, which is to go out and make disciples of all nations like it, when, when we dovetail that off of the acts one eight, uh, commission, where he says, you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea Samaria, and then ultimately to the ends of the earth, it's this ripple effect. But it starts where you are. So find where the people are. Yeah. There's, there's a quote that said theology is all the more important today because there are so many messages being delivered into your home that you need to be able to determine then what is actually true? that quote came from CS Lewis in the 1950s.

Nick Clason (33:37):
Yeah. When the advent of television was coming into the, to the American and, and world's home, right? Imagine the, the importance of that same idea, that same quote now with not only television, but internet, YouTube, TikTok, cell phones, advertising, all the things like that. Like the, the time is now like the amount of untruth that's out there. And so the world needs you, the world needs your church and your people and millennials and gen Z. Like they, they do, I, what I've seen as a youth pastor, they do care about spiritual stuff. Oh yeah. They just don't think the church wants to talk about the spiritual stuff that matters to them. Yeah. So don't be afraid to Wade into that space because oh yeah. Because relationship equals influence and so you can help to start build that through, uh, some of your digital channels.

Matthew Johnson (34:30):
Mm-hmm yep. Totally agree.

Nick Clason (34:33):
All right. Well I think that'll do it for us, uh, today. Any, any final thoughts, Matt?

Matthew Johnson (34:39):
No, just go get it and just start, you know? Yeah. Go, just start. Um, your digital presence. That's all I can say. Like that's the thing that we, we can sit here and talk to strategize, but just go shoot your first video. Go create your Facebook or whatever that looks like. Just take that first step. You guys got this.

Nick Clason (34:56):
Yeah. Well, Hey forever. You update on this. Follow us on Twitter at hybrid ministry, uh, website is hybrid ministry.xyz because of course.com was taken and uh, and uh, yeah. Be sure to subscribe, share it with friends. And uh, we'll talk to you guys next time.

Matthew Johnson (35:14):
Hey, thanks guys.